Jump to content

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 13.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

":A 2h18 heure française, le team PRB a été informé du sauvetage de Kevin Escoffier par Jean Le Cam. " Kevin has been rescued.  

Give it a rest chaps. HB was another attempt at evolution, and they should be applauded for spending a fuck ton of money to do so. If you want to try and be innovative you run the risk of breakages al

VG sailors at sea in the rough A translation: JLC: Damien can you receive me ? DS: Yes Jean I can (garbled)... I don't think you're receiving me that well but I receive you very well. JL

Posted Images

13 minutes ago, dolphinmaster said:

what about the naviguessers of the recent past.  I've been more than surprised when they would emerge because they invested hours and hours sitting down below pouring over the charts and parallel rulers and rdf and etc.  heard their voices rumbling on and off and spouting eureka out the companionway but doesn't seem much diff.  The new breed of RTW etc solo sailor still has to pay the price and invest the time.

No doubt.  These skippers are super talented and work their asses off.  Probably harder than in the past just given the pace and extra attention needed to foil these things.  Not to mention how fast shit can go south at the speeds they are traveling.  I can't imagine the sleep deprivation in the fleet.  Maybe the better question or ponderance is, "When will this technology surpass human capabilities?"  I'd have to say it's getting close.  I can't get my head around what it's like to try and just get a cat nap on these things much less any significant rest unless you pull in the foil and reduce sail to keep the speed at a "manageable" 12 knots or so.  However, who is going to do that when they are in a system that they can ride for days and gain massive separation on the fleet?  I'd say these things are a wonder in human endurance more than anything else.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

These incredibly talented skippers are sailing around the planet glued to a computer screen.  Anyone else think this is a little. well, wrong?  True, we have some amazing technological developments in classes like this and the Americas Cup, the big tri's.  But when it's healthier to stare at a computer screen than feel the wind on your face and experience the great outdoors with sunrises, sunsets, 0 light pollution with amazing stars not to mention the opportunity to check out some killer wild life it just makes me think we're loosing sight of something in the process..... 

I think that's an exaggeration.  We see them at their screens because there are limited places to sit aboard and it tends to be at their nav station.   Yes, they'll spent a few hours per day checking weather and routing but there will be exception alerts when set parameters are hit.   In some ways, this is just 'if I ease that line and check my boat speed' on a far bigger/faster scale.  I'm sure they all take some time in the day to wonder at the world around them, even if it's only the first-timers who post pictures/videos of those moments.  Unless, of course, all hell is breaking loose at which point, they might end up a bit more focused on the task at hand.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, noaano said:

 

It will be interesting to see when and how the rules will change towards actual full foiling.

Allow active control of foiling/flying surfaces and lifting rudder, and we are in new territory again.

Allowing active controls will simply create another arms race in energy systems to support the added electrical loads. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Haji said:

Allowing active controls will simply create another arms race in energy systems to support the added electrical loads. 

Not to mention there's no fail safe with active controls - in the current scheme, yes a lot of design/project minded people want to say go go go but the moment you open the door for system adjusted foiling via rudders, you need to deal with what the boat will do if 1) sensor failure, 2) elevator/rudder damage. Currently the foiling may seem awkward to some - but they're still breaking records, and the foils have to be designed with the hull and keel in mind & there's an element of finding the virtuous cycle self-regulating equilibrium between what the sails can deliver, what the hull provides and what the keel/foils provide. 

Active control just completely throws that away - and in that case, why have a keel? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Second Row said:

On Hugo Boss it looks like the "Coachroof" is made up of solar panels...I thought the hydro-generators made more than enough power?

Anyone know why?

Hydrogenerators cause drag. The more you passively generate the better.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Second Row said:

On Hugo Boss it looks like the "Coachroof" is made up of solar panels...I thought the hydro-generators made more than enough power?

Anyone know why?

Why not? It provides reliable energy - it isn't affected by speed, less moving parts & not prone to damage at the speeds they're going? 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Second Row said:

On Hugo Boss it looks like the "Coachroof" is made up of solar panels...I thought the hydro-generators made more than enough power?

Anyone know why?

Power management is an ongoing battle between your resources and redundancies. If you can more sources of power you are more able to adapt to failure, and on these boats power is always in demand to run the necessities like autopilot, instruments, load monitoring, keel canting, even before you get to "luxuries" like the computer for routing and navigation, satellite comms, media (which they have to do under the rules) etc. The hydro generators cause drag and can and do get damaged (e.g. Pip broke a blade on one of hers, then had the other's stop ripped off, so had to use the engine to charge batteries).

