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The fee has no resemblance to the administrative burden.It is all about AS trying to protect club revenue against sailors.

Individual sailors are not members of AS but are called members when they should be called customers.

 

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23 minutes ago, Livia said:

The fee has no resemblance to the administrative burden.It is all about AS trying to protect club revenue against sailors.

Individual sailors are not members of AS but are called members when they should be called customers.

 

Now I truly don't understand,  who defines the sailpass fees (and who keeps the money); AS or the clubs?

Why does AS have ANY say (or interest) in fees a club charges?

Why would AS care about 'protecting club revenue'?

 

 

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36 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

Now I truly don't understand,  who defines the sailpass fees (and who keeps the money); AS or the clubs?

Why does AS have ANY say (or interest) in fees a club charges?

Why would AS care about 'protecting club revenue'?

 

 

Here's an attempt at an answer:

AS have prescribed that every crew on every boat have an AS number. This is confusing to an extent because as has been said here many times, the individual sailors are not members of AS the clubs are. So while the crew get a number, they are not actually AS members.

What AS is after, again as has been said many times, is a larger number of participants, so they can go to the Australian Government and the Australian Olympic Committee and get higher funding. Not that this helps the majority of racing sailors in Australia.

SailPass is a "clever" way for AS to get its way against the wishes of the broader sailing community that know what is happening. AS says that it is about Insurance and safety but that is a furphy. However, AS allows the member clubs around Australia to set their own fees for SailPass. So I am aware of some clubs that charge nothing. My club gives you three free, and then $8 per race, or you can buy a yearly SailPass - $150 I think. The issue as has been said already is that one club may not recognise the SailPass a crew paid for at another, perhaps even side by side club. So crew may need to pay multiple times.

Unfortunately AS will get its way, because this SailPass imposition is actually raising Club's revenue - in my club it was a 25% increase. Last year AS halved their annual affiliation fees, so every club has made a windfall, particularly when added to government COVID relief payments.

AS does not and cannot set any member club's fees. They charge each club an affiliation fee each year which is tier system based on the number of active sailing members at each club.

AS only care about club's revenue to the extent they can use revenue as a spurious argument to mandate their Prescriptions to rule 46.

Another nasty sting in the tail for me, is that to fully enforce this Prescription, then I believe AS, or the clubs, will mandate crew lists for every race, which will make yacht racing an anathema to anyone who has spent their entire lives competing in one of the most free and inclusive sports there is - or was.

It don't matter to me other than philosophically - I don't race anymore, but I am still Chairman of the club's PC, so am waiting for a test protest.

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1 hour ago, mccroc said:

Another nasty sting in the tail for me, is that to fully enforce this Prescription, then I believe AS, or the clubs, will mandate crew lists for every race, which will make yacht racing an anathema to anyone who has spent their entire lives competing in one of the most free and inclusive sports there is - or was.

I actually have no problem with that part.

You want to go racing on a crewed boat, you provide a list of all the people on board. With up to date contact details

Period.

Say the boat sinks and the skipper is incapacitated for some reason. How is the SAR team supposed to know who they're looking for and contact next of kin etc?

Don't want to do this, no problem.

Don't participate in organised racing. Go cruising or race against your friends, nobody then need know or care who's aboard.

Now this is a different issue to 'must have' SailPass but you're going to get zero support for any attempt to not provide an accurate crew list. I'd regard that as mandatory.

FKT

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56 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I actually have no problem with that part.

You want to go racing on a crewed boat, you provide a list of all the people on board. With up to date contact details

Period.

Say the boat sinks and the skipper is incapacitated for some reason. How is the SAR team supposed to know who they're looking for and contact next of kin etc?

Don't want to do this, no problem.

Don't participate in organised racing. Go cruising or race against your friends, nobody then need know or care who's aboard.

Now this is a different issue to 'must have' SailPass but you're going to get zero support for any attempt to not provide an accurate crew list. I'd regard that as mandatory.

FKT

Well that position if yours may seem straightforward and separate. But I would argue that you conflate the two activities.

What we are dealing with is society having gradually painted ourselves into a corner over "duty of care" issues. It is irrelevant what the context is, whether it be health & safety at Work or leisure pursuits.

The lawyers and bean counters have created business models and revenue streams that are touted as making safer and improving outcomes.

But if you think that the insidious manner in which AS are going to dissuade participation through adding layers of bureaucracy, adminstration and moreover added fees and costs to play isn't going to spread into wider areas - for instance your beloved cruising, then you are very sorely mistaken.

The lobbying by AS will lead to higher burden of insurance and compliance and even mandated training and self reporting to all forms of boating activity. They will quickly realise what untapped potential non racing sailing and boating represent. Look at how powerboats already dominate "yacht" club pens.

They will dress it up as easy to comply with Apps or whatever (for a fee) but the upshot is more layers of complexity and cost to you.

The legislators will love the spin off benefits of being able to plan development, track people behaviour and their spending habits and even change ownership and asset taxes.

We are dealing with the thin end of wedge here. But do not think that because you do not race you are forever isolated or protected from these greedy fuckwits.

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I

You want to go racing on a crewed boat, you provide a list of all the people on board. With up to date contact details

Period.

Say the boat sinks and the skipper is incapacitated for some reason. How is the SAR team supposed to know who they're looking for and contact next of kin etc?

Don't want to do this, no problem.

Don't participate in organised racing. Go cruising or race against your friends, nobody then need know or care who's aboard.

 

Don't quite get the logic, if I go car racing at an organised meet I should use my seatbelt, but if it's a private shopping expedition I shouldn't need to?

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But having said this, one of the things I love about sailing is that you take responsibility for yourself, your boat and your crew.  The increasing level of mandates from authorities takes away some of the sense of achievement you get in planning and executing your voyages safely (in my view).

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Say the boat sinks and the skipper is incapacitated for some reason. How is the SAR team supposed to know who they're looking for and contact next of kin etc?

Remember that most racing around the country is in enclosed waters and pretty benign conditions. Racing in PPB, I'd be surprised if I even got my feet wet in the very unlikely event that a boat sank. (in PPB the mast would likely still be above water). Boats very rarely sink quickly, and with a racing fleet of 20+ in close proximity, there is more danger of getting crushed between hulls than being left in the water. Everyone will be telling tall tales back at the bar well before SAR is mobilised.

I raced my crusing boat on a very ad hoc basis. Most likley either me or a mate would say 'weather looks good, lets do the thursday afternoon race'. We'd ring a few people and see who turned up. I've had people on board I haven't been introduced too until we are settled into a leg. No way I'd be organisaed enough to get a crew list together and submitted to race management. I'm too busy making sure that the anchor is off the bow, we have the right headsail up, we shake out the reef we left in at the weekend etc. to run around doing paper work beyond signing on with a headcount via radio. You kinda hope that folks on board take responsibility for each other - and that when it's my boat I take responsibility to ensure that we sail safely for the skill and happiness levels of people on board.

I don't know of any incident in the last 20 plus years racing keelboats inshore where there has been a problem that everyone submitting a list of people with AS numbers in advance of a race would have helped with. So when the proposal is to introduce a pain in the arse, in order to solve a non problem? I'd prefer my arse without pain thanks.

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3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I actually have no problem with that part.

You want to go racing on a crewed boat, you provide a list of all the people on board. With up to date contact details

Period.

Say the boat sinks and the skipper is incapacitated for some reason. How is the SAR team supposed to know who they're looking for and contact next of kin etc?

Don't want to do this, no problem.

Don't participate in organised racing. Go cruising or race against your friends, nobody then need know or care who's aboard.

Now this is a different issue to 'must have' SailPass but you're going to get zero support for any attempt to not provide an accurate crew list. I'd regard that as mandatory.

FKT

Wow. What a bizarre attitude to have. Have all your races been with randoms that you pick up off the wharf on the way to the boat? And do you regularly lose a few?

Your type of bureaucratic bullshit - "oh what about if an asteroid hits the yacht - who will contact the widows?" is why I despise what is happening with AS. How many times in the last 50 years has someone been lost off a yacht racing in enclosed waters where a victim was unable to be identified - has it ever happened? I doubt it. Let's compare it to a car crash -  can paramedics look up a website to get all the details of the driver and passengers? And how many car crashes are there each week compared to yacht collisions? It's just a bullshit argument, coming from what I believe to be a very flawed viewpoint. 

People have been yacht racing for well over 150 years. Nothing has basically changed in that time that requires this nanny state bullshit. 

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I suppose the problem with providing a crew list to the RO is that it's the first step towards one day having to send a crew list to the coast guard or police every time you go for a daysail or going fishing. 

Given the way we go so super nanny-state here, I would not go past them wanting that one day.

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3 hours ago, Se7en said:

...

I don't know of any incident in the last 20 plus years racing keelboats inshore where there has been a problem that everyone submitting a list of people with AS numbers in advance of a race would have helped with. 

Agreed.  Perhaps @grs would like to chime in with a few examples?

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6 hours ago, Se7en said:

Remember that most racing around the country is in enclosed waters and pretty benign conditions. Racing in PPB, I'd be surprised if I even got my feet wet in the very unlikely event that a boat sank. (in PPB the mast would likely still be above water). Boats very rarely sink quickly, and with a racing fleet of 20+ in close proximity, there is more danger of getting crushed between hulls than being left in the water. Everyone will be telling tall tales back at the bar well before SAR is mobilised.

I raced my crusing boat on a very ad hoc basis. Most likley either me or a mate would say 'weather looks good, lets do the thursday afternoon race'. We'd ring a few people and see who turned up. I've had people on board I haven't been introduced too until we are settled into a leg. No way I'd be organisaed enough to get a crew list together and submitted to race management. I'm too busy making sure that the anchor is off the bow, we have the right headsail up, we shake out the reef we left in at the weekend etc. to run around doing paper work beyond signing on with a headcount via radio. You kinda hope that folks on board take responsibility for each other - and that when it's my boat I take responsibility to ensure that we sail safely for the skill and happiness levels of people on board.

I don't know of any incident in the last 20 plus years racing keelboats inshore where there has been a problem that everyone submitting a list of people with AS numbers in advance of a race would have helped with. So when the proposal is to introduce a pain in the arse, in order to solve a non problem? I'd prefer my arse without pain thanks.

 

2 hours ago, Recidivist said:

Agreed.  Perhaps @grs would like to chime in with a few examples?

This is the problem.

AS are using the provision of Insurance cover and the protection to both owners and crews alike to protect their assests, estates and livelihoods from the lawyers who would come hunting, yet it is the same lawyer advice who has advised that this is way to leverage control (and thereby fees) of the sport.

So let's establish the actual risk represented by the sport over the past 20 years or so (e.g. since '98 Sydney Hobart) to establish by category - the numbers of incidents, claims and payouts that has led to this so called "need" to foist all this administration and fees upon the sport.

Anecdotally I suspect it would be very few and far between - both in case numbers and actual claim payouts. But let's have @grs or @Stanno (other handle here) put us in the facts that are driving this seismic shift.

The whole reference to members whilst not actually being a member is just indicative of the deceit at play here.

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As said before the insurance is bullshit, better off claiming the dole

https://networksteadfast.com.au/industries-and-associations/sailing/individuals-and-member-insurance/

Loss of Income

Weekly Benefit 100% of pre-Injury Salary, if prevented from working in your Occupation up to a maximum of $300 per week. The benefit period is 52 weeks and the excess is 7 days.

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Yes, I know two people that tried to claim and they had to go through their own insurance and the boat owners insurance before the AS insurance would think of covering whatever was left.

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4 hours ago, Recidivist said:

Agreed.  Perhaps @grs would like to chime in with a few examples?

I see the Dinah is all AS affiliated now. WTF happened there?

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6 hours ago, mccroc said:

Wow. What a bizarre attitude to have. Have all your races been with randoms that you pick up off the wharf on the way to the boat? And do you regularly lose a few?

Remember that FKT does very little (if any) racing, and mostly sails shorthanded in Southern Tasmania. So the sailing he experiences is a bit longer, more remote and with less other boats around than Wednesday afternoon white sail wonders. Sinking south of Bruny in changeable weather would make me a lot more nervous than going for a swim a couple of miles off brighton beach.

I don't think anyone is arguing that crew lists are a bad idea for offshore races. Just total overkill for a doddle around the bouys in 22 degree inshore waters.

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10 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

You want to go racing on a crewed boat, you provide a list of all the people on board. With up to date contact details

Period.

You would always have a crew list and a crew NoK for the crew with the boat emergency contact for as long as I can remember.

My boats emergency contact was my partner. Who knew all the crew as did most of the other partners. Very simple and  effective support network. It: 

  • worked very well, and
  • didn't require a centralised database nor registration by AS of every punter.

A database AS flaunt to gain relevance and standing as a representative body of the sport. 

Whilst wholly focussed on Olympic money and the accompanying veneer of respectability. 

Oh. And disgust and contempt. 

Which is probably why the thread.  

 

 

 

    

 

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11 hours ago, Boink said:

Well that position if yours may seem straightforward and separate. But I would argue that you conflate the two activities.

What we are dealing with is society having gradually painted ourselves into a corner over "duty of care" issues. It is irrelevant what the context is, whether it be health & safety at Work or leisure pursuits.

The lawyers and bean counters have created business models and revenue streams that are touted as making safer and improving outcomes.

But if you think that the insidious manner in which AS are going to dissuade participation through adding layers of bureaucracy, adminstration and moreover added fees and costs to play isn't going to spread into wider areas - for instance your beloved cruising, then you are very sorely mistaken.

The lobbying by AS will lead to higher burden of insurance and compliance and even mandated training and self reporting to all forms of boating activity. They will quickly realise what untapped potential non racing sailing and boating represent. Look at how powerboats already dominate "yacht" club pens.

They will dress it up as easy to comply with Apps or whatever (for a fee) but the upshot is more layers of complexity and cost to you.

The legislators will love the spin off benefits of being able to plan development, track people behaviour and their spending habits and even change ownership and asset taxes.

We are dealing with the thin end of wedge here. But do not think that because you do not race you are forever isolated or protected from these greedy fuckwits.

@Boink I seriously didnt think i would be agreeing with anything much you have to say after your strange comments in my Wetted surface area Rules thread, yet here iam agreeing with every word of this post. 

3 hours ago, Boink said:

 

This is the problem.

AS are using the provision of Insurance cover and the protection to both owners and crews alike to protect their assests, estates and livelihoods from the lawyers who would come hunting, yet it is the same lawyer advice who has advised that this is way to leverage control (and thereby fees) of the sport.

So let's establish the actual risk represented by the sport over the past 20 years or so (e.g. since '98 Sydney Hobart) to establish by category - the numbers of incidents, claims and payouts that has led to this so called "need" to foist all this administration and fees upon the sport.

Anecdotally I suspect it would be very few and far between - both in case numbers and actual claim payouts. But let's have @grs or @Stanno (other handle here) put us in the facts that are driving this seismic shift.

The whole reference to members whilst not actually being a member is just indicative of the deceit at play here.

Again, agreed 110%.

The public website published AS material will in NO WAY reflect the material submitted regularly to the Government and Legislative bodies they are fondling inorder to gain future $,s and ultimately “Governance” at the legislative level of EVERY level of Sailing. I bet the mantra is something akin to:

“By standardising the training and assessment progression of competence for our current and future stakeholders via our framework We will achieve a safer, more diverse and inclusive Sport for all Australians, whilst setting the Gold Standard for other nations to follow.

Although training and assessment are key to ensuring Risk is managed to levels that are as low as possible,AS also has the the ability to ensure compliance via our terrific “Sailpass” database, which allows the monitoring of training and also highlights any potential compliance shortfalls and ongoing areas for stakeholder improvement in very specific detail. We would like the Government to partner with us in this mutually beneficial win win endeavour initially.. Lets make Australia Great again.”

Fun licenses and microchips here we come?

You cant bullshit a bullshitter very easily, but unfortunately money talks and cunts gonna cunt.

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5 hours ago, Boink said:

 

 

Anecdotally I suspect it would be very few and far between - both in case numbers and actual claim payouts. But let's have @grs or @Stanno (other handle here) put us in the facts that are driving this seismic shift.

 

Hey Boink - I can absolutely say I am not GRS's second name on this forum ... my name is Chris Stannage and I'm actually an insurance lawyer of almost 30 years (my firm is called Saltwater Insurance Consultants ... www.saltwaterinsurance.com ) as well as President of Hunters Hill Sailing Club in Sydney.  And, as AS will readily attest, constantly calling out issues with the AS insurance program, the Discover Sailing Centre Agreement (HHSC now has a standalone agreement we negotiated with AS) and the AS participation numbers (which drive us nuts as we know from counting boats on the bay that kids aren't coming through from programs like Tackers).  Further, you'll note from our Club website no mention of Sailpass... we have used it twice in three years but it isn't actually relevant to our off the beach, volunteer dinghy club. When I jump on a yacht its to have a fun day on the Harbour rather than race, but as members of a Club affiliated with AS its a moot point for me and my family anyway. 

I know of very few cases that have made it all the way through to the AS insurance program - the wording is very much a "after all other avenues are exhausted" type policy. I have constantly advised Clubs to ensure that their public liability insurances are up to scratch, and encourage owners to do the same.  I have informally tried to help a couple of injured volunteers claim on the AS program, and each have given ups, despite having clear cases. Neither was inclined to proceed against the club for damages for their injuries. 

I don't have any sense of how many claims are made on the AS program, how many are paid and the quantum of claims either individually or on an aggregated basis.  

If you want to pick up the phone and have a chat some time, my number is on my firm website or the HHSC club website.  

Cheers

Stanno.

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17 hours ago, mccroc said:

Wow. What a bizarre attitude to have. Have all your races been with randoms that you pick up off the wharf on the way to the boat? And do you regularly lose a few?

Your type of bureaucratic bullshit - "oh what about if an asteroid hits the yacht - who will contact the widows?" is why I despise what is happening with AS. How many times in the last 50 years has someone been lost off a yacht racing in enclosed waters where a victim was unable to be identified - has it ever happened? I doubt it. Let's compare it to a car crash -  can paramedics look up a website to get all the details of the driver and passengers? And how many car crashes are there each week compared to yacht collisions? It's just a bullshit argument, coming from what I believe to be a very flawed viewpoint. 

People have been yacht racing for well over 150 years. Nothing has basically changed in that time that requires this nanny state bullshit. 

Don't care.

You might have noticed that duty of care & insurance type stuff has changed in the last 150 years.

Or maybe you haven't.

I reiterate, I don't care.

Far as I'm concerned, a crew list isn't an unreasonable ask. If you disagree, you're free to do so.

And FWIW I'm the anarchist type. I don't do rules if I can help it.

But I do have the ability to recognise & mitigate risk. Especially when the cost of doing so is fuck-all. You can't text or email the race officials a list of who's on board your boat and their contact details? Kindly stop insulting my intelligence.

SailPass is another matter. AS can FOAD as far as I'm concerned.

Whatever, no skin off of my nose if you manage to piss off a number of people who'd otherwise support you and no skin off of my nose if you take your toy home and don't race it.

FKT

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10 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

You would always have a crew list and a crew NoK for the crew with the boat emergency contact for as long as I can remember.

My boats emergency contact was my partner. Who knew all the crew as did most of the other partners. Very simple and  effective support network. It: 

  • worked very well, and
  • didn't require a centralised database nor registration by AS of every punter.

A database AS flaunt to gain relevance and standing as a representative body of the sport. 

Whilst wholly focussed on Olympic money and the accompanying veneer of respectability. 

Oh. And disgust and contempt. 

Which is probably why the thread. 

As I've said, I see a crew list as common sense and I'm actually surprised that people think it's some form of imposition.

That's not support for AS or their SailPass as an attempt to shoe-horn clubs et al into their 'inflate the numbers' scam. AS can FOAD as far as I'm concerned.

Fuck's sake, look at the examples of shit hitting the fan WITHOUT crew/pax lists. I wonder if you guys objecting have ever done anything other than flat water sailing. I spent a big chunk of my working life in the deep ocean.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

As I've said, I see a crew list as common sense and I'm actually surprised that people think it's some form of imposition.

That's not support for AS or their SailPass as an attempt to shoe-horn clubs et al into their 'inflate the numbers' scam. AS can FOAD as far as I'm concerned.

Fuck's sake, look at the examples of shit hitting the fan WITHOUT crew/pax lists. I wonder if you guys objecting have ever done anything other than flat water sailing. I spent a big chunk of my working life in the deep ocean.

FKT

The why post on the topic that is almost 100% talking about RRS 46 imposition on enclosed waters Club racing? I get that you don't race and only cruise offshore, so in other words AS means nothing in your world. What the rest of us are talking about has no relevance to you, but is important to us.

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12 hours ago, 00seven said:

I see the Dinah is all AS affiliated now. WTF happened there?

Shit, really?  That's really the fall of a last bastion!  All that rugged individualism disappeared when the place became the local watering hole for a gentrified neighbourhood full of million-dollar townhouses. They'll be sailing Beneteaus next.  Oh, wait ...

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20 minutes ago, Recidivist said:

Shit, really?  That's really the fall of a last bastion!  All that rugged individualism disappeared when the place became the local watering hole for a gentrified neighbourhood full of million-dollar townhouses. They'll be sailing Beneteaus next.  Oh, wait ...

RRS n everything for wet season races. Sail pass applies. 

Bullshit hey

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10 minutes ago, 00seven said:

RRS n everything for wet season races. Sail pass applies. 

Bullshit hey

Bloody hell - but I bet the handicapping is still crooked as!

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8 hours ago, Stanno said:

Hey Boink - I can absolutely say I am not GRS's second name on this forum ... my name is Chris Stannage and I'm actually an insurance lawyer of almost 30 years (my firm is called Saltwater Insurance Consultants ... www.saltwaterinsurance.com ) as well as President of Hunters Hill Sailing Club in Sydney.  And, as AS will readily attest, constantly calling out issues with the AS insurance program, the Discover Sailing Centre Agreement (HHSC now has a standalone agreement we negotiated with AS) and the AS participation numbers (which drive us nuts as we know from counting boats on the bay that kids aren't coming through from programs like Tackers).  Further, you'll note from our Club website no mention of Sailpass... we have used it twice in three years but it isn't actually relevant to our off the beach, volunteer dinghy club. When I jump on a yacht its to have a fun day on the Harbour rather than race, but as members of a Club affiliated with AS its a moot point for me and my family anyway. 

I know of very few cases that have made it all the way through to the AS insurance program - the wording is very much a "after all other avenues are exhausted" type policy. I have constantly advised Clubs to ensure that their public liability insurances are up to scratch, and encourage owners to do the same.  I have informally tried to help a couple of injured volunteers claim on the AS program, and each have given ups, despite having clear cases. Neither was inclined to proceed against the club for damages for their injuries. 

I don't have any sense of how many claims are made on the AS program, how many are paid and the quantum of claims either individually or on an aggregated basis.  

If you want to pick up the phone and have a chat some time, my number is on my firm website or the HHSC club website.  

Cheers

Stanno.

Hi Stanno

Thousand apologies, and appreciate the clarification. The connection seemed solid under the context.

Also happenstance that you do what you do and have direct and relevant knowledge of the matters at hand and anecdotally supply yet more evidence of the worthlessness of the AS insurance scheme, upon which they have then based their drive into cementing their so called control of the sport through Sailpass and the need to associate with them......

Fairwinds and smooth water to you.

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4 minutes ago, Recidivist said:

Bloody hell - but I bet the handicapping is still crooked as!

Australia Day stern chaser start times are up. Based on current club handicaps multis start on the 27th

 

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10 hours ago, Stanno said:

Hey Boink - I can absolutely say I am not GRS's second name on this forum ... my name is Chris Stannage...

And I can absolutely say I am not Stanno's second name on this forum... my name is Glen Stanaway.

 

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16 minutes ago, grs said:

And I can absolutely say I am not Stanno's second name on this forum... my name is Glen Stanaway.

 

Whilst you are here, why not provide some info about how many claims, etc have been made on the AS insurance?

 

It would be nice to have some hard facts to provide a clearer picture.

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14 minutes ago, Pipe Dream said:

Whilst you are here, why not provide some info about how many claims, etc have been made on the AS insurance?

 

It would be nice to have some hard facts to provide a clearer picture.

And how many have actually been paid out more to the point Pipe.

Claytons Insurance by AS.

‘The insurance you have when you don’t have insurance.’

3AFC016D-1DC7-42AF-A564-24472C9DAB10.png

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20 minutes ago, grs said:

And I can absolutely say I am not Stanno's second name on this forum... my name is Glen Stanaway.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Pipe Dream said:

Whilst you are here, why not provide some info about how many claims, etc have been made on the AS insurance?

 

It would be nice to have some hard facts to provide a clearer picture.

Yes, a clear and transparent presentation of the facts would be most appreciated by the "members", or is that "subjects", of Australian Sailing.

Seeing as all of this insurance is created primarily to keep us all safe, some breakdown of premiums generated, claims submitted, and claims paid and even by which category of racing......E.g. dinghy, inshore & offshore......

I can't yet find any examples of benefits being paid to claimants. Please correct my skewed perception of this whole matter. Currently my perception is that the only beneficiary is AS and the underwriters, especially as so much has been staked upon this foundation of making our sport safer.....

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Personal experience with insurers supports Livia's earlier claim...that AS coverage is the insurance of last resort. This means that as a crew member, first I claim personal insurance, then sue the boat owner and then event management and if all of that fails....AS will pay "up to $300 a week...for a year".

I experienced serious spinal injury...and claimed on my personal insurance. My insurer was furious that I wasn't prepared to sue the boat owner (a mate)...or the event management. They held up payments to my hospital. The Hospital thought it was outrageous and continued treatment saying that I needn't be concerned and that their 'legals' would sort it out. They did. 

AS "insurance" is worthless in my experience...I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I too would like full disclosure on claims actually made & paid....

 

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3 hours ago, Boink said:

 

Yes, a clear and transparent presentation of the facts would be most appreciated by the "members", or is that "subjects", of Australian Sailing.

Seeing as all of this insurance is created primarily to keep us all safe, some breakdown of premiums generated, claims submitted, and claims paid and even by which category of racing......E.g. dinghy, inshore & offshore......

I can't yet find any examples of benefits being paid to claimants. Please correct my skewed perception of this whole matter. Currently my perception is that the only beneficiary is AS and the underwriters, especially as so much has been staked upon this foundation of making our sport safer.....

Not really setting any precedents, but we've had two payouts in our skiff fleet.

One for a broken toe kicking a slightly raised centerboard in a tack (raised in heavy weather)

One for a tooth loosened by being hit by a trapeze handle.

It covered (very low in the circumstances) medical costs and I recall paid out $250 for the broken toe.

No neglignece issues, so no other insurers. And they only became aware of the possibility when I pointed it out to them and helped them through the claim; although the policy words was pretty imponderable and took a while for me (a non-insurance lawyer) to work it out because of the way it was schedulised.

Both individuals were independant but youngish and not flash with cash, so it helped.

But at the higher level of serious injury, I agree it's junk insurance; especially the income cover.

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17 minutes ago, Couta said:

Personal experience with insurers supports Livia's earlier claim...that AS coverage is the insurance of last resort. This means that as a crew member, first I claim personal insurance, then sue the boat owner and then event management and if all of that fails....AS will pay "up to $300 a week...for a year".

I experienced serious spinal injury...and claimed on my personal insurance. My insurer was furious that I wasn't prepared to sue the boat owner (a mate)...or the event management. They held up payments to my hospital. The Hospital thought it was outrageous and continued treatment saying that I needn't be concerned and that their 'legals' would sort it out. They did. 

AS "insurance" is worthless in my experience...I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I too would like full disclosure on claims actually made & paid....

 

That's a disgraceful example of bad business, and appreciate you putting the story forward.

You point out a very large gap that exists, especially when circumstances are like yours - and you are unwilling to involve friends in your misfortune; especially when the marketing that AS use creates an expectation that such cover is provided by the scheme - but actually it's not worth SFA........ 

(Or as shown above - almost SFA)

Come on Australian Sailing & @grs if this is all just bad optics then put us straight with some facts and evidence.

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50 minutes ago, Boink said:

Come on Australian Sailing & @grs if this is all just bad optics then put us straight with some facts and evidence.

The problem with wanting better insurance is that it will cost more money and so, inevitably, push up AS fees.

Really, the issue here is AS crowing about the insurance as a major membership benefit and justification for pushing things like the rule 46 change; when it's seemingly not. That's where the dishonesty, and therefore the problem really lies.

So yes, facts and evidence would be nice; otherwise they're treating us like idiots. And that just gets people's back up.

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2 hours ago, Rambler said:

Not really setting any precedents, but we've had two payouts in our skiff fleet.

One for a broken toe kicking a slightly raised centerboard in a tack (raised in heavy weather)

One for a tooth loosened by being hit by a trapeze handle.

It covered (very low in the circumstances) medical costs and I recall paid out $250 for the broken toe.

No neglignece issues, so no other insurers. And they only became aware of the possibility when I pointed it out to them and helped them through the claim; although the policy words was pretty imponderable and took a while for me (a non-insurance lawyer) to work it out because of the way it was schedulised.

Both individuals were independant but youngish and not flash with cash, so it helped.

But at the higher level of serious injury, I agree it's junk insurance; especially the income cover.

Now it all makes sense. Keelboat owners and sailors who sail on fully insured keelboats and thus don't need AS insurance are subsidising OTB sailors who's boats are probably not insured.

 

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40 minutes ago, Rambler said:

The problem with wanting better insurance is that it will cost more money and so, inevitably, push up AS fees.

Really, the issue here is AS crowing about the insurance as a major membership benefit and justification for pushing things like the rule 46 change; when it's seemingly not. That's where the dishonesty, and therefore the problem really lies.

So yes, facts and evidence would be nice; otherwise they're treating us like idiots. And that just gets people's back up.

But that is the point.

I don't want any AS prescribed cover foisted upon me at all. And certainly not to be the cornerstone of why I need to be tethered to AS.

They actually need me and my like, more than I need them...... But that is lost in this reframing of our sport.

I have sailed competitively at my risk and at the risk of others for all of my sailing career. To suggest that my cover and safety is improved by this is farcical and an insult to even most intellectually challenged. To determine I need to comply when there is no reciprocal benefit is taking the piss. Crew lists are not a new concept. Clubs are well versed in safe race management - many would argue too cautious already.

I also work construction and am well versed in Lip service legislation that is well intentioned but exceedingly poorly executed. Safety outcomes have pretty much plateaued in that industry. Yet administration and cost burdens continue to rise. However, at least in that game everyone is getting paid....... That does not occur in sailing.

AS have lost sight of how when you make costs of entry too high you discourage participation. Boat Owners have taken the burden of expense in exchange for the glory of recognition come presentation time. Even for owners, it is a very poor time/cost equation. But to spread the burden of cost across the crews in a time poor society will make overall numbers wither and die....... This trend has already been in evidence for quite some time.

The exact reverse mentality should be at work here. Make sailing as low cost for the crew to participate, make the sport desirable and socially vibrant (not a lot of clubs like that anymore......too many dead yacht club bars) And the dollars will naturally flow as crew upgrade their aspirations and spending accordingly...... 

The days of big spending corporate sponsorship seem past in all but French Sailing - and look at their model of school based teaching and community wide engagement. Low cost, high value and teaching a whole range of life, environmental, physical and educational goals.

With out growth in the sport the whole sponsorship gig is either unsustainable or living on borrowed time. Skandia and Audi and Volvo have been courted and departed. There are many, many others....... Unfortunately....... 

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It’s interesting to note that in France the concept of a ‘yacht club’ is more likely to be a storage shed. 
And the sport appears vibrant and healthy. And full of excellent sailors.
Hmmmm....

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3 hours ago, Rambler said:

The problem with wanting better insurance is that it will cost more money and so, inevitably, push up AS fees.

Really, the issue here is AS crowing about the insurance as a major membership benefit and justification for pushing things like the rule 46 change; when it's seemingly not. That's where the dishonesty, and therefore the problem really lies.

So yes, facts and evidence would be nice; otherwise they're treating us like idiots. And that just gets people's back up.

