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10 minutes ago, MelbourneA31 said:

What is a disgrace is that you aren't smart enough to figure out that AMS is nothing more than a tricked up version of performance handicapping. Give it up buddy.

We all are well aware of your vendetta against AMS. Every measurement rule can have an issue with a design here or there - by and large the people running the rating system are trying to not let that happen, for obvious reasons.

You are a dickhead.

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14 minutes ago, MelbourneA31 said:

What is a disgrace is that you aren't smart enough to figure out that AMS is nothing more than a tricked up version of performance handicapping. Give it up buddy.

What?

an irc is not nowdays

ffs

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22 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I just re-read this and you're still conflating 2 distinct groups - recreational sailing and racing. I don't agree that their interests are even close to being the same, or at least their priorities are quite different.

I couldn't possibly care less about sailboat racing so no organisation that is going to have that as its primary focus is going to get my support, politically or financially.

More public foreshore facilities such as pontoons, jetties with pump-out facilities, public moorings etc etc would be where my focus lay.

So more power to you if you're going to white-ant the existing white shoe Royal Yacht club brigade, but I think your planned replacement is equally irrelevant to most of us so - shrug. I'll lay in a stock of beer & popcorn.

FKT

You are quite right. This association has no interest or desire to act as an advocate for toilet blocks or moorings for cruising sailors - it is purely a self interest group who want to race their yacht without all the yacht club politics and bullshit. The point I was marking about AS is that they don’t represent you as person who sails yet they purport to government that they do as the ‘peak body for sailing’.

If you want more pontoons to tie your tender up to- write to your local member.

Wait - down there your local Member may well be away at extinction rebellion march...

Or, you could write to AS and see if they want to help. 

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1 hour ago, MelbourneA31 said:

What is a disgrace is that you aren't smart enough to figure out that AMS is nothing more than a tricked up version of performance handicapping. Give it up buddy.

which is a great club level measurement concept. The Kiwi's PHRF or whatever it's called seems like great system. It seems to be a mix of a simple measurement system with a performance fudge factor. PHS as it is here penalises consistent performers too much whilst shit sailors get too much of a free ride

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1 minute ago, The Dark Knight said:

which is a great club level measurement concept. The Kiwi's PHRF or whatever it's called seems like great system. It seems to be a mix of a simple measurement system with a performance fudge factor. PHS as it is here penalises consistent performers too much whilst shit sailors get too much of a free ride

I need to pull you up here - if AMS had anything to do with performance, my rating would have been heading south - a lot.

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Just now, Dark Cloud said:

I need to pull you up here - if AMS had anything to do with performance, my rating would have been heading south - a lot.

I know that... We now have an AMS handicap and next week we are starting our first series with it. After calculating past results based on our handicap, including a few PHS win races, I can see we are going to get hammered. 

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44 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

IRC doesn't reward those who can't sail for shit unlike PHS.

neither does AMS....

If there was no PHS rewarding shit sailors, then club racing would be dead because unless you have a good boat and a bit of talent, you wont even have a light at the end of the tunnel as a goal. Owners will give up and crew with potential will not get a chance to sail.

PHS also helps good sailors who sail on boats that are hammered by various measurement ratings.

However, I admit PHS is too fluid, as you can keep sailing shit until your rating gets to your level, rather than you improving.

What I think is needed is a rating system that uses boat measurements, a fudge factor based on the real performance of that class of boat, plus a fudge factor based on your performance with limits of punishment and rewards. I think that's how the Kiwi system works.

 

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18 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

neither does AMS....

If there was no PHS rewarding shit sailors, then club racing would be dead because unless you have a good boat and a bit of talent, you wont even have a light at the end of the tunnel as a goal. Owners will give up and crew with potential will not get a chance to sail.

PHS also helps good sailors who sail on boats that are hammered by various measurement ratings.

However, I admit PHS is too fluid, as you can keep sailing shit until your rating gets to your level, rather than you improving.

What I think is needed is a rating system that uses boat measurements, a fudge factor based on the real performance of that class of boat, plus a fudge factor based on your performance with limits of punishment and rewards. I think that's how the Kiwi system works.

 

PHS has its place, and yes it rewards (consistent) mediocrity. And winning on PHS is like dating your sister - it's not that good.

PHS also has no relationship between fleets/clubs/states etc. So you cannot just race against another fleet based on your hard-earned h'cap. So the club handicapper of the day just makes one for you.  A more unified approach to PHS would be a good idea given where the current aging fleet seems to be heading. It wont happen.

And don't get me started on ocean racing where boats have never raced - anywhere before.