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Go the Cam !!!!!:)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Second Row said:

I thought they would not want the weight of the panels if they could avoid them...and I doubt they are as effective as other structural materials. 

As Alex likes to quote: "To finish first, first you must finish." flexible solar panels don't weigh much, are reliable, and could mean the difference between having power for your pilot and not.

1 minute ago, Second Row said:

Have any other of the other boats included this feature?

Quite a lot of them have solar panels on the boats. Just from the top of my head, Pip Hare has 3 big ones stuck behind her cockpit, Boris Herman has panels around the place on the roof.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 Herrmann's charging dashboard shows he gets K-more power from hydro:

[edit: hmm. link shows other numbers. Oh, well]

Quote

Starboard Hydrogenerator 2.82 kA; 

Port Hydrogenerator 1.83 kA

Solar Power 1.79 A

Alex's builder grumbled about the late addition of the solar panels to HB

Quote

He has also opted for solar power in addition to the traditional diesel engine, an eco-friendly approach that saves fuel, but which forced Carrington to find a last-minute, waterproof solution to attach around 100 solar panels to the boat’s carbon structure. “Suddenly we had all these penetrations to make through a composite structure, which is inherently delicate. It’s not as if you can just get a drill bit and pierce through,” says Carrington, diplomatically. “Solar saves carrying all that diesel and, environmentally, it’s the right thing to do, so we were all for it. But at the end of a build when you are under pressure, you don’t really need extra jobs.”

Trade-offs and redundancy.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't recall seeing the center line mainsheet bridle in previous editions. On multiple boats, when they are running, you can see a mainsheet on a bridle, with the regular mainsheet on the traveller slack. Is this a newer development to save wear and tear on the traveler, or did I just miss it last time?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

These incredibly talented skippers are sailing around the planet glued to a computer screen.  Anyone else think this is a little. well, wrong?  True, we have some amazing technological developments in classes like this and the Americas Cup, the big tri's.  But when it's healthier to stare at a computer screen than feel the wind on your face and experience the great outdoors with sunrises, sunsets, 0 light pollution with amazing stars not to mention the opportunity to check out some killer wild life it just makes me think we're loosing sight of something in the process..... 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you have never done along distance short-handed race.

These things are incredibly tough and punishing. For the stress, lack of sleep, terror. For those times where you do have to go on deck and do a repair in the middle of nowhere where rescue is far from certain if you get hurt, in a storm. For the lack of respite with no chance to shut-off or ask advice.

There are times to enjoy the sunsets, lack of light pollution etc - indeed some skippers have already commented on that. But there isn't much time for such luxuries

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, spencerogden said:

I don't recall seeing the center line mainsheet bridle in previous editions. On multiple boats, when they are running, you can see a mainsheet on a bridle, with the regular mainsheet on the traveller slack. Is this a newer development to save wear and tear on the traveler, or did I just miss it last time?

We discussed this a few pages ago - we think what looks like the main on the traveller is actually the vang (as the gooseneck is v close to the deck so no space for a regular vang).

Is the point that the app wind is always so far forward that you don't need the full 'trav down' mode?

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/14/2020 at 2:55 PM, tDot said:

Ha, so did we.  Only problem is it meant a few more years of work before we go.

Instead, I went high tech carbon to decrease the "time to go." A few carbon sails replace many sails built with other technologies, and they last longer. While a given sail costs double, the number of sails required is a quarter, for a huge price savings, to say nothing of space and weight savings.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, stief said:

Alex on deck getting firehosed. Not

 


It feels like the debate in aviation when open air cockpits were being replaced by enclosed cockpits as biplanes transitioned to monoplanes and buffeting because too unbearable - and you have an old timer ace who got 20 victories in WWI saying hon hon hon I prefer open canopy - it lets me have better situational awareness and air flowing thru my hair.
 



Also AT's calorie usage during the first week - he's already the lightest we've ever seen him, he's gonna come out of this ready to be a runway model for Hugo Boss.

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Miffy said:


It feels like the debate in aviation when open air cockpits were being replaced by enclosed cockpits as biplanes transitioned to monoplanes and buffeting because too unbearable - and you have an old timer ace who got 20 victories in WWI saying hon hon hon I prefer open canopy - it lets me have better situational awareness and air flowing thru my hair.

But doesn't really work in an F-35...

