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On 2/18/2022 at 12:56 PM, duncan (the other one) said:

Honestly.. this has got to be the biggest pile of generalising and whiny shit-stain I've ever heard.

  1. If you don't like your club's admin - then step up and volunteer
  2. If you don't like your clubs race management - then step up and volunteer
  3. If you don't like your club - join another one.

It is a gross insult to say "club administration has more in common with AS than they do with sailing members".

This may be true of some clubs -- but not most.

The 'us and them' attitude is being driven by YOU, not the club administration or race management teams.

 

So I see your rant is (not surprisingly) supported by GRS...hmmm.. damned with faint praise there Dunc.

FYI...I've done 10 yrs on committee, 2 yrs as commodore....run learn to sail programs for juniors and adults for decades....raced worldwide at all levels, been heavily involved with the sailing industry, and been a fee paying member of an affiliated club for over 50 years....so 'Scuse me for having an informed opinion.

"Generalising and whiny shit stain"? Mate...it's an observation based on lived experience at every level....happy to compare credentials.

I absolutely stand by my comments...and the fact that clubs continue to affiliate with an org that does little to represent the needs and aspirations of the clubs' members is testament to that fact. I stand by the fact that sailors interests are not represented by AS.

AS is an institutional extortion racket...offering most sailors and clubs poor value for the money they demand for affiliation. Clubs are too busy trying to build/maintain their membership to fight the racket...afraid that retaliation will only make things worse. Look at the money your club pays AS... then consider what that annual investment could deliver if spent within the club. That is the value GAP that AS has to bridge to become relevant. It's that simple.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Couta said:

So I see your rant is (not surprisingly) supported by GRS...hmmm.. damned with faint praise there Dunc.

FYI...I've done 10 yrs on committee, 2 yrs as commodore....run learn to sail programs for juniors and adults for decades....raced worldwide at all levels, been heavily involved with the sailing industry, and been a fee paying member of an affiliated club for over 50 years....so 'Scuse me for having an informed opinion.

"Generalising and whiny shit stain"? Mate...it's an observation based on lived experience at every level....happy to compare credentials.

I absolutely stand by my comments...and the fact that clubs continue to affiliate with an org that does little to represent the needs and aspirations of the clubs' members is testament to that fact. I stand by the fact that sailors interests are not represented by AS.

AS is an institutional extortion racket...offering most sailors and clubs poor value for the money they demand for affiliation. Clubs are too busy trying to build/maintain their membership to fight the racket...afraid that retaliation will only make things worse. Look at the money your club pays AS... then consider what that annual investment could deliver if spent within the club. That is the value GAP that AS has to bridge to become relevant. It's that simple.

 

 

Like he said.

Exactly.

 

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9 hours ago, Couta said:

So I see your rant is (not surprisingly) supported by GRS...hmmm.. damned with faint praise there Dunc.

FYI...I've done 10 yrs on committee, 2 yrs as commodore....run learn to sail programs for juniors and adults for decades....raced worldwide at all levels, been heavily involved with the sailing industry, and been a fee paying member of an affiliated club for over 50 years....so 'Scuse me for having an informed opinion.

"Generalising and whiny shit stain"? Mate...it's an observation based on lived experience at every level....happy to compare credentials.

I absolutely stand by my comments...and the fact that clubs continue to affiliate with an org that does little to represent the needs and aspirations of the clubs' members is testament to that fact. I stand by the fact that sailors interests are not represented by AS.

AS is an institutional extortion racket...offering most sailors and clubs poor value for the money they demand for affiliation. Clubs are too busy trying to build/maintain their membership to fight the racket...afraid that retaliation will only make things worse. Look at the money your club pays AS... then consider what that annual investment could deliver if spent within the club. That is the value GAP that AS has to bridge to become relevant. It's that simple.

So in essence you spent all that time & effort in a club, fighting AS all the way, stating with conviction that affiliation was poor value for money and that AS was basically running a protection/extortion racket, yes?

And the outcome was, the club affiliated & remains to this day affiliated, yes?

Basically you're saying that despite your best efforts there was no way you could convince your fellow club members that they should listen to you and disaffiliate.

So where do you go after that conclusion?

FKT

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4 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

So in essence you spent all that time & effort in a club, fighting AS all the way, stating with conviction that affiliation was poor value for money and that AS was basically running a protection/extortion racket, yes?

And the outcome was, the club affiliated & remains to this day affiliated, yes?

Basically you're saying that despite your best efforts there was no way you could convince your fellow club members that they should listen to you and disaffiliate.

So where do you go after that conclusion?

FKT

FKT, we know your position on this whole sorry state of affairs.

However, do not confuse nor conflate the issue of first identifying underhand and shitty behaviour with the process of adoption or understanding of that behaviour by the wider public.

Most of the sailing public are blissfully unaware of the corporatization of our sport by AS for their benefit. And as a result, of the money that they get to siphon away, for actual little or no returned benefit. 

But just because the wider sailing public doesn't get it at the first utterance does not make the message less valid or worthy to pursue.

So dismiss all you like or criticise, but make your contribution a positive criticism. Otherwise you are perceived as just sniping from afar.

History is full of parallel stories of how wisdom was too slowly adopted by the masses at great personal cost. 

Let's not make the sport of Sailing in Oz any more handicapped by inept governance than it has to.

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14 hours ago, Couta said:

So I see your rant is (not surprisingly) supported by GRS...hmmm.. damned with faint praise there Dunc.

FYI...I've done 10 yrs on committee, 2 yrs as commodore....run learn to sail programs for juniors and adults for decades....raced worldwide at all levels, been heavily involved with the sailing industry, and been a fee paying member of an affiliated club for over 50 years....so 'Scuse me for having an informed opinion.

"Generalising and whiny shit stain"? Mate...it's an observation based on lived experience at every level....happy to compare credentials.

I absolutely stand by my comments...and the fact that clubs continue to affiliate with an org that does little to represent the needs and aspirations of the clubs' members is testament to that fact. I stand by the fact that sailors interests are not represented by AS.

AS is an institutional extortion racket...offering most sailors and clubs poor value for the money they demand for affiliation. Clubs are too busy trying to build/maintain their membership to fight the racket...afraid that retaliation will only make things worse. Look at the money your club pays AS... then consider what that annual investment could deliver if spent within the club. That is the value GAP that AS has to bridge to become relevant. It's that simple.

 

 

Couta,

 

I agree with your comments on clubs being captive to AS, what I strongly disagree with is your statement that:

"club administration has more in common with AS than they do with sailing members...and there's always an "accreditation" to be achieved...and the promise of the possibility of travel to a sanctioned regatta and expenses in return for their ongoing commitment. "

That may well be true of some clubs, but it is a gross generalisation.  Any club/organisation is as corrupt as its members let it get, they need to actively participate in elections, or they will get the leaders they deserve, good and hard.

"It highlights the "us & them" we see at every club....racing sailors need race course admin...but few of those admin have really raced at a high level (if at all)...and when there's an on course screw up, we, the sailors criticise them...so naturally they're drawn to the support they feel they get from AS."

You've stated the solution -  Sailors need to stop whining and step up for these roles.  I'm glad to hear you have, but as you well know, the majority do not.

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1 hour ago, Boink said:

Most of the sailing public are blissfully unaware of the corporatization of our sport by AS for their benefit. And as a result, of the money that they get to siphon away, for actual little or no returned benefit. 

I wouldn't say that.  AS puts their focus exactly where most of their money comes from - Olympic funding.

The average sailor joe's affiliation fees are a wee drop in the trough of taxpayer largesse.

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18 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

I wouldn't say that.  AS puts their focus exactly where most of their money comes from - Olympic funding.

The average sailor joe's affiliation fees are a wee drop in the trough of taxpayer largesse.

But Olympic funding has a ring fence around it and can only be used for the Olympic athletes and their hangers on. I think sponsorship is the biggest source of income for servicing the rest of us mere mortals. All the important stuff like Wages for people in suits, CBD offices, sending suits to conferences and writing vision documents. And now the 'Culture Crew' will need some freight for some new polo shirts, a logo and a few brain storming lunches and team building events.

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33 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

Any club/organisation is as corrupt as its members let it get, they need to actively participate in elections, or they will get the leaders they deserve, good and hard.

With the greatest of respect Dunc, you should read the constitutions of some clubs. These places are not democracies.

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

With the greatest of respect Dunc, you should read the constitutions of some clubs. These places are not democracies.

But you always have the option of voting with your feet.

Or not.

FKT

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Ok ... on this forum we've tossed a bit around on the AS Personal Accident Policy and its utility, or lack thereof.  On behalf of my Club Hunters Hill SC, I've just completed an online survey that AS have up on their website .... there may be a few more of you that could contribute as well and give AS some concrete issues to work on - here is the link

https://www.sailing.org.au/news/australian-sailing-personal-accident-insurance-review-survey/ 

 

Issues we have stressed include the challenging and unfriendly nature of the claims process; the "last to pay" model after liability and private health insurances; the lack of transparency on the claims performance of the facility generally and the truly dreadful concept that even though a sailor may be a paid up member of an affiliated sailing club, they will have no cover should they participate in sailing at an event run by a non affiliated club.  I mean, who has ever checked affiliation of any club they have ever gone to? We have called for 24/7 coverage on a "first paid" lump sum basis for members of affiliated clubs participating in sailing, whether competing, training, sailing for fun, volunteering etc etc.   We recognised that it is unlikely to be commercial for the policy to indemnify all sailors whether they were members of affiliated clubs or not. 

Now, the next thing to do is get one's head around the new AS "Strategic Plan" ... I've seen the short and long form versions published, but have yet to find anything that looks even remotely like an actual concrete plan ... sigh. 

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5 hours ago, Dark Cloud said:

In QLD they vote with their chairs

I'm just about to join a QLD club. Do I bring my own chair or do they give me one when I sign up?

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13 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

So in essence you spent all that time & effort in a club, fighting AS all the way, stating with conviction that affiliation was poor value for money and that AS was basically running a protection/extortion racket, yes?

And the outcome was, the club affiliated & remains to this day affiliated, yes?

Basically you're saying that despite your best efforts there was no way you could convince your fellow club members that they should listen to you and disaffiliate.

So where do you go after that conclusion?

FKT

To the backbenches...obviously! As I said in my earlier piece...the admin of a club...the people who man the start boats every week...those that chase down qualified (AS) instructors for the junior & adult sailing programs (to meet implied insurance risks!)....they are the backbone of the club...and they feel part of the AS program. The sailors in the club....they just want to go sailing and not do the admin....so they aren't that bothered....most club officials never even stop to think of what AS contributes in real terms...so, through club ignorance, apathy and intimidation, AS rolls on. It'd take a massive upheaval to instigate change, and most admins are just trying to serve out their term without rocking the boat....

And from the backbenches I make my observations, now focussing on just enjoying my sport with the least input from AS as possible....cruising, deliveries...and sailing my Finn, a class that has been screwed by AS and WS...but continues to grow in spite of that!

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Dunc..your comment: "Any club/organisation is as corrupt as its members let it get, they need to actively participate in elections, or they will get the leaders they deserve, good and hard." suggests you've misinterpreted my point...or that I wasn't being clear.

I'm not suggesting my club's admin is corrupt...they are the hard working, honest, committed backbone of the club...running mid-week schools programs, girlsail, class regattas (state & national) and the week in, week out club sailing program. My point is that all of them, in the pursuit of delivering these events has become enthralled with the AS process...getting "qualified"...and in the process...indoctrinated into doing things the AS way. These people aren't sailors, they are race administrators...and they see themselves as AS acolytes. They don't stop to ask "what is the AS doing for my club?"...and some see the opportunity to become a PRO and have expenses covered as they get their passport stamped in the AS regatta books....along with the professional coaches and semi-pro PRO's, the international jurors and all the added expenses....It creates a dichotomy in the club when it comes to the perceived role of AS....That's what I mean by "us & them".

 

 

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9 hours ago, Couta said:

Dunc..your comment: "Any club/organisation is as corrupt as its members let it get, they need to actively participate in elections, or they will get the leaders they deserve, good and hard." suggests you've misinterpreted my point...or that I wasn't being clear.

I'm not suggesting my club's admin is corrupt...they are the hard working, honest, committed backbone of the club...running mid-week schools programs, girlsail, class regattas (state & national) and the week in, week out club sailing program. My point is that all of them, in the pursuit of delivering these events has become enthralled with the AS process...getting "qualified"...and in the process...indoctrinated into doing things the AS way. These people aren't sailors, they are race administrators...and they see themselves as AS acolytes. They don't stop to ask "what is the AS doing for my club?"...and some see the opportunity to become a PRO and have expenses covered as they get their passport stamped in the AS regatta books....along with the professional coaches and semi-pro PRO's, the international jurors and all the added expenses....It creates a dichotomy in the club when it comes to the perceived role of AS....That's what I mean by "us & them".

I can see both of your POV's. No real conflict there.

You're basically saying, I think, that the admin priorities & interests aren't aligned with the actual sailing peoples' priorities & interests. In your opinion.

Dunc is saying that if you don't vote for people who want to change stuff, you get what you get.

So - who has the bigger voting bloc in the clubs, the boat owners & crew who are club members or the admin people who are part of the AS support system?

And if the boat owners/active sailors aren't forcing change by power of their votes, assuming they actually have the numbers, nothing is ever going to change. Which is on them.

Of course if they can't actually muster the votes in the club(s) then the current system is serving the majority of members (who actually are prepared to vote) and you've then got 2 choices - go along while whining about it, or leave & set up a different system.

Shrug.

FKT

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17 hours ago, (p)Irate said:

I'm just about to join a QLD club. Do I bring my own chair or do they give me one when I sign up?

I was Chair of a committee and they threw me under a bus.

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2032. Most of the club yacht fleet crews and owners will be in nursing homes by then.

AS should be solving the problem of the missing 20-49 yr olds from sailing, instead of fighting with the old school sailors, fleecing parents of optis with grand ideas their kid will make it, and requiring multiple levels of certifications to teach someone what a flappy sail means.

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15 minutes ago, Xtasea said:

to teach someone what a flappy sail means

Flappy sails are unhappy sails... most of the time...

...I'm actually qualified to tell you that.  

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On 2/22/2022 at 10:03 PM, Couta said:

Dunc..your comment: "Any club/organisation is as corrupt as its members let it get, they need to actively participate in elections, or they will get the leaders they deserve, good and hard." suggests you've misinterpreted my point...or that I wasn't being clear.

I'm not suggesting my club's admin is corrupt...they are the hard working, honest, committed backbone of the club...running mid-week schools programs, girlsail, class regattas (state & national) and the week in, week out club sailing program. My point is that all of them, in the pursuit of delivering these events has become enthralled with the AS process...getting "qualified"...and in the process...indoctrinated into doing things the AS way. These people aren't sailors, they are race administrators...and they see themselves as AS acolytes. They don't stop to ask "what is the AS doing for my club?"...and some see the opportunity to become a PRO and have expenses covered as they get their passport stamped in the AS regatta books....along with the professional coaches and semi-pro PRO's, the international jurors and all the added expenses....It creates a dichotomy in the club when it comes to the perceived role of AS....That's what I mean by "us & them".

 

 

Couta,

 

in hindsight - I do apologise somewhat for flying off the handle at you. Being actively involved in club admin, it hit a nerve for me.

I do see your point. I know our club is constantly pushing back at the certification requirements that AS continues to pile on our volunteer trainers.  We have no paid staff, our team of helpers is mostly young teens, and AS's focus seems to be an every increasing certification hamster wheel and trying to sell us train-the-trainer programs ($$).

We cannot afford to constantly certify volunteers who may only hang around for a season or two. This is doubly-so if their certification (which we ponied up for) leads them to be head-hunted by some other club who is willing to pay them for their time.

I think FKT has it - things will only change if members move to clubs who aren't in the thrall of the AS system.

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7 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

trying to sell us train-the-trainer programs

AS do not have a clue about how to train instructors. There are some fine (non RYA) Instructors working in Clubs but is not thanks to anything AS taught them. They are fine instructors despite any AS involvement. Training volunteers is one thing they could do for free to put back in for clubs.

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44 minutes ago, random. said:

In about 2015 I saw a class association organise a non-AS RO training course.  Booked the Manly rooms and all.  As far as I can tell, of the dozen or so who completed it, only one of the trainers ever went on to do a few events a year.  Complete waste of time and money.

I asked one of them why they went to the course?  He said "I just wanted to know what RO's did and I had nothing else on that week.  The organisers made the mistake of not charging for it.

Wouldn't hurt everyone to do an RO's course. I think I learnt more about starting  'yanking flags' on the start boat than I did in years of racking up. Might create a bit more empathy and understanding towards the RO.

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Things are getting worse.

A nearby club has had added to their insurance policy that they are not covered unless a qualified instructor is overseeing any training activities they run.

So you don't need to be an AS school, but in the country where I am, maintiaing an AS qualification has become all but impossible if you don't have an AS school. Their recertification requirements are just too hard and expensive to meet otherwise.

So bit by bit all the doors are bing closed on clubs without AS certifiaction. And certainly their requirements for certification of volunteer assistant instructors is a major barrier against getting AS school certification.

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3 hours ago, Rambler said:

Things are getting worse.

A nearby club has had added to their insurance policy that they are not covered unless a qualified instructor is overseeing any training activities they run.

So you don't need to be an AS school, but in the country where I am, maintiaing an AS qualification has become all but impossible if you don't have an AS school. Their recertification requirements are just too hard and expensive to meet otherwise.

So bit by bit all the doors are bing closed on clubs without AS certifiaction. And certainly their requirements for certification of volunteer assistant instructors is a major barrier against getting AS school certification.

So what is the definition of a "Qualified" instructor...?? 

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20 hours ago, Couta said:

So what is the definition of a "Qualified" instructor...?? 

Ill defined.

AS aren't specified.

But who's going to take the risk of a $10m uninsured lawsuit

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21 hours ago, Couta said:

So what is the definition of a "Qualified" instructor...?? 

One would expect that it is someone who attended an instructor course run by their State Member body (or sub agent or what ever they are called now) or in the case of junior instructors, by a senior instructor through a club. I helped write and rolled out the national 'Keelboat' scheme for them about 12 years ago IIRC. We set it up with the RYA model. Candidates pass a 4 day instructor qualifying course then attend a two day update every 5 years. Any real stars have their cards marked to be invited to attend a senior instructor course after a few seasons experience. The system works by spotting tossers early and not letting them in.

But I have no idea how it works now. I think many junior instructors are simply anointed by the club coach without much formal training. I don't blame them. It isn't brain surgery, there is fuck-all money in it and many are happy to do it for free.

But AS will want a few shillings each time something with their logo on it is given out.

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