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1 minute ago, Dark Cloud said:

PHS has its place, and yes it rewards (consistent) mediocrity. And winning on PHS is like dating your sister - it's not that good.

I prefer to compare PHS to hackers golf. A win or place under PHS is like driving a par 3 green, scoring par or even a bogey on one hole, making you forget the hundred bad shots and make you come back for more. 

 

1 minute ago, Dark Cloud said:

PHS also has no relationship between fleets/clubs/states etc. So you cannot just race against another fleet based on your hard-earned h'cap. So the club handicapper of the day just makes one for you.  A more unified approach to PHS would be a good idea given where the current aging fleet seems to be heading. It wont happen.

And don't get me started on ocean racing where boats have never raced - anywhere before.

 

That seems to be the beauty of the Kiwi PHRF system. The boat base rating and measurements keep all fleets reasonably consistent.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, LB 15 said:

You are quite right. This association has no interest or desire to act as an advocate for toilet blocks or moorings for cruising sailors - it is purely a self interest group who want to race their yacht without all the yacht club politics and bullshit. The point I was marking about AS is that they don’t represent you as person who sails yet they purport to government that they do as the ‘peak body for sailing’.

Yeah, I agree with you - they're full of shit. They don't represent my interests in any way at all. As I've said before, they (and others) say 'sailing' when what they really mean is 'sailboat racing'. And only a subset of that, it would seem.

So more power to you and your friends, and I'm not being sarcastic here. Shaking up smug power structures is a good thing, especially ones who think they have the final say in everything. If you can figure a way to take their money & power off of them, good on you. Maybe you can work up to having a Sydney-Hobart as it once was (or chuck the rule book and have open slather including foilers, catamarans, trimarans, run what you brung....)

I have to admire the brilliance of the concept of the 'racing crew day membership' or whatever it's called. What a great way to handicap all those yacht owners who want to go racing with their mates crewing for them. That'll grow the sport and the club membership, yeah, you betcha......

As for moorings and the like, I own 4 myself and lend them out to friends, who also own moorings and let me use them. Unlike NSW, the bloody fascists, MAST doesn't care about things like that down here in the backward State. My friends, in transit north, picked up a mooring in Eden belonging to a friend of theirs who told them it would be OK, only to get a visit from the authorities saying that no, it wasn't, because the registered vessel owner hadn't asked for permission, in writing, in advance, for them to use it. For 3 bloody nights!

It's not only SA that needs a good kick in the goolies, it would appear.

FKT

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6 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

As for moorings and the like, I own 4 myself and lend them out to friends, who also own moorings and let me use them. Unlike NSW, the bloody fascists, MAST doesn't care about things like that down here in the backward State. My friends, in transit north, picked up a mooring in Eden belonging to a friend of theirs who told them it would be OK, only to get a visit from the authorities saying that no, it wasn't, because the registered vessel owner hadn't asked for permission, in writing, in advance, for them to use it. For 3 bloody nights!

It's not only SA that needs a good kick in the goolies, it would appear.

FKT

for fuck sake

Anyway

Tas aint that far behind the mother mainland, compared to Perth

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1 hour ago, duncan (the other one) said:

$$$ to get an endorsed cert - more disincentives

what's the go with the endorsed cert???

 

If my club has to pay money to a body for affiliation, I'd rather it was to go to the ORCV.

ORCV seems to listen to boat owners and act. For their winter series they dumped the WL racing and introduced passage races and long races around fixed buoys giving a variety of sailing angles. They have been leading the way in Aus in regards to two handed racing and they introduced the 4+AP division to give owners who are short on crew, but don't want to do 2h, a chance to compete. All decisions to encourage participation.

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12 hours ago, Dark Cloud said:

PHS has its place, and yes it rewards (consistent) mediocrity. And winning on PHS is like dating your sister - it's not that good.

PHS also has no relationship between fleets/clubs/states etc. So you cannot just race against another fleet based on your hard-earned h'cap. So the club handicapper of the day just makes one for you.  A more unified approach to PHS would be a good idea given where the current aging fleet seems to be heading. It wont happen.

And don't get me started on ocean racing where boats have never raced - anywhere before.

