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57 minutes ago, Livia said:

I just had not raised the two independent power supplies yet.

Does that mean two alternators and two wiring loops to separate battery banks.

Guess so!

Mate while you ponder the power charging and storage end, here is the other end to keep the two AS approved 'unofficial' ECS charts on two mobile phones in full compliance with AS Special Regs.

Who needs an 'official' light list/chart when you have this.

X 2 (device plug to suit mobile device)

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1 hour ago, Livia said:

I just had not raised the two independent power supplies yet

I also had not raised yet there is NO REQUIREMENT for 'unofficial' ECS charts to "contain details on likely ports of refuge" for Cat 1 & 2.

That "ports of refuge" requirement ONLY continues 'as is' if using 'official' paper or 'official' ENC charts.

An odd one that. Maybe it is to encourage for navigation, the use of AS sanctioned 'unofficial' ECS Apple/Google Maps that also show the bars and restaurants at those ports?

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GRS, this is so going to shit so quickly for you.

Just leave it to the masters.

What else do you need beyond this?

The Transport Operations (Marine Safety) Act 1994 imposes a general safety obligation on all vessel owners and operators, masters and crew to operate vessels safely at all times. This responsibility includes making sure the ship is:

  • safe
  • properly equipped and maintained
  • operated in a safe manner. 

The general safety obligation prohibits a vessel from going to sea if it is not properly built and maintained, equipped, crewed and operated in line with its proposed operating environment.

It is not the domain of Arsehat Sailing to enter this requirement or to make prescriptions beyond the law applicable to recreational vessels.

And if you do you better be prepared too get sued, alot, because if you make a list you have to check it off as you have assumed liability.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Livia said:

And if you do you better be prepared too get sued, alot, because if you make a list you have to check it off as you have assumed liability.

And don't forget to disclose to AS's including Directors PI insurer before enacting.

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14 hours ago, Livia said:

GRS, this is so going to shit so quickly for you.

Just leave it to the masters.

What else do you need beyond this?

The Transport Operations (Marine Safety) Act 1994 imposes a general safety obligation on all vessel owners and operators, masters and crew to operate vessels safely at all times. This responsibility includes making sure the ship is:

  • safe
  • properly equipped and maintained
  • operated in a safe manner. 

The general safety obligation prohibits a vessel from going to sea if it is not properly built and maintained, equipped, crewed and operated in line with its proposed operating environment.

It is not the domain of Arsehat Sailing to enter this requirement or to make prescriptions beyond the law applicable to recreational vessels.

And if you do you better be prepared too get sued, alot, because if you make a list you have to check it off as you have assumed liability.

 

 

Absolutely! To me they started to take on un-needed responsibility when Equipment Auditors needed to be registered. Basically  inferring that by only allowing certain people to inspect, then some responsibility was assumed by the auditor. They should have left it as it was, and reinforced that the audit is exactly that - on that day and at that time the yacht complied, and there was no warranty that the yacht was "safe" for whatever race it then entered. 

Now they want keel inspections, and as argued above - by whom, and is there any liability assumed? If so I can't imagine who would do such inspections, except at enormous cost. Why can't AS leave it alone?

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25 minutes ago, mccroc said:

Absolutely! To me they started to take on un-needed responsibility when Equipment Auditors needed to be registered. Basically  inferring that by only allowing certain people to inspect, then some responsibility was assumed by the auditor. They should have left it as it was, and reinforced that the audit is exactly that - on that day and at that time the yacht complied, and there was no warranty that the yacht was "safe" for whatever race it then entered. 

Now they want keel inspections, and as argued above - by whom, and is there any liability assumed? If so I can't imagine who would do such inspections, except at enormous cost. Why can't AS leave it alone?

My usual boat builders say they will not do the keel inspections and the the unconfirmed quote from a surveyor is $10k because of the risk.

You just killed off category 3.

 

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GRS, having spent the morning going through the Hydrographic Office site and even downloading the sample software, can you get Mr Oxenbould to calculate the following:

If I am doing Sydney Southport and Sydney Hobart what is my yearly HO subscription to comply with your proposed prescriptions.

Include updates for each chart unless you are saying that you do not need to update every chart.

There are 11 charts required for Hobart but most do not cover ports of refuge.

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49 minutes ago, mccroc said:

Absolutely! To me they started to take on un-needed responsibility when Equipment Auditors needed to be registered. Basically  inferring that by only allowing certain people to inspect, then some responsibility was assumed by the auditor. They should have left it as it was, and reinforced that the audit is exactly that - on that day and at that time the yacht complied, and there was no warranty that the yacht was "safe" for whatever race it then entered. 

Now they want keel inspections, and as argued above - by whom, and is there any liability assumed? If so I can't imagine who would do such inspections, except at enormous cost. Why can't AS leave it alone?