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Miffy said:

It feels like the debate in aviation when open air cockpits were being replaced by enclosed cockpits as biplanes transitioned to monoplanes and buffeting because too unbearable 

Good analogy. I'm looking forward to the cockpit envy comments when in the SO.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Miffy said:


It feels like the debate in aviation when open air cockpits were being replaced by enclosed cockpits as biplanes transitioned to monoplanes and buffeting because too unbearable - and you have an old timer ace who got 20 victories in WWI saying hon hon hon I prefer open canopy - it lets me have better situational awareness and air flowing thru my hair.

Well back in my day we sailed the high seas in optis or could it have been the local lake, you know my memory gets fuzzy, so these lads should really be able to do it in open boats. They even get payed for it! All we had plywood boats and rags for sails!

 

Cockpit arangements in the new boats seem great. A dry and safe space to operate the boat from is more important than getting a tan. >50° lat opinion.

Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you have never done along distance short-handed race.

These things are incredibly tough and punishing. For the stress, lack of sleep, terror. For those times where you do have to go on deck and do a repair in the middle of nowhere where rescue is far from certain if you get hurt, in a storm. For the lack of respite with no chance to shut-off or ask advice.

There are times to enjoy the sunsets, lack of light pollution etc - indeed some skippers have already commented on that. But there isn't much time for such luxuries

Pip on day 1 vs Pip now (“bloody sunsets :angry:“) 

5E6298D3-35D1-42A1-819C-C1B91B9BEED9.jpeg

53AAB807-0811-487F-BEF3-EBA77872EF50.jpeg

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, minca3 said:

But they would reach these max-RM only when hitting their speed limits at over 30kn. Why would a designer design the foils for the edge case of perfect conditions when they will sail 99% of the time at 10 - 25 kn where every bit of added RM is translates into better average speed?
 

Because you can finish the race without a foil, but not without a mast. So if you know the RM acceptable to the mast then you should consider that. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, astro said:

Well, if you have a standard mast they should not design the boat to break it.

If they do start popping now I will know why and who to blame.

Not sure if this was noted earlier,  but the One Design mast was created prior to the foils.  

It was designed around dagger boards a canting keel and some ballast.  

The foils can generate substantially more force then the dagger boards. Enough to lift the boats out of the water and keep them there; not only lifting the weight of the boat but resisting the force of the wind. 

It makes sense that the mast is now the weak link. It is essentially dated technology. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Kojis track is now away from the canaries. I thought he was heading there to fix and then heard that in one of the videos I think. Now he’s turned about. Sitting in no wind, I wonder if he completed the fix and is getting back to it? Hope so.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Kevin on PRB quietly and steadily chugging along without drama or fanfare and has a strong shot at podium finish. I wonder if Sebastian Simon regrets not keeping the PRB lease and spending all that money, heartache and time on Arkea Paprec 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Safari translation doesn't quite clarify the details of the work to Charal

Quote

Since joining the pontoon of Port Olona on Saturday at midday, the IMOCA Charal has been the scene of a real commando operation that required the involvement of the entire Charal Sailing Team, supported by the architects, the shipyard, technical partners and four composite specialists who came to reinforce them. After a complete diagnosis of the damage suffered by the silver monohull between Tuesday and Wednesday, everyone set to work to repair Charal as soon as possible. This is about to be done, since as soon as the hardware has been reassembled and the last reinforcements dried, Jérémie Beyou will go back to sea on Tuesday afternoon, which he confirmed this Monday: "The boat will be ready tomorrow morning and Charal will be able to go back to sea in the afternoon, between 3pm and 3:30pm, it's great news, the race will resume. "

Technical Director of the Charal Sailing Team, Pierre-François Dargnies details what was done in record time: "The starboard rudder was replaced, we checked the entire system that was not touched. We also inspected the starboard foil and keel, which were also not impacted, changed the starboard bastac and the defective air, while the mainsail, which had also been damaged, made a round trip to Vannes at the North Sails sailboat to be retouched. The biggest job was the listening bar partition which required more repairs than expected. "

And the interested party praised the general mobilization since Saturday: "Everyone has switched to mission mode, there is a lot of solidarity, the team is very close-knit, everyone is focused on what they have to do, and this Monday, it works in music and under the sun, it's appreciable! ". Strongly touched by the welcome given to him on his return to Les Sables d'Olonne and by this mobilization around him, Jérémie Beyou adds: "I would like to thank the entire Charal Sailing team who, as usual, has given themselves day and night since I arrived, but also all the subcontractors and external service providers, all these skills added together make my departure possible. I often say that the Vendée Globe is a team race, they have all demonstrated that with willpower, we can work miracles, they have put a lot of energy into it. Behind, it's up to me to be up to the task, to respect all the work that has been done and to leave. "

https://www.charalsailingteam.fr/jeremie-beyou-ca-repare-et-ca-repart/

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, bclovisp said:

Or for OD foils.

