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On 9/30/2020 at 5:49 PM, trt131 said:

There is an unaffiliated club in Pittwater that runs races including a popular twilight series.  They profess to use the racing rules of sailing.  A number of boats from affiliated clubs race with them in this series.  A major insurer has made it very clear that they will not pay claims for damage suffered during these races.  However many boats from affiliated clubs continue to rock to the start line.  It can only end in tears.

All ziz non effizated fun zailing must be stopped! 

Adolf Hitler – V.I.P Typology

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6 hours ago, LB 15 said:

All ziz non effizated fun zailing must be stopped! 

 

What these people have to have a fucking good hard think about, is what the fuck are they in a club for, if they do not compete under RRS?

They can just head out and start their races according the GPS time at the navigation beacon of choice using COLREGS.  Why pay fees to any cunt?  They have their own insurance anyway! (supposedly)

Some clubs do not host RRS racing for the following reasons;

  • the people in charge never really understood RRS anyway
  • they do not want to be the "Organising Authority" on the NOR, scary shit
  • they would have to organise a boat to do the start and finish, calc resluts and no one could be bothered to do that
  • they are only interested in 'Sales' not 'Sails'.
  • they have to tolerate the 'Sailing Section' to get a few more Bar Sales, but they won't even stump up for a measly bottle of rum for a prize, that has to be donated by someone with a vested interest

So yeah, take out RRS and the required affiliation ... you got fuck all left of anything that I value.  Just a bunch of old cunts who, when it's their turn to win, throw out the cushions, get the boat bum cleaned and brag about the great victory they just had.  Proof positive that every other race they should have won was just bad luck that's all.

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7 minutes ago, Couta said:

Or....we could all go and do a little "cruising in company" turkish style.......

https://www.facebook.com/oguz.ozoktay/videos/10224578587870910

A flood or storm did that?

Do you think it will buff out?

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16 hours ago, astro said:

What these people have to have a fucking good hard think about, is what the fuck are they in a club for

So they can eat in the restaurant, wear silly uniforms and feel superior.

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On 10/1/2020 at 7:57 PM, astro said:

Nice, impressive story mate.

I have done a bit of blue water racing, it bores the fuck out of me.  So many ocean racers fail when it comes to around the cans one-design stuff.  They don't get it.  That's why a lot of ocean racing skippers really value dinghy sailors as trimmers or even on the helm for waves.

The only part I like about ocean racing is the sheer pleasure of coming off watch and crashing in the clothes I had on into the hot bunk.  Fucking best sleep  have I ever had.  It's called the doing the Black Snake, going the bed with your clothes on.  Doing 'The Tiapan' is when you still have your boots as well.  I have done that.  One race most of the crew and the skipper were incapacitated with the sickness, did a double watch on a rough night, the sleep was so awesome, boots on.

The rest you can have.

I have done a bit of round the cans racing, it bores the fuck out of me. At least when ocean racing you end up in a destination, instead of triangle, sausage, triangle, dodge the ferry and try to get the kite down quickly as the finish boat is hard up against the shore.

So many buoy racers fail when it comes to around the ocean stuff. They don't know when to button off, blow up all the big chutes and end up sailing DDW with a jib, bitching about how uninspiring ocean racing is...

The rest you can have.

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5 hours ago, Jason AUS said:

I have done a bit of round the cans racing, it bores the fuck out of me. At least when ocean racing you end up in a destination, instead of triangle, sausage, triangle, dodge the ferry and try to get the kite down quickly as the finish boat is hard up against the shore.

So many buoy racers fail when it comes to around the ocean stuff. They don't know when to button off, blow up all the big chutes and end up sailing DDW with a jib, bitching about how uninspiring ocean racing is...

The rest you can have.

truth-hurts-doesnt-it.jpg

Anyone can stick some rags up, and point it where the navigator says.  How fucking hard is that?

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10 hours ago, Jason AUS said:

I have done a bit of round the cans racing, it bores the fuck out of me. At least when ocean racing you end up in a destination, instead of triangle, sausage, triangle, dodge the ferry and try to get the kite down quickly as the finish boat is hard up against the shore.

So many buoy racers fail when it comes to around the ocean stuff. They don't know when to button off, blow up all the big chutes and end up sailing DDW with a jib, bitching about how uninspiring ocean racing is...

The rest you can have.

Yep,  one of the toughest jobs is getting the bigger kites down when they are approaching their limits on the first couple of days of a race.

Everyone wants to go FAST, NOW.

Nobody is thinking that this might back off in a couple of days & the big kite will make a much bigger difference in the light stuff later than it does now.

That's why boats carry blokes with grey hair,  we have done the wrong thing enough times to finally learn!

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On 9/30/2020 at 5:49 PM, trt131 said:

There is an unaffiliated club in Pittwater that runs races including a popular twilight series.  They profess to use the racing rules of sailing.  A number of boats from affiliated clubs race with them in this series.  A major insurer has made it very clear that they will not pay claims for damage suffered during these races.  However many boats from affiliated clubs continue to rock to the start line.  It can only end in tears.

Can you expand on this? Which insurer, and under what clause of their policy can they refuse a claim? Have they communicated this with their insured owners?

NSW is interesting as if there is an Aquatic Licence (not sure in this case) then the rules under which the event is organised take precedence over ColRegs - there's nothing in the Act about affiliation, which makes me wonder whether insurance companies could say that RRS doesn't apply...

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25 minutes ago, mccroc said:

NSW is interesting as if there is an Aquatic Licence (not sure in this case) then the rules under which the event is organised take precedence over ColRegs - there's nothing in the Act about affiliation, which makes me wonder whether insurance companies could say that RRS doesn't apply...

See World Sailing Case 143.

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On 10/1/2020 at 7:57 PM, astro said:

The only part I like about ocean racing is the sheer pleasure of coming off watch and crashing in the clothes I had on into the hot bunk.  Nothing turns me on like the scent of another man and feeling the still warmth of his loins where he lay. Fucking best sleep  have I ever had. But only after I have pleasured myself in the dark.  It's called the doing the Black Snake. Doing 'The Tiapan' is when you still have your boots as well. We often take one boot off and jack off into it. I have done that.  

The rest you can have.

Gosh. I would sleep on the rail with your crew habits.

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14 hours ago, TUBBY said:

Yep,  one of the toughest jobs is getting the bigger kites down when they are approaching their limits on the first couple of days of a race.

Everyone wants to go FAST, NOW.

Nobody is thinking that this might back off in a couple of days & the big kite will make a much bigger difference in the light stuff later than it does now.

That's why boats carry blokes with grey hair,  we have done the wrong thing enough times to finally learn!

Yeah, I’ve been the young punk who got to drive for hours on end because I didn’t have existing shoulder injuries caused by tennis, home renovation or shagging the fat housewife next door. That time on the wheel was usual followed by “Right Junior. Fuck off up the front and get that kite down. And mind you turn the kettle on FIRST. Little prick that you are.”

 

I’ve also been the bloke who has counseled that 3 broaches in ten minutes “is fucking stupid, and we should get the bag off now before Billy destroys another one... AND we’re only off bloody Botany. Bloody Billy.”
 

Grey hairs have been ordered, but Australia Post has fucked up the delivery.

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3 hours ago, Jason AUS said:

I hate that. You order something useful, like an airsoft rifle or a box of chips and they drop off a Cartier watch instead. Useless bastards.

At least it wasn't a Rolex - normally u need to own and run a 30M supermaxi to get one of those

Oh, or a TP52 which is not *actually* a TP52

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21 hours ago, astro said:

See World Sailing Case 143.

Okay, so yes the insurance company can either disagree with, or ignore a Protest Committee finding - as has happened at my club. It can then do its own investigation and apportion blame. However that does not mean the yacht is not insured surely? It just means the insured does not get their excess back I would have thought. Just like if you were racing and hit a lateral mark, or a moored yacht - the fact you are or are not racing does not invalidate your insurance, it just means you are at fault and therefore don't get your excess back - unless I am missing something?

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16 minutes ago, mccroc said:

Okay, so yes the insurance company can either disagree with, or ignore a Protest Committee finding - as has happened at my club. It can then do its own investigation and apportion blame. However that does not mean the yacht is not insured surely? It just means the insured does not get their excess back I would have thought. Just like if you were racing and hit a lateral mark, or a moored yacht - the fact you are or are not racing does not invalidate your insurance, it just means you are at fault and therefore don't get your excess back - unless I am missing something?

No you are not missing much.

The intent of RRS is to avoid the courts.  Entering a race under RRS is a binding contract where you agree to abide by the Rules.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3.3. Acceptance of the rules includes agreement

  1. to be governed by the rules;
  2. to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under the rules;
  3. with respect to any such determination, not to resort to any court of law or tribunal not provided for in the rules; and
  4. by each competitor and boat owner to ensure that their support persons are aware of the rules.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So that means that if you thought you were racing under RRS, have a prang, then discover that you were not covered by those rules, you could be sued for various real or fabricated reasons.  Or your insurance company could decide you were negligently breaching the law (COLREGS) and decide not to pay you.

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48 minutes ago, astro said:

No you are not missing much.

The intent of RRS is to avoid the courts.  Entering a race under RRS is a binding contract where you agree to abide by the Rules.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3.3. Acceptance of the rules includes agreement

  1. to be governed by the rules;
  2. to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under the rules;
  3. with respect to any such determination, not to resort to any court of law or tribunal not provided for in the rules; and
  4. by each competitor and boat owner to ensure that their support persons are aware of the rules.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So that means that if you thought you were racing under RRS, have a prang, then discover that you were not covered by those rules, you could be sued for various real or fabricated reasons.  Or your insurance company could decide you were negligently breaching the law (COLREGS) and decide not to pay you.

Fair enough - thanks for the response. 

I remember having a meeting with the CEO of Club Marine a few years ago (he was looking at a high profile yacht i was helping to look after). I asked him a few questions about them using escape clauses, and his response was along the lines of : "yes we could probably do that, but we wouldn't last long if we did". Let's hope in the event of claims as we have discussed they do the right thing!

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You just might find, some insurance companies, in some instances don't give a rats arse about the protest and findings, as they say, there seams to be "for the boys" decisions made at some of these hearings! 

 

Now having worked in an industry that is dictated by insurance companies, I found it interesting they found no trust in some decision making panels! 

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4 hours ago, Turkey Slapper said:

You just might find, some insurance companies, in some instances don't give a rats arse about the protest and findings, as they say, there seams to be "for the boys" decisions made at some of these hearings

 

Now having worked in an industry that is dictated by insurance companies, I found it interesting they found no trust in some decision making panels

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Crikey......
 
 

Hi Everyone,

 

The Owners’ Working Group has been formed to provide Australian Sailing a consultative group through which it can engage with owners of keelboats around Australia.

 

For your interest and input, we have written a news article introducing the Owners’ Working Group which can be found here: https://www.sailing.org.au/news/group-formed-to-consult-with-keelboat-owners/

 

Kind regards,

Melanie

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Melanie Peasey
Safety Rules and Representation Coordinator
m: 0407 376 931
melanie.peasey@sailing.org.au  |  www.sailing.org.au
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Group formed to consult with keelboat owners

PUBLISHED THU 17 DEC 2020

The Owners’ Working Group has been formed to provide Australian Sailing a consultative group through which it can engage with owners of keelboats around Australia.

Australian Sailing has a long standing and ongoing role to act as the local office for two rating systems: IRC and ORC. The role requires refined relationships with the owners of yachts making use of this service and with the clubs that conduct races under these rating systems.

At a recent Board meeting, a decision was made to improve Australian Sailing’s engagement with boat owners to canvas opinion and provide guidance on issues of interest to them. Whilst not limited to these, issues of immediate interest are rating and measurement rule changes, insurance, participation levels and the format of key championship events.

The formation of the Owners’ Working Group will elevate engagement with owners of rated yachts. The Group is initially chaired by Shevaun Bruland, a Director of Australian Sailing based in SA, and its membership consists of Noel Cornish AM and Matt Donald in NSW, Bruce Taylor and Jason Close in Vic, Craig Carter in WA and Ed Psaltis in Tas. All members of the Group have demonstrated extensive commitment to the sport and have invested years of their time in keelboat racing. Most have also played senior roles in clubs or other committees.

The Owners’ Working Group had their first meeting just prior to Christmas. The meeting covered the Australian Yachting Championship and what shape and schedule it might take in 2021, and prioritised planning how to interact with owners as the focus for the next meeting, scheduled for early February. To provide input to the Owners’ Working Group please email technical@sailing.org.au.

For information on ratings visit our Ratings homepage.

For information on the Australian Yachting Championships go to the event website.

 
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59 minutes ago, snoopy said:
Crikey......
 
 

Hi Everyone,

 

The Owners’ Working Group has been formed to provide Australian Sailing a consultative group through which it can engage with owners of keelboats around Australia.

 

For your interest and input, we have written a news article introducing the Owners’ Working Group which can be found here: https://www.sailing.org.au/news/group-formed-to-consult-with-keelboat-owners/

 

Kind regards,

Melanie

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Melanie Peasey
Safety Rules and Representation Coordinator
m: 0407 376 931
melanie.peasey@sailing.org.au  |  www.sailing.org.au
Twitter
Facebook
YouTube
LinkedIn
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Group formed to consult with keelboat owners

PUBLISHED THU 17 DEC 2020

The Owners’ Working Group has been formed to provide Australian Sailing a consultative group through which it can engage with owners of keelboats around Australia.

Australian Sailing has a long standing and ongoing role to act as the local office for two rating systems: IRC and ORC. The role requires refined relationships with the owners of yachts making use of this service and with the clubs that conduct races under these rating systems.

At a recent Board meeting, a decision was made to improve Australian Sailing’s engagement with boat owners to canvas opinion and provide guidance on issues of interest to them. Whilst not limited to these, issues of immediate interest are rating and measurement rule changes, insurance, participation levels and the format of key championship events.

The formation of the Owners’ Working Group will elevate engagement with owners of rated yachts. The Group is initially chaired by Shevaun Bruland, a Director of Australian Sailing based in SA, and its membership consists of Noel Cornish AM and Matt Donald in NSW, Bruce Taylor and Jason Close in Vic, Craig Carter in WA and Ed Psaltis in Tas. All members of the Group have demonstrated extensive commitment to the sport and have invested years of their time in keelboat racing. Most have also played senior roles in clubs or other committees.

The Owners’ Working Group had their first meeting just prior to Christmas. The meeting covered the Australian Yachting Championship and what shape and schedule it might take in 2021, and prioritised planning how to interact with owners as the focus for the next meeting, scheduled for early February. To provide input to the Owners’ Working Group please email technical@sailing.org.au.

For information on ratings visit our Ratings homepage.

For information on the Australian Yachting Championships go to the event website.

 

Wish them all the luck in the world and would be happy to provide them with some areas of 'interest'. 

But looking at the areas of immediate interest, it is striking there is zero mention of breaches to the AS Member Protection policy by AS staff and it's affiliated clubs.

Would be interested to see if the agenda is in any way controlled or influenced by AS. If GRS or anyone else that is paid by AS is involved, the OWG's integrity, hence it's relevance and worth, is non existent before it even starts.  Which indicates how deep rooted the problems are. 

Email going off with this exact question soonest. 

 

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^^^^ Shaggy wrt your area of interest, I'd approach Jason Close - he's not only a top bloke with deep experience with club member issues (long term club captain at Sandy YC) but a deeply committed yachtie...of course, against those impeccable qualifications is the indelible black mark of being a mate of mine....

 

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1 hour ago, snoopy said:
Crikey......
 
 

Hi Everyone,

 

The Owners’ Working Group has been formed to provide Australian Sailing a consultative group through which it can engage with owners of keelboats around Australia.

 

For your interest and input, we have written a news article introducing the Owners’ Working Group which can be found here: https://www.sailing.org.au/news/group-formed-to-consult-with-keelboat-owners/

 

Kind regards,

Melanie

0?ui=2&ik=266aa7a754&attid=0.1&permmsgid
Melanie Peasey
Safety Rules and Representation Coordinator
m: 0407 376 931
melanie.peasey@sailing.org.au  |  www.sailing.org.au
Twitter
Facebook
YouTube
LinkedIn
0?ui=2&ik=266aa7a754&attid=0.6&permmsgid
0?ui=2&ik=266aa7a754&attid=0.7&permmsgid

 

Group formed to consult with keelboat owners

PUBLISHED THU 17 DEC 2020

The Owners’ Working Group has been formed to provide Australian Sailing a consultative group through which it can engage with owners of keelboats around Australia.

Australian Sailing has a long standing and ongoing role to act as the local office for two rating systems: IRC and ORC. The role requires refined relationships with the owners of yachts making use of this service and with the clubs that conduct races under these rating systems.

At a recent Board meeting, a decision was made to improve Australian Sailing’s engagement with boat owners to canvas opinion and provide guidance on issues of interest to them. Whilst not limited to these, issues of immediate interest are rating and measurement rule changes, insurance, participation levels and the format of key championship events.

The formation of the Owners’ Working Group will elevate engagement with owners of rated yachts. The Group is initially chaired by Shevaun Bruland, a Director of Australian Sailing based in SA, and its membership consists of Noel Cornish AM and Matt Donald in NSW, Bruce Taylor and Jason Close in Vic, Craig Carter in WA and Ed Psaltis in Tas. All members of the Group have demonstrated extensive commitment to the sport and have invested years of their time in keelboat racing. Most have also played senior roles in clubs or other committees.

The Owners’ Working Group had their first meeting just prior to Christmas. The meeting covered the Australian Yachting Championship and what shape and schedule it might take in 2021, and prioritised planning how to interact with owners as the focus for the next meeting, scheduled for early February. To provide input to the Owners’ Working Group please email technical@sailing.org.au.

For information on ratings visit our Ratings homepage.

For information on the Australian Yachting Championships go to the event website.

 

Let me start by stating that Melanie Peasey is a great person and a friend of mine for over 20 years.

A few months ago a group of owners called a meeting of stakeholders in Keelboat racing in Southeast QLD. It was very well attended with all clubs represented as well as owners, AS staff and one particularly astute and brilliant individual representing the sail training industry. And, this being sailing in QLD, a few lawyers as well :)

It was held in great spirit with all clubs (we almost all) giving overwhelming support to the notion of working together to grow fleets. When Lidia quite rightly raised the elephant in the room of sail pass, he was shouted down by those that didn't want to talk about it.

The clubs that don't charge it to visiting yachts fleets are booming, with their ranks being swelled by the members of the one club that does, and who's keelboat fleet is now down to 4. No bonus points for guessing which club that is.

I think this is a great initiative and we should all participate.  This your AS membership fees actually at work. I think we just need to focus on what the real issues and I will encourage some owners to not begin their submission with 'you cunts need to...' :) 

Bravo AS for this. Like the Hells Angels motto. 'When we do bad no one forgets. When we do good no one remembers'.

 

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22 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Wait - I just noticed that QLD is the only state with no representatives on the committee.

On reflection they can go bash it up their arse and pound sand.

Are you putting your hand up LB? JC & BT are top blokes....and EP knows his way around...as a venerable member of this group you could be "in the tent pissing out..."

 

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I know a few people on that Committee and they can stick it up there arses.

Engagement with the Sailing Arsehats.

As if they are going to get listened to anyway.

Oh, we need to be seen doing something!

Lets not mention the complete fuck over of Cat 3 owners last week.

What a bunch of fuckwits.

No-one thought that one through.

A local surveyor is quoting $10k for the inspection because of the risk.

 

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3 minutes ago, Livia said:

I know a few people on that Committee and they can stick it up there arses.

Engagement with the Sailing Arsehats.

As if they are going to get listened to anyway.

Oh, we need to be seen doing something!

Lets not mention the complete fuck over of Cat 3 owners last week.

What a bunch of fuckwits.

No-one thought that one through.

A local surveyor is quoting $10k for the inspection because of the risk.

 

What happened with Cat 3?

 

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1 hour ago, Couta said:

^^^^ Shaggy wrt your area of interest, I'd approach Jason Close - he's not only a top bloke with deep experience with club member issues (long term club captain at Sandy YC) but a deeply committed yachtie...of course, against those impeccable qualifications is the indelible black mark of being a mate of mine....

 

Nice rap for Recliner there Couta; happy to second all that, a top bloke indeed. Shaggy, stand by for hookup.

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1 hour ago, Livia said:

Mandatory keel and rudder inspections by a qualified person for Cat 1,2 and 3

Including keel bolt tension which of course everyone know

Hey Livia, how do you reckon they'd go checking the keel bolt tension on my boat, were I stupid enough to want to qualify for racing?

FKT

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2 hours ago, Livia said:

inspections by a qualified person for Cat 1,2 and 3

I came across this in the latest osr on ws site.

I wondered what this "qualified person" is? 

Not really going to boost the fleets is it. 

NZ just updated safety rules too, must have used the rejects from AS to review, completly missed most of the bits pointed out to them that were a cockup before and managed to drop in a few new real clangers.

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Hey Livia, how do you reckon they'd go checking the keel bolt tension on my boat, were I stupid enough to want to qualify for racing?

FKT

Pretty simple.

1. Drive it up on the bricks so sitting on keel and rudder. 

2. After the tide drops torque studs/nuts up to spec and if nothing has shat itself .....thumbs up. 

 

images - 2020-12-18T174223.529.jpeg

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Pretty simple.

- Drive it up on the bricks so sitting on keel and rudder. 

2. If after the tide drops nothing has shat itself .....thumbs up. 

 

images - 2020-12-18T174223.529.jpeg

Right - I'm good to go, then.

Seeing as I managed to run aground within a few months of launch...