It seems AS want to create endless rules (in the name of safety) while absolving themselves from any responsibility. I was on the 3 person committee that set up the national safety auditing system. The entire concept was to stop them giving advice, interpreting policy and doing anything more than saying yes it was there, in date and correctly stowed. Now they need to decide if a keel surveyer is competent and be an expert on electronic charts. 

Anyone who wants to take that on needs their head read.

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So I need one Voyager pack or five Coastal packs.

So $402.50 or $402.00 each 12 months but as Southport and Hobart fall in a 6 month period I could be a cheap arse and only get a 6 month licence at $241.50 for the Voyager pack but there is no 6 month licence for Coastal packs. 

To do Keppel or Hammo, I need another Voyager pack or 2 extra Coastal packs so at least another $160.00.

The pricing page does not make it clear whether the $85.00 for Chart Viewer is one off or a yearly fee.

So another $600.00 a year and every year, so can someone give me the evidence why it is needed.

Or have I got this wrong.

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45 minutes ago, Livia said:

So I need one Voyager pack or five Coastal packs.

So $402.50 or $402.00 each 12 months but as Southport and Hobart fall in a 6 month period I could be a cheap arse and only get a 6 month licence at $241.50 for the Voyager pack but there is no 6 month licence for Coastal packs. 

To do Keppel or Hammo, I need another Voyager pack or 2 extra Coastal packs so at least another $160.00.

The pricing page does not make it clear whether the $85.00 for Chart Viewer is one off or a yearly fee.

So another $600.00 a year and every year, so can someone give me the evidence why it is needed.

Or have I got this wrong.

Yep, you've got it about right IIRC. I've had discussions with the Hydro guys back in the day and their response was, don't talk to *US* about the cost, talk to the politicians.

NOAA can make their charts available for free, we taxpayers have already paid for the RAN budget, I see no reason with downloadable charts why we should have to pay anything at all.

FKT

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3 hours ago, Livia said:

GRS, having spent the morning going through the Hydrographic Office site and even downloading the sample software, can you get Mr Oxenbould to calculate the following:

If I am doing Sydney Southport and Sydney Hobart what is my yearly HO subscription to comply with your proposed prescriptions.

2 hours ago, Livia said:

So I need one Voyager pack or five Coastal packs......

...So another $600.00 a year and every year, so can someone give me the evidence why it is needed.

....Or have I got this wrong.

"GRS, having spent the morning going through the Hydrographic Office......So another $600.00 a year and every year, so can someone give me the evidence why it is needed. Or have I got this wrong"

Mate unfortunately you have it very wrong

Under proposed SR amendment you DON'T need to use HO 'official' AustENC charting.

Assuming HO paper charts are finally gone along with corrections.

Your on board 'unofficial' ECS charting options can be ANY combination of the following according to the Special Regs as amended. 

There is NO form of prescribed 'unauthorised' ENC device OR charting. It could range from proprietary charting to Apple/Google 'terrestrial' maps or even 'crowd sourced' marine navigation charts ie. Wikipedia style.  

As a backup chart is now prescribed/inferred for the FIRST time,  a Minimum of TWO 'unofficial' ENC charts with the appropriate interfaces is required, ie. Tactical/Nav software loaded with ONLY C- Map, Chart Plotter or mobile devices using Apps.  

'Unofficial' ECS

The choices are;

Tactical/Nav Software - Windows Device cost plus Expedition $1,700 updates incl. 

Chart Plotter - Plotter cost plus say Navionics Australia East & North Platinum+ XL3 Chart $556 RRP. Updates incl one year 50% off renewal.

Mobile Device - Device cost plus App cost. Navionics App $35 per year.

Mobile Device - Device Cost plus FREE Nav App. 

Navigation Software -  Device cost plus FREE software and FREE charts incl pirated and community chart sources.

__________________________

'Official' ENC

Alternatively anyone wishing to ignore the MINIMUM Special Regulations as amended and wish to replicate existing arrangement of one set of HO 'authorised' paper charts on board.

Note: They are required for viewing ONLY prior to Cat 1 & 2 races, but NOT required to be on board. 

The ONLY option then is IHO 'authorised' ENC 57/63 charting. For Australian centric users AustENC is the equivalent and more cost effective.

The HO AustENC charting cost I haven't worked out for Southport to Hobart. It will depend if on 12, 9, 6 and 3 month licence basis. I also haven't checked IHO ENC availability from other jurisdictions. A visiting international boat would utilise these.

However the COST is LESS than HO 'official' paper charts prescribed by RO's for those races, contain greater detail and more easily updated. It will also be LESS than Chart Plotter proprietary 'unauthorised' ECS charts that cover Southport to Hobart.

The ENC 57/63 interface only cost range choices are.

Tactical/Nav Software - Device cost plus Expedition $1,700 updates incl. Plus AustENC charts cost.

Navigation Software - Device cost plus PC/Mac/Linux/Rasberry ENC 57/63 capable interfaces - FREE. Plus AustENC charts cost.

Mobile Devices - Device cost plus IOS/Android ENC 57/63 capable App interfaces a fee which varies with features. Plus AustENC charts cost, OR NO EXTRA cost if used with Navigation Software and HO ENC license.

As you can see Expedition that is ALREADY used by a lot of race boats is ALREADY ENC 57/63 compliant.

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^^^^^^ 

PS. Forgot 'unofficial' ECS chart for Tactical/Nav Software . That is C-Map for both Expedition and Andrena.

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

'Unofficial' ECS

The choices are;

Tactical/Nav Software - Windows Device cost plus Expedition $1,700 updates incl. 

 

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I've got C-Map on my Simrad plotter, Navionics on my IPad and Samsung tablet (along with the Simrad remote viewer) and OpenCPN with charts of dodgy provenance on my Raspberry Pi so I'm golden.

IF I could get AusENC for say $100 pa for all of Australia I'd do it but I'm fucked if I'm paying stupid money on top of already funding the IHO via tax revenue.

FKT

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

"GRS, having spent the morning going through the Hydrographic Office......So another $600.00 a year and every year, so can someone give me the evidence why it is needed. Or have I got this wrong"

Mate unfortunately you have it very wrong

Under proposed SR amendment you DON'T need to use HO 'official' AustENC charting.

Assuming HO paper charts are finally gone along with corrections.

Your on board 'unofficial' ECS charting options can be ANY combination of the following according to the Special Regs as amended. 

There is NO form of prescribed 'unauthorised' ENC device OR charting. It could range from proprietary charting to Apple/Google 'terrestrial' maps or even 'crowd sourced' marine navigation charts ie. Wikipedia style.  

As a backup chart is now prescribed/inferred for the FIRST time,  a Minimum of TWO 'unofficial' ENC charts with the appropriate interfaces is required, ie. Tactical/Nav software loaded with ONLY C- Map, Chart Plotter or mobile devices using Apps.  

'Unofficial' ECS

The choices are;

Tactical/Nav Software - Windows Device cost plus Expedition $1,700 updates incl. 

Chart Plotter - Plotter cost plus say Navionics Australia East & North Platinum+ XL3 Chart $556 RRP. Updates incl one year 50% off renewal.

Mobile Device - Device cost plus App cost. Navionics App $35 per year.

Mobile Device - Device Cost plus FREE Nav App. 

Navigation Software -  Device cost plus FREE software and FREE charts incl pirated and community chart sources.

__________________________

'Official' ENC

Alternatively anyone wishing to ignore the MINIMUM Special Regulations as amended and wish to replicate existing arrangement of one set of HO 'authorised' paper charts on board.

Note: They are required for viewing ONLY prior to Cat 1 & 2 races, but NOT required to be on board. 

The ONLY option then is IHO 'authorised' ENC 57/63 charting. For Australian centric users AustENC is the equivalent and more cost effective.

The HO AustENC charting cost I haven't worked out for Southport to Hobart. It will depend if on 12, 9, 6 and 3 month licence basis. I also haven't checked IHO ENC availability from other jurisdictions. A visiting international boat would utilise these.

However the COST is LESS than HO 'official' paper charts prescribed by RO's for those races, contain greater detail and more easily updated. It will also be LESS than Chart Plotter proprietary 'unauthorised' ECS charts that cover Southport to Hobart.

The ENC 57/63 interface only cost range choices are.

Tactical/Nav Software - Device cost plus Expedition $1,700 updates incl. Plus AustENC charts cost.

Navigation Software - Device cost plus PC/Mac/Linux/Rasberry ENC 57/63 capable interfaces - FREE. Plus AustENC charts cost.

Mobile Devices - Device cost plus IOS/Android ENC 57/63 capable App interfaces a fee which varies with features. Plus AustENC charts cost, OR NO EXTRA cost if used with Navigation Software and HO ENC license.

As you can see Expedition that is ALREADY used by a lot of race boats is ALREADY ENC 57/63 compliant.

JS,  I may be misinterpreting this, but you would also require to have access to $600 worth of 'Official' ENC charts to compare to your Unofficial' ECS prior to starting?!

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15 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

IF I could get AusENC for say $100 pa for all of Australia I'd do it but I'm fucked if I'm paying stupid money on top of already funding the IHO via tax revenue.

FKT

If you went racing you might get AusENC for free. :D

Australian Hydrographic Office provide FREE 'official' Electronic Navigation Charts (AusENC)for 2019 Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race

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33 minutes ago, Mad Mac said:

JS,  I may be misinterpreting this, but you would also require to have access to $600 worth of 'Official' ENC charts to compare to your Unofficial' ECS prior to starting?!