Personally I hope they don't go to OD foils, atleast not for awhile.  Foils are too new, there is still too much to knowledge to gain about them.  OD stifles development. Once everyone converges on similar foils, then it may be time to consider a OD rule, or a possibly a box.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

OD foil articulation mechanism components is probably more of a cost saver than OD foils - with OD foils you basically eliminate the design differentiation and everyboat will converge to look the same because the hull must follow the foil shape.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, stief said:

Safari translation doesn't quite clarify the details of the work to Charal

https://www.charalsailingteam.fr/jeremie-beyou-ca-repare-et-ca-repart/

Main work is the support of the main traveller, the whole support was cracked and needed to be reconnected and reinforced. The main went back to the North loft for repairs (has a tear from uncontrolled jybes). Add some replacement hardware: rudder (they had one in stock), a runner, and some faulty aerials.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Buck Turgidson said:

He's found the right settings now after a morning of finding the limits.

Perhaps because the wind speed has backed off a bit.

 

Screen Shot 2020-11-16 at 11.42.59 AM.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Second Row said:

Have any other of the other boats included this feature?

Boris Hermann's display even shows his usage of the two sources. - https://exocet.cloud/grafana/d/bsbc_5MGz/malizia-public-dasboard?orgId=15&from=now-24h&to=now&theme=dark&kiosk

 

Screen Shot 2020-11-16 at 11.45.58 AM.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, stief said:

Safari translation doesn't quite clarify the details of the work to Charal

https://www.charalsailingteam.fr/jeremie-beyou-ca-repare-et-ca-repart/

This has gone up on the English version of the official site.  Good to see him back!

Jérémie Beyou, the 44 year old French skipper who had to sail 600 miles back to Les Sables d’Olonne after damage to his Charal on the second evening of the solo non stop around the world race, has confirmed that he will re-start the race on Tuesday afternoon.

When he restarts the leaders will be around 2500 nautical miles south approaching the Doldrums tomorrow, but he sets off believing 'miracles can happen'. 

Beyou, who was the outstanding favourite to win the race, hit a floating object on Charal on the third evening of the race. The impact damaged one of Charal's rudders and its mounting and control mechanisms. He broke a backstay and there was sundry composite damage to the deck and his mainsheet traveller.   

A round the clock team effort by up to 20 people who worked flat out since the bitterly disappointed Beyou docked his boat back in Les Sables d’Olonne on Sunday afternoon has returned the boat to 100% of its potential, according the solo racer who finished third on the last Vendée Globe.

Speaking to an on-line media conference from his apartment in Les Sables d’Olonne, he said,

“It’s strange to be replying to your questions when I am away from my boat, Charal. But I’ll soon be back there, as thanks to the work carried out after the past few days, we now know the boat will be ready tomorrow morning and ready to take off on the tide in the afternoon. It is excellent news. I would like to thank the whole team, as they have given it their all since I arrived back here in Port Olona.” 

Beyou stated: 

“ The Vendée Globe is a team effort and if everyone pulls together, we can work miracles.”

He explained, “The main problem, the one that made me turn back, was the issue with the rudder. Technically, however the most problematic to repair was the traveller, but actually it was the rudder mounting and the control arm which had broken, and there is a structural part of the boat. We had to survey the damage first to see where the water had leaked in to and up to where. We needed to repair this on both sides. We had to work with a whole series of experts to figure this out and all within the time constraints. We also had some wind vane issues, main sail damage from the series of gybes when the rudder hit something.”

He repeated, “I really have to thank the whole team.”

Beyou has been locked down in isolation with his partner since arriving back in Les Sables d'Olonne. He purposely detatched himself from all race updates and social media.

“ It was very hard for me to not be there (during the repairs) but also I had to take my head out of the race and I did not look at the rankings, shut out and did not look at any social media, all this whilst I was trying to stay close to my team and support them remotely. Since the start we have been working as a very close-knit team.”

 On the first night they said they sent me a message to say that they did not think they would manage to fix it within the time limit. But deep down I knew they would. So it was probably a good thing that I was not with them so I could get time to recover and really figure out the whole meaning behind the project, how everyone feels about it, the public, the Charal employees, the press, friends…”

He continued, “I just did not answer any messages, but I knew that I had to go back to the race. I did hear about Nico’s dismasting and I know I said I cut myself out of the race coms, but I did hear and I am so so sorry for him and his whole team. I know how much energy it takes to do a Vendée Globe and what is needed to get a project off the ground and going.”

“There were 10 to 15 people who put all their combined talent efforts together to get the job done. The architects from VPLP, Gurit composites, Manu Le Borgne, and behind them you have the logistics team, the team who did the hardware components, the splicing and ropeworks guys, the team at North Sails ready to do repairs to the main sail,  the Pixel electricians. The list is endless. When I got to the pontoon the other day and saw what a team of experts that was there waiting, I said to myself, my goodness! You feel you need to be there and to be on site and respect all the work that has been done but you just have to go.”

“ I have often said that the Vendee Globe is a race that is carried out by a team, and here you go, that is demonstrated by these people. Miracles can happen when you really try.”

Speaking about leader Alex Thomson he said, “I am happy for Alex being in the lead, I know he has a really good boat, and I am happy for him. He did a great move a few days ago. All I know is that Jean was in the lead for a bit and now that Alex is leading the charge. I did just tried to disconnect a bit.”

“After all that we will see what happens back on the sea. I really prefer to have no expectations, I don't want to set any goals. I don't know what we will discover. So we will see.”

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, stief said:

Safari translation doesn't quite clarify the details of the work to Charal

https://www.charalsailingteam.fr/jeremie-beyou-ca-repare-et-ca-repart/

A few corrections to the automatic translation:

<<

Since joining the pontoon of Port Olona on Saturday at midday, the IMOCA Charal has been the scene of a real commando operation that required the involvement of the entire Charal Sailing Team, supported by the architects, the shipyard, technical partners and four composite specialists who came to reinforce them. After a complete diagnosis of the damage suffered by the silver monohull between Tuesday and Wednesday, everyone set to work to repair Charal as soon as possible. This is about to be done, since as soon as the hardware has been reassembled and the last reinforcements dried, Jérémie Beyou will go back to sea on Tuesday afternoon, which he confirmed this Monday: "The boat will be ready tomorrow morning and Charal will be able to go back to sea in the afternoon, between 3pm and 3:30pm, it's great news, the race will resume. "

Technical Director of the Charal Sailing Team, Pierre-François Dargnies details what was done in record time: "The starboard rudder was replaced, we checked the entire system that was not touched. We also inspected the starboard foil and keel, which were also not impacted, changed the starboard runner and the defective wind indicator/sensor, while the mainsail, which had also been damaged, made a round trip to Vannes at the North Sails sailboat to be repaired. The biggest job was the bulkhead holding the traveler which required more repairs than expected. "

And the interested party praised the general mobilization since Saturday: "Everyone has switched to mission mode, there is a lot of solidarity, the team is very close-knit, everyone is focused on what they have to do, and this Monday, it works in music and under the sun, it's appreciable! ". Strongly touched by the welcome given to him on his return to Les Sables d'Olonne and by this mobilization around him, Jérémie Beyou adds: "I would like to thank the entire Charal Sailing team who, as usual, has given themselves day and night since I arrived, but also all the subcontractors and external service providers, all these skills added together make my departure possible. I often say that the Vendée Globe is a team race, they have all demonstrated that with willpower, we can work miracles, they have put a lot of energy into it. Behind, it's up to me to be up to the task, to respect all the work that has been done and to leave. "

>>

In the live French interview, Jérémie explained that the damage on the bulkhead meant that first they had to grind off the damage part until they got to sound structure. He also said that they had to get the water out...

Then they repaired, and made it stronger, and made the same modification on the other side to make it stronger as well.

 

 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, arr4ws said:

Omg the reaction of AT when he learned about Corum. 

6AAFA7E2-CAFD-4BDE-82C1-A41FCB470889.png

 :D  Knowing Corum's misfortune and inmediately terrified thinking he has the same fckg OD mast... :o

(and with almost the whole globe to fly till... what a bloody crazy russian roulette!)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, staysail said:

Surely the history behind the one design mast is that up to and including 2009 imocas were seeing an embarrassing number of dismastings and fabricated keel failures so decided that a "strong, safe" one design mast and a companion "strong, safe" one-design keel would solve the issue. (I'm sure to be corrected here if I have got that wrong!), but that, as far as the mast was concerned, was based on relatively predictable "static" righting moments coming from keel ballast, keel cant, water ballast and beam, all of which were controlled in the class rules. Based on these righting moments the one-design mast adopted before everyone started to use foils to increase righting moment, was supposed to be "safe" almost regardless of how the boat was sailed.
Now we have foils which dramatically increase a dynamic righting moment to values not controlled in the class rules the loads on the mast are no longer controlled by dimensions and weights in the rules and the one design mast and keel cannot any longer be considered "inherently safe". Now all the fast boats are using load cells in the rig so the skippers can actively depower the rig if breaking point is approached but the rig and foils are definitely capable of breaking the mast if the boat is pushed to the limit.
Result is the one design mast and keel are no longer very safe, so in a development class I question why they are still one-design. Others will argue that its still a good thing because it prevents a new mast/keel arms race which would further escalate costs, but foils are not exactly cheap, and I can't see too many skippers wanting to see a one-design foil and foil control system as well, which would logically follow.
Better in my opinion to allow the class to return to its roots as a true box rule type development class and abandon the one-design aspects altogether.

I like your thinking, staysail. I think Mini 650 has handled this problem well - in splitting the fleet into Proto and Series; which also helps maintain any legacy issues (IMOCA60 skippers were also worried about this - although JLC is questioning that right now!).

A fully open Box Rule could control Proto development and the inevitable arms race, while the OD components could take care of the older boats.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some numbers form 1700 update

                        TWA       TWS     BS

Boss               126         13.4      18.9

Cam                117         12.1     16.5

Linked             114        12.6      20.1

Apivia              116        12.6      18.5

PRB                 129         12.6      18.8

Entering the ITCZ looks to be better by a full knot of TWS on Wednseday than Tuesday, which I think means there will be a little bit of compression in the leaders. Prediction to the Equator Boss, Linked, Apivia, PRB and Cam.  Of course the first to the Trades after will start the bungy cord stretch again.

AT's reaction to Corum loss shows the level of camaraderie within this group.  But, also the level of concern as to cause of loss and what to look for.  Hope for news very soon.

Vendee20.JPG

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Applespider said:

I think that's an exaggeration.  We see them at their screens because there are limited places to sit aboard and it tends to be at their nav station.   Yes, they'll spent a few hours per day checking weather and routing but there will be exception alerts when set parameters are hit.

^^^^ This

You only get 2 weather downloads every 24 hours though sources staggered. If you don't put a strict 'time limit' on routing and fleet watching ** you are doing a shit job and something will break that could have been avoided. Not like a crewed boat where Nav can keep a rolling 24 hour analysis going. 

** Satellite photography and squizzing cloud formations in the ITCZ maybe a rule exception. A little known fact. Pre internet you could hack into satellite photography download direct in real time using a HF radio.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if the engineering was not upped for the OD masts and keels as a result of load data from the foilers in previous races.  It would appear imprudent to be using 10 year old engineering specs on the latest generation foilers.

Of course, that then means that a percentage of the new fleet are essentially guinea pigs for the new scantlings!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, stief said:
4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Stief he said; "Don't tell Alex, but I banged his missus, it's good to be out here away from her heated text messages."  

How long before Alex finds out and goes mental???

Ah! now I see..

Stief so does Alex now hear....now the shit is really.going to hit the fan. 

Will he turn around and chase Charlie?? 

Charlie is hoping so. :lol:

IMG_20201117_041440.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

I like your thinking, staysail. I think Mini 650 has handled this problem well - in splitting the fleet into Proto and Series; which also helps maintain any legacy issues (IMOCA60 skippers were also worried about this - although JLC is questioning that right now!).

A fully open Box Rule could control Proto development and the inevitable arms race, while the OD components could take care of the older boats.

I mean then you're essentially looking at the ocean race with the 11th hour juggernaut of building foils and owning multiple imocas and realizing you can't clap with only one hand. 

Not enough people have the appetite to play the development arms race - just look at the ultime dock queens. A proto mini doesn't cost 6 million dollars and see its chance to win a race every 4 years vaporize in a week. I think that's kind of amusing is the people who have the most problem with the OD mast being the limitation don't seem to think one step ahead - what happens once the mast is not OD? What's the structural limitation? The keel? Want to get rid of that too? Why have inversion tests?! There's a checklist of items you can apply to the imoca class that you can cross off and turn it into America's Cup. 

And in the process decimate the value of existing boat owners and create go from an event with record number of new boats, 33 strong fleet into... maybe 8 boats. 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Miffy said:

I mean then you're essentially looking at the ocean race with the 11th hour juggernaut of building foils and owning multiple imocas and realizing you can't clap with only one hand. 

Not enough people have the appetite to play the development arms race - just look at the ultime dock queens. A proto mini doesn't cost 6 million dollars and see its chance to win a race every 4 years vaporize in a week. I think that's kind of amusing is the people who have the most problem with the OD mast being the limitation don't seem to think one step ahead - what happens once the mast is not OD? What's the structural limitation? The keel? Want to get rid of that too? Why have inversion tests?! There's a checklist of items you can apply to the imoca class that you can cross off and turn it into America's Cup. 

And in the process decimate the value of existing boat owners and create go from an event with record number of new boats, 33 strong fleet into... maybe 8 boats. 

I agree with this, I like seeing as many qualified skippers out there as possible, not a half dozen billionaire rocket ships. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

So, if the O.D. masts were originally design to keep masts from breaking, why not s et the weight and COG of the O.D. masts as the bare minimum in a box rule and let those with the budgets build masts to meet the loads the foilers generate.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you have never done along distance short-handed race.

These things are incredibly tough and punishing. For the stress, lack of sleep, terror. For those times where you do have to go on deck and do a repair in the middle of nowhere where rescue is far from certain if you get hurt, in a storm. For the lack of respite with no chance to shut-off or ask advice.

There are times to enjoy the sunsets, lack of light pollution etc - indeed some skippers have already commented on that. But there isn't much time for such luxuries

Read my second post.  I've done short course single handed racing on boats between 24 and 32'.  Even in the 4kt shit box category it's super stressful on an inland lake where you have constant sight of land.  I've also done a few long passages in much larger sailing vessels and it's amazing how small 150' of boat can feel in the open ocean during rough weather.  In my second post I ask weather or not the current technology is actually getting beyond the limits of human endurance, (Stress, lack of sleep, terror- listening to/watching Alex bounce around in a black carbon box...).  The boats are now being built for 24/7 full on sailing at incredible speeds.  Clearly at this level there's very little time for "smelling the roses".  I guess the boats in this class have been beasts for some time now.  Hugo Boss' design just freaks me out a bit.   It's like he's in a racecar car without a windshield.  

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

So, if the O.D. masts were originally design to keep masts from breaking, why not s et the weight and COG of the O.D. masts as the bare minimum in a box rule and let those with the budgets build masts to meet the loads the foilers generate.

Because except for maybe 4 teams, no one else will benefit and you'll watch greater performance spread. Am I the only one watching the race? How do you guys feels about 1000nm separation in LESS THAN OPTIMAL conditions for 2020 foilers after one week? It doesn't help the show. Costs a lot of money. And things will still break. 

Notice how the most vocal high profile proponents are yacht building project guys who used to race in the imoca class, boat designers - but not a lot of skippers. 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, blunderfull said:

What’s the popular choice for noise cancelling muffs these days?

Can you imagine 70+ days of this?  It's really mind blowing.  These are some seriously talented individuals taking this on! 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TheDragon said:

First drone footage

 

Whew. That retrieval was nerve-racking. Even though watching it I knew the landing must have stuck. ;-)

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

There are times to enjoy the sunsets, lack of light pollution etc - indeed some skippers have already commented on that. But there isn't much time for such luxuries

This race more uploads than ever, but still photography of the human form not much which is a real pity.

If you don't know what I mean I recently stumbled across this on UTube thanks to increased UTube VG watching it now bombards me with sailing recomendations, so no fucking idea how this snuck through. 

This guy was the Official White House photographer for Regan and Obama years with a huge collection of 'off the record' spontaneous, NOT posed portrait snaps. 

The screen grab is at 44.00 mark and for any photography buffs, in his section titled 'Aesthetic versus Narrative'.

You can imagine how many of these spontaneous moments slip by onboard, missed as their alone and they don't even know. 

Maybe auto something pic snapper to think about for future editions?

 

IMG_20201117_050437.jpg

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Laurent said:

The biggest job was the bulkhead holding the traveler which required more repairs than expected."...

In the live French interview, Jérémie explained that the damage on the bulkhead meant that first they had to grind off the damage part until they got to sound structure. He also said that they had to get the water out...

Then they repaired, and made it stronger, and made the same modification on the other side to make it stronger as well.

In all the miles of preparation makes you wonder if early on you should wait for shit weather and go out hard and try and break it...even 'war gaming' a few potential fuck ups to expose stuff like this?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

In all the miles of preparation makes you wonder if early on you should wait for shit weather and go out hard and try and break it...even 'war gaming' a few potential fuck ups to expose stuff like this?

They do but covid.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Miffy said:

Because except for maybe 4 teams, no one else will benefit and you'll watch greater performance spread. Am I the only one watching the race? How do you guys feels about 1000nm separation in LESS THAN OPTIMAL conditions for 2020 foilers after one week? It doesn't help the show. Costs a lot of money. And things will still break. 

Notice how the most vocal high profile proponents are yacht building project guys who used to race in the imoca class, boat designers - but not a lot of skippers. 

Just face it Miffy. The OD mast was meant to be strong. Now in foiling boats it is positively weak, and that means its raison d'etre has evaporated. It is a dinosaur, a dead parrot. (and its a miracle if I spelt all that correctly)

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, stief said:

Happy Birthday VSR. From all your relatives foiling in the VG today :P

Only 8 yrs ago. From 500m to 500nm

https://twitter.com/sailrocket/status/1328410606651760640?s=20

Congrats! what an achievement... like sailRocket, time flies... Maybe this aproaches how 2028 VG will look like :ph34r:

I would think about 600Nm/24hr in really really flat water conditions (as shown in img) for the actual IMOCA semi flying beasts

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, arr4ws said:

Omg the reaction of AT when he learned about Corum. 

6AAFA7E2-CAFD-4BDE-82C1-A41FCB470889.png

He knows how to play the media.

He's seen all those youtube OMG videos.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Being a box rule class I'm a bit surprised they went the route they did with the masts. Seems like a no brainer to just put in performance requirements for the masts like CG, Weight, strength relative to RM, etc. that can be demonstrated via designer calculations.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Miffy said:

How do you guys feels about 1000nm separation in LESS THAN OPTIMAL conditions for 2020 foilers after one week? It doesn't help the show.

Miff agree but that a snapshot in time where front runners have hit trades first and compression to equalise still to occur and Top 10 are <300nm spread. Is that a lot different than pre-foiling days?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, james_007_bond said:

Main work is the support of the main traveller, the whole support was cracked and needed to be reconnected and reinforced. The main went back to the North loft for repairs (has a tear from uncontrolled jybes). Add some replacement hardware: rudder (they had one in stock), a runner, and some faulty aerials.

Not the main traveller, the traveller for the jib (or foresail) sheet "rail d'écoute", forgot on which side, but they reinforced both

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, JonRowe said:
43 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

In all the miles of preparation makes you wonder if early on you should wait for shit weather and go out hard and try and break it...even 'war gaming' a few potential fuck ups to expose stuff like this?

They do but covid.

Except Charal came out of the yard and dropped in the piss over 2 years ago and Covid only started pissing on everyone 8 months ago.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, climenuts said:

Being a box rule class I'm a bit surprised they went the route they did with the masts. Seems like a no brainer to just put in performance requirements for the masts like CG, Weight, strength relative to RM, etc. that can be demonstrated via designer calculations.

I don't think the technical team at IMOCA particularly wants to police it - how would you measure RM? At the dock pull down? What about dynamic RM from foil/hull at 25+ knots? introduce more and more unmeasurable designer specs into the class and you get cheating. 

6 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Miff agree but that a snapshot in time where front runners hit trades first and compression to equalise still to occur and Top 10 are <300nm spread. Is that a lot different than pre-foiling days?

I think the "potential performance gap per hour" is getting greater every development cycle - back when the professor won with his NKE autopilot advantage, he could start a day late and make up the difference the remainder 80 days. The "amazing stories" are only possible because of performance cap rules that ensure the race isn't a bygone conclusion by day 7 (barring catastrophic luck/failures). 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Miffy said:

Kevin on PRB quietly and steadily chugging along without drama or fanfare and has a strong shot at podium finish. I wonder if Sebastian Simon regrets not keeping the PRB lease and spending all that money, heartache and time on Arkea Paprec 

Arkea was going quite quickly in the last sked. I'm curious how it and l'occitane will do in the SO

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Second Row said:

On Hugo Boss it looks like the "Coachroof" is made up of solar panels...I thought the hydro-generators made more than enough power?

Anyone know why?

Because IMOCAs are energy hungry: OSCAR, whale ping, radar, autopilot, telecom, hydraulic pump for the keel RAM, nav equipment, (and probably more stuff that I'm not aware of)

Plus in the southern ocean these solar panels will be less effective

Link to post
Share on other sites

There were over six boats that are fast enough to compete for the lead. Charal will unfortunately be a week and a half behind after restart. Corum just lost her mast and is out. Linked Out and Apviva are closing doing everything they can to close the gap that Alex made by taking a very risky route. Armell Tripon should be right up there as well. And then we have a number of non-foilers that have done a great job of keeping Alex pressed. 

So, I'd say we still have a very competitive group even if it is an arms race.

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites