Jump to content

Recommended Posts

18 hours ago, JasonL said:

Which clubs have walked away from AS ?

ie dssaffiluated.?

which clubs just folded ( lack of members, events, activity etc)?
which clubs still exist, but are quite happy doing their own thing?

 

couple years back AS Qld told other Qld clubs, that Noosa Yacht and Rowing, were persona non grata.

 

what used to be Wynum Manly Yacht Club ( Qld) thatoperate a marina, with around 50:50 powerboats and non-racers versus sailing race boats, established Wynum Manly Sailing Club, and dissafiliated WMYC, as AS were charging all members the AS fee.

now WMSC is paying around half the AS fee that they used to.

smart move, and good interpretation of the AS requirements to affiliate.

I was wondering about that. I guess that’s also why MBTBC has a separate sailing division

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 4.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

So what's wrong with an Opti kid being awarded the Rolex Male athlete of the Year?  Here's what  Shirley Robertson had to say: "Marco is undoubtedly a great talent, and I'm sure in time we will s

It's strange where one can gain motivation, sometimes in the unlikeliest of places. Mrs Octopus, stumbled a bit and has misrepresented the facts. Curious by comparison just appears to be  misinformed,

That's an awesome set of rose-coloured glasses you've got on! Yes, I prefer the discourse be public as other anarchists are interested also in the discussion.  You must be puzzled by the disconne

Posted Images

26 minutes ago, Livia said:

save that with most insurers racing cover only applies to AS club races.

Shit, I never picked that up.  Good PSA there Livia.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Fleetwood said:

Or join a non-AS-affiliated yacht club and race with them.

In ours, rules are minimal, racing is good, and good-natured (mostly), and most of our fees goes to insurance. (The rest goes for lubrication on the start boat.)

Got a list on non AS affiliated clubs?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Moreton Bay Boat Club wasn’t affiliated a few years ago, not sure if changed recently. 
 

If I was Mark I would start behind the fleet, provided not an exclusion zone, & run the course on any race he wants. I’m sure he’s welcome at the bar. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Livia said:

save that with most insurers racing cover only applies to AS club races.

Are you sure of that? I just checked my Club Marine policy details and it has the attached clause, as otherwise I am only covered for non-spinnaker racing. It does mention World Sailing to refer to their definition of racing - but doesn't specifically exclude other racing. I wonder what other insurers say in their policy wording.

I have another more serious issue with Club Marine where they denied a claim for damage done to a yacht caused by the actions of another yacht that was not damaged, even though a Protest Hearing finding explained the situation. Basically one yacht tacked suddenly, not giving any room to a yacht that then collided with another.

I ended up speaking to the assessor, who told me he only reads protest findings "out of interest". In this case he did his own investigation without talking to the damaged boat's skipper - he relied only on information only from the yacht the PC had found to be at fault. We had shall we say a robust discussion - at the end he said: "Well we will just have to agree to disagree" and I replied i can't do that because you're wrong! Luckily Club Marine caved in a bit.

 

Yacht_racing.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, mccroc said:

Are you sure of that? I just checked my Club Marine policy details and it has the attached clause, as otherwise I am only covered for non-spinnaker racing. It does mention World Sailing to refer to their definition of racing - but doesn't specifically exclude other racing. I wonder what other insurers say in their policy wording.

I have another more serious issue with Club Marine where they denied a claim for damage done to a yacht caused by the actions of another yacht that was not damaged, even though a Protest Hearing finding explained the situation. Basically one yacht tacked suddenly, not giving any room to a yacht that then collided with another.

I ended up speaking to the assessor, who told me he only reads protest findings "out of interest". In this case he did his own investigation without talking to the damaged boat's skipper - he relied only on information only from the yacht the PC had found to be at fault. We had shall we say a robust discussion - at the end he said: "Well we will just have to agree to disagree" and I replied i can't do that because you're wrong! Luckily Club Marine caved in a bit.

 

Yacht_racing.jpg

There are different wordings with different policies, even with the same insurer.

I have one that covers racing under a approved marine permit where a set of rules apply as opposed to world Sailing ie AS race.

There are a few clubs not affiliated that race under the Col Regs and you still get cover.

Speak to your insurer.

This insurance is the biggest practical difficulty with an AS alternative but no doubt an insurer can get on board certainly is if the Col Reg based rules are used.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, mccroc said:

Are you sure of that? I just checked my Club Marine policy details and it has the attached clause, as otherwise I am only covered for non-spinnaker racing. It does mention World Sailing to refer to their definition of racing - but doesn't specifically exclude other racing. I wonder what other insurers say in their policy wording.

I have another more serious issue with Club Marine where they denied a claim for damage done to a yacht caused by the actions of another yacht that was not damaged, even though a Protest Hearing finding explained the situation. Basically one yacht tacked suddenly, not giving any room to a yacht that then collided with another.

I ended up speaking to the assessor, who told me he only reads protest findings "out of interest". In this case he did his own investigation without talking to the damaged boat's skipper - he relied only on information only from the yacht the PC had found to be at fault. We had shall we say a robust discussion - at the end he said: "Well we will just have to agree to disagree" and I replied i can't do that because you're wrong! Luckily Club Marine caved in a bit.

 

Yacht_racing.jpg

You also identify the biggest problem with the RRs and the insurance cover.

Ever policy as an exclusion for damage caused by a breach of a law.

Every state has incorporated by Regulation, the Col Regs into Marine Safety Legislation.

So breach of the Col Regs equals no insurance.

Breach of the Col Regs is determined by a Court not a AS protest panel.

RRs and Col Regs are not not identical in the two areas where ther is most risk of damage, ie starts and mark rounding.

Just another example of AS arrogance that the rest of the does not exist.

Only NSW has a special rule inserted into the Col Regs in that state after work by Hicko and others at YNSW at the time who understood the problem.

Personally, in keel boat racing I follow the Col Regs not the RRS and just never puts the boat in to a position of conflict.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Livia said:

This insurance is the biggest practical difficulty with an AS alternative but no doubt an insurer can get on board certainly is if the Col Reg based rules are used.

This is exactly the issue why the SSAA affiliated. After the 98 Hobart Insurers were very nervous. Our Insurance doubled IIRC. We then got insurance under the AS umbrella, plus submitted a very detailed Risk Management plan and insurance actually came down.

