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13 minutes ago, DtM said:

Is there a special section on starboard and port local rules. Is GRS the speaker? Oh what fun.

I thought the rule was something about boats all being on starboard regardless of your tack.

 

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1 hour ago, DtM said:

Is there a special section on starboard and port local rules. Is GRS the speaker? Oh what fun.

No, not Port & Starboard per se.

But GRS is going to add an additional presentation on how to discredit your opposition or even local race committee members when your protest is thrown out......

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News Extra.

Australian Sailing is pleased to announce the Rules session will now cover topics relevant to QLD.

1. What to do when the Protest Committee publishes two sets of Reasons.

2. Making sure the Protest Committee makes up the facts found regardless of the evidence to stop any appeal against the decision

3. How to get the chairman of the Protest Committee to threaten the other side with RRS 69 misconduct.

4. How to stop an RRS 69 inquiry.

Ms Collins as a former director of Australian Sailing the Lota Fishing and Fighting Club will address these important issues.

 

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46 minutes ago, Livia said:

News Extra.

Australian Sailing is pleased to announce the Rules session will now cover topics relevant to QLD.

1. What to do when the Protest Committee publishes two sets of Reasons.

2. Making sure the Protest Committee makes up the facts found regardless of the evidence to stop any appeal against the decision

3. How to get the chairman of the Protest Committee to threaten the other side with RRS 69 misconduct.

4. How to stop an RRS 69 inquiry.

Ms Collins as a former director of Australian Sailing the Lota Fishing and Fighting Club will address these important issues.

 

And don't forget the section on how to get AS to endorse a club's decision to ban someone from competing in club events for alledged misconduct despite having no evidence of the allegations nor having ever held a protest addressing the allegations. Never mind that this endorsement is in direct contravention of WS anti-descrimination policy.

 

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20 hours ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

"The presenter is a qualified Australian Sailing Official who is very experienced."

Obviously not someone local

I wonder if that person has a stupid moustache...

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2 hours ago, Livia said:

News Extra.

Australian Sailing is pleased to announce the Rules session will now cover topics relevant to QLD.

1. What to do when the Protest Committee publishes two sets of Reasons.

2. Making sure the Protest Committee makes up the facts found regardless of the evidence to stop any appeal against the decision

3. How to get the chairman of the Protest Committee to threaten the other side with RRS 69 misconduct.

4. How to stop an RRS 69 inquiry.

Ms Collins as a former director of Australian Sailing the Lota Fishing and Fighting Club will address these important issues.

 

Livia,Thank you for the clarification of differentiating the ‘Chairman of the Protest Committee’ as opposed to the ‘Chair Man’.It is hard to keep abreast of who’s who from the other side of our great country.

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7 hours ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

It gives his wife something to hang onto when she's banging him from behind

As you seem to now bit about this subject maybe you could enlighten us all ?

 

Pulpit

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I see that AS QLD has posted on ArseBook a reminder that their protection racket starts being enforced soon.

 

From 1 January 2022 all crew in any race will be required to be a member of an affiliated club and registered with Australian Sailing. For clubs to not have the details of the participants competing in an organised competition is contrary to that duty of care, so through the registration of participants as members (introductory or full) clubs can capture the vital details they need should an emergency arise. Safety is everyone's responsibility and membership is your clubs biggest sponsor. #sport #sailing #austsailqld #racingrulesofsailing #communityclub #safety
All Competitors as Club Members from January 2022
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16 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

I see that AS QLD has posted on ArseBook a reminder that their protection racket starts being enforced soon.

 

From 1 January 2022 all crew in any race will be required to be a member of an affiliated club and registered with Australian Sailing. For clubs to not have the details of the participants competing in an organised competition is contrary to that duty of care, so through the registration of participants as members (introductory or full) clubs can capture the vital details they need should an emergency arise. Safety is everyone's responsibility and membership is your clubs biggest sponsor. #sport #sailing #austsailqld #racingrulesofsailing #communityclub #safety
All Competitors as Club Members from January 2022

From a purely risk management perspective I can see the argument for registering crew, sadly those that Govern us (politicians and their bureaucrats) are increasingly putting more and more onus on clubs to have this information in the event of an accident. It’s the drill down approach from AS that I don’t understand or agree with. 
 

Crew lists for offshore and regattas I can accept, twilights and other racing when it’s already tough finding people - how do you get someone into the sport if the first thing they are asked for is money (to join a club)?

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Does this mean no more SailPass to at least encourage people to race? 

Already hard enough to get crew, and new people into the sport, hit them with costs, train them up, to race. 
 

With some Clubs,  Crew membership is not cheap. 

