Australian Sailing

[Boink 838]

15 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Ah no... not even close

 

Can you explain your comment about fighting the Lost War then?

There is a distinct difference between losing a battle or battles, but still going on to win the War....... it's a matter of perspective and resilience.

[LB 15 6,524]

23 hours ago, Rum Monkey said:

so my membership fees and hardstand fees and marina berth fees dont pay for anything there?

Well some of it went towards hiring lawyers to kick out friends of yours. The rest went towards paying off debt due to incompetent management. Fuck all goes towards junior sailing.

[Xtasea 25]

On 12/15/2021 at 7:38 AM, Couta said:

does

Looks like 88 berths up for sale/lease currently at that club. 

https://www.rqys.com.au/marina-ship-yard-services/berth-sales/

[Abbo 90]

1 hour ago, Xtasea said:

Looks like 88 berths up for sale/lease currently at that club. 

https://www.rqys.com.au/marina-ship-yard-services/berth-sales/

Can't give them away....

 

[Rum Monkey 63]

5 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Well some of it went towards hiring lawyers to kick out friends of yours. The rest went towards paying off debt due to incompetent management. Fuck all goes towards junior sailing.

you forgot worlds best location for a sailing school

[Rotnest Express 151]

6 hours ago, Xtasea said:

Looks like 88 berths up for sale/lease currently at that club. 

https://www.rqys.com.au/marina-ship-yard-services/berth-sales/

How many Sail Passes do they throw in with a Berth?

[Jethrow 411]

1 hour ago, Rotnest Express said:

How many Sail Passes do they throw in with a Berth?

They pre-charge for a dozen every week in anticipation!

 

[shaggybaxter 2,744]

Make that two sponsors that have now visited this thread....

 

[Fah Kiew Tu 3,239]

19 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Make that two sponsors that have now visited this thread....

 

Yeah but unless they pull their money, nothing changes.

FKT

[shaggybaxter 2,744]

1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yeah but unless they pull their money, nothing changes.

FKT

Yep. 

 

[Jethrow 411]

Wasn't something supposed to be happening on Friday? A ruling or judgement maybe or a new matter starting? I went back looking for the post but couldn't find it...

[Recidivist 948]

49 minutes ago, Jethrow said:

Wasn't something supposed to be happening on Friday? A ruling or judgement maybe or a new matter starting? I went back looking for the post but couldn't find it...

It was a post by Livia in the "Which way to go" thread.  I suspect he was referencing the Mark Hipgrave/Matt Allen matter.  I checked the National Sports Tribunal website, but nothing there, and naturally there is no mention of the matter on AS's website.  We may have to wait until an insider leaks some information - these organisations don't appear to believe in the principle of transparency.

[LionessRacing 670]

On 12/17/2021 at 12:38 AM, Boink said:

Can you explain your comment about fighting the Lost War then?

There is a distinct difference between losing a battle or battles, but still going on to win the War....... it's a matter of perspective and resilience.

When you are fighting a war, that fundamentally you can never "win", it becomes a matter of attrition, managing losses, and eventually developing an "exit strategy." Whether you are attempting to battle "heresy", licentious behavior, zealots or addiction, such wars are fundamentally unwinnable, you may keep the battles far from the nice neighborhoods, but the costs will come home. 

You have costs of engagement in fighting and costs of losses to the "war". If fighting is more expensive than acceptance you have better have a good reason to continue, such as existential threat being thwarted, delayed or put off while more permanent victory can be pursued. Leaving "East of Suez" or departing from Kabul, as much as decriminalizing drugs and prostitution become choices that accept one set of costs while mitigating others. 

Realistically the value (to society) of a life, singular and multiple is part of that calculation, and needs to be offset against the cost to society of fighting, both direct and opportunity. 

In the case of Australia, the costs to the society of disruption, lockdown, and state tyranny are probably higher than the value of the lives "saved", had less stringent measures been taken, especially as the pandemic is predictably mutating to be endemic.

Your society, your government and your heritage; the acceptance of the imposition of travel bans, concentration camps and the police state have historical lessons that apparently were not taught to your population. The gentle suffocation of the nanny state is a sad thing to see from afar. 

It's not a new problem  

[DtM 694]

Thank you for your concern Lioness, but I would much rather live here than in the failed state of the good ole USA.

Concentration camps and a police state, really, fuck off.

[Abbo 90]

Lioness, you don't have the first fucking clue what you are talking about pal. I don't think there is a single sane and rational person in Australia that would trade places with the USA. You have one of the highest death rates on earth and are doing no better economically than we are, in fact quite possibly worse. Besides this is a sailing thread, take your political bullshit elsewhere thanks.

[Wright Way 202]

3 minutes ago, Abbo said:

Lioness, you don't have the first fucking clue what you are talking about pal. I don't think there is a single sane and rational person in Australia that would trade places with the USA. You have one of the highest death rates on earth and are doing no better economically than we are, in fact quite possibly worse. Besides this is a sailing thread, take your political bullshit elsewhere thanks.

And that was before covid came along. 

[Fah Kiew Tu 3,239]

6 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Your society, your government and your heritage; the acceptance of the imposition of travel bans, concentration camps and the police state have historical lessons that apparently were not taught to your population. The gentle suffocation of the nanny state is a sad thing to see from afar. 

It's not a new problem  

You simply have no fucking idea.

We have none of those at all. Zero. You guys have the concentration camps - Guantanamo Bay comes to mind, plus those 'secret' prisons where you sent your kidnapped victims (many of whom richly deserved it but that's not the point here).

I supported the travel bans in the short term while a decent response was developed. It's fully constitutional here in Australia. Now, I don't - yes, we're going to take a massive medical/hospital hit, but this is ONE COUNTRY and fully vaxed people should have full right of movement.

As for following the example set by the USA - fuck off. You guys demonstrate over and over again that WRT public health, public access to hospital systems, health cover and the like, you're a shining example to the rest of the planet of what NOT to do. Your system is FUCKED.

And that was BEFORE the marching morons demonstrated that they'd rather believe medically ignorant, incompetent rabble-rousers than qualified medical experts and refuse to get vaccinated.

Fortunately they're killing themselves off and the more that die from their wilful ignorance and stupidity, the better. Preferably sooner rather than later.

FKT

[MR.CLEAN 4,187]

11 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

 

Fortunately they're killing themselves off and the more that die from their wilful ignorance and stupidity, the better. Preferably sooner rather than later.

FKT

5 Republicans for every Democrat at this point. You can see the smarter right wingers trying to pull back off the antivax position, but even trump can’t reverse it now. And it is one of only two factors that may save the democratic congress next year. All those internal polling assumptions are based on the most recent election numbers, not the numbers that we will see after another 250k, the vast majority of them republican voters, meet the vent and then their maker.

Neil de Grasse Tyson tweeted the first sentence I wrote above almost a month ago, then deleted it almost immediately. I do not believe he deleted It because of backlash, but out of civic responsibility.  It is far better for the country for antivaxxers to be selected out by nature than it is to try to reform them.  
 

also the most deaths now are in the highest voting demographics, in places like Florida, Texas, Georgia…

[Abbo 90]

5 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

5 Republicans for every Democrat at this point. You can see the smarter right wingers trying to pull back off the antivax position, but even trump can’t reverse it now. And it is one of only two factors that may save the democratic congress next year. All those internal polling assumptions are based on the most recent election numbers, not the numbers that we will see after another 250k, the vast majority of them republican voters, meet the vent and then their maker.

Neil de Grasse Tyson tweeted the first sentence I wrote above almost a month ago, then deleted it almost immediately. I do not believe he deleted It because of backlash, but out of civic responsibility.  It is far better for the country for antivaxxers to be selected out by nature than it is to try to reform them.  
 

also the most deaths now are in the highest voting demographics, in places like Florida, Texas, Georgia…

Natural selection for the modern age.....

 

[JohnMB 560]

4 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

5 Republicans for every Democrat at this point.

 

You do know that this is because the secret liberal elites in the US and China conspired to create a weaponized virus that would secretively attack Trump supporters, because he is the only person who is able to stand up to china, right. They are using the 5G signals to read their social media feed to identify them and activate the virus.

This is al being controlled using the bird drones.

[MR.CLEAN 4,187]

The incompetence of bad managers can often go unnoticed for years if they have people covering for them, provided things don’t get too hard. When the shit hits the fan, leaders motivated by things other than the desire to help their residents don’t usually do the right thing. We saw what happened in 2020 to places like Brazil and the US because of the incompetence of men who surrounded themselves not by experts but by loyalists. Erdogan did ok with the pandemic and then sent turkey into recession this month with his monetary policy, after losing all his experts and relying on loyalists. 
 

Governing is fucking hard, and luckily sheer stupidity is often self-limiting, though messy. 

11 minutes ago, Abbo said:

Natural selection for the modern age.....

 

 

[Rotnest Express 151]

2 hours ago, Abbo said:

Lioness, you don't have the first fucking clue what you are talking about pal. I don't think there is a single sane and rational person in Australia that would trade places with the USA. You have one of the highest death rates on earth and are doing no better economically than we are, in fact quite possibly worse. Besides this is a sailing thread, take your political bullshit elsewhere thanks.

Paging Mr LB kindly pick up the guest phone in the foyer.

[Abbo 90]

47 minutes ago, Rotnest Express said:

Paging Mr LB kindly pick up the guest phone in the foyer.

Club politics aside of course! 

[LionessRacing 670]

 

21 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And that was BEFORE the marching morons demonstrated that they'd rather believe medically ignorant, incompetent rabble-rousers than qualified medical experts and refuse to get vaccinated.

Fortunately they're killing themselves off and the more that die from their wilful ignorance and stupidity, the better. Preferably sooner rather than later.

Rather harsh of you to castigate the BLM and ANTIFA mobs, but then again they are morons as you note, and have followed the ignorance and arrogance of their rabble rousing leaders to the point of electing a doddering incompetent child sniffer while despoiling their neighborhoods and driving out the few businesses that would have provided goods and services. 

As for killing themselves off, that's pretty much been accomplished courtesy of some of the Blue Governors/Mayors forcing people into Nursing homes and mandating stay at home policies that concentrated people. Individuals who subsequently make decisions for themselves, take understood risks and reap consequences as individuals. 