A national PHS system is definitely one way of growing fleets. True it isn’t perfect - but neither is IRC. But it caters to the vast majority of club racers who don’t really care if they win on handicap - they are more interested in beating their close rivals on the water. At Airlie beach race week this year in div 2 cruising we had about 15 closely matched 40 footers swapin tacks all week. The on water racing was great fun and I don’t think we looked at the handicap results once during the regatta. It just didnt mater - we were there to beat the other boats over the line and have some fun. What PHS does is encourage more boats on the start line. The closest the sport ever got to a system that rated different boats well was IOR but it encouragesd boats to sail slower not faster and was full of rule cheaters. But the big fleets were fun. There is a good reason why the northern race weeks have the biggest fleets. Even more amazing when you think that most boats entering live a 1000 miles away. Meanwhile the serious IRC championships get a handful of boats. It is time to kick the Non Corinthian boats out of the mainstream events. They can fuck off and play with themselves.

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13 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

“It is time to kick the Non Corinthian boats out of the mainstream events. They can fuck off and play with themselves.”

 

Sad, but the future

I think it should be the other way. If the pros want to race in the big regattas, they should race with everyone else rather than having elite races like they have at HIRW 

So if Ichi Ban wants to race at HIRW, they should start with other div 1 yachts, including the backpacker Maxi racers like Apollo, Siska, Condor etc...

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1 minute ago, The Dark Knight said:

I think it should be the other way. If the pros want to race in the big regattas, they should race with everyone else rather than having elite races like they have at HIRW 

So if Ichi Ban wants to race at HIRW, they should start with other div 1 yachts, including the backpacker Maxi racers like Apollo, Siska, Condor etc...

What an idiotic idea.  Have you ever been to the northern regattas to eyeball the fleets and the racing areas.  Appolo, Siska and Condor dont race in these regattas, however there were another 230- boats racing this year at HIRW, hardly elite races on their own..

 

Hoppy you jump from one idea to another.   earlier in this thread you suggested AS should support AMS as its a rating system, then you wanted a moving PHS system.  FFS just go sailing and enjoying it while you can.

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2 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Hoppy you jump from one idea to another.   earlier in this thread you suggested AS should support AMS as its a rating system, then you wanted a moving PHS system.  FFS just go sailing and enjoying it while you can.

I will be sailing next Wednesday as I have almost every Wednesday this year. As I don't own a boat any more, I have to wait for the boat owner (or perhaps when his wife) to decide when we sail...

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35 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

I think it should be the other way. If the pros want to race in the big regattas, they should race with everyone else rather than having elite races like they have at HIRW 

So if Ichi Ban wants to race at HIRW, they should start with other div 1 yachts, including the backpacker Maxi racers like Apollo, Siska, Condor etc...

Fuck me, each week you manage to 1 up yourself with something dumber than the previous week.

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2 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

what's the go with the endorsed cert???

 

If my club has to pay money to a body for affiliation, I'd rather it was to go to the ORCV.

ORCV seems to listen to boat owners and act. For their winter series they dumped the WL racing and introduced passage races and long races around fixed buoys giving a variety of sailing angles. They have been leading the way in Aus in regards to two handed racing and they introduced the 4+AP division to give owners who are short on crew, but don't want to do 2h, a chance to compete. All decisions to encourage participation.

https://ircrating.org/irc-certificate/faqs/

IRC was designed to be a 'measurement from the design' rule, where numbers could be gained from designer, or previous measurement numbers (IOR, IMS, etc).

IRC in Aus, you need an endorsed certificate.  So you need to get your boat measured, including weighed, and pay a fee.. I'm not sure how this came about, I thought it was an AS dictate, but https://www.sailingresources.org.au/ratingshome_2019/irc_2019/  says "the practice of using Endorsed certificates is considered the norm in Australia."

 

From the IRC FAQ:

Quote:

An ‘endorsed’ IRC certificate is one for which the data on the certificate has been audited and if necessary verified by measurement or other methods. There is a set of common standards for the IRC Rating Authority and Rule Authorities to apply when endorsing a boat’s IRC certificate. See also “Accepted sources of data”.

Generally, IRC is a self-measurement system and this is acceptable for a Standard certificate. There is no general requirement for an owner to have his boat officially measured or weighed unless either he chooses to do so, or his Rule Authority and/or an Organising Authority for a race requires official measurement, generally resulting in an endorsed IRC certificate.

To apply for an Endorsed certificate contact your local Rule Authority. A payment may be involved.

Check measurement may be required on change of ownership or at intervals after original measurement.

 

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mmmm.. 2008 IRC Congress

The competitiveness of offshore yacht racing in Australia certainly puts the system under pressure
resulting in some key policies and initiatives from Yachting Australia. One such policy is that yachts
shall be measured and certificates Endorsed
. This minimises discrepancies on ratings and ensures
that the volatile and combative nature of yacht racing stays as fair and equitable as possible.
Measurers themselves are vetted before appointment, applications and certificates are all diligently
checked by staff dedicated to the service.

So why is AS so coy about this now?  "considered the norm" because we forced it upon you.

 

2019 congress, : Australia report

.. in Australia an IRC certificate needs to be endorsed.

How's that working out for you?

IRC numbers:
Year
2016   - 413
2017  - 429
2018  - 437
2018  - 288
2019  - 311
 

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Isn't it amazing how peak bodies that require the sport to flourish keep putting barriers in the way of the clubs and sailors from growing the grass roots, all the while spending increaasing amounts on the top end of the sport and the gravy train for OOTOF's to attend seminars and conferences to ask the question "why isn't sailing growing"?

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35 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

mmmm.. 2008 IRC Congress

The competitiveness of offshore yacht racing in Australia certainly puts the system under pressure
resulting in some key policies and initiatives from Yachting Australia. One such policy is that yachts
shall be measured and certificates Endorsed
. This minimises discrepancies on ratings and ensures
that the volatile and combative nature of yacht racing stays as fair and equitable as possible.
Measurers themselves are vetted before appointment, applications and certificates are all diligently
checked by staff dedicated to the service.

So why is AS so coy about this now?  "considered the norm" because we forced it upon you.

 

2019 congress, : Australia report

.. in Australia an IRC certificate needs to be endorsed.

How's that working out for you?

IRC numbers:
Year
2016   - 413
2017  - 429
2018  - 437
2018  - 288
2019  - 311
 

When you have a look at the numbers that are about the same until 2018 and this year, what has changed for the numbers to decline so much ? 

 

I think that numbers will be up this year because of the 75th Hobart. It will be interesting to see what happens next year. 

 

No handicaping system is perfect we all know that.  The problem that we have is just when a system starts to work we change the goal posts and end up back to square one.  AS needs to look at AMS and should support this system as the numbers tell you that it’s working better than IRC just by looking at the numbers. The problem is AS don’t have their finger in the pie and aren’t makeing money out of it so they are brushing it aside. The thing is they forget that they are making money from every sailor who is a club racer racing AMS 

 

The biggest problem AS has is they have their head stuck in the sand or up the ass of the chosen few and they are killing the sport. They need to support the grassroots of the sport and classes, forget about the Olympic’s and the big end of town and concentrate on growing the sport and increase the numbers Sailing. In the end the cream will work it’s way to the top anyway and AS will have a bigger pot of money to support them. It’s time AS gave back to the grassroots more.

 

Pulpit

 

 

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3 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

https://ircrating.org/irc-certificate/faqs/

IRC was designed to be a 'measurement from the design' rule, where numbers could be gained from designer, or previous measurement numbers (IOR, IMS, etc).

IRC in Aus, you need an endorsed certificate.  So you need to get your boat measured, including weighed, and pay a fee.. I'm not sure how this came about, I thought it was an AS dictate, but https://www.sailingresources.org.au/ratingshome_2019/irc_2019/  says "the practice of using Endorsed certificates is considered the norm in Australia."

 

So if you have a production boat which has a sister that is already IRC rated, or your boat has a ORCi etc.. FFS.... AS is looking more and more stupid...

 

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3 minutes ago, pulpit said:

The biggest problem AS has is they have their head stuck in the sand or up the ass of the chosen few and they are killing the sport. They need to support the grassroots of the sport and classes, forget about the Olympic’s and the big end of town and concentrate on growing the sport and increase the numbers Sailing. In the end the cream will work it’s way to the top anyway and AS will have a bigger pot of money to support them. It’s time AS gave back to the grassroots more.

I think it would be interesting to see the numbers for participation in yacht racing for 30 or so years ago compared to now. It seems like AS is making it harder for people to want to get involved and now there are more alternatives, so I'd expect the numbers to be depressing reading.

 

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1 hour ago, The Dark Knight said:

I think it would be interesting to see the numbers for participation in yacht racing for 30 or so years ago compared to now. It seems like AS is making it harder for people to want to get involved and now there are more alternatives, so I'd expect the numbers to be depressing reading.

 

I am not sure if you are looking at numbers of boats racing or the number of bums on seats racing.  Boats have become bigger and need more crew.  Years ago a t30 foot boat was considered a big boat and was crewed by about 4 people.  Now an average boat is 40 foot with 8 to 10 people.  It looks like numbers are down dramatically but I think you would find the number of people involved in yacht racing is only down slightly and in line with other team sports.

 

The only reason the VICs love AMS is because its cheap, not because its good.