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1 hour ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

From a purely risk management perspective I can see the argument for registering crew,

Exactly what legal obligation does a club risk breaching by cot collecting names and addresses of crew on boats?

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13 minutes ago, Brass said:

Exactly what legal obligation does a club risk breaching by cot collecting names and addresses of crew on boats?

And on those lines, exactly WHAT safety benefit accrues from being a club member over & above simply providing a crew list with names & first contact phone numbers?

The contact details I understand, that's sensible. But mandating club membership? That's just a grab for money & numbers to argue for more money.

FKT

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12 minutes ago, Brass said:

Exactly what legal obligation does a club risk breaching by cot collecting names and addresses of crew on boats?

Try OH&S legislation as a starting point or sit in front of a coroner when they ask why you didn't have the information of names and contact details to enable the Police to contact next of kin.

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Just now, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And on those lines, exactly WHAT safety benefit accrues from being a club member over & above simply providing a crew list with names & first contact phone numbers?

The contact details I understand, that's sensible. But mandating club membership? That's just a grab for money & numbers to argue for more money.

FKT

My point exactly

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19 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:
34 minutes ago, Brass said:

Exactly what legal obligation does a club risk breaching by cot collecting names and addresses of crew on boats?

Try OH&S legislation as a starting point or sit in front of a coroner when they ask why you didn't have the information of names and contact details to enable the Police to contact next of kin.

Just say which Act or Regulation, and what section?

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2 hours ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

From a purely risk management perspective I can see the argument for registering crew, sadly those that Govern us (politicians and their bureaucrats) are increasingly putting more and more onus on clubs to have this information in the event of an accident. It’s the drill down approach from AS that I don’t understand or agree with. 
 

Crew lists for offshore and regattas I can accept, twilights and other racing when it’s already tough finding people - how do you get someone into the sport if the first thing they are asked for is money (to join a club)?

The crew list with contact details and next of kin info etc is a perfectly logical requirement. 
 

There after, the AS rules are nothing more than mafia tactics.

In my first year of racing, I had 4 regular day pass crew for Wednesday summer twilights. Once their cards (10 sails) were nearly filled the club started the join pressure. 3 joined and one never sailed again. The one who bailed was the only DP crew who could actually sail who I could rely on.

Recording and storing guest sailor should be considered paid for by the race entry fees and the post race bar bill.

 

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28 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

But mandating club membership? That's just a grab for money & numbers to argue for more money.

FKT

It is ALL about the numbers for when AS goes cap in hand to Government.

Money from membership/day passes is to silence clubs and stop them thinking about the true impact on them.

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3 minutes ago, Brass said:

Why?

In what way does a list of names and addresses contribute to safety?

So SAR authorities know how many bodies they need to recover and who’s door to knock on. 
 

I agree, in many ways it doesn’t add much value. However we live in a nanny state environment and if the clubs don’t make any effort to help the authorities when something goes wrong, then governments will legislate mandatory crew lists. Then you’ll find yourself having to provide crew lists to the police for family cruising or going out fishing with a mate in a tinny.

You have to play the game and AS is using the need to play ball to line it’s pockets.

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10 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

So SAR authorities know how many bodies they need to recover and who’s door to knock on. 
 

I agree, in many ways it doesn’t add much value. However we live in a nanny state environment and if the clubs don’t make any effort to help the authorities when something goes wrong, then governments will legislate mandatory crew lists. Then you’ll find yourself having to provide crew lists to the police for family cruising or going out fishing with a mate in a tinny.

You have to play the game and AS is using the need to play ball to line it’s pockets.

Sure I understand that,  but names and addresses don't make anything any safer.

IMHO, crew lists and contact details (and prolly more importantly accurate numbers)  are fine for offshore races.

For a Wednesday twilight?  You're kidding.

The day governments legislate passenger and crew manifests on their rich mates in the 60ft motorboats, then, I'll have another think about it.

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2 hours ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Try OH&S legislation as a starting point or sit in front of a coroner when they ask why you didn't have the information of names and contact details to enable the Police to contact next of kin.

Explain how OH&S applies to a yacht with no paid hands?

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And on those lines, exactly WHAT safety benefit accrues from being a club member over & above simply providing a crew list with names & first contact phone numbers?

The contact details I understand, that's sensible. But mandating club membership? That's just a grab for money & numbers to argue for more money.

FKT

Agree entirely.

Furthermore, the register is NOT being applied to Twilight's, which highlights that actually when it comes to jeopardizing revenue, then safety is NOT the primary aim.

Thereby highlighting how much of a money and power grab this actually is.

This becomes a barrier to entry to our sport. Well Done Fuckwits at AS.

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59 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

So SAR authorities know how many bodies they need to recover and who’s door to knock on. 
 