Ironic that one size doesn't fit all in a large diverse country. 

As for Police State, when the Police are arresting people who escape from internment camps, you can call it what you want... 

As for concentration camps, Yes we have Gitmo, and no doubt funded others elsewhere. As you note, that's a separate discussion. We don't (Yet) have sanitariums setup for the isolation of unvaccinated, nor even for those who are known positive, not since then days of Tuberculosis or the Nisei during WWII anyway. The NY State legislature had a bill on the floor, but it was pulled. As for Oz, I am not there, but at least the NYT seems to think you have them and ABC as well, describing it as a holiday, which for you guys, it might be. The Daily Mail

 

Looks like loads of fun 

 

[Rotnest Express 151]

Quarantine Beach in Sydney near Manly.Opened in 1828 only 40 years after the First Fleet arrived.This shit is hardly new.Just rehashing proven prevention remedies.It’s not rocket science.

[Fah Kiew Tu 3,239]

1 hour ago, Rotnest Express said:

Quarantine Beach in Sydney near Manly.Opened in 1828 only 40 years after the First Fleet arrived.This shit is hardly new.Just rehashing proven prevention remedies.It’s not rocket science.

Quarantine Bay on Bruny Island is ~6NM from my place, Tasmania's quarantine station. Lots of people were there after WW1 because of the Spanish influenza.

Quarantine stations have a very long history and it demonstrates either the ignorance/poor education or utter political bias/idiocy of Lioness if he thinks differently.

Fuck's sake, what was that island just off of New York City used for all those years?

And it's funny how 5 Republican voters are dying for every 1 Democrat if they're so bright, hey? Let's hope that trend continues or better still doubles. Because stupidity has consequences, and wilful ignorance is functionally indistinguishable from stupidity.

FKT

[Abbo 90]

2 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

 

Rather harsh of you to castigate the BLM and ANTIFA mobs, but then again they are morons as you note, and have followed the ignorance and arrogance of their rabble rousing leaders to the point of electing a doddering incompetent child sniffer while despoiling their neighborhoods and driving out the few businesses that would have provided goods and services. 

As for killing themselves off, that's pretty much been accomplished courtesy of some of the Blue Governors/Mayors forcing people into Nursing homes and mandating stay at home policies that concentrated people. Individuals who subsequently make decisions for themselves, take understood risks and reap consequences as individuals. 

Ironic that one size doesn't fit all in a large diverse country. 

As for Police State, when the Police are arresting people who escape from internment camps, you can call it what you want... 

As for concentration camps, Yes we have Gitmo, and no doubt funded others elsewhere. As you note, that's a separate discussion. We don't (Yet) have sanitariums setup for the isolation of unvaccinated, nor even for those who are known positive, not since then days of Tuberculosis or the Nisei during WWII anyway. The NY State legislature had a bill on the floor, but it was pulled. As for Oz, I am not there, but at least the NYT seems to think you have them and ABC as well, describing it as a holiday, which for you guys, it might be. The Daily Mail

 

Looks like loads of fun 

 

Did you even read the ABC or Daily Mail articles you muppet? Both articles are very positive about Howard Springs, which is a disused workers camp. Quarantining there is a CHOICE that a lot of people made BECAUSE there is far more freedom of movement and fresh air compared to normal hotel quarantine. Are you a fucking imbecile or just plain ignorant? Or just a rabid Fox "news" watcher? 

 

But please go on, I love being lectured to by someone from a country that has one of the worst covid responses in the western world. Freedom!!!!! Dumbass. Even China and Russia kicked your arse in their covid response. You fuckwits are the laughing stock of the western world.

 

 

 

[Zonker 5,247]

On 12/10/2021 at 3:31 PM, Rotnest Express said:

to carry 111 litres of fuel at the start...

Is there any requirement to have any aboard when you finish? Surely you can run the engine to charge the batteries. Steadily. In the first 24 hours....

[DtM 694]

5 hours ago, Abbo said:

Did you even read the ABC or Daily Mail articles you muppet? Both articles are very positive about Howard Springs, which is a disused workers camp. Quarantining there is a CHOICE that a lot of people made BECAUSE there is far more freedom of movement and fresh air compared to normal hotel quarantine. Are you a fucking imbecile or just plain ignorant? Or just a rabid Fox "news" watcher? 

 

But please go on, I love being lectured to by someone from a country that has one of the worst covid responses in the western world. Freedom!!!!! Dumbass. Even China and Russia kicked your arse in their covid response. You fuckwits are the laughing stock of the western world.

 

 

 

Abbo, not sure that the us being a laughing stock is limited to the western world.

Internment camps, what bullshit.

And the police chasing people who decide not to obey the law, how unusual. Only here we don't shoot them.

 

[Recidivist 948]

On 12/21/2021 at 11:35 PM, LionessRacing said:

......

In the case of Australia, the costs to the society of disruption, lockdown, and state tyranny are probably higher than the value of the lives "saved", had less stringent measures been taken, especially as the pandemic is predictably mutating to be endemic.

Your society, your government and your heritage; the acceptance of the imposition of travel bans, concentration camps and the police state have historical lessons that apparently were not taught to your population. The gentle suffocation of the nanny state is a sad thing to see from afar. 

It's not a new problem  

This HAS too be a piss-take.  Lioness used to be a sensible poster - or am I thinking of someone else?

[Gorn FRANTIC!! 504]

2 hours ago, Recidivist said:

This HAS too be a piss-take.  Lioness used to be a sensible poster - or am I thinking of someone else?

He's been a fuckwit from day one, evidenced by the amount of bullshit electronics plus expedition he deemed necessary to sail his fucking 2kn barge in a small estuary.

[Hitchhiker 1,154]

@LionessRacing

Here you go.....https://sonichits.com/video/Sunny_Ledfurd/Myrtle_Beach

[bigrpowr 268]

On 12/18/2021 at 1:19 PM, shaggybaxter said:

Yep. 

 

not to derail, and i'm sure it wont, but since we were talking about this earlier in the thread,  took my 911 back to the track and scored a snowman, even packing the childseat still in the back seat. thought you would like this-

 

[The Dark Knight 1,242]

1 hour ago, bigrpowr said:

not to derail, and i'm sure it wont, but since we were talking about this earlier in the thread,  took my 911 back to the track and scored a snowman, even packing the childseat still in the back seat. thought you would like this-

 

Do you ever take it around corners?

[Mid 4,414]

On 12/23/2021 at 4:10 AM, LionessRacing said:

Looks like loads of fun 

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/inside-the-nt-facilities-where-coronavirus-evacuees-are-being-quarantined/8226655b-cd50-41cc-9291-56798131db49

On 12/23/2021 at 4:10 AM, LionessRacing said:

Police are arresting people who escape from internment camps,

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-02/nt-covid-howard-springs-quarantine-escapes-calls-for-explanation/100668548

[Mid 4,414]

8 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

corners?

sort the men from the boys ....

[shaggybaxter 2,744]

On 12/24/2021 at 1:37 PM, bigrpowr said:

not to derail, and i'm sure it wont, but since we were talking about this earlier in the thread,  took my 911 back to the track and scored a snowman, even packing the childseat still in the back seat. thought you would like this-

 

I did like this. Thanks Bigr! We’ve a break till the next meet in February so I want to have a go at tuning the 4 link next. I don’t think it’s right, we’re sucking the diff up and the rear of the body down. I want it to be the opposite where we’re pushing the diff into the track on launch.

That’s one helluva street car mate.

SB

 

[TheUltimateSockPuppet 366]

Looks like the Japanese Dog Fucker with the case of worms is doing ok in S2H. Sort of never like to wish anyone ill but I hope the mast breaks.

[Recidivist 948]

30 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Looks like the Japanese Dog Fucker with the case of worms is doing ok in S2H. Sort of never like to wish anyone ill but I hope the mast breaks.

"Japanese Dog Fucker with the case of worms" is a wonderful description, but I'm going to need another hint as to whom we are discussing ....

Oh, wait - I think I've worked it out .... carry on.

[DELETED 208]

WTF...:-D

[(p)Irate 161]

Does anyone have the AS vs Hipgrave hearing details and is prepared to post them here?

[mccroc 312]

Just got emailed these from Mark Hipgrave - he said " feel free to send on" Interesting reading.29.12.2021%20-%20Tribunal%20Letter%20to%20Parties%20and%20AS.pdf29.12.2021%20-%20Decision%20-%20AS%20MPP%20Complaint%20-%20Allen%20et%20al%20v%20Hipgrave.pdf

[The Dark Knight 1,242]

Quote

 

The Complaint alleged that Mr Hipgrave’s actions in creating and circulating the

video contravened the MPP in an historically unprecedented manner. The Video

is said to constitute “bullying of the complainants”, to be a “repeated action as it

was widely circulated via email and continues to be viewed”

 

 

So it must still be on the site....

 

 

[(p)Irate 161]

"The Complaint stated that the video is seriously defamatory of Mr Allen in its 
depiction of him as an enraged Hitler, that it ridicules him and carries imputations of him including that he is megalomaniacal, dictatorial, irrationally obsessed with winning the S2H to the point he would eliminate competition."

[Recidivist 948]

4 hours ago, mccroc said:

Just got emailed these from Mark Hipgrave - he said " feel free to send on" Interesting reading.29.12.2021%20-%20Tribunal%20Letter%20to%20Parties%20and%20AS.pdf29.12.2021%20-%20Decision%20-%20AS%20MPP%20Complaint%20-%20Allen%20et%20al%20v%20Hipgrave.pdf

Thanks mccroc for posting those.  Interesting reading.  My impression, without wishing to in any way impugn the professional integrity of the tribunal members, is that this what might be colloquially called a "stitchup", where the answer is clear, but we must rationalise our way to reaching it.  The decision is very thorough, but might as well have been written by the complainants' lawyers - all the complainants' contentions were adopted and none of the respondents.

This is personal opinion only, based on a cursory reading.  My opinion may change as further information comes to light.  And I don't have any money anyway.

Edit to add: and the whole thing has the appearance of having been stage-managed by AS as well.

[Abbo 90]

11 minutes ago, (p)Irate said:

"The Complaint stated that the video is seriously defamatory of Mr Allen in its 
depiction of him as an enraged Hitler, that it ridicules him and carries imputations of him including that he is megalomaniacal, dictatorial, irrationally obsessed with winning the S2H to the point he would eliminate competition."

So I guess that's the rub right there.... is it really defamation if it's actually rather accurate?

[Livia 1,086]

The strange thing is that I have never had a Court ,Tribunal or Arbitrator hand down a decision on 29 December, ever, in 30 years.

Guess someone made a phone call!

[(p)Irate 161]

"The MPP applies to members irrespective of whether or not the member bound was participating in an AS sanctioned event at the time of the conduct complained of, and there is no need to invoke Article 3.9 of the MPP."

It's bad enough that my employer thinks it has jurisdiction over every aspect of my life, whether connected to my work or not, but now my sailing clubs and AS think they can too.

[(p)Irate 161]

the MPP says “Frustration at an official… or sporting body should never be communicated on social networking websites. These issues should instead be addressed – in a written or verbal statement or a complaint – to the relevant controlling club, league or peak sporting body.” 

That's this thread stuffed then.

[Livia 1,086]

40 minutes ago, (p)Irate said:

"The MPP applies to members irrespective of whether or not the member bound was participating in an AS sanctioned event at the time of the conduct complained of, and there is no need to invoke Article 3.9 of the MPP."

It's bad enough that my employer thinks it has jurisdiction over every aspect of my life, whether connected to my work or not, but now my sailing clubs and AS think they can too.

This is the real problem with the MPP.

It will simply be used as a tool of political retribution or political protection.

As always, tools and procedures introduced for defence of things become tools of offence.

[The Dark Knight 1,242]

25 minutes ago, (p)Irate said:

the MPP says “Frustration at an official… or sporting body should never be communicated on social networking websites. These issues should instead be addressed – in a written or verbal statement or a complaint – to the relevant controlling club, league or peak sporting body.” 

That's this thread stuffed then.

My old club tried to silence issues/incompetence by strongly pushing for members to write directly to the GM/Commodore/GC. Let oblivious members find out something that should be fixed or improved, no way...

[Rotnest Express 151]

Are the Tribunal members volunteers or is it a paid gig?Looking at the  initials after the names of the Tribunal members if they are not volunteering their time every hour of hearing or deliberation would be running upwards of AUD2K which would have to generate a AUD150 K bill.I seriously hope my AS dues are not paying for this farce.

[Livia 1,086]

1 minute ago, Rotnest Express said:

Are the Tribunal members volunteers or is it a paid gig?Looking at the  initials after the names of the Tribunal members if they are not volunteering their time every hour of hearing or deliberation would be running upwards of AUD2K which would have to generate a AUD150 K bill.I seriously hope my AS dues are not paying for this farce.

On the clock and yes!

[Rotnest Express 151]

1 minute ago, Livia said:

On the clock and yes!

Are my numbers close Livia?

[mccroc 312]

2 minutes ago, Rotnest Express said:

Are the Tribunal members volunteers or is it a paid gig?Looking at the  initials after the names of the Tribunal members if they are not volunteering their time every hour of hearing or deliberation would be running upwards of AUD2K which would have to generate a AUD150 K bill.I seriously hope my AS dues are not paying for this farce.

They would have to be paid. All I can say after reading this and a couple of emails with Mark, that it is indeed a stitch up, and to me has never actually looked into whether his parody actually portrayed the truth. Who were the CYCA members that threatened Cornish as he said publicly. 

AS should be asked who paid.

Another nail in the coffin of our sport, and the blame can be laid at the feet of the CYCA. A scourge on the sport. I am trying to find the email I was sent from them 20 years ago threatening me with expulsion from the sport. I wonder if there is a statute of limitations...

[Livia 1,086]

5 minutes ago, Rotnest Express said:

Are my numbers close Livia?

Would have said more with AS legals given AS refused to refer the complaint against its own CEO to the Panel.

[mccroc 312]

Oh and one last comment - I only heard of the MPP, and looked it up, when it was used to attack MH. So to use its existence against him and say he should have known about it is complete bullshit.

I still reckon any of us could lodge a bullying complaint with AS about this situation using the MPP. MH even raises it himself as part of his defence. But of course the "independent" panel is never going to bite the hand that feeds it.

And that is my opinion without prejudice.

[mccroc 312]

Sorry, I know I said last comment, but I would love to see a media review to see whether AS's or CYCA's reputation has been hurt more by MH's video, or by their actions against him. What I have read in Sydney Morning Herald etc, paint MA as someone that can't take criticism, and compared him to other people who took such criticism in their stride.

So my take out would be that the CYCA and MA have had their reputations hurt more by their actions than a video only 1500 or so people saw. The reactions have ben seen by millions around the world.

Of course in my view. nothing can hurt a reputation that is already negligible.

Happy New Year everyone - and I will let you know when I receive a letter! Already have my response ready.