As you mention in your later post NSW does have a clause in the Act that says something along the lines of "any Aquatic activity that is governed by rules, those rules will take precedence over CollRegs, but only between yachts racing under those rules". So if an AS alternative started and raced under accepted rules - for example the rules I posted a while ago - the SASC Racing Rules from 1872, then NSW Roads and Maritime would have no issue. The fun would start when a CYCA yacht hit one of our "bandit" yachts - they would get a shock to find CollRegs apply!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, mccroc said:

The fun would start when a CYCA yacht hit one of our "bandit" yachts - they would get a shock to find CollRegs apply!

Funny - we had that discussion decades ago on Sydney Harbour. Friend of mine's boat. A boat racing expected him to get out of the way because - they were racing. Jim told them he was stand-on, he wasn't racing and they had to obey the ColRegs.

It wasn't well received. Jim didn't care, he'd done a lot of racing and knew all the rules. We were drinking beer & eating roast chicken, fuck manoeuvering at that point.

I make it a practice to stay out of other boats' way if I possibly can as a matter of courtesy regardless of whether they're racing or not - no skin off of my nose to alter course so as to pass their stern.

FKT

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, FixinGit said:

Does Sailpass requirement include Pro’s on crew?.

AS will start to charge so called Pro’s an extra fee.

Only fair given someone is earning their living from the use of AS administrative infrastructure.

Shit just gave a GRS a good idea,

Say $5k for a year of Cat 1 and 2 races, another $5k for everything else.

Oh, and if a boat with Pro;s on board want to protest the fee is $10k.

They seems to have more skin ink the game, like the next pay check.

why should people getting paid free load of the rest.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well this owner just decided to not get involved in Club racing or AS. Looks like a boat built to race long ago is now officially retired and i will not be Club racing. Having read through here, chatted with other yacht owners/racers and read All the AS website stuff i can stomach, thats where this Newbie lays…. 
Thanks again for everybodys input and the information/insight into the reality of another Taxpayer funded wannabe legislative body. See yous out there.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Downunder Legend said:

Now that SailPass is in force, who’s going to be the first to be DSQ’d for failing to have registered crew?

Very good question. It will depend on SIs (in terms of whether crew lists and AS numbers need to be supplied prior to race). Otherwise, a yacht can protest another yacht if they suspect no AS number for one of the crew. When did they find out? When did they notify the other boat? Could the protested yacht have done something had they been notified earlier? Did the protestor fly a flag? And if so from when?Could open a huge can of worms.

If the yacht protesting found out after the race can they protest? If they inform the RC can the RC take action, particularly as the report comes from an interested party.?

Personally I think only an asshole (or CYCA member) would protest on this rule.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Livia said:

AS will start to charge so called Pro’s an extra fee.

Only fair given someone is earning their living from the use of AS administrative infrastructure.

Shit just gave a GRS a good idea,

Say $5k for a year of Cat 1 and 2 races, another $5k for everything else.

Oh, and if a boat with Pro;s on board want to protest the fee is $10k.

They seems to have more skin ink the game, like the next pay check.

why should people getting paid free load of the rest.

Looks like we will be back to boat loads of hedge trimmers. Just like sailing a F40 again. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, random. said:

Just not between two boats in an AS event.

different is different states, 

In NSW must be the same race into even event

Qld, who knows as the person giving out the marine permits has to power to suspend operation of the Col Regs under the Act.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rawhide said:

Looks like we will be back to boat loads of hedge trimmers. Just like sailing a F40 again. 

But GRS can hold eligibility inquiries, and refer to the NST.

More work for everyone.

Protests at the end of ever offshore event.

Oh wait we have that now!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Livia said:

In NSW must be the same race into even event

As far as I know, there hasn't been a protest in Sydney between two yachts in different races - say a RSYS yacht versus a SASC yacht, that hasn't been handled under RRS. I am expecting one day that someone will read the Act and realise that your comment is correct. I think that the wording is unclear as it can be taken two ways, and it could be in one yacht's interest to have the protest ruled invalid. 

Of course the Insurance company(companies) involved could make their own decision on that issue, as has happened to a member lately(I think I posted about it earlier).

Link to post
Share on other sites

In mixed fleet events with boats of different boat speeds and often indifferent knowledge of the RRS I keep the engine running but not engaged until after the start in case I need to stop or avoid a collision.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fleetwood said:

Where does it say that?  Can't find it in the NSW Boating Handbook.

RRS states that by racing you agree to abide by the RRS, which says:

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing.

No mention of different races or clubs.

This is a section of the Marine Safety Act 2016, NSW Government legislation - nothing to do with the Boating Handbook. I am not sure if this Regulation applies anywhere else in the world.

The words are as below - the important part is that it says "taking part in THE (my emphasis) aquatic activity". This could be taken to mean, as I posted above, a SASC race and a RSYS race on the same day, are not competing under the same Aquatic licence, even though they are bound by the same rules - the RRS. So far AFAIK all protests between different clubs have assumed the RRS apply to both yachts. 

Rule 1 of the International Regulations is modified by including the following NSW special Rule—
(1)  Despite Rule 1 (a), these Rules extend to vessels in all navigable waters.
(2)  These Rules do not apply to vessels taking part in an aquatic activity if the aquatic licence that authorises the activity provides for a different set of rules to be applied. However, these Rules do apply if there is a risk of collision between a vessel taking part in the aquatic activity and a vessel that is not taking part in the aquatic activity.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fleetwood said:

Thanks for that. As I once heard a barrister say - it doesn't matter what the regulations say, its what the law says that matters.

The lawyers could have a field day with that language......

It all depends on what your definition of 'the' is...

FKT

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Fleetwood said:

Where does it say that?  Can't find it in the NSW Boating Handbook.

RRS states that by racing you agree to abide by the RRS, which says:

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing.

No mention of different races or clubs.

Rule 1 A of the Col Regs in NSW

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Fleetwood said:

Where does it say that?  Can't find it in the NSW Boating Handbook.

RRS states that by racing you agree to abide by the RRS, which says:

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing.

No mention of different races or clubs.

And there is the problem because the State of NSW or QLD or wherever is not a party to the agreement and the Crown says the Col Regs apply and you cannot contract out of that .

Link to post
Share on other sites

Got this propaganda Emailed to me today from the Australian Sailing Self Admiration Society.Gave me a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that the purpose of the Sail Pass was ‘Duty of Care,Safety and Insurance’.Would be very interesting to know how many times and how much was paid out on the AS Policies as the first port of call would be the Yachts $5-10 million policy or the clubs.Another part of the Newsletter inferred how lucky we are to have the  CEO we have as he is contributing to fixing sport in Australia.Probably a real good idea to get his own backyard in order before applying the highly successful management formula that has AS held in such high esteem by its constituents.

5F7BEBCD-C313-47DB-A04E-9C0A2CCE4058.png

Edited by Rotnest Express
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

This Sail Pass, rule 46, is just an online form filling excersise.

no need to pay any money by the newbies, or crew, and, it can be valid for any number of events.

a whole years worth, for $0 outlay, for all newbies, and regular crew.

going by the FAQ's for it.

it does give "bums on seats" for AS to go on bended knee, grovelling to Federal Government, asking for more grant money, because "we have 450,000" participants, Australia wide, and we are growing in numbers.

bet you 2 bob ,they include dormant long past single "come out for a single sail" types, as they got given an AS number, way back then.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, JasonL said:

This Sail Pass, rule 46, is just an online form filling excersise.

no need to pay any money by the newbies, or crew, and, it can be valid for any number of events.

a whole years worth, for $0 outlay, for all newbies, and regular crew.

going by the FAQ's for it.

it does give "bums on seats" for AS to go on bended knee, grovelling to Federal Government, asking for more grant money, because "we have 450,000" participants, Australia wide, and we are growing in numbers.

bet you 2 bob ,they include dormant long past single "come out for a single sail" types, as they got given an AS number, way back then.

 

You are obviously new to the debate.

Even clubs near you charge newbies, some even charge members of other clubs to come into a club.

Just another example of the dishonestly of AS.

Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Livia said:

You are obviously new to the debate.

Even clubs near you charge newbies, some even charge members of other clubs to come into a club.

Just another example of the dishonestly of AS.

Question, (from a long way away)

AS claim that they do not set fees for sailpass, its up to the clubs to set any fees (if any), they also claim that sailpass memberships does not affect  any dues to AS.

Is that true? Is the real problem the added administrative burden on the clubs(for which they are reasonably charging a fee)?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The fee has no resemblance to the administrative burden.It is all about AS trying to protect club revenue against sailors.

Individual sailors are not members of AS but are called members when they should be called customers.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Livia said:

The fee has no resemblance to the administrative burden.It is all about AS trying to protect club revenue against sailors.

Individual sailors are not members of AS but are called members when they should be called customers.

 

Now I truly don't understand,  who defines the sailpass fees (and who keeps the money); AS or the clubs?

Why does AS have ANY say (or interest) in fees a club charges?

Why would AS care about 'protecting club revenue'?

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

Now I truly don't understand,  who defines the sailpass fees (and who keeps the money); AS or the clubs?

Why does AS have ANY say (or interest) in fees a club charges?

Why would AS care about 'protecting club revenue'?

 

 

Here's an attempt at an answer:

AS have prescribed that every crew on every boat have an AS number. This is confusing to an extent because as has been said here many times, the individual sailors are not members of AS the clubs are. So while the crew get a number, they are not actually AS members.

What AS is after, again as has been said many times, is a larger number of participants, so they can go to the Australian Government and the Australian Olympic Committee and get higher funding. Not that this helps the majority of racing sailors in Australia.

SailPass is a "clever" way for AS to get its way against the wishes of the broader sailing community that know what is happening. AS says that it is about Insurance and safety but that is a furphy. However, AS allows the member clubs around Australia to set their own fees for SailPass. So I am aware of some clubs that charge nothing. My club gives you three free, and then $8 per race, or you can buy a yearly SailPass - $150 I think. The issue as has been said already is that one club may not recognise the SailPass a crew paid for at another, perhaps even side by side club. So crew may need to pay multiple times.

Unfortunately AS will get its way, because this SailPass imposition is actually raising Club's revenue - in my club it was a 25% increase. Last year AS halved their annual affiliation fees, so every club has made a windfall, particularly when added to government COVID relief payments.

AS does not and cannot set any member club's fees. They charge each club an affiliation fee each year which is tier system based on the number of active sailing members at each club.

AS only care about club's revenue to the extent they can use revenue as a spurious argument to mandate their Prescriptions to rule 46.

Another nasty sting in the tail for me, is that to fully enforce this Prescription, then I believe AS, or the clubs, will mandate crew lists for every race, which will make yacht racing an anathema to anyone who has spent their entire lives competing in one of the most free and inclusive sports there is - or was.

It don't matter to me other than philosophically - I don't race anymore, but I am still Chairman of the club's PC, so am waiting for a test protest.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mccroc said:

Another nasty sting in the tail for me, is that to fully enforce this Prescription, then I believe AS, or the clubs, will mandate crew lists for every race, which will make yacht racing an anathema to anyone who has spent their entire lives competing in one of the most free and inclusive sports there is - or was.

I actually have no problem with that part.

You want to go racing on a crewed boat, you provide a list of all the people on board. With up to date contact details

Period.

Say the boat sinks and the skipper is incapacitated for some reason. How is the SAR team supposed to know who they're looking for and contact next of kin etc?

Don't want to do this, no problem.

Don't participate in organised racing. Go cruising or race against your friends, nobody then need know or care who's aboard.

Now this is a different issue to 'must have' SailPass but you're going to get zero support for any attempt to not provide an accurate crew list. I'd regard that as mandatory.

FKT

Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I actually have no problem with that part.

You want to go racing on a crewed boat, you provide a list of all the people on board. With up to date contact details

Period.

Say the boat sinks and the skipper is incapacitated for some reason. How is the SAR team supposed to know who they're looking for and contact next of kin etc?

Don't want to do this, no problem.

Don't participate in organised racing. Go cruising or race against your friends, nobody then need know or care who's aboard.

Now this is a different issue to 'must have' SailPass but you're going to get zero support for any attempt to not provide an accurate crew list. I'd regard that as mandatory.

FKT

Well that position if yours may seem straightforward and separate. But I would argue that you conflate the two activities.

What we are dealing with is society having gradually painted ourselves into a corner over "duty of care" issues. It is irrelevant what the context is, whether it be health & safety at Work or leisure pursuits.

The lawyers and bean counters have created business models and revenue streams that are touted as making safer and improving outcomes.

But if you think that the insidious manner in which AS are going to dissuade participation through adding layers of bureaucracy, adminstration and moreover added fees and costs to play isn't going to spread into wider areas - for instance your beloved cruising, then you are very sorely mistaken.

The lobbying by AS will lead to higher burden of insurance and compliance and even mandated training and self reporting to all forms of boating activity. They will quickly realise what untapped potential non racing sailing and boating represent. Look at how powerboats already dominate "yacht" club pens.

They will dress it up as easy to comply with Apps or whatever (for a fee) but the upshot is more layers of complexity and cost to you.

The legislators will love the spin off benefits of being able to plan development, track people behaviour and their spending habits and even change ownership and asset taxes.

We are dealing with the thin end of wedge here. But do not think that because you do not race you are forever isolated or protected from these greedy fuckwits.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I

You want to go racing on a crewed boat, you provide a list of all the people on board. With up to date contact details

Period.

Say the boat sinks and the skipper is incapacitated for some reason. How is the SAR team supposed to know who they're looking for and contact next of kin etc?

Don't want to do this, no problem.

Don't participate in organised racing. Go cruising or race against your friends, nobody then need know or care who's aboard.

 

Don't quite get the logic, if I go car racing at an organised meet I should use my seatbelt, but if it's a private shopping expedition I shouldn't need to?

Link to post
Share on other sites

But having said this, one of the things I love about sailing is that you take responsibility for yourself, your boat and your crew.  The increasing level of mandates from authorities takes away some of the sense of achievement you get in planning and executing your voyages safely (in my view).

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Say the boat sinks and the skipper is incapacitated for some reason. How is the SAR team supposed to know who they're looking for and contact next of kin etc?

Remember that most racing around the country is in enclosed waters and pretty benign conditions. Racing in PPB, I'd be surprised if I even got my feet wet in the very unlikely event that a boat sank. (in PPB the mast would likely still be above water). Boats very rarely sink quickly, and with a racing fleet of 20+ in close proximity, there is more danger of getting crushed between hulls than being left in the water. Everyone will be telling tall tales back at the bar well before SAR is mobilised.

I raced my crusing boat on a very ad hoc basis. Most likley either me or a mate would say 'weather looks good, lets do the thursday afternoon race'. We'd ring a few people and see who turned up. I've had people on board I haven't been introduced too until we are settled into a leg. No way I'd be organisaed enough to get a crew list together and submitted to race management. I'm too busy making sure that the anchor is off the bow, we have the right headsail up, we shake out the reef we left in at the weekend etc. to run around doing paper work beyond signing on with a headcount via radio. You kinda hope that folks on board take responsibility for each other - and that when it's my boat I take responsibility to ensure that we sail safely for the skill and happiness levels of people on board.

I don't know of any incident in the last 20 plus years racing keelboats inshore where there has been a problem that everyone submitting a list of people with AS numbers in advance of a race would have helped with. So when the proposal is to introduce a pain in the arse, in order to solve a non problem? I'd prefer my arse without pain thanks.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I actually have no problem with that part.

You want to go racing on a crewed boat, you provide a list of all the people on board. With up to date contact details

Period.

Say the boat sinks and the skipper is incapacitated for some reason. How is the SAR team supposed to know who they're looking for and contact next of kin etc?

Don't want to do this, no problem.

Don't participate in organised racing. Go cruising or race against your friends, nobody then need know or care who's aboard.

Now this is a different issue to 'must have' SailPass but you're going to get zero support for any attempt to not provide an accurate crew list. I'd regard that as mandatory.

FKT

Wow. What a bizarre attitude to have. Have all your races been with randoms that you pick up off the wharf on the way to the boat? And do you regularly lose a few?

Your type of bureaucratic bullshit - "oh what about if an asteroid hits the yacht - who will contact the widows?" is why I despise what is happening with AS. How many times in the last 50 years has someone been lost off a yacht racing in enclosed waters where a victim was unable to be identified - has it ever happened? I doubt it. Let's compare it to a car crash -  can paramedics look up a website to get all the details of the driver and passengers? And how many car crashes are there each week compared to yacht collisions? It's just a bullshit argument, coming from what I believe to be a very flawed viewpoint. 

People have been yacht racing for well over 150 years. Nothing has basically changed in that time that requires this nanny state bullshit. 

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites

I suppose the problem with providing a crew list to the RO is that it's the first step towards one day having to send a crew list to the coast guard or police every time you go for a daysail or going fishing. 

Given the way we go so super nanny-state here, I would not go past them wanting that one day.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Se7en said:

...

I don't know of any incident in the last 20 plus years racing keelboats inshore where there has been a problem that everyone submitting a list of people with AS numbers in advance of a race would have helped with. 

Agreed.  Perhaps @grs would like to chime in with a few examples?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Se7en said:

Remember that most racing around the country is in enclosed waters and pretty benign conditions. Racing in PPB, I'd be surprised if I even got my feet wet in the very unlikely event that a boat sank. (in PPB the mast would likely still be above water). Boats very rarely sink quickly, and with a racing fleet of 20+ in close proximity, there is more danger of getting crushed between hulls than being left in the water. Everyone will be telling tall tales back at the bar well before SAR is mobilised.

I raced my crusing boat on a very ad hoc basis. Most likley either me or a mate would say 'weather looks good, lets do the thursday afternoon race'. We'd ring a few people and see who turned up. I've had people on board I haven't been introduced too until we are settled into a leg. No way I'd be organisaed enough to get a crew list together and submitted to race management. I'm too busy making sure that the anchor is off the bow, we have the right headsail up, we shake out the reef we left in at the weekend etc. to run around doing paper work beyond signing on with a headcount via radio. You kinda hope that folks on board take responsibility for each other - and that when it's my boat I take responsibility to ensure that we sail safely for the skill and happiness levels of people on board.

I don't know of any incident in the last 20 plus years racing keelboats inshore where there has been a problem that everyone submitting a list of people with AS numbers in advance of a race would have helped with. So when the proposal is to introduce a pain in the arse, in order to solve a non problem? I'd prefer my arse without pain thanks.

 

2 hours ago, Recidivist said:

Agreed.  Perhaps @grs would like to chime in with a few examples?

This is the problem.

AS are using the provision of Insurance cover and the protection to both owners and crews alike to protect their assests, estates and livelihoods from the lawyers who would come hunting, yet it is the same lawyer advice who has advised that this is way to leverage control (and thereby fees) of the sport.

So let's establish the actual risk represented by the sport over the past 20 years or so (e.g. since '98 Sydney Hobart) to establish by category - the numbers of incidents, claims and payouts that has led to this so called "need" to foist all this administration and fees upon the sport.

Anecdotally I suspect it would be very few and far between - both in case numbers and actual claim payouts. But let's have @grs or @Stanno (other handle here) put us in the facts that are driving this seismic shift.

The whole reference to members whilst not actually being a member is just indicative of the deceit at play here.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

As said before the insurance is bullshit, better off claiming the dole

https://networksteadfast.com.au/industries-and-associations/sailing/individuals-and-member-insurance/

Loss of Income

Weekly Benefit 100% of pre-Injury Salary, if prevented from working in your Occupation up to a maximum of $300 per week. The benefit period is 52 weeks and the excess is 7 days.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I know two people that tried to claim and they had to go through their own insurance and the boat owners insurance before the AS insurance would think of covering whatever was left.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Recidivist said:

Agreed.  Perhaps @grs would like to chime in with a few examples?

I see the Dinah is all AS affiliated now. WTF happened there?

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, mccroc said:

Wow. What a bizarre attitude to have. Have all your races been with randoms that you pick up off the wharf on the way to the boat? And do you regularly lose a few?

Remember that FKT does very little (if any) racing, and mostly sails shorthanded in Southern Tasmania. So the sailing he experiences is a bit longer, more remote and with less other boats around than Wednesday afternoon white sail wonders. Sinking south of Bruny in changeable weather would make me a lot more nervous than going for a swim a couple of miles off brighton beach.

I don't think anyone is arguing that crew lists are a bad idea for offshore races. Just total overkill for a doddle around the bouys in 22 degree inshore waters.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

You want to go racing on a crewed boat, you provide a list of all the people on board. With up to date contact details

Period.

You would always have a crew list and a crew NoK for the crew with the boat emergency contact for as long as I can remember.

My boats emergency contact was my partner. Who knew all the crew as did most of the other partners. Very simple and  effective support network. It: 

  • worked very well, and
  • didn't require a centralised database nor registration by AS of every punter.

A database AS flaunt to gain relevance and standing as a representative body of the sport. 

Whilst wholly focussed on Olympic money and the accompanying veneer of respectability. 

Oh. And disgust and contempt. 

Which is probably why the thread.  

 

 

 

    

 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Boink said:

Well that position if yours may seem straightforward and separate. But I would argue that you conflate the two activities.

What we are dealing with is society having gradually painted ourselves into a corner over "duty of care" issues. It is irrelevant what the context is, whether it be health & safety at Work or leisure pursuits.

The lawyers and bean counters have created business models and revenue streams that are touted as making safer and improving outcomes.

But if you think that the insidious manner in which AS are going to dissuade participation through adding layers of bureaucracy, adminstration and moreover added fees and costs to play isn't going to spread into wider areas - for instance your beloved cruising, then you are very sorely mistaken.

The lobbying by AS will lead to higher burden of insurance and compliance and even mandated training and self reporting to all forms of boating activity. They will quickly realise what untapped potential non racing sailing and boating represent. Look at how powerboats already dominate "yacht" club pens.

They will dress it up as easy to comply with Apps or whatever (for a fee) but the upshot is more layers of complexity and cost to you.

The legislators will love the spin off benefits of being able to plan development, track people behaviour and their spending habits and even change ownership and asset taxes.

We are dealing with the thin end of wedge here. But do not think that because you do not race you are forever isolated or protected from these greedy fuckwits.

@Boink I seriously didnt think i would be agreeing with anything much you have to say after your strange comments in my Wetted surface area Rules thread, yet here iam agreeing with every word of this post. 

3 hours ago, Boink said:

 

This is the problem.

AS are using the provision of Insurance cover and the protection to both owners and crews alike to protect their assests, estates and livelihoods from the lawyers who would come hunting, yet it is the same lawyer advice who has advised that this is way to leverage control (and thereby fees) of the sport.

So let's establish the actual risk represented by the sport over the past 20 years or so (e.g. since '98 Sydney Hobart) to establish by category - the numbers of incidents, claims and payouts that has led to this so called "need" to foist all this administration and fees upon the sport.

Anecdotally I suspect it would be very few and far between - both in case numbers and actual claim payouts. But let's have @grs or @Stanno (other handle here) put us in the facts that are driving this seismic shift.

The whole reference to members whilst not actually being a member is just indicative of the deceit at play here.

Again, agreed 110%.

The public website published AS material will in NO WAY reflect the material submitted regularly to the Government and Legislative bodies they are fondling inorder to gain future $,s and ultimately “Governance” at the legislative level of EVERY level of Sailing. I bet the mantra is something akin to:

“By standardising the training and assessment progression of competence for our current and future stakeholders via our framework We will achieve a safer, more diverse and inclusive Sport for all Australians, whilst setting the Gold Standard for other nations to follow.

Although training and assessment are key to ensuring Risk is managed to levels that are as low as possible,AS also has the the ability to ensure compliance via our terrific “Sailpass” database, which allows the monitoring of training and also highlights any potential compliance shortfalls and ongoing areas for stakeholder improvement in very specific detail. We would like the Government to partner with us in this mutually beneficial win win endeavour initially.. Lets make Australia Great again.”

Fun licenses and microchips here we come?

You cant bullshit a bullshitter very easily, but unfortunately money talks and cunts gonna cunt.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Boink said:

 

 

Anecdotally I suspect it would be very few and far between - both in case numbers and actual claim payouts. But let's have @grs or @Stanno (other handle here) put us in the facts that are driving this seismic shift.

 

Hey Boink - I can absolutely say I am not GRS's second name on this forum ... my name is Chris Stannage and I'm actually an insurance lawyer of almost 30 years (my firm is called Saltwater Insurance Consultants ... www.saltwaterinsurance.com ) as well as President of Hunters Hill Sailing Club in Sydney.  And, as AS will readily attest, constantly calling out issues with the AS insurance program, the Discover Sailing Centre Agreement (HHSC now has a standalone agreement we negotiated with AS) and the AS participation numbers (which drive us nuts as we know from counting boats on the bay that kids aren't coming through from programs like Tackers).  Further, you'll note from our Club website no mention of Sailpass... we have used it twice in three years but it isn't actually relevant to our off the beach, volunteer dinghy club. When I jump on a yacht its to have a fun day on the Harbour rather than race, but as members of a Club affiliated with AS its a moot point for me and my family anyway. 