Yep, just dishonesty

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1 hour ago, The Dark Knight said:

Now it all makes sense. Keelboat owners and sailors who sail on fully insured keelboats and thus don't need AS insurance are subsidising OTB sailors who's boats are probably not insured.

 

No, I can assure you the boats are fully insured.

We're talking twin wire racing skiffs here.

But where's the negligence on which any thrid party claim must be based? there is none.

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2 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Now it all makes sense. Keelboat owners and sailors who sail on fully insured keelboats and thus don't need AS insurance are subsidising OTB sailors who's boats are probably not insured.

 

There seems to be a significant and dangerous misunderstanding of what your boat policy covers here.

  • It covers damage to your boat - more or less however caused [with some exclusions]
  • Claims against you for injury or damaged cause to others and their property as a result of your negligence; in other words when you bear some responsibility for the accident.

Sometimes they chuck in a low value personal accident insurance for the skipper/owner too; a bit like the AS policy.

They don't usually cover mere (non negligence) accidents cause to your crew.

Why are you the owner responsible for something your crew does to themselves?

Of course, there can always be an argument about what causes an accident and whether negligence was involved. If a crew person severs fingers in a winch accident (to take a recent YACHT example I'm aware of), is the owner's negligence involved? [no need to write a long answer. Short answer is, it will depend] 

So please don't pick on or make prejudical generalisations about OTB boats. We abide by the same rules.

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And there is the exclusion about unlawful acts.

And every Australian state makes a breach of the Col Regs an unlawful act.

See the problem coming!

But we are AS and we are special!

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4 hours ago, Boink said:

But that is the point.

I don't want any AS prescribed cover foisted upon me at all. And certainly not to be the cornerstone of why I need to be tethered to AS.

They actually need me and my like, more than I need them...... But that is lost in this reframing of our sport.

I have sailed competitively at my risk and at the risk of others for all of my sailing career. To suggest that my cover and safety is improved by this is farcical and an insult to even most intellectually challenged. To determine I need to comply when there is no reciprocal benefit is taking the piss. Crew lists are not a new concept. Clubs are well versed in safe race management - many would argue too cautious already.

I also work construction and am well versed in Lip service legislation that is well intentioned but exceedingly poorly executed. Safety outcomes have pretty much plateaued in that industry. Yet administration and cost burdens continue to rise. However, at least in that game everyone is getting paid....... That does not occur in sailing.

AS have lost sight of how when you make costs of entry too high you discourage participation. Boat Owners have taken the burden of expense in exchange for the glory of recognition come presentation time. Even for owners, it is a very poor time/cost equation. But to spread the burden of cost across the crews in a time poor society will make overall numbers wither and die....... This trend has already been in evidence for quite some time.

The exact reverse mentality should be at work here. Make sailing as low cost for the crew to participate, make the sport desirable and socially vibrant (not a lot of clubs like that anymore......too many dead yacht club bars) And the dollars will naturally flow as crew upgrade their aspirations and spending accordingly...... 

The days of big spending corporate sponsorship seem past in all but French Sailing - and look at their model of school based teaching and community wide engagement. Low cost, high value and teaching a whole range of life, environmental, physical and educational goals.

With out growth in the sport the whole sponsorship gig is either unsustainable or living on borrowed time. Skandia and Audi and Volvo have been courted and departed. There are many, many others....... Unfortunately....... 

Well said.

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Does the AS insurance policy include and define An “act of god” clause? (Asking for an atheist friend that has an international jury allergy).

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15 hours ago, Rambler said:

The problem with wanting better insurance is that it will cost more money and so, inevitably, push up AS fees.

Really, the issue here is AS crowing about the insurance as a major membership benefit and justification for pushing things like the rule 46 change; when it's seemingly not. That's where the dishonesty, and therefore the problem really lies.

So yes, facts and evidence would be nice; otherwise they're treating us like idiots. And that just gets people's back up.

I have 3 clubs paying fees to AS on my behalf. So I get 3 times the payout. Right?

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On 1/13/2022 at 3:48 PM, Recidivist said:

Agreed.  Perhaps @grs would like to chime in with a few examples?

That would take balls I'd imagine, hypothetically

Then again, any response would just be a typical smart arse 'non' response.

I'd rather be sailing.

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Does anyone here have experience of how things work across "the ditch"? Participation in NZ seems to be going from strength to strength. 

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18 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

Does anyone here have experience of how things work across "the ditch"? Participation in NZ seems to be going from strength to strength. 

That’s partially because they don’t have a prescription to RRS 46 and partially because Aunty Cinda won’t let them out

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6 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

That’s partially because they don’t have a prescription to RRS 46 and partially because Aunty Cinda won’t let them out

Yeah but Aussies can clear in again now. 10+ days on passage and you don't need to quarantine on arrival. I think you need neg covid test before departure and on arrival as well.

I heard a rumour from a Canadian cruiser who's been there since before the covid caper that there are rumblings about telling the stranded foreign boats it's time to be moving on.

FKT

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The good news is there are now some vacancies at Tennis Australia. Rumoured that AS CEO is going to TA with GRS tagging along as new rules and visa expert. TA will be introducing ballpass whereby if you attend a game of tennis you will be required to join a tennis club. You get a set of Dunlop volleys if you join a Royal tennis club.

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On 1/14/2022 at 6:58 PM, shaggybaxter said:

It’s interesting to note that in France the concept of a ‘yacht club’ is more likely to be a storage shed. 
And the sport appears vibrant and healthy. And full of excellent sailors.
Hmmmm....

I saw the last "yacht club" being demolished in the La Rochelle marina in Dec 2019, to make way for more hardstand. That marina had pens for over 10,000 yachts.

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On 1/13/2022 at 4:29 PM, grs said:

And I can absolutely say I am not Stanno's second name on this forum... my name is Glen Stanaway.

 

and of all the posts asking you for answers or input, this is the only one you could reply to? no wonder everyone thinks you are a turd.

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Sail Melbourne is done.....the only classes with "fleets" were the 29er...Radial....and Wing Foiler. The rest of the classes had just a handful of entries.

Interested/concerned to see the large number of protests regarding finishing orders....considering the small numbers of craft, there were alot......sure it could be an issue with Wing Foilers & Bibs...but it wasn't restricted to just that fleet...the question of organisational on-water experience/competency has to be asked.

The Finn sailors withdrew in the last week....the general response was that the event was too hard to attend and too expensive. No car parking. No trailer storage. No early drop off.....and $150 with a further $100 late fee...all in a time of Covid. Alternative was local club sailing - 3 races, one day, without the hassle & cost. The value proposition for SailMelb just didn't add up.

Looks like classes run & organised by motivated parents (29er, Radial) and those with easy logistics (Wing Foiler) are doing ok....but "adult" classes are struggling. 

Olympic classes and aspirants "need" a regatta to aggregate the small number of sailors involved....club/non lympix class sailors don't...and resent the costs these events demand. After all, these IJ's, administrators and Organisers have to be paid for! It seems parents are suckers for the lympix and don't question the price of events and coaches...but they are not the backbone of the sport (but that's another story!)

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"Value"....that's the key issue. What Value do we get from spending time sailing? From sailing a particular class? From sailing at a particular club?

The costs are well understood, so we are constantly evaluating the return we get from that investment in $'s and time.....and as demands on time becomes more pressing.....and incomes are less secure...that equation becomes harder to balance.

If AS fails to see this as THE issue...it fails to address its prime purpose. The role of AS is to constantly build Value in the sport's participation, so that everyone sees the role it has in creating that Value.

As it stands...very few see that Value. The result? Division. Acrimony. Contempt. And a sport that is losing its grass- roots appeal.

"RRS, IJs, Olympics etc".....ain't cutting it as a justification.

The participation numbers tell us that.

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39 minutes ago, Couta said:

"Value"....that's the key issue. What Value do we get from spending time sailing? From sailing a particular class? From sailing at a particular club?

The costs are well understood, so we are constantly evaluating the return we get from that investment in $'s and time.....and as demands on time becomes more pressing.....and incomes are less secure...that equation becomes harder to balance.

If AS fails to see this as THE issue...it fails to address its prime purpose. The role of AS is to constantly build Value in the sport's participation, so that everyone sees the role it has in creating that Value.

As it stands...very few see that Value. The result? Division. Acrimony. Contempt. And a sport that is losing its grass- roots appeal.

"RRS, IJs, Olympics etc".....ain't cutting it as a justification.

The participation numbers tell us that.

My point for a long time!

So my three sets of contributions, what do it buy.

Please don’t say the future of the sport.g

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16 hours ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Just attended an event in regional NZ. 35 dinghies over two classes $20 for six races over 2 days.

This is the Value that is completely missing in most sailing.

So good that it still exists in pockets but it's simple really that when there is a complete disconnect between cost and value along with zero or neglible fun then the numbers speak for themselves.

With the unnecessary need for all the Trimmings and accoutrements of a large obese corporate, Australian Sailing is muttering under its breath

- "Qu'ils mangent de la Brioche"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake

 

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19 hours ago, Couta said:

After all, these IJ's, administrators and Organisers have to be paid for!

Not here they don't.

18 hours ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Just attended an event in regional NZ. 35 dinghies over two classes $20 for six races over 2 days.

See the difference.

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There will be much beating of chests after next weeks VX intergalactics at RQ about how they have grown the sport. If 35 boats crewed mainly by 60 year olds is growing the sport.

The insurance issue is very low hanging fruit. In 23 years running my school, we had over 10 000 students pass through- each participating on an average for 4 days. So in that 40 000 sailing days we had one broken arm (when the boat was tied up) one twisted ankle and two minor head injuries that required stitches.

Only the broken arm required a claim on our PI insurance and that was only so they could tell the grubby lawyer representing the student to go fuck themselves as it was a per-existing injury. (She had broken it falling off a motorbike in Bali 4 weeks before) Each boat and the company had 30 million in PI Insurance- not AYF/YA/AS insurance.

When you consider that these were mainly beginners on 40 foot yachts often offshore it proves two things.

1/ The quality of selecting and training of RYA Instructors and;

2/ Sailing is a relative low risk sport.

Previous to the Sailing school I had a career in marketing and the AS insurance is what we called 'Perceived value adding'

It is all about the customers perception, not the reality. (And example is a cosmetics brand we re-launched 'Now with 10% glycerine!' - It always had 10% glycerine)

In regards to getting AS to release data on their insurance claims, You can not expect GRS to respond to anonymous requests on a sailing forum (and quite rightly as well) A request would need to be from a affiliated club.

My 2c worth.

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7 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

Any news of the complaint against MA by MH regarding the unconscionable conduct by MA under the MPP

I thought there was protest about Oskana receiving the Seamanship award!

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10 hours ago, Livia said:

I thought there was protest about Oskana receiving the Seamanship award!

Where did that come from? 

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22 hours ago, LB 15 said:

In regards to getting AS to release data on their insurance claims, You can not expect GRS to respond to anonymous requests on a sailing forum (and quite rightly as well) A request would need to be from a affiliated club.

Well Done on giving GRS the only excuse he and AS will ever want, to not be transparent about their worthless Insurance scam.

To ask for non specific details about total premiums paid, # of claims made, # of claims cases paid and value of claims is a valid request. Especially by those who have to have this scam coverage. No personal or private details are required. Remember it is not the affiliated clubs who hold or pay for the cover - It is the non voting, non member, AS number holders who have no say in the matter. The affiliated clubs are complicit in this foundation of funding and trying to tether crews to their balance sheets - the clubs will not want to upset the AS driven apple cart, even when they tacitly acknowledge it is borderline unethical. 

Coincidence that GRS was also the first to give you a like for your post.......? 

I think not.

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Couta, your obs re sailing melb are pretty right. Seems AS are only interested in pushing Olympics and AS team support, and clearly are not reaching out to the general population.

Also seems that other clubs are maintaining fairly strong fleets eg syc, bryc, my, bys etc.

Not sure that the other clubs are also focussed on growth or seeking  to engage participants...

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1 hour ago, huwp said:

Couta, your obs re sailing melb are pretty right. Seems AS are only interested in pushing Olympics and AS team support, and clearly are not reaching out to the general population.

Also seems that other clubs are maintaining fairly strong fleets eg syc, bryc, my, bys etc.

Not sure that the other clubs are also focussed on growth or seeking  to engage participants...

RMYS is a wedding reception centre with a sideline in sailing which they are trying discourage. Luckily the members are a stubborn lot and keep trying to race even when the club can't be bothered to cater for them. Witty found that out the hard way when he dropped in hoping for a meal one Sunday after the S2H.

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Re. SailPass, I was crewing an RPAYC race the other day (inshore) and a crew list was mandatory. Having a valid SailPass with all your details filled in isn't sufficient, because there's no connection between SailPass and SailSys. So you end up filling out your details twice.

What also came as a surprise was that I'd registered for a free SailPass for the date of the race via RANSA, but then read the RPAYC NOR which modifies Rule 46:

3.9 The attention of Owners and/or Persons-in-Charge is drawn to RRS 46 Person in Charge and Crew eligibility. RRS 46 is amended as follows:
(a) All persons on board that are not members of RPAYC, shall register for a RPAYC Sail Pass for each day they intend to compete in an event or race that is organised by the RPAYC. SailPass registration shall be prior to the event or race starting. All required fields shall be completed.
3.10 Sail Passes acquired at other Clubs, are not valid at RPAYC.

So a SailPass is not enough, in some cases it might need to be a SailPass from the club organizing the event. Fortunately RPAYC's SailPasses are free, but it's not hard to imagine that clubs who charge for SailPasses will probably start requiring a SailPass issued by them.

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8 hours ago, Livia said:

Think about it!

From what I’ve been told Genoa came out of the track and retired from S2H? 

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^^^ Poor starving bastards......I see under the "Operating Expenses" heading that "Sustenance" was down from $245k to just $120k.....someone...quick... pass the hat around!

 

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Will be interesting to see if the ‘Legal Expenses’ jump up around 400% in this yet to be reported current financial year to cover  the MH Member's Protection Policy Tribunal Invoice or will be be hidden somewhere else.Maybe a placed under a new expense entry ‘Ego Massaging’aka ‘I’m upset’

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2 hours ago, DELETED said:

6828A287-4DA6-472B-90F9-9CA76FA72DDD.thumb.png.cc7ab0ed130b54734993d30a104ff635.png

CA1153A0-F89A-47EF-8981-AA67C3FBBEE4.png

Too funny for words.

wondering who the 8 members are now!

So the peak body has eight members, all of which it controls and do not in practical terms exist.

But us non members all pay.

Btw as I have spent all day working on court documents concerning Section 182 and 183 of the Corporations Act, section 182 is improper use of position and section 183 is improper use of information.

Of course there is insurance.

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47 minutes ago, Livia said:

Too funny for words.

wondering who the 8 members are now!

So the peak body has eight members, all of which it controls and do not in practical terms exist.

But us non members all pay.

Btw as I have spent all day working on court documents concerning Section 182 and 183 of the Corporations Act, section 182 is improper use of position and section 183 is improper use of information.

Of course there is insurance.

Bearing in mind that There are Homeless, Young and aged and disabled people and Veterans, Carers,Teachers,Nurses all struggling to feed and find shelter for themselves & their families here in Australia today…

For those so inclined to see Whos Who and Whats what in the Taxpayer Funded Sailing Admin Racket: 

(Disclaimer: i advise removing all breakable objects from your immediate vicinity and wear a neck brace and gumshield whilst reading to prevent injury due to excessive head shaking and teeth grinding).

https://www.sailing.org.au/about/annualreports/

https://www.sailing.org.au/about/quarterly-report/

(Also remember, this is the Publicly published stuff…) Enjoy.

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On 1/18/2022 at 8:31 PM, Livia said:

I thought there was protest about Oskana receiving the Seamanship award!

Maybe they realised you can't give an award to a boat that has retired so they will award it to the boat that selflessly fired off a flare to notify a boat and raised them on Channel 16 to tell them they had a personal Eprib activated

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8 hours ago, Livia said:

Too funny for words.

wondering who the 8 members are now!

So the peak body has eight members, all of which it controls and do not in practical terms exist.

I think the 8 refer to the states and territories associations, which of course no longer exist as they have been swallowed by AS, if that’s the case then technically they have no members!

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3 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

I think the 8 refer to the states and territories associations, which of course no longer exist as they have been swallowed by AS, if that’s the case then technically they have no members!

Any state official that voted in OneSailing should be seat adrift 50 miles offshore in westerly gale.

Might contribute to Mr Beck’s campaign fund today and do the odd company search.

Last time I looked, at least three of the members where zombie entities and now Tasmania has joined them.

Then again Australia has a proud and distinguished history of national organisations taking over state ones and appropriating the assets.

The unions have played the game since federation.

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19 hours ago, atnan said:

Re. SailPass, I was crewing an RPAYC race the other day (inshore) and a crew list was mandatory. Having a valid SailPass with all your details filled in isn't sufficient, because there's no connection between SailPass and SailSys. So you end up filling out your details twice.

What also came as a surprise was that I'd registered for a free SailPass for the date of the race via RANSA, but then read the RPAYC NOR which modifies Rule 46:

3.9 The attention of Owners and/or Persons-in-Charge is drawn to RRS 46 Person in Charge and Crew eligibility. RRS 46 is amended as follows:
(a) All persons on board that are not members of RPAYC, shall register for a RPAYC Sail Pass for each day they intend to compete in an event or race that is organised by the RPAYC. SailPass registration shall be prior to the event or race starting. All required fields shall be completed.
3.10 Sail Passes acquired at other Clubs, are not valid at RPAYC.

So a SailPass is not enough, in some cases it might need to be a SailPass from the club organizing the event. Fortunately RPAYC's SailPasses are free, but it's not hard to imagine that clubs who charge for SailPasses will probably start requiring a SailPass issued by them.

Well that is exactly the shit attitude that comes from AS and filters down to the clubs. Even though they may be free of charge, it means AS counts you numerous times. It is a rort that makes the pollies look like amateurs. Why does RPAYC want all of your contact details? What are they going to do with those details? Is their privacy policy acceptable? Do you have to have 5G on your phone?

How many other clubs will do this? Will AS endorse this as a reasonable thing to do?

Interestingly, I have told a number of my fellow club members that I have given up racing - none are surprised. These are all members in their late 60s and 70s. It will irrevocably hurt club yacht racing.

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On 1/19/2022 at 12:03 PM, Boink said:

Well Done on giving GRS the only excuse he and AS will ever want, to not be transparent about their worthless Insurance scam.

To ask for non specific details about total premiums paid, # of claims made, # of claims cases paid and value of claims is a valid request. Especially by those who have to have this scam coverage. No personal or private details are required. Remember it is not the affiliated clubs who hold or pay for the cover - It is the non voting, non member, AS number holders who have no say in the matter. The affiliated clubs are complicit in this foundation of funding and trying to tether crews to their balance sheets - the clubs will not want to upset the AS driven apple cart, even when they tacitly acknowledge it is borderline unethical. 

Coincidence that GRS was also the first to give you a like for your post.......? 

I think not.

Like I said the correct way to access this info is via a request from a club. I can imagine the IT manager at AS asking Glen who wants the information. 'Why its for 'Boink' 'LB 15', 'Pusslicker' and 'Fark you to'.

I too would like to see the stats. Might even ask my club to do it but they have a bit on with the Surf 2 City this weekend.

And I have given your post a 'like' so you don't feel left out.

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