[DELETED 208]

55 minutes ago, (p)Irate said:

"The MPP applies to members irrespective of whether or not the member bound was participating in an AS sanctioned event at the time of the conduct complained of, and there is no need to invoke Article 3.9 of the MPP."

It's bad enough that my employer thinks it has jurisdiction over every aspect of my life, whether connected to my work or not, but now my sailing clubs and AS think they can too.

Yep, employers have always tried to squeeze as much profit as possible from ALL its "assets" which include employees. In the age of colonialesque type politics where PUBLIC SERVANTS are referring to themselves as "Leaders" and budgets and countries are regarded as businesses by them more and more... Its sad but also goes to follow that many of these self professed Wannabe "Leaders" are into industry unions,federations,associations and "Governing bodies" of everything from industry to Sailing/sport and everything in between. They thrive feeling 'important' and often at the expense of the membership that pay their wages... BUSINESS IS BUSINESS and appearance is more important than integrity..

Balaclavas and baseball bats..

[Recidivist 948]

1 hour ago, Livia said:

The strange thing is that I have never had a Court ,Tribunal or Arbitrator hand down a decision on 29 December, ever, in 30 years.

Guess someone made a phone call!

Common political ploy Livia - expect to see more of it from AS and it's accessories.  It's "Media Management".

[Recidivist 948]

C'mon - if I'm going to get sued, I insist on at least being able to watch the video - someone must have a link?

[TheUltimateSockPuppet 366]

12 hours ago, Livia said:

The strange thing is that I have never had a Court ,Tribunal or Arbitrator hand down a decision on 29 December, ever, in 30 years.

Guess someone made a phone call!

Well if it had been handed down before Christmas Eve MH could have entered the 2-handed S2H in 2022 (if he even wanted to) this way that choice is taken from him.

[Abbo 90]

Get your pop corn out.... hearing being re-opened today at 11am.  Questions as to the validity of the protest, conflict of interest for one of the PC members etc...

https://fb.watch/afn65qYkr5/

 

 

[LB 15 6,524]

14 hours ago, Recidivist said:

C'mon - if I'm going to get sued, I insist on at least being able to watch the video - someone must have a link?

[Livia 1,086]

37 minutes ago, Abbo said:

Get your pop corn out.... hearing being re-opened today at 11am.  Questions as to the validity of the protest, conflict of interest for one of the PC members etc...

https://fb.watch/afn65qYkr5/

 

 

I did not know the Chairman rented office space from the RC.

Oh, forgot that the was the Royal Queensland Yacht Squadron.

But that was all good, silly me.

An Appeal Panel has already decided that issue anyway.

[LB 15 6,524]

9 minutes ago, Abbo said:

Get your pop corn out.... hearing being re-opened today at 11am.  Questions as to the validity of the protest, conflict of interest for one of the PC members etc...

https://fb.watch/afn65qYkr5/

 

 

I am isolating at home so can you grab me a dozen beers, a 40 pounder of Tequila and 1/2 pound of Brunswick heads?

[Fah Kiew Tu 3,239]

1 minute ago, LB 15 said:

I am isolating at home so can you grab me a dozen beers, a 40 pounder of Tequila and 1/2 pound of Brunswick heads?

Just got back from sailing down the Channel. We were behind Rabbit Is at Dover for a bit. Nice spot.

Good to see some fresh 2022 entertainment on line. Same shit, different year.

Really glad that my employer allows me to drink on the job, engage in random abuse on social media and that no stuffed shirt in a yacht club can take me to a kangaroo court 'judicial' hearing...

Time to set up an alternative organisation, guys, because whatever you've been doing to get AS reformed, it isn't working.

FKT

[Abbo 90]

24 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

I am isolating at home so can you grab me a dozen beers, a 40 pounder of Tequila and 1/2 pound of Brunswick heads?

No worries. I am clearing out the fridge anyway.... getting ready for Fiji...

We should probably catch up for a beer before I go anyway....

 

[LB 15 6,524]

1 minute ago, Abbo said:

No worries. I am clearing out the fridge anyway.... getting ready for Fiji...

We should probably catch up for a beer before I go anyway....

 

indeed mate.

[armchairadmiral 54]

Saw the video which I thought was cleverly done and entertaining. I certainly didn't take it as offensive or defamatory. Kitchen & heat analogy. Just read AS 'verdict' including comments made by MH about MA in the case. Have to ask if MH has clairvoyant talents . Talk about karma in view of how this S2H was actually decided. MH defense  statement included his view of "David vs Goliath" which I endorse. If ever the big establishment clobbering machine was going full bore this would be a stunning example. The message being transmitted to Oz sailors is ....fall into line,shut up,do what you're told because we know best  - with the tag line ;  and here's what will happen if you don't. I could think of another video clip from WWII that would be relevant.

[Livia 1,086]

30 minutes ago, armchairadmiral said:

Saw the video which I thought was cleverly done and entertaining. I certainly didn't take it as offensive or defamatory. Kitchen & heat analogy. Just read AS 'verdict' including comments made by MH about MA in the case. Have to ask if MH has clairvoyant talents . Talk about karma in view of how this S2H was actually decided. MH defense  statement included his view of "David vs Goliath" which I endorse. If ever the big establishment clobbering machine was going full bore this would be a stunning example. The message being transmitted to Oz sailors is ....fall into line,shut up,do what you're told because we know best  - with the tag line ;  and here's what will happen if you don't. I could think of another video clip from WWII that would be relevant.

Welcome to Australian Sailing 2021.

 

Wait, we have been putting up with this shit in Queensland for at least 4 years.

Love to see some people make public their phone records!

Let’s go to the Australian Sailing honour role:

Keppel Race RRS 69 hearing

Beachball v. Catherine Mary (both versions)

Fusion v. RQYS

Active Again v. RQYS and Appeal

RQYS v. Envy Scooters

Anyone see a trend.

You can add the Mark Hipgrave matter now.

and lets not forget the complaint of RQYS to the QLD Legal Services Commissioner that a prominent lawyer was not a fit and proper person to practice law.

The sport is truly fucked.

[Rotnest Express 151]

24 minutes ago, Livia said:

Welcome to Australian Sailing 2021.

Arseholes!.

Wait, we have been putting up with this shit in Queensland for at least 4 years.

Love to see some people make public their phone records!

Let’s go to the Australian Sailing honour role:

Keppel Race RRS 69 hearing

Beachball v. Catherine Mary (both versions)

Fusion v. RQYS

Active Again v. RQYS and Appeal

RQYS v. Envy Scooters

Anyone see a trend.

You can add the Mark Hipgrave matter now.

and lets not forget the complaint of RQYS to the QLD Legal Services Commissioner that a prominent lawyer was not a fit and proper person to practice law.

The sport is truly fucked.

Hey Livia,Guys like Sam Haynes and his team provide some light at the end of the tunnel hopefully.Let’s keep the pumps running till we can fix the ingress.We know where it is coming from.

[Livia 1,086]

Nope, too far gone!

My other boat weighs 30 tonne and takes 4 ton of fuel.

there is your answer.

[pulpit 299]

2 hours ago, Livia said:

Welcome to Australian Sailing 2021.

 

Wait, we have been putting up with this shit in Queensland for at least 4 years.

Love to see some people make public their phone records!

Let’s go to the Australian Sailing honour role:

Keppel Race RRS 69 hearing

Beachball v. Catherine Mary (both versions)

Fusion v. RQYS

Active Again v. RQYS and Appeal

RQYS v. Envy Scooters

Anyone see a trend.

You can add the Mark Hipgrave matter now.

and lets not forget the complaint of RQYS to the QLD Legal Services Commissioner that a prominent lawyer was not a fit and proper person to practice law.

The sport is truly fucked.

Livia, 

 

you are only telling the big boat part of this story. 

 

You have not mentioned the Kids class that had a parent from RQ that was the state class present that had his lawyer attend the class AGM because he was doing wrong to try a silence everyone and who also tried get a 12 year old band from making a Australian development because he was a better sailor than the RQ parents kid. 

 

AS and GRS  were both  involved and did very little to do the right thing. mind you lots of late nights networking and red wine drinking was done by a AS employee that we all know.

 

Pulpit

[DELETED 208]

Realistically what do the majority of Australian Sailing Members currently think of AS? 
 

At a glance i’d say they really dont care too much and just accept AS as a part of the expense to sail.. 
I just went to AS’s website and clicked on “About” then “Strategic Plan”... Up comes their Strategic plan dated 2020. So its safe to assume they havnt changed that in 2years...

”Dynamic”.... hahahaha

 

 

[DELETED 208]

Also their own annual report figures say sheeple:

Except for “Reaccreditations”.. Buyers remorse???? :-)

 

[DELETED 208]

Then theres this.... Seems to be a viable Grants application business/charity.;-)

[mccroc 312]

I think the majority of sailors don't know what AS is or what it does. My experience over the last twenty years in various race management roles is that people only have a reaction when you point out to them what is happening. I think most sailors if they were to be asked would say that they are members of AS. Of course they actually are not, the clubs are.

I have said before that my father was involved in writing the Constitution of Yachting NSW in the 1960s, which got amalgamated into AS several years ago. I don't believe that it was ever envisioned that sailing management would be so powerful, and seemingly run in a dictatorial way, not an inclusive way.  They seem to have spent more time and money on writing documents, than they have spent engaging with the everyday sailor - the ones that make up the majority of their membership.

There is far too much attention paid to high performance and the Olympics, to the detriment of keeping existing members in the sport. Including me, I think there are at least four of us in this topic alone that have said they will, or have already, stopped racing - some even selling their yachts, all because of the actions of AS, their member state authorities, or their clubs.

I have spoken to some fellow club members who have said that whilst they don't like the prescription to Rule 46, they will comply, because they are worried that if one of their crew gets injured or worse dies, then a Magistrate may look at them less favourably if not all crew had AS numbers. Is that reasonable, or is that fear mongering by AS.

Overall I believe AS has cast its slimy tentacles into every aspect of what used to be a sport that was self driven and self managed. They are threatening sailors, they are using the fear of insurance and liability as a way to get membership. On one hand they talk about safety, and on the other they lower safety requirements for offshore racing - one issue regarding fuel carried on board.

I think the clubs are basically ignorant of what is happening, however when they see a 25% increase in membership because of SailPass, they are just going to shrug their shoulders. They could, of course make SailPass free, as I believe some clubs have done. Interestingly clubs got a 50% discount on their affiliation fees last year, plus many including mine getting Cashflow Assistance - meaning last year they had a record profit.

So is there any reason for clubs to fight AS? No, and many seem to be agreeing that in order to be on a club Protest Committee, to volunteer on a start boat etc etc, you have to do a course - run by AS. Indoctrination in my view, and I am no conspiracy theorist. I would much rather have people that have grown up in the club, and learnt through osmosis and experience, rather than showing me a Certificate. Working with kids, different of course.

In conclusion, I firmly believe that unless something is done, yachting will be damaged beyond repair in a matter of a few years.

[harrygee 73]

If you want a headcount of those who've quit racing because of these dickheads, count me in.

I just got home from a week of cruising around Tasman Peninsular, thoroughly enjoyed.

[Livia 1,086]

4 minutes ago, random. said:

 

Ok which one is right?

You correctly acknowledge that Clubs are the Members, then criticise AS for not "engaging with the everyday sailor"?

Fill me in, I'm interested.

Edit: Oh, and BTW documents are a primary communications vehicles for "engaging with the everyday sailor".  People who complain, often have not read them.

BTW I have no connection personally to AS.

Members get to vote!

So lets not pretend individuals are members.

Another AS bullshit.

[DELETED 208]

Any advice??

This scenario here:

Person ‘Z’ decides to sell a car and a Bike and buys a boat interstate that needs some loving but has a race history. 
Person ‘Z’ then puts said boat into a Club marina for safe keeping and do work to sail her back interstate..

Whilst at the club marina ‘Z’ meets a few people, susses out the vibe of the club and is thinking of relocating to the boat and taking up racing and cruising there for a couple of years rather than sail her interstate into a fast cruisers retirement. 
 

Person ‘Z’ being of modest financial means decides to do some research of just how attainable this dream/plan is..

’Z’ Has The boat at the club of desired racing gets her back to CAT1/2 standards..

’Z’ has been online and looked at the AS web pages trying to suss it out but has given up trying to work out WTF AS actually do for a boat owner and crew...

Forgetting about the ongoing Loving the boat needs,The club membership and marina fees and the existing shitbox insurance policy, and also forgetting about beer,Rum,champagne and trophy polishing gear(:-p)  :

How much does A.S. Cost ‘Z’ per year approx in Sailpass and any other BS if the boat wants 3-4crew to race competitively and the initial recovery of and reissuing of the boats old Sail Number?.. 

Cheers. 

 

[mccroc 312]

2 hours ago, random. said:

 

Ok which one is right?

You correctly acknowledge that Clubs are the Members, then criticise AS for not "engaging with the everyday sailor"?

Fill me in, I'm interested.

Edit: Oh, and BTW documents are a primary communications vehicles for "engaging with the everyday sailor".  People who complain, often have not read them.

BTW I have no connection personally to AS.

I don't think it is actually a contradiction, but I see what you are saying. The clubs are members, but AS is not engaging with the clubs that represent the average sailor.  I feel that the clubs that don't offer youth training and/or high performance sailors and/or large sponsored events are overlooked mostly. We don't hear from AS asking for our input, and are actually made to feel our input is not wanted.

That strengthens the feeling that AS is not representing those clubs, leading to my earlier comment that most sailors don't know what AS is until its shortcomings are revealed to them - such as Rule 46 prescriptions, and their response to the witch hunt of Mark Hipgrave.

Documents - I should have written Policies, such as the MPP. I do not believe that most of the Policies listed in my screen grab could be considered engaging with the everyday sailor.

Like a lot of us on here I remember when YNSW was two or three people who loved sailing and that worked far better.

 

 

 

[mccroc 312]

2 hours ago, FixinGit said:

 

Forgetting about the ongoing Loving the boat needs,The club membership and marina fees and the existing shitbox insurance policy, and also forgetting about beer,Rum,champagne and trophy polishing gear(:-p)  :

How much does A.S. Cost ‘Z’ per year approx in Sailpass and any other BS if the boat wants 3-4crew to race competitively and the initial recovery of and reissuing of the boats old Sail Number?.. 

Cheers. 

 

You can find out about fees by clubs here: https://www.sailing.org.au/about/affiliation-update/

In my case my club does not bill me separately for AS fees. It used to be an annual fee. So for me as an owner/skipper/crew, there is no extra fee as such.

SailPass can vary from club to club. At my club the first three races are free (but you must sign up, so AS counts you) and then each additional one is $8. You can pay yearly for $150. You can get a Crew Membership of $283 per year which entitles you to cross to Full membership after three years with no joining fee.

Some clubs don't charge for SailPass - some change more.

If it were me, for my crew (if I had to make them pay) I would find the cheapest skiff or dinghy club offering AS membership. In Sydney you could join one for around $150 per year and get an AS number. Maybe cheaper elsewhere.

If each crew is prepared to pay themselves, great.

I just object to the policy that everyone on a racing yacht needs to have an AS number. We are the only country in the world to have this policy. It is just plain wrong.