Correct Cat 1 and 2. 

That concept stupid the delineation even more stupid as more Cat3/3+ races now (that used to be Cat 2) and are beach bashing and rock dodging races aka Pittwater Coffs and Brisbane Gladstone.

NOT $600. See below.

Could even be free on board for S2H if AHO remain generous.

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Alternatively anyone wishing to ignore the MINIMUM Special Regulations as amended and wish to replicate existing arrangement of one set of HO 'authorised' paper charts on board.

Note: They are required for viewing ONLY prior to Cat 1 & 2 races, but NOT required to be on board. ....

...The HO AustENC charting cost I haven't worked out for Southport to Hobart. It will depend if on 12, 9, 6 and 3 month licence basis....

.....However the COST is LESS than HO 'official' paper charts prescribed by RO's for those races, contain greater detail and more easily updated. It will also be LESS than Chart Plotter proprietary 'unauthorised' ECS charts that cover Southport to Hobart.

 

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3 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Maybe AS could actually do something useful for the first time in their existence and lobby the Govt to make the AusENC charts available to all Australians for a nominal fee.

Nah, never happen, I'm dreaming.

FKT

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27 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Maybe AS could actually do something useful for the first time in their existence and lobby the Govt to make the AusENC charts available to all Australians for a nominal fee.

Nah, never happen, I'm dreaming.

FKT

AS could not find a lift lobby. 

They are unaware of AHO's own documents that tip shit on the very 'unofficial' ECS charting AS intend mandating for use.

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Just now, jack_sparrow said:

AS could not find a lift lobby. 

They are unaware of AHO's own documents that tip shit on the very 'unofficial' ECS charting AS intend mandating for use.

True. They're a classic example of an organisation in search of a real role and Parkinson's Law in action. If they grow their role, they can ask for (demand) more resources to fulfill that role.

At the same time they don't do things which would actually benefit all Australian sailing - such as make AusENC charts available for a nominal cost.

In the old days of paper charts this was different - there was a real cost in printing, revising and distributing paper charts. Nowadays they have to do it for the RAN, they're paid by the Govt to do the job and the cost of distribution is effectively zero, so where's the downside? It's like the arguments about pirate copies of software; if people who ran pirate copies all bought it, revenue would be XXX. But those people won't pay the asking price, they'll use something else.

And here we are, with AusENC charts unaffordable on any sensible terms and AS doing fuck-all to actually help. Indeed, they're doing their best to make the situation more confusing and worse.

Worthy of a 'Yes Minister' episode, really.

FKT

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28 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And here we are, with AusENC charts unaffordable on any sensible terms and AS doing fuck-all to actually help. Indeed , they're doing their best to make the situation more confusing and worse.

Worthy of a 'Yes Minister' episode, really.

FKT

Paper counterfeiting thrived outside Australia because of cost. ENC shuts the door on that. NOAA are out of paper/raster by 2025.

AS promotion of AHO paper/raster being transitioned out next year is bullshit. That has started but it is only going to happen in places where paper sales are low. It will take longer than that unless AHO switch gears on ENC access.

AHO didn't follow NOAA on free raster. However I would not be surprised if AHO follow NOAA on ENC (nearly 1,700 NOAA ENC charts) and make it FREE or some scheme for non commercial users.

With that in mind then this already AS clusterfuck will be even worse.

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Glen, do something useful for once, Get AS to buy one multiuser ENC license for all RRS event users.

We can each get a licence through the AS head licence.

I would pay say $50.00 a year for that.

But no bullshit like use is for 1 month just for one race.

Don't say that can't be done as I do it at work for other down the wire services.

 

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43 minutes ago, Livia said:

Glen, do something useful for once, Get AS to buy one multiuser ENC license for all RRS event users.

We can each get a licence through the AS head licence.

I would pay say $50.00 a year for that.

But no bullshit like use is for 1 month just for one race.

Don't say that can't be done as I do it at work for other down the wire services.

 

All charts for all Australian waters, mind.

I'd even join an affiliated club and pay the AS capitation fee for a deal like that.

FKT

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9 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:
10 hours ago, Livia said:

Glen, do something useful for once, Get AS to buy one multiuser ENC license for all RRS event users.

We can each get a licence through the AS head licence.

I would pay say $50.00 a year for that.

But no bullshit like use is for 1 month just for one race.

Don't say that can't be done as I do it at work for other down the wire services.

 

All charts for all Australian waters, mind.

I'd even join an affiliated club and pay the AS capitation fee for a deal like that.

Fah I'm now starting to get the impression you want racers to subsidise  'unofficial' chartless people who want to become 'officialy' charted people?

That is problematic.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Fah I'm now starting to get the impression you want racers to subsidise  'unofficial' chartless people who want to become 'officialy' charted people?

That is problematic.

What I'd *like* is the Aus Govt to permit the hydro guys to make the charts freely available for download to Australians, seeing as our taxpayer money has already paid for them. Maybe they could restrict it to Australian registered vessels or something.

I'll accept a cheap alternative via AS but I can't see that ever happening as it'd involve actually doing something useful for sailing in Australia.

Meanwhile I have my Simrad plotter, Navionics on a couple of tablets and OpenCPN with freely available charts and that's good enough for me.

FKT

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On 12/31/2020 at 4:20 PM, Mad Mac said:

JS,  I may be misinterpreting this, but you would also require to have access to $600 worth of 'Official' ENC charts to compare to your Unofficial' ECS prior to starting?!

Jacks post has two completely inaccurate points. I will leave it to him to spot and correct them.

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2 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

Pro navigator Mike Broughton explains why paper charts are still irreplaceable

https://www.yachtingworld.com/features/navigator-mike-broughton-paper-charts-irreplaceable-129038

Jack will be along soon to pull the article apart. He is still busy over in the brexit thread peer reviewing papers he presented last year.

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12 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Wot no shitpost?? There is a definition typo 'unofficial' ENC should read 'unofficial' ECS.

Could it be that Wikipedia is not always right?

Siri, fact check jacks last post.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/19/2020 at 9:43 PM, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Very correct you ignorant fuckstick.

Now read what was actually quoted.

Paraphrasing........ Stainess bolts brokey coz the nuts work hardened.

Now, think about that for one second you ignorant fuckstick

 

Riiiight, so the work hardening caused by cycling loads only applies to the bolts and not the nuts. Sure that makes perfect sense. Moron.

 

image.jpeg.b92e94944b95a76406a7a69ecadc9ba2.jpeg

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

This is doing the rounds on facebook again.

What are my obligations as an owner?

if I say to all my crew are you members and they say yes have I met my obligation to rule 46?  Will I get scrubbed if it turns out that they are not a member?   

am I supposed to check (I wont be doing this)?

How will this be policed? will there be audits to ensure compliance?

 

 

https://www.sailing.org.au/news/faq-changes-to-rule-46/

image.png.74b151e86f0b0576ca122a8d6a75e577.png

image.png.cd64a5b4632ba28bde443b78f3c204df.png

 

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Can't wait for my RRS 69 hearing for being a person in charge of my own boat when I take a non member (read someone new to the sport) racing in the beer can race one evening.

I am the person in charge and have intentionally ignored RRS 46 and 75.

GRS, I will let you know the first time I intend to break the Rule.

Most likely at a Tuesday night twilight at the Huon Yacht Club.

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Have been out of the sport for a few decades ( kids,family etc).Feeling my way back in and was hoping to purchase a Trailer Sailer to be used for club racing and cruising.Reading all this is a major disincentive.When the kids were doing Football the administrators were super keen to get the numbers artificially up so as to create inflated participation mirage so as to facilitate additional government grants or funding.An uninformed cynic like myself might think that the same caper is going on here.Hope I’m wrong.Might just stick to cruising.

Edited by Rotnest Express
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48 minutes ago, BOI Guy said:

It's not about increasing membership, it's just another mechanism to bring out when it looks like the wrong boat is winning the race.

 

I dunno - how many 'members' would AS have if they weren't forced?

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Have I misread the Insurance re ‘Loss of Income’?

100% of Salary up to $300 a Week!

Got the Club Membership application forms and the Racing Registration forms for the new Club I was thinking of joining.

The Racing form requires a insurance policy with a minimum of AUD10 million Liability.Wouldn’t any claim of any substance be directed through the Yachts policy thus making it almost impossible to claim against the compulsory insurance that is portrayed  as a benefit?

When I last raced years ago the Administration Body was called the Australian Yachting Federation.Is this the same organisation renamed?They used to be pretty helpful putting on worthwhile seminars etc FOC for punters like myself.Reading here it sounds like things have gone backwards.

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1 hour ago, Dark Cloud said:

I dunno - how many 'members' would AS have if they weren't forced?

What do mean members, thought it was down to three now

If you can’t vote you are not a member

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14 hours ago, Rotnest Express said:

Have been out of the sport for a few decades ( kids,family etc).Feeling my way back in and was hoping to purchase a Trailer Sailer to be used for club racing and cruising.Reading all this is a major disincentive.When the kids were doing Football the administrators were super keen to get the numbers artificially up so as to create inflated participation mirage so as to facilitate additional government grants or funding.An uninformed cynic like myself might think that the same caper is going on here.Hope I’m wrong.Might just stick to cruising.

You are right on the money. AS missed it’s participation KPI’s a few years back and this plan was hatched to ‘capture’ anyone who stepped foot on a sailing boat and to go cap in hand to the funding tree. They produced this glowing report showing how the sport had suddenly grown by a huge percentage. We need a new peak body that’s true motivation is more than job security for a chosen few.  

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Well I think the COVID pandemic with its associated "have to sign in everywhere you go" is just a very elaborate way of Australian Sailing getting us eased into the new rule 46! :lol:

We had to lodge comprehensive crew list to be able to sail during the various levels of lockdown and this has just morphed into Rule 46 compliance. Our club uses an app to log in members sailing, and any non-club members (even members of other clubs) need to get a (for now) free sailpass to be able to log onto a boat.

The crew list information is not available to other boats so I guess compliance is up to the skipper or if the club wants to do headcounts as boats cross the line.

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20 minutes ago, Mad Mac said:

It is illegal to use the COVID sign in for any other purpose other than contact tracing when/if required.

Sorry if I was unclear Mad, they aren't using the COVID sign-in for the crew list, it's just that we've all gotten used to signing in for everything that it's just another thing we have to do.

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27 minutes ago, Jethrow said:

Sorry if I was unclear Mad, they aren't using the COVID sign-in for the crew list, it's just that we've all gotten used to signing in for everything that it's just another thing we have to do.

You guys racing might.

The rest of us just get on our boats and go sailing.

FKT

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I looked on the RYA website, their rule 46 is the same as World sailing and have no PRESCRIPTIONS on the rule. 

the Report that AS did on the change had only 7 owners consulted I will go find it.

 

 

image.png

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2 hours ago, Jethrow said:

Well I think the COVID pandemic with its associated "have to sign in everywhere you go" is just a very elaborate way of Australian Sailing getting us eased into the new rule 46! :lol:

We had to lodge comprehensive crew list to be able to sail during the various levels of lockdown and this has just morphed into Rule 46 compliance. Our club uses an app to log in members sailing, and any non-club members (even members of other clubs) need to get a (for now) free sailpass to be able to log onto a boat.

The crew list information is not available to other boats so I guess compliance is up to the skipper or if the club wants to do headcounts as boats cross the line.

And there is the problem.

Sailpass is not free everywhere for members of other affiliated clubs.

The implimentation has been dishonest from day one.

 

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I would like someone in Australian Sailing to explain to me just where they think they get the power to make the purported prescription to rule 46, because I don't think they do have the power.

If the local TV station decides they want to send a photographer out on my boat to get some footage of local yacht racing, I am responsible for ensuring that the cameraman joins the club or pays for a sailpass?  And if my friends want to come out and see what sailing is about, or just enjoy a day on the water, it's the same!  And this is supposed to be good for the sport? 

AS can get fucked!

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Maybe someone on here can comment on the Sail Port Stephens regatta, where the Sailpass is $15 per day per applicable crewmember. I don't know if this applies to only non-AS club members or to any visiting crew? Has anyone gone through the regatta registration process?

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27 minutes ago, Jethrow said:

Maybe someone on here can comment on the Sail Port Stephens regatta, where the Sailpass is $15 per day per applicable crewmember

My emphasis above.  Note that AS in it's Nautical News talks of "competitors", which Jethrow has equated to "crewmember" (as would most of us), but the wording of the purported prescription uses the term "all persons on board" which ropes in persons who are pure guests taking no active role in sailing the boat.  How do they purport to acquire jurisdiction over such persons?  

It is also dishonest to purportedly make a rule using one term and then use (misleadingly) a different term in explanatory material.

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$15 per person per day for up to 6 days.

Pretty cheap for a YNSW endorsement.

https://www.sailportstephens.com.au/about/history/

Though I'm not real sure the organisers would be happy with the additional financial burden place on the participants for an event created to encourage tourism and aimed, primarily at the cruising sailor and their family and friends. Refer to to entry number in the cruising divisions.

https://www.topyacht.com.au/db/kb/entrants_display.php?EventID=1359

 

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20 minutes ago, Mad Mac said:

$15 per person per day for up to 6 days.

Pretty cheap for a YNSW endorsement.

https://www.sailportstephens.com.au/about/history/

Though I'm not real sure the organisers would be happy with the additional financial burden place on the participants for an event created to encourage tourism and aimed, primarily at the cruising sailor and their family and friends. Refer to to entry number in the cruising divisions.

https://www.topyacht.com.au/db/kb/entrants_display.php?EventID=1359

 

That is not cheap as you say.

Regatta cost just increased for say a Sydney 38, AUD $900.00 on top on entry fees.

If you want to go down this road why have club membership fees.

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5 minutes ago, Livia said:

That is not cheap as you say.

Regatta cost just increased for say a Sydney 38, AUD $900.00 on top on entry fees.

If you want to go down this road why have club membership fees.

get rid of say a sydney 38 and learn how to hike again....say a finn...lol you can have a go in mine next time your in brisvegas

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I should have used the purple font. B)

Commodore's cup is all about getting family and friends on to your big cruiser that only gets used a couple of times a year. Holding out the money tin is not a good look when they walk on board.

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Is the objective to recover costs of an event or to make money off the event?

to cover the costs of an event is fair enough but to slug crew $15 a day after charging the owner entry fees and getting sponsorship as well as using volunteers to run the event is bad form. After all it is the owners who are providing the vessel not the OA. 

Where the club should be making their money is food and drink after each race day with events, promotions and other things. 

 

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Do you think this is the event organiser requiring this??

Or has their hand been forced by AS and rule 46.

 

My reading of it is they organised all aspects of this (very good) regatta and needed endorsement by YNSW, now AS.

https://www.sailportstephens.com.au/about/history/

I think the intent of the regatta was to get a bunch of sailors and their families and friends to come to Port Stephens and spend some money in the community, not to hand over a chunk of money to an organisation that is not there to benefit this community.

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Well AS requires rule 46 to be enforced but they do not mandate a charge for the Sailpass. I think the $15 per person per day goes to the organizers, but I'm happy to be proved wrong on this.

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12 hours ago, Jethrow said:

Well AS requires rule 46 to be enforced but they do not mandate a charge for the Sailpass. I think the $15 per person per day goes to the organizers, but I'm happy to be proved wrong on this.

Well, take the amount off the entry fee.

Just another example of AS being a "club focussed organisation which really means "we will fuck individual sailors every chance we get"

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A few clubs are offering SailPass at $10 for 365 days, just to comply with R46

it gets the newbies in.

if they dont like sailing, they dont come back.

those that do, are encouraged to pay regular membership fees.

beats demanding full membership to step onto a boat for first time.

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9 hours ago, JasonL said:

A few clubs are offering SailPass at $10 for 365 days, just to comply with R46

it gets the newbies in.

if they dont like sailing, they dont come back.

those that do, are encouraged to pay regular membership fees.

beats demanding full membership to step onto a boat for first time.

Which ones, but more importantly, how many times can you sail pin the 365 days.

However as discussed above the real problem is clubs charging members a from other clubs.

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Participation in the sport of sailing has shrunk considerably over the past decade- on AS watch. Sail pass is nothing more that a program to artificially increase the numbers of so called participants.

in times past we all asked a few of our non sailing friends out on a race to see if they liked it - and my experience is that most did and many took up the sport and joined a club. Now AS expect the owner to stump up more money to take their friends out- could there be a bigger disincentive to stop this happening? 

One of the greatest bits of bullshit is the analogy to the sport of rugby where you must join a club to play. The difference is that in Rugby it is the clubs that are responsible for the health and safety of participants. In sailing it is the boat owners, not the clubs. 

We need a new peak body that’s role is to support the participants not just seek to control them. This becomes even more difficult when AS is beholden to some clubs because the clubs are their landlord. 

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On 4/9/2021 at 12:51 PM, Jethrow said:

Maybe someone on here can comment on the Sail Port Stephens regatta, where the Sailpass is $15 per day per applicable crewmember. I don't know if this applies to only non-AS club members or to any visiting crew? Has anyone gone through the regatta registration process?

Where did you get this Jethrow.  There is nothing obvious on the event website.  I going to call this one BS.

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11 hours ago, LB 15 said:

 We need a new peak body that’s role is to support the participants not just seek to control them. This becomes even more difficult when AS is beholden to some clubs because the clubs are their landlord. 

I think AS are doing a good job. AS are inspiring the acceleration in the growth of short handed sailing and the sales of suitable boats. Jeanneau is selling so many 3300’s that the local dealer is updating his 911 to the turbo version. Whilst I had to pay more to get my 3200, the growth of 2h should keep its value high. 
 

;)

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8 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

I think AS are doing a good job. AS are inspiring the acceleration in the growth of short handed sailing and the sales of suitable boats. Jeanneau is selling so many 3300’s that the local dealer is updating his 911 to the turbo version. Whilst I had to pay more to get my 3200, the growth of 2h should keep its value high. 
 

;)

Bullshit. How are AS doing this so called inspiration except by inspiring so many people to give up sailing because of their RRS46 scam that those of us left have no choice but to look at short-handed options? Unless that was your point.

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27 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

I think AS are doing a good job. AS are inspiring the acceleration in the growth of short handed sailing and the sales of suitable boats. Jeanneau is selling so many 3300’s that the local dealer is updating his 911 to the turbo version. Whilst I had to pay more to get my 3200, the growth of 2h should keep its value high. 
 

;)

You naughty troll Hoppy.

My club introduced forced electronic (shitty smart phone app) signons of all crew for all races a year(s) ago now - all under the guise of 'safety'. <_< Non-compliance meant DSQ. Repeated meant a 69 if I recall.

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44 minutes ago, (p)Irate said:

Bullshit. How are AS doing this so called inspiration except by inspiring so many people to give up sailing because of their RRS46 scam that those of us left have no choice but to look at short-handed options? Unless that was your point.

Exactly my point ;)

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4 hours ago, trt131 said:

Where did you get this Jethrow.  There is nothing obvious on the event website.  I going to call this one BS.

There's an OD class portion of the regatta which some friends are doing but I'm not. It was a comment from them about the $15 per day per person when they were trying to enter that prompted my comment. That is why I was asking if any yacht owners had entered and seen the same thing.

I'm hoping it IS bullshit... ;)

Edit: Yeah, I had a look around and saw the $15 Sailpass per day but it was for the sailing club maybe not the regatta. All I know is the guys entering the regatta thought they would be charged the fee. Maybe just poor wording on the entry, it did sound like a pain in the arse to enter.

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26 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

You naughty troll Hoppy.

My club introduced forced electronic (shitty smart phone app) signons of all crew for all races a year(s) ago now - all under the guise of 'safety'. <_< Non-compliance meant DSQ. Repeated meant a 69 if I recall.

The same club that is seeing a big influx of 2h racers. 
 

luckily in Vic we are well prepared for AS’s RRS46 with the strong promotion of 2h by the ORCV and the addition of the 4+ AP all without the stupidity of the CYCA. 
 

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6 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

The same club that is seeing a big influx of 2h racers. 
 

luckily in Vic we are well prepared for AS’s RRS46 with the strong promotion of 2h by the ORCV and the addition of the 4+ AP all without the stupidity of the CYCA. 
 

Yes - the ORCV are ahead of the curve compared to CYCA. Probably a few are. 

But they've been aware for quite some time now, that crew shortages esp. for offshore racing, with all the extra malarkey that goes with it, is a major issue for entrants. Thus the leaning towards shorthanded.

Weren't you moving north ?

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5 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

Yes - the ORCV are ahead of the curve compared to CYCA. Probably a few are. 

But they've been aware for quite some time now, that crew shortages esp. for offshore racing, with all the extra malarkey that goes with it, is a major issue for entrants. Thus the leaning towards shorthanded.

Weren't you moving north ?

I am. So whilst we are lucky here to have the ORCV, I won’t be getting to enjoy it. 

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8 hours ago, Rotnest Express said:

How are Australian Sailing board or Committee elected?Is it democratic i.e. 1 affiliated member equals 1 vote or is it a ‘secret handshake Club’?

By the laying on of hands. 

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8 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

I am. So whilst we are lucky here to have the ORCV, I won’t be getting to enjoy it. 

Not much short handed sailing up here Hoppy. Most of us Queenslanders have rather large hands. And you know the old saying...big hands...big gloves.

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4 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Not much short handed sailing up here Hoppy. Most of us Queenslanders have rather large hands. And you know the old saying...big hands...big gloves.

Speaking of shorthand sailing and a lack thereof.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-me-fend-off-matt-allen?utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet&utm_medium=copy_link_all&utm_source=customer

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14 minutes ago, twistandtape said:

Holy fuck! I know Mark well and had no idea this was happening. 

I might dial back on my Hitler video productions!

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32 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Faaaaaark. How do we find the said video.

Research purposes only, of course.

 

Yes we would all like to see this video!

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44 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Faaaaaark. How do we find the said video.

Research purposes only, of course.

 

Put the money up bitch! I mean that in the nicest possible way. 

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Why the fuck would a sailing organisation appoint as a director of a double handed sailing association a person who has set out to screw double handed sailors?  This is something that I would expect from Australian Sailing.

Not just disappointing, but petty and vindictive action by Matt Allen - I would have hoped for him to be better than this.

Thanks twistandtape for putting this out there.  

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This is interesting...

Downfall: BP worker sacked over Hitler parody wins his job back

This article is more than 1 year old

Fair Work Commission finds oil refinery technician was not comparing his bosses to Hitler when he posted Downfall meme

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/feb/28/downfall-bp-worker-sacked-over-hitler-parody-wins-his-job-back

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2 hours ago, Recidivist said:

Why the fuck would a sailing organisation appoint as a director of a double handed sailing association a person who has set out to screw double handed sailors?  This is something that I would expect from Australian Sailing.

Not just disappointing, but petty and vindictive action by Matt Allen - I would have hoped for him to be better than this.

Thanks twistandtape for putting this out there.  

Matt needs to harden the fuck up.

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5 hours ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Faaaaaark. How do we find the said video.

Research purposes only, of course.

 

Matt Allen claims it gets mentioned to him everyday! I'm starting to doubt that since even Mrs O hasn't seen it.

But please, if you do come across it link us.