I agree, in many ways it doesn’t add much value. However we live in a nanny state environment and if the clubs don’t make any effort to help the authorities when something goes wrong, then governments will legislate mandatory crew lists. Then you’ll find yourself having to provide crew lists to the police for family cruising or going out fishing with a mate in a tinny.

You have to play the game and AS is using the need to play ball to line it’s pockets.

SAR? For a race in Sydney Harbour - or a twilight race? This pathetic prescription has nothing to do with safety. Are you serious that clubs need to have the details of all crew for every race? During COVID maybe. Have you heard of a case where someone injured in an organised inshore yacht race has not been able to be identified? 

Remember that Australia is the ONLY country in the world with this requirement.

There is no doubt that after January 1st there is pretty much 0% chance that I will race my own boat anymore. There is also 0% chance that I will be asking anyone that crews with me on yachts I skipper to show proof of their membership. As skipper and an AS member, I believe I fulfil all the requirements of Rule 46 - and I would anywhere else in the world.

I cannot believe that anyone feels that it is in any way reasonable for my children, grandchildren, their friends and my friends who don't race regularly to have to pay a club some money, so I can take them out for a twilight. Even people that have crewed for years - they give to the owner in helping with maintenance etc. Should they still have to pay when they never go back to the organising club? Which begs the question, who, if anyone, is going to police this farcical rule? If it is policed, what if any would be the penalties? DSQ, DNE, referral to a PC for a hearing under Rule 69? Will each club's RC monitor compliance themselves, or rely on the skippers of beaten yachts to complain?

Now some may say it is up to the clubs to charge what they want - even nothing. But the issue for me is that then AS has all of their contact details, and can claim them as a member anyway - is that okay with you all? I haven't had a clear answer from my club as to how that information is shared with AS - what are they allowed to do with that information?

Every member of my club I have asked are astonished that anyone could even come up with this prescription. They buy a yacht, invite people to sail with them. Why should AS get anything from those people?

Unfortunately the calibre of people running our clubs is so poor that they have stood by and allowed this to happen.

I am too old and tired to do it, but twenty years ago i would have been trying to organise a club that races using modified Coll regs, or has every "race" as a "rally". There are already races like this. In other words no affiliation with AS, as we used to have with the SSAA. I discussed with Roads and Maritime years ago that you can organise yacht races on Sydney Harbour without any affiliation to AS, or any other body. You can't use AS buoys obviously, but there are islands and ship's buoys..

As to your final point,. no, we do NOT have to play an unfair game. AS is ironically being clever in how it sells this, saying that it won't receive any of this money - the clubs will. Yes, but then participation numbers go up, so AS gets more funding - that is spent on things that have no relevance to 95% of sailors.

I will finish this rant with: I really hope a groundswell of reasonable people rises up and fights the bureaucrats. As I posted a while ago now, my father was one of two delegates from SASC that were involved in setting up the Constitution of Yachting NSW in the 1960s. I believe he would be horrified to see what started out as a small body to advise and help yachting has become a monster.

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1 minute ago, Boink said:

Agree entirely.

Furthermore, the register is NOT being applied to Twilight's, which highlights that actually when it comes to jeopardizing revenue, then safety is NOT the primary aim.

Thereby highlighting how much of a money and power grab this actually is.

This becomes a barrier to entry to our sport. Well Done Fuckwits at AS.

Sorry where does it say there is an exemption for twilights?

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32 minutes ago, mccroc said:

Explain how OH&S applies to a yacht with no paid hands?

It's not the yacht it's the club that becomes a PCBU - Person Conducting a Business or Undertaking and as such the onus is applied to the club to have the risk management strategy and duty of care in place. I'm not saying it's right I'm merely pointing out that this is what is being used as the justification.

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1 hour ago, Brass said:

Sure I understand that,  but names and addresses don't make anything any safer.

IMHO, crew lists and contact details (and prolly more importantly accurate numbers)  are fine for offshore races.

For a Wednesday twilight?  You're kidding.

The day governments legislate passenger and crew manifests on their rich mates in the 60ft motorboats, then, I'll have another think about it.

I can't disagree with you, but governments will legislate crew lists if given a reason. Don't worry, it will only apply to pleasure boating in small boats and the rich with bigger boats and paid skippers will have different rules to follow. 

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22 minutes ago, mccroc said:

Sorry where does it say there is an exemption for twilights?

I'm involved with 4 clubs.

It was written up in one of the club magazines. 1st Jan, new rules, Yada Yada yada. Based around Topyacht and all crew needing membership - but NOT required for Twilights. So Safety is NOT the priority. 

Furthermore, as pointed out above, no assurance given as to the security of the data you are providing. 

No one considers the piss poor data security that most clubs are ill equipped to handle....... Certainly no consequences when that data is hacked sold or lost.

So it's a sham, from top to bottom.

Our sport is dying in participation, but these layers add barriers and resistance to that, particularly to those trying out or considering a return, but who are light years away from boat ownership. 

Yacht club bars are like ghost towns for 99% of the time as a result. But this is not the solution.

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49 minutes ago, mccroc said:

SAR? For a race in Sydney Harbour - or a twilight race? This pathetic prescription has nothing to do with safety. Are you serious that clubs need to have the details of all crew for every race? During COVID maybe. Have you heard of a case where someone injured in an organised inshore yacht race has not been able to be identified? 

Remember that Australia is the ONLY country in the world with this requirement.

There is no doubt that after January 1st there is pretty much 0% chance that I will race my own boat anymore. There is also 0% chance that I will be asking anyone that crews with me on yachts I skipper to show proof of their membership. As skipper and an AS member, I believe I fulfil all the requirements of Rule 46 - and I would anywhere else in the world.

I cannot believe that anyone feels that it is in any way reasonable for my children, grandchildren, their friends and my friends who don't race regularly to have to pay a club some money, so I can take them out for a twilight. Even people that have crewed for years - they give to the owner in helping with maintenance etc. Should they still have to pay when they never go back to the organising club? Which begs the question, who, if anyone, is going to police this farcical rule? If it is policed, what if any would be the penalties? DSQ, DNE, referral to a PC for a hearing under Rule 69? Will each club's RC monitor compliance themselves, or rely on the skippers of beaten yachts to complain?

Now some may say it is up to the clubs to charge what they want - even nothing. But the issue for me is that then AS has all of their contact details, and can claim them as a member anyway - is that okay with you all? I haven't had a clear answer from my club as to how that information is shared with AS - what are they allowed to do with that information?

Every member of my club I have asked are astonished that anyone could even come up with this prescription. They buy a yacht, invite people to sail with them. Why should AS get anything from those people?

Unfortunately the calibre of people running our clubs is so poor that they have stood by and allowed this to happen.

I am too old and tired to do it, but twenty years ago i would have been trying to organise a club that races using modified Coll regs, or has every "race" as a "rally". There are already races like this. In other words no affiliation with AS, as we used to have with the SSAA. I discussed with Roads and Maritime years ago that you can organise yacht races on Sydney Harbour without any affiliation to AS, or any other body. You can't use AS buoys obviously, but there are islands and ship's buoys..

As to your final point,. no, we do NOT have to play an unfair game. AS is ironically being clever in how it sells this, saying that it won't receive any of this money - the clubs will. Yes, but then participation numbers go up, so AS gets more funding - that is spent on things that have no relevance to 95% of sailors.

I will finish this rant with: I really hope a groundswell of reasonable people rises up and fights the bureaucrats. As I posted a while ago now, my father was one of two delegates from SASC that were involved in setting up the Constitution of Yachting NSW in the 1960s. I believe he would be horrified to see what started out as a small body to advise and help yachting has become a monster.

As I said

 

2 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

It is ALL about the numbers for when AS goes cap in hand to Government.

Money from membership/day passes is to silence clubs and stop them thinking about the true impact on them.

BUT we live in one of the worst countries for nanny state laws. Give government an excuse and they will legislate more anti-fun rules to impact us. 

 

However, it's one thing to mandate crew lists to hopefully reduce the risk of Government intervention, it's a very different thing to charge people to be on that list. That is what we should be focusing on. 

 

 

BTW Why do you think I bought a boat that is designed for 2H racing. It certainly wasn't the manual pump toilet.

The current environment is not conducive to enticing people into racing and the new rules will make it worse. So I don't want a lack of crew to be why I don't race

 

 

 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Boink said:

 

Yacht club bars are like ghost towns for 99% of the time as a result. But this is not the solution.

Yacht club bars no longer offer the point of difference from any other bar, in fact in many cases the yacht club bar is actually more expensive to drink at because of the additional imposts put on clubs by the pub lobby - ostentatiously this is aimed at the RSL style pokie havens but has the effect of hurting the smaller clubs more. Thanks to AS here is another reason to bypass the club they so desperately want us to believe they represent.

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I dont know of many sports that allow you to compete without being a member of a club.  I can't just roll up to the local golf club and ask to play in their competitions without being a member.  I can play social golf but not compete.

I think the idea has merit but as usual a complete clusterfuck in how it is sold.  The whole duty of care and AS personal liability insurance (which is absolute crap like loss of income up to $300 per week) is bullshit.  Its all about AS saying they have increased their participation numbers.

Maybe membership should be mandated for races in which there is a pointscore series with non spinnaker events excluded.

I think the bigger question for clubs is what are they offering to make people want to join,

Some I sail with are members of Manly 16's but sail elsewhere others are country members of the RYCT but race in Sydney.  Maybe its time for clubs to look at what membership options they have available

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If AS actually gave a shit about clubs they would lobby the govt for a 50% reduction in alcohol excise for clubs. The clubs can take 25% and pass the rest onto the members. The effects would be instant and significant. I have not had a beer at RQYS in 4 or 5 years.... but that has probably got more to do with the company than the exorbitant prices.

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22 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said:

I dont know of many sports that allow you to compete without being a member of a club.  I can't just roll up to the local golf club and ask to play in their competitions without being a member.  I can play social golf but not compete.

 

What about caddies? Do they also pay to carry the clubs?

This is quite simply a money grab. The money will probably come from selling your private information more so than the sail pass fees.

 

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3 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

As I said

 

BUT we live in one of the worst countries for nanny state laws. Give government an excuse and they will legislate more anti-fun rules to impact us. 

 

However, it's one thing to mandate crew lists to hopefully reduce the risk of Government intervention, it's a very different thing to charge people to be on that list. That is what we should be focusing on. 

 

 

BTW Why do you think I bought a boat that is designed for 2H racing. It certainly wasn't the manual pump toilet.

The current environment is not conducive to enticing people into racing and the new rules will make it worse. So I don't want a lack of crew to be why I don't race

 

 

 

 

 

 

We are actually totally in agreement - I have done far more miles solo or dh than fully crewed. As someone posted on another site - I was doing the DH thing "before it became popular". (insert laughing emoji).

The only thing I would say about Government intervention is: isn't that why there is an AS? To lobby on our behalf to reassure the govt that we have good rules and safety processes. Their role surely isn't to anticipate the Spanish Inquisition, and murder us all before the govt can.

 

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2 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

I dont know of many sports that allow you to compete without being a member of a club.  I can't just roll up to the local golf club and ask to play in their competitions without being a member.  I can play social golf but not compete.

I think the idea has merit but as usual a complete clusterfuck in how it is sold.  The whole duty of care and AS personal liability insurance (which is absolute crap like loss of income up to $300 per week) is bullshit.  Its all about AS saying they have increased their participation numbers.

Maybe membership should be mandated for races in which there is a pointscore series with non spinnaker events excluded.

I think the bigger question for clubs is what are they offering to make people want to join,

Some I sail with are members of Manly 16's but sail elsewhere others are country members of the RYCT but race in Sydney.  Maybe its time for clubs to look at what membership options they have available

My argument against this club membership comparison is to say - the yacht and owner are members, the crew are guests. Also, what other sport requires one person to outlay thousands of dollars a year, plus the original cost of the boat, plus race entry fees, and then asks the guests to pay as well?

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3 minutes ago, mccroc said:

We are actually totally in agreement - I have done far more miles solo or dh than fully crewed. As someone posted on another site - I was doing the DH thing "before it became popular". (insert laughing emoji).

The only thing I would say about Government intervention is: isn't that why there is an AS? To lobby on our behalf to reassure the govt that we have good rules and safety processes. Their role surely isn't to anticipate the Spanish Inquisition, and murder us all before the govt can.

 

AS 's role is to lobby the Government for money to support elite sailors WC & Olympic dreams (and build a cushy office complex). It uses clubs and their members as justification for their budget.

Occasionally they might do things that help the other 99% of sailors, but that is clearly the exception, not the rule.

    

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24 minutes ago, mccroc said:

My argument against this club membership comparison is to say - the yacht and owner are members, the crew are guests. Also, what other sport requires one person to outlay thousands of dollars a year, plus the original cost of the boat, plus race entry fees, and then asks the guests to pay as well?

As a golf comparison the private course near me costs about 20k to join plus 5k per year, if a member invites me, as a non member, to play socially with him it would cost me $130.  However if I wanted to play in the competition I would have to be a member of a reciprocal club  I think people who are racing seriously should be members of a club, casual guests on a twilight shouldn't

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18 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said:

As a golf comparison the private course near me costs about 20k to join plus 5k per year, if a member invites me, as a non member, to play socially with him it would cost me $130.  However if I wanted to play in the competition I would have to be a member of a reciprocal club  I think people who are racing seriously should be members of a club, casual guests on a twilight shouldn't

Not really a good comparison.

Does your caddy, the golf cart steerer and the wife serving you drinks have to be members when you compete?

 

If you want to compare golf to sailing, then each golfer is the equivalent of a boat owner and his bag/buggy, the boat. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said:

As a golf comparison the private course near me costs about 20k to join plus 5k per year, if a member invites me to play with him it would cost me $130.  I think people who are racing seriously should be members of a club, casual guests on a twilight shouldn't

Golf comparison - let's have another go. So I go and play at a golf club and have to pay. Well yes, because the Golf club supplies the course - the fairways the greens etc. A sailing club does not own the water. They have to share it with power boats, kayaks etc.

But okay - so if serious racers should pay - who should they pay? Has AS made clear if say you have a SailPass with RSYS that it allows you to race at MHYC? Should these serious racers be forced to pay a club that they never go to? What about a club that doesn't have a clubhouse - what are the crew paying for?

I mean AS is saying they don't get the money, so who should. Is this why the clubs are agreeing against the wishes of their members - oh that's right, the clubs are members of AS, we're not.

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19 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

Is there another sport that requires so much investment in the equipment by the competitor and so little investment by the club, with competition taking place in a public space?

Rally driving

Gliding

Water skiing

Speedboat racing

As said before you shouldn't have to force people to join a club, you should make it attractive for them to want to join

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25 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said:

Rally driving 

Gliding

Water skiing

Speedboat racing

As said before you shouldn't have to force people to join a club, you should make it attractive for them to want to join

I would argue that with the exception of gliding, the others these days require the competition areas closed off. Not that it matters.

29 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said:

should make it attractive for them to want to join

That it is the key point...

The deal should be that the boat owners bring in the people, either directly or by being a boat in need of crew and the clubs should then figure out how to keep the people coming in and catch a few. AS should butt out of this matter unless the clubs ask for help rather than being dictated to. 

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50 minutes ago, mccroc said:

what are the crew paying for?

Supposedly some mythical insurance.

I would not mind that if my insurance company gave me discounts on the personal injury part of my policy because their risk would be lower when I sail at AS affiliated club events.

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5 hours ago, Abbo said:

If AS actually gave a shit about clubs they would lobby the govt for a 50% reduction in alcohol excise for clubs. The clubs can take 25% and pass the rest onto the members. The effects would be instant and significant. I have not had a beer at RQYS in 4 or 5 years.... but that has probably got more to do with the company than the exorbitant prices.

Free piss for everyone will be the cornerstone of my election platform. 

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2 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

As a golf comparison the private course near me costs about 20k to join plus 5k per year, 

Yes but the Sydney clubs don't have to mow the harbour.

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We are talking about Sailing here.

Not Golf nor even Golf V2.0, not Motorsport, not Grouse Shooting, not Horse sport, not anything.......

Sailing.

Its unique, quirky, time hungry, complex, expensive and elitist. Trying to convince it's otherwise is bullshit (Especially when every partner of AS is lured by the high socio economic value of the demographic).

The bigger the boat the more all of this applies. 

Start in an Oppy or a Bic - simple low cost, fun, easy & inclusive etc

But By the time you are doing Sydney Hobart on a TP52, those same things are diminished, and those first descriptions start to assert (along with all the posturing and wank factor).

But for this forum we are talking about yachts or keelboats.

The owners love to win. Their boat & name goes in the club record (not the crew) and they get to bask in whatever glory they are seeking.

It's always been recognised that good owners get good crew, either by talent or credit card or whatever. They set the program tone. (Competitive, fun, drunk, hot girls only need apply, fast, overseas, all expenses paid.......delete as appropriate)

Natural selection is powerfully at work here. Arsehole owners, better be very talented sailors or they end up with no or inexperienced crews......

Crew turn up; park miles away, rarely get facilities, long hours and don't get a say in much; certainly not on club AGM's or anything that might make them feel like they belong or that they are a stakeholder in anyway. 

So why should they be stuck for hundreds of dollars worth of utterly meaningless crew membership? We already support the marine industry in many ways, and spend handsomely in hospitality - just possibly at venues with some (or even any) eye candy, conversation and better prices....... 

So when they dress all this stuff as being for better safety, yet don't apply it for the races in partial darkness and where alcohol is involved (Twilights), how can it not be seen as a hypocritical money grab?

The owners have no change to their outlay, so cannot understand why there is a groundswell of unease amongst the crew, who will slowly melt away as being busy or unavailable. 

2 handed racing and sellers of fancy gyroscope autopilots are going to have a bright future....... But stories of large rowdy prize giving parties will only be  told in historical context.......

Well done Australian Sailing, excellent work.

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So what if you don’t buy into this?

1) Gather the crew for a Wednesday twilight casual sail, and start at the gun, well below the pin.

2) Sail around a few “navigational marks” that just happen to follow the same sequence as the twilight racers. Be gracious, dip early and cheerfully wave at the racers as you follow them around while sinking a tonne of beer.

3) Complete your casual cruise by sailing around the finish line on your way home.

4) Support your club by having dinner and drinks at the bistro.

5) Comply in every other aspect with entry requirements for the point score or ocean events.

6) Send hookers and Moët to the chairperson of the club’s disciplinary committee.

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50 minutes ago, Jason AUS said:

So what if you don’t buy into this?

1) Gather the crew for a Wednesday twilight casual sail, and start at the gun, well below the pin.

This isn't the dumbest idea ever.

What makes someone 'crew'? If I'm not being paid, surely I'm a guest, not crew.

I like sailing - and sailing against other boats. But I'm not really a competitor, in the sense that I get anything if the boat I'm on wins. The owner is really the only competitor. I seem to remember being on board boats that have won stuff, but I don't have any trophys, or my name in any record books anywhere.

So why can't the owner register themselves as the only crew... but also have half a dozen guests on board? So the boat and the owner are competing, but the guests are just along for the ride? So the owner might chose to sail past an anchored boat at a particular time, but as a guest I'm just along to drink beer and pull the odd string.

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53 minutes ago, Se7en said:

This isn't the dumbest idea ever.

What makes someone 'crew'? If I'm not being paid, surely I'm a guest, not crew.

I like sailing - and sailing against other boats. But I'm not really a competitor, in the sense that I get anything if the boat I'm on wins. The owner is really the only competitor. I seem to remember being on board boats that have won stuff, but I don't have any trophys, or my name in any record books anywhere.

So why can't the owner register themselves as the only crew... but also have half a dozen guests on board? So the boat and the owner are competing, but the guests are just along for the ride? So the owner might chose to sail past an anchored boat at a particular time, but as a guest I'm just along to drink beer and pull the odd string.

I should have added “buy a beer for the race committee volunteers.”

Always.

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It's just about the numbers game for AS - they know that the more 'people' they can have on their books the more money they get for the high performance program - simple as that. No other hidden motive or altruistic purpose of supporting the clubs - purely and simply it's about growing the AS empire - just have a look at their staff list it's almost as long as the public services'. 

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10 hours ago, Se7en said:

This isn't the dumbest idea ever.

What makes someone 'crew'? If I'm not being paid, surely I'm a guest, not crew.

I like sailing - and sailing against other boats. But I'm not really a competitor, in the sense that I get anything if the boat I'm on wins. The owner is really the only competitor. I seem to remember being on board boats that have won stuff, but I don't have any trophys, or my name in any record books anywhere.

So why can't the owner register themselves as the only crew... but also have half a dozen guests on board? So the boat and the owner are competing, but the guests are just along for the ride? So the owner might chose to sail past an anchored boat at a particular time, but as a guest I'm just along to drink beer and pull the odd string.

Technically there are only two types of people besides the Master on a boat. 'Passengers' that take no part in the operation of the vessel and 'Crew' who do. AS need to amend their definitions to encompass all who boat. That way they can get a few bucks from anyone who gets on a ferry as well. It is fair given that they do just as much for a city cat passenger as they do for someone who races every weekend.

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13 hours ago, Boink said:

Arsehole owners, better be very talented sailors or they end up with no or inexperienced crews......

Nah there are plenty of absolute cunts who pay for good sailors to win them trophies. Pro's are basically hookers who sell their bodies to the highest bidder. There are a few guys at my old club that could tell you that a fuckwits cock tastes the same as a good guys. 

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22 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Technically there are only two types of people besides the Master on a boat. 'Passengers' that take no part in the operation of the vessel and 'Crew' who do. AS need to amend their definitions to encompass all who boat. That way they can get a few bucks from anyone who gets on a ferry as well. It is fair given that they do just as much for a city cat passenger as they do for someone who races every weekend.

So does a passenger automatically become crew as soon as they hold a line? What about if I just sit on the side of the boat, and occasionally swap sides?

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1 hour ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Unless you're the Australian cricket captain and text it to someone!

He should have known that a wicket keeper can never bowl a maiden over. He was hoping she would face one at the members end.

 

thank you thank you, I will be here all week...

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5 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Nah there are plenty of absolute cunts who pay for good sailors to win them trophies. Pro's are basically hookers who sell their bodies to the highest bidder. There are a few guys at my old club that could tell you that a fuckwits cock tastes the same as a good guys. 

That's not the crew who I am talking about. Jizz suckers are everywhere, work, sport and will guzzle regardless.

Think the good quality amateur crew who actually make up the meat & potatoes of big boat sailing. Experienced and knowledgeable. But who are getting squeezed by family and partner pressure for their time and who extra hurdles and barriers means that they can get much better value shits & giggles by going surfing, kite surfing or a hundred other activities, without having to line the greedy pockets of AS and clubs who give nothing in return. 

Owners expect to pay for the privilege, but don't spread the Rort to those that silently enable..........

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Between AS, SailSys and club rules its getting pretty hard to figure out if you're actually correctly entered.

Fleets are getting smaller, and every boat is struggling to find semi-regular amateur crew.

Soon we won't need handicaps as fleets get to 5 and under as you'll be able to predict the winner for the wind conditions, and every time a new boat joins they will either be 30 mins in front or behind the whole fleet due to a random handicap allocation. 

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4 hours ago, Xtasea said:

Soon we won't need handicaps as fleets get to 5 and under as you'll be able to predict the winner for the wind conditions, and every time a new boat joins they will either be 30 mins in front or behind the whole fleet due to a random handicap allocation. 

Welcome to Hobart, where we always know who's gonna win. I'll give you a hint, the name sounds like midnight rambler

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On 11/23/2021 at 9:16 PM, Fintho said:

Welcome to Hobart, where we always know who's gonna win. I'll give you a hint, the name sounds like midnight rambler

Tenterfield Saddler?

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The clubs with mostly older age demographic members, who run Wags/Sags for their members, who have great difficulty getting regular "crew" ( more like helpers) onto their boats, that run their Social Sailing under ColRegs ( yes, we can, and, no, you dont have to use RRS) are issuing the Sail Pass for unlimited sails, and for 365 days.

 

nothing in the Rule 46 blurb, has any max  time limit, or min $ amount, so, why not!

just give out the SailPass for free!

 

besides, those that use ColRegs to sail, dont come under any rules prescriptions if not using RRS, ir Rule 46.

it's just Social Sailing, after all.

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7 hours ago, JasonL said:

The clubs with mostly older age demographic members, who run Wags/Sags for their members, who have great difficulty getting regular "crew" ( more like helpers) onto their boats, that run their Social Sailing under ColRegs ( yes, we can, and, no, you dont have to use RRS) are issuing the Sail Pass for unlimited sails, and for 365 days.

 

nothing in the Rule 46 blurb, has any max  time limit, or min $ amount, so, why not!

just give out the SailPass for free!

 

besides, those that use ColRegs to sail, dont come under any rules prescriptions if not using RRS, ir Rule 46.

it's just Social Sailing, after all.

Until lets say some directors of a badly run club need to cover up their own incompetence and start charging for everything to hide the losses.

 

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7 hours ago, JasonL said:

The clubs with mostly older age demographic members, who run Wags/Sags for their members, who have great difficulty getting regular "crew" ( more like helpers) onto their boats, that run their Social Sailing under ColRegs ( yes, we can, and, no, you dont have to use RRS) are issuing the Sail Pass for unlimited sails, and for 365 days.

 

nothing in the Rule 46 blurb, has any max  time limit, or min $ amount, so, why not!

just give out the SailPass for free!

 

besides, those that use ColRegs to sail, dont come under any rules prescriptions if not using RRS, ir Rule 46.

it's just Social Sailing, after all.

The only problem with that is the IRPCS don't have a section for mark rounding. And if you are racing under the Col regs, it has nothing to do with AS so why would you need a sail pass?

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12 hours ago, LB 15 said:

The only problem with that is the IRPCS don't have a section for mark rounding. And if you are racing under the Col regs, it has nothing to do with AS so why would you need a sail pass?

What is there to stop a non-AS affiliated club from following the racing rules prescribed by WS.

 

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3 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

BTW is there a summary of the "Prescriptions of Australian Sailing" added to the RRS?

I'd be interested to know if they made any positive changes. 

ok, I see it's written in blue...

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1 hour ago, The Dark Knight said:

What is there to stop a non-AS affiliated club from following the racing rules prescribed by WS.

 

I think it's something to do with copyright?

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6 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

What is there to stop a non-AS affiliated club from following the racing rules prescribed by WS.

 

Or, what is there, to stop a currently AS affiliated clug from pissing the RRS off, and just sticking to ColRegs, 

quite a few do, AS tut-tut about it, but thats it

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5 hours ago, Jethrow said:

I think it's something to do with copyright?

Australian Sailing does not hold the copyright to RRS

the RYA in Scotland? does, 'sides, what are they gonna do,,, send out an "Och Aye Laddie" letter?

there a a few clubs that do use RRS, not affiliated, nothing has been said. ( not going to disclose,,, they can do the research themselves,,, f they can.)

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10 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

What is there to stop a non-AS affiliated club from following the racing rules prescribed by WS.

 

Absolutely nothing except there would be no avenue to appeal a decision of a club protest committee. I can't see AS taking action to stop the use of their Intellectual Property.

Wow- its not often you get to use AS and 'intellectual' in the same sentence!

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