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1 minute ago, trt131 said:

The only reason the VICs love AMS is because its cheap, not because its good.

Not just the VICs - try TAS, SA as well - in fact it is bigger in oz than IRC. Not because it's cheap, but that probably helps put bums on seats. There is no reason both rating systems cannot happily co-exist. And if you don't like one, have the other - or both.

AS tried to own AMS some years ago, and were politely told to go away. They have been white anting it ever since.

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23 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I just re-read this and you're still conflating 2 distinct groups - recreational sailing and racing. I don't agree that their interests are even close to being the same, or at least their priorities are quite different.

Fark don't forget over time people do move between these two groupings, cruising and racing, some even do both with suitable boats/fleets. They don't necessarily stay rusted to one.

The "culture" of the Club at the "top", plays its part on what their selection is. In some cases it sends them elsewhere or even out of the sport.

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29 minutes ago, trt131 said:

I am not sure if you are looking at numbers of boats racing or the number of bums on seats racing.  Boats have become bigger and need more crew.  Years ago a t30 foot boat was considered a big boat and was crewed by about 4 people.  Now an average boat is 40 foot with 8 to 10 people.  It looks like numbers are down dramatically but I think you would find the number of people involved in yacht racing is only down slightly and in line with other team sports.

 

The only reason the VICs love AMS is because its cheap, not because its good.

Cheap is good when you have many low budget boats and very few swing moorings. The bulk of the fleet at my club consists of boats 30+ years old and many owners want a measurement based rating without the stupid costs of IRC (is it around $700 per year?)

the high IRC cost for no benefit reinforces the “yacht racing is for the rich” perception. 


 

 

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4 hours ago, Dark Cloud said:

Not just the VICs - try TAS, SA as well - in fact it is bigger in oz than IRC. Not because it's cheap, but that probably helps put bums on seats. There is no reason both rating systems cannot happily co-exist. And if you don't like one, have the other - or both.

AS tried to own AMS some years ago, and were politely told to go away. They have been white anting it ever since.

AMS has been white anting itself. There has never been an acceptable explanation to the issues around accuracy of data on their certificates (i've had three with errors) or why ratings get changed but similar boats don't change. You know this - stop pretending that it is a good system.

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19 minutes ago, MelbourneA31 said:

AMS has been white anting itself. There has never been an acceptable explanation to the issues around accuracy of data on their certificates (i've had three with errors) or why ratings get changed but similar boats don't change. You know this - stop pretending that it is a good system.

The lack of explanations are an issue I am sure. It can create pissed off owners. Sometimes ratings change because an error was detected in the inputs. We are also dealing with a large cross-section of measurers - they are not always consistent or accurate, but that is what we have - and they all measure for both IRC and AMS. It is not a perfect world.

Compare that to self-measured non-endorsed IRC ratings and YMMV.

You should've kept the older boat ;)

 

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7 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

mmmm.. 2008 IRC Congress

The competitiveness of offshore yacht racing in Australia certainly puts the system under pressure
resulting in some key policies and initiatives from Yachting Australia. One such policy is that yachts
shall be measured and certificates Endorsed
. This minimises discrepancies on ratings and ensures
that the volatile and combative nature of yacht racing stays as fair and equitable as possible.
Measurers themselves are vetted before appointment, applications and certificates are all diligently
checked by staff dedicated to the service.

So why is AS so coy about this now?  "considered the norm" because we forced it upon you.

 

2019 congress, : Australia report

.. in Australia an IRC certificate needs to be endorsed.

How's that working out for you?

IRC numbers:
Year
2016   - 413
2017  - 429
2018  - 437
2018  - 288
2019  - 311
 

And to think when IRC was state based administration QLD alone got to over 100 certificates

 

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Hmmmm it’s seems that there are  lots of issues that need dealing with.....

From a former AS coach

 

“Totally ... It has been a privilege to work with and experience my coaching live . Maybe the only missing from this is the total lack of support or respect from the national federations and their inability to treat their coaches with any respect or support . They don’t care about people nor mange their grow and development . If I had my time again I would never give my life commitment as they discard you . I will never forget the email i got when i resigned . Saying. Thanks for ur letter  “what is you last day”  
My advice to any Sailing coach who is considering working for our national body . 
Don’t rely on them and don’t expect they will look after you .Work for clubs and that sort of thing .“

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13 hours ago, trt131 said:

I am not sure if you are looking at numbers of boats racing or the number of bums on seats racing.  Boats have become bigger and need more crew.  Years ago a t30 foot boat was considered a big boat and was crewed by about 4 people.  Now an average boat is 40 foot with 8 to 10 people.  It looks like numbers are down dramatically but I think you would find the number of people involved in yacht racing is only down slightly and in line with other team sports.

 

The only reason the VICs love AMS is because its cheap, not because its good.

Clearly you weren’t around 40 years ago when offshore racing peaked. 

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17 hours ago, trt131 said:

I am not sure if you are looking at numbers of boats racing or the number of bums on seats racing.  Boats have become bigger and need more crew.  Years ago a t30 foot boat was considered a big boat and was crewed by about 4 people.  Now an average boat is 40 foot with 8 to 10 people.  It looks like numbers are down dramatically but I think you would find the number of people involved in yacht racing is only down slightly and in line with other team sports.

Watch this typical race week regatta from 1982. Note all the 30 footers with 4 crew. Now off to school with you young fella. 

 

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17 hours ago, trt131 said:

I am not sure if you are looking at numbers of boats racing or the number of bums on seats racing.  Boats have become bigger and need more crew.  Years ago a t30 foot boat was considered a big boat and was crewed by about 4 people.  Now an average boat is 40 foot with 8 to 10 people.  It looks like numbers are down dramatically but I think you would find the number of people involved in yacht racing is only down slightly and in line with other team sports.

boats have gotten bigger but you probably have to go back well before the IOR era to see 30 footers as big boats. Back in the 80's 34ft was a largish boat and 40ft was considered. big.

 

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The ASs very own census makes the situation look worse...

Victoria by far dominates the participation numbers with nearly 25% more people participating in club racing, 29% more in regattas than compared to NSW. NSW only beats SA by 46%.

The only number which makes NSW look good is the school competitions/Programs, including sports/aquatic centres. That almost sound like they are including swimmers, because the massive numbers of participants does not translate to sailors. Basically AS are fudging the figures to make their home base look good and hide the fact that the harbour city which is full of yachts, is a complete failure for AS.  

Heads should roll at AS and the HQ and main training centres for sailing should be relocated to the home of sailing in Australia in the city by the bay!!!!

 

Capture2.thumb.jpg.af333ce7967601d045bef841d90c190a.jpg

 

 

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I'm not sure why people continue with the delusion that AS is there for the grass roots.

Over 75% of funding is taxpayer largess. More than 70% of that figure goes to employees.

From the 2017 report:

income $15M.  

  • membership $2.4M
  • Service fees (regattas, certification, courses) $4.3M
  • Various taxpayer grants (AOC, AIS, ASC, etc) $11.4M

Expenses:

  • employee payments $8M
  • supplier expenses $5M

 

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I have no barrow to push in this discussion, but here is a comparison of rating handicaps for our local fleet of boats around the 36' length. The boats shown with an "*" are Mumm 36's.

There's all sorts of statistical comments that can be made about this graph but it is interesting to see a gradual progression of AMS versus the variances with IRC and PHS.

Obviously depending on the handicap system there are always going to be winners and losers.....

 

386700516_RatingComparison.JPG.5d6af0dfc45a4a4e315e4864156806c1.JPG

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22 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

The competitiveness of offshore yacht racing in Australia certainly puts the system under pressure
resulting in some key policies and initiatives from Yachting Australia. One such policy is that yachts
shall be measured and certificates endorsed.... Measurers themselves are vetted before appointment, applications and certificates are all diligently checked by staff dedicated to the service.

Just another way for AS to employ more staff and justify its own pathetic existence. Typical featherbedding.

 

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1 hour ago, 42 South said:

I have no barrow to push in this discussion, but here is a comparison of rating handicaps for our local fleet of boats around the 36' length. The boats shown with an "*" are Mumm 36's.

There's all sorts of statistical comments that can be made about this graph but it is interesting to see a gradual progression of AMS versus the variances with IRC and PHS.

Obviously depending on the handicap system there are always going to be winners and losers.....

 

386700516_RatingComparison.JPG.5d6af0dfc45a4a4e315e4864156806c1.JPG

The rest....

42 South Dufour 36

Wings 3 NS38

Jiyuu  J88

Frontline Elan S4

Illusion Hanse 400E

Ultimate Challenge Dubious 40

Whistler MBD 36

As good as it gets  First 40.7

Midnight Rambler Sydney 36

 

Interesting comparison 

It looks to me that Wings 3 might be losing out in AMS

I suspect that "As good as it gets" is also an AMS loser.

Hard to compare the Mumm's as I'm not sure which are standard and which have been modded. The heavily modded M36 Corum has an IRC rating of 1.085 which looks to be about the same as those listed.

 

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4 hours ago, 42 South said:

I have no barrow to push in this discussion, but here is a comparison of rating handicaps for our local fleet of boats around the 36' length. The boats shown with an "*" are Mumm 36's.

There's all sorts of statistical comments that can be made about this graph but it is interesting to see a gradual progression of AMS versus the variances with IRC and PHS.

Obviously depending on the handicap system there are always going to be winners and losers.....

 

386700516_RatingComparison.JPG.5d6af0dfc45a4a4e315e4864156806c1.JPG

I’m a fan of AMS but I’m not sure what this graph is showing. You’ve just got the boats listed in order from lowest to highest AMS rating. If you did the same,  listing the boats in IRC order, it would show IRC in a nice even pattern and AMS looking like it has crazy ratings.

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25 minutes ago, Skirmish said:

I’m a fan of AMS but I’m not sure what this graph is showing. You’ve just got the boats listed in order from lowest to highest AMS rating. If you did the same,  listing the boats in IRC order, it would show IRC in a nice even pattern and AMS looking like it has crazy ratings.

Agree - the graph is quite meaningless

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7 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

The ASs very own census makes the situation look worse...

Victoria by far dominates the participation numbers with nearly 25% more people participating in club racing, 29% more in regattas than compared to NSW. NSW only beats SA by 46%.

The only number which makes NSW look good is the school competitions/Programs, including sports/aquatic centres. That almost sound like they are including swimmers, because the massive numbers of participants does not translate to sailors. Basically AS are fudging the figures to make their home base look good and hide the fact that the harbour city which is full of yachts, is a complete failure for AS.  

Heads should roll at AS and the HQ and main training centres for sailing should be relocated to the home of sailing in Australia in the city by the bay!!!!

 

Capture2.thumb.jpg.af333ce7967601d045bef841d90c190a.jpg

 

 

Surely there is massive double counting in those figures, for example, the first three columns.

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9 hours ago, Dark Cloud said:

No. Only Australia has AS - their jurisdiction stops about 150 miles offshore, give or take

Not quite what I meant but a good answer, I was really asking do our friends across the ditch in NZ have the same issues with YNZ or the Canuks with CYA, Mexicans with US Sailing etc?

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Multihulls seem to have the best of both worlds.  AS has a Nationals for them (not very well attended) and then they organise their own (last one at Airlie Beach Race Week). Not sure whether that has any ratification or support from AS (but I doubt it given AS has its own version).

Maybe it is time for others to follow.

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Handicapping the participants makes sense in Horse racing & Golf, everybody plays same course. 
handicapping boats and not participants makes sense, it highlights “skill” vs rewarding poor performance.  
 

inevitably some of the “skill” involves ability to write frequent checks as large or larger than competitors to keep boat, rig, sails competitive. Quite a bit of it comes for “free” in terms of knowledge, attention and preparation.  

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23 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

The ASs very own census makes the situation look worse...

Victoria by far dominates the participation numbers with nearly 25% more people participating in club racing, 29% more in regattas than compared to NSW. NSW only beats SA by 46%.

The only number which makes NSW look good is the school competitions/Programs, including sports/aquatic centres. That almost sound like they are including swimmers, because the massive numbers of participants does not translate to sailors. Basically AS are fudging the figures to make their home base look good and hide the fact that the harbour city which is full of yachts, is a complete failure for AS.  

Heads should roll at AS and the HQ and main training centres for sailing should be relocated to the home of sailing in Australia in the city by the bay!!!!

 

Capture2.thumb.jpg.af333ce7967601d045bef841d90c190a.jpg

 

 

Can anyone here confirm they were a participant in this ‘census’? Or have ever met anyone who was? Did they get these figures from the clubs perhaps? But jolly well done AS! You grew the sport by 20% in one year. 

The only other sport that grew this much is ‘poo jogging’. It is certainly on the rise.

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7 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Can anyone here confirm they were a participant in this ‘census’? Or have ever met anyone who was? Did they get these figures from the clubs perhaps? But jolly well done AS! You grew the sport by 20% in one year. 

The only other sport that grew this much is ‘poo jogging’. It is certainly on the rise.

I believe that AS use the same firm as the Queensland Labor Government engaged to run the survey on renaming Lady Cilento Children's Hospital to Queensland Children's Hospital.

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29 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Can anyone here confirm they were a participant in this ‘census’? Or have ever met anyone who was? Did they get these figures from the clubs perhaps? But jolly well done AS! You grew the sport by 20% in one year. 

Negative 

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2 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Handicapping the participants makes sense in Horse racing & Golf, everybody plays same course. 
handicapping boats and not participants makes sense, it highlights “skill” vs rewarding poor performance.  

I disagree about Golf in terms of your logic...

If you want to highlight "skill" then it has to be playing off scratch. Playing stableford rewards hack players having a good day. It's just like PHS which is purely based on past performances.

2 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

inevitably some of the “skill” involves ability to write frequent checks as large or larger than competitors to keep boat, rig, sails competitive. Quite a bit of it comes for “free” in terms of knowledge, attention and preparation.  

don't forget paying for a pro crew...

In terms of the Australia Yachting championships, it is baffling that they would choose to include PHS for obvious reasons... If they want to boost participant numbers in the 3 championships held in the southern states, there is a more sensible option, but AS doesn't want to know about it.

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On 10/18/2019 at 2:33 PM, LB 15 said:

He He He.

Members of a certain club will recall the controversy about a Mumm 30 called 'MILF racing' after a complaint from a volunteer.

He was sent a very unpleasant letter threatening to remove his boat if he didn't change its name. 

The letter was signed by a Committee member who had previously owned boats called 'Stand back and watch the Goo Fly', 'Seauente', and '*****Hookers'. 

You can not make this shit up.

and "Loose Nuts", "Wunhunglow", etc etc

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1 hour ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

 

So the light-weight Sharpie's have all been banned too???

Good lord no. I personally applaud the practise of clever boat names like that. Should be more of it.

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1 hour ago, Turkey Slapper said:

Just ventured onto the front page, another sand people post! But now I'm confused, who are the desert dwellers and Hill people, and how can we tell them apart?

No more walking up the hill....

20 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

Ahh.. the sand people and a chicken-duck-women thing waiting in the  bushes.

 

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On 10/19/2019 at 7:21 PM, The Dark Knight said:

which is a great club level measurement concept. The Kiwi's PHRF or whatever it's called seems like great system. It seems to be a mix of a simple measurement system with a performance fudge factor. PHS as it is here penalises consistent performers too much whilst shit sailors get too much of a free ride

AMS and SMS are not a "great club level measurement concept", ratings are arbitrarily modified which influences results. If you want to compete at "club" level, go research ORC Club and come back to me with a considered opinion.

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On 10/19/2019 at 7:23 PM, The Dark Knight said:

please don't lumber normal dickheads in the same group as A31. It's an insult to dickheads.

You are shit canning my opinion on AMS being a Mickey Mouse rating system. So when was the last boat built specifically to race under the AMS rating rule? Feel free to ask Peter Chalkley to chime in on this to support your opinion of my mental capacity. in other words, fuck off you idiot.

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On 10/19/2019 at 7:46 PM, The Dark Knight said:

neither does AMS....

If there was no PHS rewarding shit sailors, then club racing would be dead because unless you have a good boat and a bit of talent, you wont even have a light at the end of the tunnel as a goal. Owners will give up and crew with potential will not get a chance to sail.

PHS also helps good sailors who sail on boats that are hammered by various measurement ratings.

However, I admit PHS is too fluid, as you can keep sailing shit until your rating gets to your level, rather than you improving.

What I think is needed is a rating system that uses boat measurements, a fudge factor based on the real performance of that class of boat, plus a fudge factor based on your performance with limits of punishment and rewards. I think that's how the Kiwi system works.

 

You forgot the AMS fudge factor for the whingers in the bar of SYC plus the penalty for being on the register of RYCV.

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On 10/20/2019 at 9:15 PM, Dark Cloud said:

The lack of explanations are an issue I am sure. It can create pissed off owners. Sometimes ratings change because an error was detected in the inputs. We are also dealing with a large cross-section of measurers - they are not always consistent or accurate, but that is what we have - and they all measure for both IRC and AMS. It is not a perfect world.

Compare that to self-measured non-endorsed IRC ratings and YMMV.

You should've kept the older boat ;)

 

The Borresen BB10 was arbitrarily "x factored" into oblivion by the three stooges so I was happy to sell it. And don't try to tell me that it wasn't, because I have the certificates to prove that the rating was changed by forty points over the life cycle of that boat.

What is more of an issue to me are the non spinnaker ratings. The AMS guys are stupid enough to publish them - what a complete joke! They must think that their customers don't watch these things.

I stopped sailing the Shaw 650 because the SMS rule has badly let down the sports boat fleet to the extent that nobody races them anymore. The boat's got a new owner who has won two regattas and finished second in the three regattas that he has entered.

In all seriousness, I would rather not go racing than race under a rule administered by those three clowns.

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