Funny thing though, the fully welded 40mm thick keel shoe didn't seem to suffer any ill effects. Other than needing a bit more epoxy primer when I hauled out anyway.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Hey Livia, how do you reckon they'd go checking the keel bolt tension on my boat, were I stupid enough to want to qualify for racing?

FKT

It all sounds like pay back because the Showtime owners rightly told the  little As kangaroo court to fuck it self.

Just like the AS/RQYS driven inquiry in the Kingfisher Bay series man overboard was told to fuck off.

These people are just dangerous clowns.

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1 minute ago, Livia said:

It all sounds like pay back because the Showtime owners rightly told the  little As kangaroo court to fuck it self.

Just like the AS/RQYS driven inquiry in the Kingfisher Bay series man overboard.

I think all the keel boat owners should tell AS to go fuck itself. They need the boats far more than the boats need AS. Should be a veto mechanism held by an elected group comprised solely of individual boat owners - not boats owned by corporate bodies - and one vote per boat.

FKT

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7 hours ago, Livia said:

Mandatory keel and rudder inspections by a qualified person for Cat 1,2 and 3

Including keel bolt tension which of course everyone know

 

5 hours ago, BOI Guy said:

I came across this in the latest osr on ws site.

I wondered what this "qualified person" is? 

Not really going to boost the fleets is it. 

NZ just updated safety rules too, must have used the rejects from AS to review, completly missed most of the bits pointed out to them that were a cockup before and managed to drop in a few new real clangers.

BOI Guy,

To find a qualified person will not be a problem.

 

AS will just make a new training package and certifie it’s own staff and people to do the job and that way they can charge what they want too and only have the boats racing that they want too. So they will have No conflicts of interest like normal and just blame the clubs or sailors. End of story. 

 

Afterall AS must keep finding ways to look important, still make money and look like they are in control of our sport. 

 

Pulpit

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13 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Hey Livia, how do you reckon they'd go checking the keel bolt tension on my boat, were I stupid enough to want to qualify for racing?

FKT

FKT, sorry to tell you mate you are just not the right type of person.

 

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1 hour ago, grs said:

Since you are here and are head of safety.....

My club runs twilights on Port Phillip Bay which are Cat 6. We would like to run twilights on full moon nights that would finish after dark, but our interpretation is that it must therefore be a cat 5N (at least when 5N existed) which will dramatically reduce the potential entries. 

When I read this, I wonder if there is scope for our clubs RC to declare these races Cat 6 + adding additional safety items for night without all of the unnecessary cat 5 items? 

Quote

Category of races
As there are many types of racing events, ranging from long distance ocean races sailed under adverse conditions to short course day races sailed in protected or sheltered waters, seven categories of races have been established to provide for the differences in the standards of equipment and accommodation required for varying circumstances.
Categories 0-4 are intended for offshore racing.
Categories 5 and 6 are suitable for (but not exclusive to) races which include only trailable boats.
A race committee should select the category that is applicable to the type of race to be sailed, the locale that it is to be sailed in and the conditions under which it is to be sailed. A race committee may add to the requirements of a particular category but not delete any.

 

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23 hours ago, Couta said:

Are you putting your hand up LB? JC & BT are top blokes....and EP knows his way around...as a venerable member of this group you could be "in the tent pissing out..."

 

Done my time on AYF/YA/AS committees both state and National. I would rather poke myself in the eye with a fork.

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Couta, the distain with which Sailing Australia is treated in Queensland because of its conduct is well reflected in that there is no Qld representation on that Keelboat Committee.

It is up to AS to change that, but no one is betting ion that change soon.

As for the rest of the Qld keelboat community, we seem to be getting along without the fuckers.

 

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Is there an engineer in the house.

From........ https://www.sailingresources.org.au/news/keel-and-rudder-inspection/ 

 When once checking her keel six of the nine stainless steel keel bolts broke or disintegrated when tightened using a torque wrench. Fern discovered that the nuts had ‘work-hardened’ and became brittle.

WORK HARDENED NUTS??

Really?????

With out even looking I will go out on a limb and say SS crevis corrosion.

So Australian Sailing is basing their rule changes on this piece of evidence?

WTF

The only work-hardened nuts are going to be LBs over his RQYS circle jerk

 

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2 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Is there an engineer in the house.

From........ https://www.sailingresources.org.au/news/keel-and-rudder-inspection/ 

 When once checking her keel six of the nine stainless steel keel bolts broke or disintegrated when tightened using a torque wrench. Fern discovered that the nuts had ‘work-hardened’ and became brittle.

WORK HARDENED NUTS??

Really?????

With out even looking I will go out on a limb and say SS crevis corrosion.

So Australian Sailing is basing their rule changes on this piece of evidence?

WTF

 

Well your nuts will never suffer from overwork.

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1 hour ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Is there an engineer in the house.

From........ https://www.sailingresources.org.au/news/keel-and-rudder-inspection/ 

 When once checking her keel six of the nine stainless steel keel bolts broke or disintegrated when tightened using a torque wrench. Fern discovered that the nuts had ‘work-hardened’ and became brittle.

WORK HARDENED NUTS??

Really?????

With out even looking I will go out on a limb and say SS crevis corrosion.

So Australian Sailing is basing their rule changes on this piece of evidence?

WTF

The only work-hardened nuts are going to be LBs over his RQYS circle jerk

 

Stainless steel work hardens you ignorant fuckstick. 

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3 hours ago, Abbo said:

Stainless steel work hardens you ignorant fuckstick. 

Very correct you ignorant fuckstick.

Now read what was actually quoted.

Paraphrasing........ Stainess bolts brokey coz the nuts work hardened.

Now, think about that for one second you ignorant fuckstick

 

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20 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Since you are here and are head of safety.....

My club runs twilights on Port Phillip Bay which are Cat 6. We would like to run twilights on full moon nights that would finish after dark, but our interpretation is that it must therefore be a cat 5N (at least when 5N existed) which will dramatically reduce the potential entries. 

When I read this, I wonder if there is scope for our clubs RC to declare these races Cat 6 + adding additional safety items for night without all of the unnecessary cat 5 items? 

 

Since I am here... indeed.

Whilst I’m happy to explain, this isn’t an Interpretation in accordance with SR 1.01.5 https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/site/fwuozjhld6hfl3ot.pdf#page=8. If I got an email on this, the following is what I’d reply with.

Yes, there is scope to run it as a Category 6 race adding additional safety items for night without all of the unnecessary Category 5 items. There is scope to do this in both contexts of the word; to a certain extent, there is opportunity.

The responsibility sits with the organising authority to choose what race category it should be. It’s up to your club. This is in SR 2.01 at https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/site/fwuozjhld6hfl3ot.pdf#page=13.  “An organising authority shall select the category most suitable for the type of race to be sailed, the locale that it is to be sailed in and the conditions under which it is to be sailed.”

The club and its committee carry this responsibility and duty of care to the sailors. And they carry the liability risk. So, back to scope. What’s reasonable?

Its easy for the club to rest on the default SRs. To make the decision to go Category 6 plus stuff and finish boats after sunset, the club should go through its safety management system and risk management processes to arrive at what the additional safety items might be, satisfy itself why the other safety items are unnecessary, and how it will manage the race and a possible incident in the dark. My recommendation is to not only do this, but make sure it’s all written down.

There will come a point when applying Category 6 plus stuff will still become unreasonable and implausible. That is to say it wouldn’t withstand the ‘straight face’ test and is clearly beyond said scope. Finishing boats just after sunset and getting them home under a rising full moon, that could probably be explained. Doing an overnight race around the bay under a new moon, probably not.

Race categories are something we don’t intervene on unless there’s something patently ridiculous going on. There’s a few that raise our eyebrows in curiosity, but it’s the club that does the risk assessment and has the duty of care applied through its safety management systems.

We’ve got a heap of stuff available online to support your club.

 

 

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9 hours ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Very correct you ignorant fuckstick.

Now read what was actually quoted.

Paraphrasing........ Stainess bolts brokey coz the nuts work hardened.

Now, think about that for one second you ignorant fuckstick

 

I've thought about it for at least 15 seconds, and it still makes no fucking sense at all.

FWIW I've a more than nodding familiarity with various grades of stainless steel and their behaviour.

FKT

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Grade 8 High Tensile Steel bolts and nuts, and put up with the rust, or coat them in Sika.

majority of SS will be cut threads, not die formed rolled thread, and crevice cirrosion is an issue on cut threads.

also torque to yeild is quite close to tensile limits on cut thread SS

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8 hours ago, JasonL said:

Grade 8 High Tensile Steel bolts and nuts, and put up with the rust, or coat them in Sika.

majority of SS will be cut threads, not die formed rolled thread, and crevice cirrosion is an issue on cut threads.

also torque to yeild is quite close to tensile limits on cut thread SS

 

6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Better still nickel-copper Monel high strength and good corrosion resistance.

Just proving that there are at least two "qualified AS standard" keel and rudder assessors out there. How much will you charge the skipper who does one Cat 3 a year and how much liability insurance do you have if your assessment is wrong and someone dies?

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8 hours ago, (p)Irate said:

 

Just proving that there are at least two "qualified AS standard" keel and rudder assessors out there. How much will you charge the skipper who does one Cat 3 a year and how much liability insurance do you have if your assessment is wrong and someone dies?

I still want to know if this is a blanket rule and if so, how anyone regardless of how well qualified they are is going to go about inspecting my keel bolts.

FKT

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On 12/19/2020 at 9:44 AM, grs said:

Bloody hell Glen they just keep coming don't they?  what else is coming? 

The blurb and justifications are rubbish. "some bloke did maintenance". Where is the empirical evidence and the engineering statistics? Pathetic. Worse than the AS report on Sail pass.  

Sail pass,  Sail numbers, and now this keel bolt stuff. Why did you create the Keel boat committee and not Use it?   

You know owners have to regularly get their boat surveyed for insurance purposes? 

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I too want to know how nuts become "work hardened when tightened". And how they subsequently break a bolt this way. 

Oh fuck, AS train & appoint their "auditors"? Who are somehow qualified in mechanical engineering, metallurgy of stainless steel, galvanized steel (some old keel bolts), cast iron, lead, and fiberglass structures (because tight bolts don't do fuck all if the hull structure is compromised).

Unless the person is a marine surveyor with decades of experience, a naval architect with a formal university level education, or a chartered engineer (mechanical or NA) AS is really fooling themselves and opening up themselves to a huge liability.

"Well Your Honor, I was not worried about the creaky keel because just before the race, the AS auditor checked the bolt torques and said it was fine for a Cat 1 race"

With a 20 year old boat WHO decides what is reasonable bolt torque? Do they know the bolt alloy? Thread pitch (metric or inch)? Do they know if the nut has been lubricated, is rusty, or dry (all of which affect torque reading). How do they calculate what is an appropriate torque?  How much is the laminate below the backing plate or washer compressing to relieve the compresive loads...

Christ if somebody asked me to put my neck out and CERTIFY that a keel is safe for use, you would have to drop it and show me that there is not crevice corrosion of the bolts, where the keel enters the hull. I know of no way of non-destructively determining the condition of the internal metal rudder stock and tangs of a typical foam/glass rudder. An X ray can help show cracks but it won't show pitting corrosion in the stock just inside the blade.

 

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Exactly and well said. Mind you I did see a well know AS operative being interviewed about the Hobart race cancelation on the telly the other night. The screen caption described him as a 'Yachting expert'. Maybe he could check the keel bolts?

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From the "Keel and Rudder Inspection" page

At the time of writing, the team running the 70ft Maserati had their keel out being inspected by their engineer and naval architect in advance of the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race. John Hildebrand said that they want to know the boat inside out and be absolutely confident in its structural integrity.

Good to see John's commitment, with no disrepect intended, that is what he is paid for.

I don't see the Maserati team campaign as an average Australian Yacht and its owner, and as such is a piss poor example for AS to use.

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The problem with a governing body attempting to isolate itself from "risk" by enforcing regulations and ammendments, is they isolate themselves from the causes of the "risks", which leads to more regulations and ammendments to deal with more risk, ergo furthur increasing isolation and risk. Non-benevolent Dictatorships work the same way...and history suggests that model of goverance does not produce a successful win-win scenario

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Reading the Safety Information Notice is hilarious.   https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/site/lhniytnwaxdrnb26.pdf

What are the checks designed to do? ... blah blah blah... . It is designed to capture visual signs (cracks, movement, corrosion, loose keel bolts, loose or irregular rudder bearings) that may indicate a potentially serious problem.

Who is a ‘qualified’ Inspector to conduct this visual inspection? The range of Inspectors has been kept broad since the inspections are visual and no specialized equipment or techniques are required. Inspectors could be marine surveyors, naval architects or engineers, or shipyard mechanics with a minimum of 5 years’ experience working on yacht mechanical systems or composite materials. ...

Does this keel inspection ensure seaworthiness of my yacht? This is not a guarantee that the yacht is seaworthy or that the keel or rudder will not fall off

.....

So a visual inspection of the keel internally and externally and externally of the rudder. Looking for cracks, movement and a wiggly rudder bearing?