I know of very few cases that have made it all the way through to the AS insurance program - the wording is very much a "after all other avenues are exhausted" type policy. I have constantly advised Clubs to ensure that their public liability insurances are up to scratch, and encourage owners to do the same.  I have informally tried to help a couple of injured volunteers claim on the AS program, and each have given ups, despite having clear cases. Neither was inclined to proceed against the club for damages for their injuries. 

I don't have any sense of how many claims are made on the AS program, how many are paid and the quantum of claims either individually or on an aggregated basis.  

If you want to pick up the phone and have a chat some time, my number is on my firm website or the HHSC club website.  

Cheers

Stanno.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, mccroc said:

Wow. What a bizarre attitude to have. Have all your races been with randoms that you pick up off the wharf on the way to the boat? And do you regularly lose a few?

Your type of bureaucratic bullshit - "oh what about if an asteroid hits the yacht - who will contact the widows?" is why I despise what is happening with AS. How many times in the last 50 years has someone been lost off a yacht racing in enclosed waters where a victim was unable to be identified - has it ever happened? I doubt it. Let's compare it to a car crash -  can paramedics look up a website to get all the details of the driver and passengers? And how many car crashes are there each week compared to yacht collisions? It's just a bullshit argument, coming from what I believe to be a very flawed viewpoint. 

People have been yacht racing for well over 150 years. Nothing has basically changed in that time that requires this nanny state bullshit. 

Don't care.

You might have noticed that duty of care & insurance type stuff has changed in the last 150 years.

Or maybe you haven't.

I reiterate, I don't care.

Far as I'm concerned, a crew list isn't an unreasonable ask. If you disagree, you're free to do so.

And FWIW I'm the anarchist type. I don't do rules if I can help it.

But I do have the ability to recognise & mitigate risk. Especially when the cost of doing so is fuck-all. You can't text or email the race officials a list of who's on board your boat and their contact details? Kindly stop insulting my intelligence.

SailPass is another matter. AS can FOAD as far as I'm concerned.

Whatever, no skin off of my nose if you manage to piss off a number of people who'd otherwise support you and no skin off of my nose if you take your toy home and don't race it.

FKT

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

You would always have a crew list and a crew NoK for the crew with the boat emergency contact for as long as I can remember.

My boats emergency contact was my partner. Who knew all the crew as did most of the other partners. Very simple and  effective support network. It: 

  • worked very well, and
  • didn't require a centralised database nor registration by AS of every punter.

A database AS flaunt to gain relevance and standing as a representative body of the sport. 

Whilst wholly focussed on Olympic money and the accompanying veneer of respectability. 

Oh. And disgust and contempt. 

Which is probably why the thread. 

As I've said, I see a crew list as common sense and I'm actually surprised that people think it's some form of imposition.

That's not support for AS or their SailPass as an attempt to shoe-horn clubs et al into their 'inflate the numbers' scam. AS can FOAD as far as I'm concerned.

Fuck's sake, look at the examples of shit hitting the fan WITHOUT crew/pax lists. I wonder if you guys objecting have ever done anything other than flat water sailing. I spent a big chunk of my working life in the deep ocean.

FKT

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

As I've said, I see a crew list as common sense and I'm actually surprised that people think it's some form of imposition.

That's not support for AS or their SailPass as an attempt to shoe-horn clubs et al into their 'inflate the numbers' scam. AS can FOAD as far as I'm concerned.

Fuck's sake, look at the examples of shit hitting the fan WITHOUT crew/pax lists. I wonder if you guys objecting have ever done anything other than flat water sailing. I spent a big chunk of my working life in the deep ocean.

FKT

The why post on the topic that is almost 100% talking about RRS 46 imposition on enclosed waters Club racing? I get that you don't race and only cruise offshore, so in other words AS means nothing in your world. What the rest of us are talking about has no relevance to you, but is important to us.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, 00seven said:

I see the Dinah is all AS affiliated now. WTF happened there?

Shit, really?  That's really the fall of a last bastion!  All that rugged individualism disappeared when the place became the local watering hole for a gentrified neighbourhood full of million-dollar townhouses. They'll be sailing Beneteaus next.  Oh, wait ...

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Recidivist said:

Shit, really?  That's really the fall of a last bastion!  All that rugged individualism disappeared when the place became the local watering hole for a gentrified neighbourhood full of million-dollar townhouses. They'll be sailing Beneteaus next.  Oh, wait ...

RRS n everything for wet season races. Sail pass applies. 

Bullshit hey

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, 00seven said:

RRS n everything for wet season races. Sail pass applies. 

Bullshit hey

Bloody hell - but I bet the handicapping is still crooked as!

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Stanno said:

Hey Boink - I can absolutely say I am not GRS's second name on this forum ... my name is Chris Stannage and I'm actually an insurance lawyer of almost 30 years (my firm is called Saltwater Insurance Consultants ... www.saltwaterinsurance.com ) as well as President of Hunters Hill Sailing Club in Sydney.  And, as AS will readily attest, constantly calling out issues with the AS insurance program, the Discover Sailing Centre Agreement (HHSC now has a standalone agreement we negotiated with AS) and the AS participation numbers (which drive us nuts as we know from counting boats on the bay that kids aren't coming through from programs like Tackers).  Further, you'll note from our Club website no mention of Sailpass... we have used it twice in three years but it isn't actually relevant to our off the beach, volunteer dinghy club. When I jump on a yacht its to have a fun day on the Harbour rather than race, but as members of a Club affiliated with AS its a moot point for me and my family anyway. 

I know of very few cases that have made it all the way through to the AS insurance program - the wording is very much a "after all other avenues are exhausted" type policy. I have constantly advised Clubs to ensure that their public liability insurances are up to scratch, and encourage owners to do the same.  I have informally tried to help a couple of injured volunteers claim on the AS program, and each have given ups, despite having clear cases. Neither was inclined to proceed against the club for damages for their injuries. 

I don't have any sense of how many claims are made on the AS program, how many are paid and the quantum of claims either individually or on an aggregated basis.  

If you want to pick up the phone and have a chat some time, my number is on my firm website or the HHSC club website.  

Cheers

Stanno.

Hi Stanno

Thousand apologies, and appreciate the clarification. The connection seemed solid under the context.

Also happenstance that you do what you do and have direct and relevant knowledge of the matters at hand and anecdotally supply yet more evidence of the worthlessness of the AS insurance scheme, upon which they have then based their drive into cementing their so called control of the sport through Sailpass and the need to associate with them......

Fairwinds and smooth water to you.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Recidivist said:

Bloody hell - but I bet the handicapping is still crooked as!

Australia Day stern chaser start times are up. Based on current club handicaps multis start on the 27th

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Stanno said:

Hey Boink - I can absolutely say I am not GRS's second name on this forum ... my name is Chris Stannage...

And I can absolutely say I am not Stanno's second name on this forum... my name is Glen Stanaway.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, grs said:

And I can absolutely say I am not Stanno's second name on this forum... my name is Glen Stanaway.

 

Whilst you are here, why not provide some info about how many claims, etc have been made on the AS insurance?

 

It would be nice to have some hard facts to provide a clearer picture.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Pipe Dream said:

Whilst you are here, why not provide some info about how many claims, etc have been made on the AS insurance?

 

It would be nice to have some hard facts to provide a clearer picture.

And how many have actually been paid out more to the point Pipe.

Claytons Insurance by AS.

‘The insurance you have when you don’t have insurance.’

3AFC016D-1DC7-42AF-A564-24472C9DAB10.png

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, grs said:

And I can absolutely say I am not Stanno's second name on this forum... my name is Glen Stanaway.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Pipe Dream said:

Whilst you are here, why not provide some info about how many claims, etc have been made on the AS insurance?

 

It would be nice to have some hard facts to provide a clearer picture.

Yes, a clear and transparent presentation of the facts would be most appreciated by the "members", or is that "subjects", of Australian Sailing.

Seeing as all of this insurance is created primarily to keep us all safe, some breakdown of premiums generated, claims submitted, and claims paid and even by which category of racing......E.g. dinghy, inshore & offshore......

I can't yet find any examples of benefits being paid to claimants. Please correct my skewed perception of this whole matter. Currently my perception is that the only beneficiary is AS and the underwriters, especially as so much has been staked upon this foundation of making our sport safer.....

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Personal experience with insurers supports Livia's earlier claim...that AS coverage is the insurance of last resort. This means that as a crew member, first I claim personal insurance, then sue the boat owner and then event management and if all of that fails....AS will pay "up to $300 a week...for a year".

I experienced serious spinal injury...and claimed on my personal insurance. My insurer was furious that I wasn't prepared to sue the boat owner (a mate)...or the event management. They held up payments to my hospital. The Hospital thought it was outrageous and continued treatment saying that I needn't be concerned and that their 'legals' would sort it out. They did. 

AS "insurance" is worthless in my experience...I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I too would like full disclosure on claims actually made & paid....

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Boink said:

 

Yes, a clear and transparent presentation of the facts would be most appreciated by the "members", or is that "subjects", of Australian Sailing.

Seeing as all of this insurance is created primarily to keep us all safe, some breakdown of premiums generated, claims submitted, and claims paid and even by which category of racing......E.g. dinghy, inshore & offshore......

I can't yet find any examples of benefits being paid to claimants. Please correct my skewed perception of this whole matter. Currently my perception is that the only beneficiary is AS and the underwriters, especially as so much has been staked upon this foundation of making our sport safer.....

Not really setting any precedents, but we've had two payouts in our skiff fleet.

One for a broken toe kicking a slightly raised centerboard in a tack (raised in heavy weather)

One for a tooth loosened by being hit by a trapeze handle.

It covered (very low in the circumstances) medical costs and I recall paid out $250 for the broken toe.

No neglignece issues, so no other insurers. And they only became aware of the possibility when I pointed it out to them and helped them through the claim; although the policy words was pretty imponderable and took a while for me (a non-insurance lawyer) to work it out because of the way it was schedulised.

Both individuals were independant but youngish and not flash with cash, so it helped.

But at the higher level of serious injury, I agree it's junk insurance; especially the income cover.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Couta said:

Personal experience with insurers supports Livia's earlier claim...that AS coverage is the insurance of last resort. This means that as a crew member, first I claim personal insurance, then sue the boat owner and then event management and if all of that fails....AS will pay "up to $300 a week...for a year".

I experienced serious spinal injury...and claimed on my personal insurance. My insurer was furious that I wasn't prepared to sue the boat owner (a mate)...or the event management. They held up payments to my hospital. The Hospital thought it was outrageous and continued treatment saying that I needn't be concerned and that their 'legals' would sort it out. They did. 

AS "insurance" is worthless in my experience...I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I too would like full disclosure on claims actually made & paid....

 

That's a disgraceful example of bad business, and appreciate you putting the story forward.

You point out a very large gap that exists, especially when circumstances are like yours - and you are unwilling to involve friends in your misfortune; especially when the marketing that AS use creates an expectation that such cover is provided by the scheme - but actually it's not worth SFA........ 

(Or as shown above - almost SFA)

Come on Australian Sailing & @grs if this is all just bad optics then put us straight with some facts and evidence.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Boink said:

Come on Australian Sailing & @grs if this is all just bad optics then put us straight with some facts and evidence.

The problem with wanting better insurance is that it will cost more money and so, inevitably, push up AS fees.

Really, the issue here is AS crowing about the insurance as a major membership benefit and justification for pushing things like the rule 46 change; when it's seemingly not. That's where the dishonesty, and therefore the problem really lies.

So yes, facts and evidence would be nice; otherwise they're treating us like idiots. And that just gets people's back up.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Rambler said:

Not really setting any precedents, but we've had two payouts in our skiff fleet.

One for a broken toe kicking a slightly raised centerboard in a tack (raised in heavy weather)

One for a tooth loosened by being hit by a trapeze handle.

It covered (very low in the circumstances) medical costs and I recall paid out $250 for the broken toe.

No neglignece issues, so no other insurers. And they only became aware of the possibility when I pointed it out to them and helped them through the claim; although the policy words was pretty imponderable and took a while for me (a non-insurance lawyer) to work it out because of the way it was schedulised.

Both individuals were independant but youngish and not flash with cash, so it helped.

But at the higher level of serious injury, I agree it's junk insurance; especially the income cover.

Now it all makes sense. Keelboat owners and sailors who sail on fully insured keelboats and thus don't need AS insurance are subsidising OTB sailors who's boats are probably not insured.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Rambler said:

The problem with wanting better insurance is that it will cost more money and so, inevitably, push up AS fees.

Really, the issue here is AS crowing about the insurance as a major membership benefit and justification for pushing things like the rule 46 change; when it's seemingly not. That's where the dishonesty, and therefore the problem really lies.

So yes, facts and evidence would be nice; otherwise they're treating us like idiots. And that just gets people's back up.

But that is the point.

I don't want any AS prescribed cover foisted upon me at all. And certainly not to be the cornerstone of why I need to be tethered to AS.

They actually need me and my like, more than I need them...... But that is lost in this reframing of our sport.

I have sailed competitively at my risk and at the risk of others for all of my sailing career. To suggest that my cover and safety is improved by this is farcical and an insult to even most intellectually challenged. To determine I need to comply when there is no reciprocal benefit is taking the piss. Crew lists are not a new concept. Clubs are well versed in safe race management - many would argue too cautious already.

I also work construction and am well versed in Lip service legislation that is well intentioned but exceedingly poorly executed. Safety outcomes have pretty much plateaued in that industry. Yet administration and cost burdens continue to rise. However, at least in that game everyone is getting paid....... That does not occur in sailing.

AS have lost sight of how when you make costs of entry too high you discourage participation. Boat Owners have taken the burden of expense in exchange for the glory of recognition come presentation time. Even for owners, it is a very poor time/cost equation. But to spread the burden of cost across the crews in a time poor society will make overall numbers wither and die....... This trend has already been in evidence for quite some time.

The exact reverse mentality should be at work here. Make sailing as low cost for the crew to participate, make the sport desirable and socially vibrant (not a lot of clubs like that anymore......too many dead yacht club bars) And the dollars will naturally flow as crew upgrade their aspirations and spending accordingly...... 

The days of big spending corporate sponsorship seem past in all but French Sailing - and look at their model of school based teaching and community wide engagement. Low cost, high value and teaching a whole range of life, environmental, physical and educational goals.

With out growth in the sport the whole sponsorship gig is either unsustainable or living on borrowed time. Skandia and Audi and Volvo have been courted and departed. There are many, many others....... Unfortunately....... 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s interesting to note that in France the concept of a ‘yacht club’ is more likely to be a storage shed. 
And the sport appears vibrant and healthy. And full of excellent sailors.
Hmmmm....

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rambler said:

The problem with wanting better insurance is that it will cost more money and so, inevitably, push up AS fees.

Really, the issue here is AS crowing about the insurance as a major membership benefit and justification for pushing things like the rule 46 change; when it's seemingly not. That's where the dishonesty, and therefore the problem really lies.

So yes, facts and evidence would be nice; otherwise they're treating us like idiots. And that just gets people's back up.

Yep, just dishonesty

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Dark Knight said:

Now it all makes sense. Keelboat owners and sailors who sail on fully insured keelboats and thus don't need AS insurance are subsidising OTB sailors who's boats are probably not insured.

 

No, I can assure you the boats are fully insured.

We're talking twin wire racing skiffs here.

But where's the negligence on which any thrid party claim must be based? there is none.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Now it all makes sense. Keelboat owners and sailors who sail on fully insured keelboats and thus don't need AS insurance are subsidising OTB sailors who's boats are probably not insured.

 

There seems to be a significant and dangerous misunderstanding of what your boat policy covers here.

  • It covers damage to your boat - more or less however caused [with some exclusions]
  • Claims against you for injury or damaged cause to others and their property as a result of your negligence; in other words when you bear some responsibility for the accident.

Sometimes they chuck in a low value personal accident insurance for the skipper/owner too; a bit like the AS policy.

They don't usually cover mere (non negligence) accidents cause to your crew.

Why are you the owner responsible for something your crew does to themselves?

Of course, there can always be an argument about what causes an accident and whether negligence was involved. If a crew person severs fingers in a winch accident (to take a recent YACHT example I'm aware of), is the owner's negligence involved? [no need to write a long answer. Short answer is, it will depend] 

So please don't pick on or make prejudical generalisations about OTB boats. We abide by the same rules.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

And there is the exclusion about unlawful acts.

And every Australian state makes a breach of the Col Regs an unlawful act.

See the problem coming!

But we are AS and we are special!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Boink said:

But that is the point.

I don't want any AS prescribed cover foisted upon me at all. And certainly not to be the cornerstone of why I need to be tethered to AS.

They actually need me and my like, more than I need them...... But that is lost in this reframing of our sport.

I have sailed competitively at my risk and at the risk of others for all of my sailing career. To suggest that my cover and safety is improved by this is farcical and an insult to even most intellectually challenged. To determine I need to comply when there is no reciprocal benefit is taking the piss. Crew lists are not a new concept. Clubs are well versed in safe race management - many would argue too cautious already.

I also work construction and am well versed in Lip service legislation that is well intentioned but exceedingly poorly executed. Safety outcomes have pretty much plateaued in that industry. Yet administration and cost burdens continue to rise. However, at least in that game everyone is getting paid....... That does not occur in sailing.

AS have lost sight of how when you make costs of entry too high you discourage participation. Boat Owners have taken the burden of expense in exchange for the glory of recognition come presentation time. Even for owners, it is a very poor time/cost equation. But to spread the burden of cost across the crews in a time poor society will make overall numbers wither and die....... This trend has already been in evidence for quite some time.

The exact reverse mentality should be at work here. Make sailing as low cost for the crew to participate, make the sport desirable and socially vibrant (not a lot of clubs like that anymore......too many dead yacht club bars) And the dollars will naturally flow as crew upgrade their aspirations and spending accordingly...... 

The days of big spending corporate sponsorship seem past in all but French Sailing - and look at their model of school based teaching and community wide engagement. Low cost, high value and teaching a whole range of life, environmental, physical and educational goals.

With out growth in the sport the whole sponsorship gig is either unsustainable or living on borrowed time. Skandia and Audi and Volvo have been courted and departed. There are many, many others....... Unfortunately....... 

Well said.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Rambler said:

The problem with wanting better insurance is that it will cost more money and so, inevitably, push up AS fees.

Really, the issue here is AS crowing about the insurance as a major membership benefit and justification for pushing things like the rule 46 change; when it's seemingly not. That's where the dishonesty, and therefore the problem really lies.

So yes, facts and evidence would be nice; otherwise they're treating us like idiots. And that just gets people's back up.

I have 3 clubs paying fees to AS on my behalf. So I get 3 times the payout. Right?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2022 at 3:48 PM, Recidivist said:

Agreed.  Perhaps @grs would like to chime in with a few examples?

That would take balls I'd imagine, hypothetically

Then again, any response would just be a typical smart arse 'non' response.

I'd rather be sailing.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites