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5 minutes ago, DVV said:

the hull seems to have low form stability, due to its round shape.

Initial stability comes from beam (and keel), like standing with your legs spread, does not matter much if your feet are round or not.
Even with foils Armel can tell how a fuller bow works.

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":A 2h18 heure française, le team PRB a été informé du sauvetage de Kevin Escoffier par Jean Le Cam. " Kevin has been rescued.  

Give it a rest chaps. HB was another attempt at evolution, and they should be applauded for spending a fuck ton of money to do so. If you want to try and be innovative you run the risk of breakages al

VG sailors at sea in the rough A translation: JLC: Damien can you receive me ? DS: Yes Jean I can (garbled)... I don't think you're receiving me that well but I receive you very well. JL

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2 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Initial stability comes from beam (and keel), like standing with your legs spread, does not matter much if your feet are round or not.
Even with foils Armel can tell how a fuller bow works.

Thank you for the explanation. The example is very clear!

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6 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

I keep thinking of my collision with a whale. It was only at 10-12 knots and it felt just like a car crash yet the only damage was abrasions to the leading edge of the keel thanks to the pressure release valve on the hydraulics (swing keel).

So, is such a mechanism even possible within the foil boxes?

If they are made in a box that can move, yes, but that would mean an outside the hull structure. A lot is possible, but in a hull...

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VG + VOR  condemned to be together, definitely working side by side, hopefully we'll have a wealthy and long marriage :) Good news

(PRB RIP and short but impressive aerial sequence of SteelBull Charal foiling in moderate sea state)

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2 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Watching people get shocked about boats dropping out in the Vendee every 4 years is like watching the Australian press and public slowly remember there is a big difference between the Olympic and commonwealth games.

I don't recall 6 drop outs in 9 days in the same postcode. 

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It just needs a rethink. Trying to lift an Imoca down the face of a 15m + wave when it's stalling is a tall order. A lot of the boats have foils that have been added later on as an afterthought to try and catch up. What are the gains? What are the payoffs?  Do they really work in the Southern Ocean in a gale?  All I keep seeing is they have to back off when it gets going, why? What is the failure rate in the fleet so far? 

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3 hours ago, littlechay said:

Somebody was asking about ice danger... virtually none anymore. Going back to beginnings of Vendee.....Southern Right Whale dolphins..

Mate now you are fucking with me knowing I'm desperately waiting to catch you out saying; "Southern Ocean". :D

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43 minutes ago, LeoV said:

If they are made in a box that can move, yes, but that would mean an outside the hull structure. A lot is possible, but in a hull...

Righto, outside the hull it is then...might need a Hugo Boss level of sponsorship :blink:.......

foil.thumb.png.c4c9b5377ef7101063183b6656bcd8db.png

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I could be wrong but I think the class rules only allow one axis of movement and only 10? degrees.

All of the boats with foils are using the pitch axis in the movement control.

Your design is showing yaw movement which would have to be added to the pitch control, a whole new level of complexity (and not class legal).

But it's good that you're thinking about it.

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2 hours ago, Herman said:
17 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

"Having GPS just means it can send useful data over AIS."

With no GPS there is NO fucking AIS PLB.

@shanghaisailor this is your fucking fault and mess I'm cleaning up here. :D

......Jon is right the term overloaded.

Pilot is dead right about confusion....

.....There is misinformation generated innocently by people like Shang and you Jon. There is also the bullshitters like Turd.  

...So now same PLB name for three (3) completely different devices. If approved I doubt the PLB name will survive. Industry and regulators will come up with something to differentiate like DUO PLB or some shit.

_______________

So no wonder the fucking confusion and so many fucking posts here.

Hopefully that's the fucking end.

Very exhausting Jack, I don't give a shit if you are right or wrong. But's toxic troll masculinity in it's purest form for me. Thanks for proving my point exactly. I'll have blocked you like Random, including mentions and messages. Welcome to the hall of fame. 

Herman that post stopped the very shit you were bitching about.

Trolling for you maybe  However it is an important and consequential subject to Kevin's experience and for wider application, but as often subject to misinformation. BUT yes it does bore 90% of people to fucking death.

Herman you got some "adjustment bureau stick" 3 years ago from me in the VOR.. nothing but likeys since my anger management program. Stief was my sponsor.

Would it help if I added saying I've always owned a German car, except once?

I'm now curled up in the foetal position in your place of purgatory, afraid fucking  Randumb will spot me. 

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Google translation from vg website

 

Item

Sam Davies ( Initiatives Coeur ) was at the session this Thursday morning to explain what happened to his monohull in the dead of night ...

“I had gybed behind the front, there was 30 knots of wind. I was advancing between 15 and 22 knots in complicated seas. I typed as if I was on the heels of a rock: I stopped dead. There were creaks. I flew, everything in the boat flew, including my dinner. It was violent, I hurt myself. I dropped everything right away to stop the boat. I typed an UFO, I don't know what it was. I went directly to look around the keel, I knew straight away that it was not the foil but the keel.

The bearings are fine, the bulkheads of each front and rear landing are fine. On the other hand, all the longitudinal bulkheads in the keel well are cracked. This is where the shock was cushioned. I did checks, I have the shore team on standby who work with the architects. There I must take shelter, I move towards Cape Town very slowly. I have the storm, I am downwind but there is a fair amount of sea. I am 310 miles from Cape Bonne-Esperance.

It happened at nightfall: it's always the same, it's always the hard times! Then I was in the dark night to control everything. It was the same thing when I had dismasted, it was in the middle of the night ( note Sam Davies had dismasted in the Vendée Globe 2012/2013 ). I did what I could, in 30 knots of wind, in huge seas. The priority was to stabilize the boat and put it on a course where it is less strained possible.

I did checks with the team. The shock displaced the keel cylinder bellows which seals between the keel well and the cylinder. Suddenly, I took water. The priority was therefore to manage it, it was a little cracked on the joints. At first, I turned on the immersion pump - which is great by the way - I turned it on directly to empty the water that came in through the keel well. It was the most important. I flew in the boat but was lucky because it could have been worse, but my ribs hurt. "

 

the keel hit a ufo, the logitudanals around the keel are damaged, the boat is taking on water (although pumps are managing).  Slowly heading for cape town.

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8 minutes ago, t.rex said:

I could be wrong but I think the class rules only allow one axis of movement and only 10? degrees.

All of the boats with foils are using the pitch axis in the movement control.

Your design is showing yaw movement, a whole new level of complexity (and not class legal).

But it's good that you're thinking about it.

It's quite possible to control pitch with variable sweep. If movement in that axis also give damage mitigation then it's not a bad idea. 

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11 minutes ago, t.rex said:

I could be wrong but I think the class rules only allow one axis of movement and only 10? degrees.

All of the boats with foils are using the pitch axis in the movement control.

Your design is showing yaw movement, a whole new level of complexity (and not class legal).

But it's good that you're thinking about it.

Yep, you 'd have to make it non-adjustable for yaw, purely only for the purpose of shock loads. The lateral ram would lift the foil when to windward.  

But considering I'm about as related to engineering as Mikewof is to being a taciturn chap, I fully expect there is stuff I haven't thought of.

But maybe it is time to get the whole appendage out of the hull. It's not like they don't have the beam to fuck around with deck mounting. Might keep the water on the outside a bit longer at least...... 

  

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4 minutes ago, oioi said:

Google translation from vg website

 

Item

Sam Davies ( Initiatives Coeur ) was at the session this Thursday morning to explain what happened to his monohull in the dead of night ...

“I had gybed behind the front, there was 30 knots of wind. I was advancing between 15 and 22 knots in complicated seas. I typed as if I was on the heels of a rock: I stopped dead. There were creaks. I flew, everything in the boat flew, including my dinner. It was violent, I hurt myself. I dropped everything right away to stop the boat. I typed an UFO, I don't know what it was. I went directly to look around the keel, I knew straight away that it was not the foil but the keel.

The bearings are fine, the bulkheads of each front and rear landing are fine. On the other hand, all the longitudinal bulkheads in the keel well are cracked. This is where the shock was cushioned. I did checks, I have the shore team on standby who work with the architects. There I must take shelter, I move towards Cape Town very slowly. I have the storm, I am downwind but there is a fair amount of sea. I am 310 miles from Cape Bonne-Esperance.

It happened at nightfall: it's always the same, it's always the hard times! Then I was in the dark night to control everything. It was the same thing when I had dismasted, it was in the middle of the night ( note Sam Davies had dismasted in the Vendée Globe 2012/2013 ). I did what I could, in 30 knots of wind, in huge seas. The priority was to stabilize the boat and put it on a course where it is less strained possible.

I did checks with the team. The shock displaced the keel cylinder bellows which seals between the keel well and the cylinder. Suddenly, I took water. The priority was therefore to manage it, it was a little cracked on the joints. At first, I turned on the immersion pump - which is great by the way - I turned it on directly to empty the water that came in through the keel well. It was the most important. I flew in the boat but was lucky because it could have been worse, but my ribs hurt. "

 

the keel hit a ufo, the logitudanals around the keel are damaged, the boat is taking on water (although pumps are managing).  Slowly heading for cape town.

Fuck, that's game over - has she officially called it a daay?

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The real problem is that the class has been stuck in the past and trying to keep the existing rules in place  and these never envisaged the development of the foils.   If you want to foil over the world's oceans then  Imoca needs to accept that the game has to be be revised, and not in minor tweaks.

These fat hull shapes are unnecessary when the RM is coming from the foils, but you're stuck with the class rig that is now oversize and heavy as the starting point.  One design keel fin is fair enough, but the rest of the rule drives the design into areas that are undesirable.

Time to throw it out as far as foilers are concerned and say enough is enough.   I have a sneaking suspicion that the last HBoss would have been a better bet for this race, current crop are 'overfoiled' and see how Le Roi JC is managing - every chance of winning this particular race, and for sure he's likely to be a damn sight quicker back up the Atlantic than many of the new boats.

 

 

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KE: How is it going Jean ?

JLC: Yes and you ?

KE: We've seen worse.

JLC: Coffee?

KE: Boat is going well ?

JLC: Not bad at all. Gonna stay at the edge of the high pressure to avoid the worst. We have had enough of the tough bit.

KE: Hi everyone ! Talking from Yes we Cam with Jean. Our "adventures" are behind us, as least time wise, still thinking about it a bit. I have seen all the support messages receibed by PRB and my family. Thanks everyone, in partcilar the PRB people. In addition to the scary moments, I am disappointed, I won't be able to finish the race. I still cannot believe the boat folded in a surf, but as says Jean-Jacques (Laurent, PRB boss), it is only equipment, the rest ended up well. Anyhow, hello everyone, will keep you updated from Jean's boat. It is going well, it's a good fast boat, it's confortable, food is good. All is well. See you soon, thanks for all the support.

 

 

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https://www.bateaux.com/article/35170/la-collision-avec-un-navire-de-course-importante-cause-de-mortalite-pour-les-cetaces

 

Actually, they really try to improve systems to avoid collisions with marines mammals, hope the experiment with Fabrice Amadeo is going to lead to something relevant for the next races

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3 minutes ago, GBH said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that the last HBoss would have been a better bet for this race, current crop are 'overfoiled' and see how Le Roi JC is managing - every chance of winning this particular race, and for sure he's likely to be a damn sight quicker back up the Atlantic than many of the new boats.

not to forget Dutreux, who is sitting in the rescuers' pack in the "old old" BOSS

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3 minutes ago, Raptorsailor said:

Forgetting Cheminées Poujolat JuanK? which sunk in rather dubious conditions.

What is dubious about "the core failed"?

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14 minutes ago, cortosam said:

https://www.bateaux.com/article/35170/la-collision-avec-un-navire-de-course-importante-cause-de-mortalite-pour-les-cetaces

 

Actually, they really try to improve systems to avoid collisions with marines mammals, hope the experiment with Fabrice Amadeo is going to lead to something relevant for the next races

Just have a fleet of japanese whalers lead the fleet around the world. They can do their "science" and the sailors can sail. Oh, maybe a few (of the whalers) will hit UFOs and sink along the way instead of the IMOCAs. Its a win win!

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Today's official live in French:

Sebastien Simon is very down, feels like a very unfair thing happening to him. He wants to carry on.

Only way to repair is to cut the foil in bits from the top to remove. Foil is about 300 kg so cannot be handled in one piece.

Once this is done, it should be possible to repair the hole from inside and outside to stop the water ingress. Repairing from the outside requires calm water conditions, which is not the case at the moment and won't be for at least 24 hours. He has to get closer to land. One bulkhead under the cockpit is also cracked, which is likely to be a consequence of the shock as well (it wasn't cracked the day before).

In addition to all that, one of the rudder seals is torn, so he has to pump water out of there every 2 hours or so for 40 minutes. This is not a nice place to be.

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2 minutes ago, Bebmoumoute said:

Today's official live in French:

Sebastien Simon is very down, feels like a very unfair thing happening to him. He wants to carry on.

Only way to repair is to cut the foil in bits from the top to remove. Foil is about 300 kg so cannot be handled in one piece.

Once this is done, it should be possible to repair the hole from inside and outside to stop the water ingress. Repairing from the outside requires calm water conditions, which is not the case at the moment and won't be for at least 24 hours. He has to get closer to land. One bulkhead under the cockpit is also cracked, which is likely to be a consequence of the shock as well (it wasn't cracked the day before).

In addition to all that, one of the rudder seals is torn, so he has to pump water out of there every 2 hours or so for 40 minutes. This is not a nice place to be.

At this point I think its safe to say its time to head to Cape Town. :(

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25 minutes ago, Raptorsailor said:

Jesus Christ. I dropped off the face of the earth for around 2 weeks, come back and an IMOCA has only gone and fucking sunk. Forgetting Cheminées Poujolat JuanK? which sunk in rather dubious conditions. What the actual fuck. 

Yeah you have some catching up to do

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25 minutes ago, GBH said:

The real problem is that the class has been stuck in the past and trying to keep the existing rules in place  and these never envisaged the development of the foils. 

Actually there was one modification in OD parts that was necessary for foilers - the engine coolling water goes through the keel fin now. So, you can't say that they are not evolving. ;)

 

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53 minutes ago, Bebmoumoute said:

 

KE: How is it going Jean ?

JLC: Yes and you ?

KE: We've seen worse.

JLC: Coffee?

KE: Boat is going well ?

JLC: Not bad at all. Gonna stay at the edge of the high pressure to avoid the worst. We have had enough of the tough bit.

KE: Hi everyone ! Talking from Yes we Cam with Jean. Our "adventures" are behind us, as least time wise, still thinking about it a bit. I have seen all the support messages receibed by PRB and my family. Thanks everyone, in partcilar the PRB people. In addition to the scary moments, I am disappointed, I won't be able to finish the race. I still cannot believe the boat folded in a surf, but as says Jean-Jacques (Laurent, PRB boss), it is only equipment, the rest ended up well. Anyhow, hello everyone, will keep you updated from Jean's boat. It is going well, it's a good fast boat, it's confortable, food is good. All is well. See you soon, thanks for all the support.

 

 

JLC is my hero.

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band.png.8489a541d4991de0add758203a632dfb.png

Also have been thinking about the UFO/OFNI topic from a statistical point of view:

1. Let's "narrow down" the band of sea where the fleet is sailing in the SO to an imaginary section between Cape Town and the AEZ. This is ~620 nautical miles. For the sake of comparisons let's convert this to kilometers = ~1.148 kilometers. Multiply by a thousand to get the value in 1.148.000 meters.

2. A IMOCA with both foils extended is ~ at max 14 meters wide.

3. Consider a "worst case" (?) scenario when there are 100 UFOs, capable of causing significant damage to a rudder/foils evenly distributed on this line. This means that between each UFO there is a 11.48 kilometer wide gate to pass through.

5. The chance of hitting such a UFO with the above conditions  is ~ 0,12%, = 1 out of 1000 passing Imocas should hit one. (Rough rounding.)

Now we have 4 boats out of ~24 that are already are south enough with collisions+damage: Boss, LinkedOut, Arkea Paprec, and Initiatives C.

Is my "worst case" value of 100 way underestimated, and there is truly a belt of serious garbage floating around Antartica?

(Also I understand that for whales some have installed these sound pingers in the bulbs to distract them way ahead.)

 

 

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4 minutes ago, ct800 said:

 

Now we have 4 boats out of ~24 that are already are south enough with collisions+damage: Boss, LinkedOut, Arkea Paprec, and Initiatives C.

 

 

An average of 5 boats have retired by now.

This isn't an unprecedented year in any way.

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It May not be an unprecedented year but it does not look good whatever spin is put on it. The top two boats are out. I feel for the guys n girls who are out. They have kept their side of the bargain only to be let down by yachts that can not do the job for them at full throttle. No doubt there will be more retirements. It's crap.

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After reading Sam's report regarding damages I can't help thinking that Kevin hit something as well. Not an UFO like Sam. Rather a submerged object with the lower part of the keel. If you do it while flying it can crate quite a punishable pitching motion. I think they didn't consider that in their calculations and simulations.

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3 minutes ago, CARBONINIT said:

It May not be an unprecedented year but it does not look good whatever spin is put on it. The top two boats are out. I feel for the guys n girls who are out. They have kept their side of the bargain only to be let down by yachts that can not do the job for them at full throttle. No doubt there will be more retirements. It's crap.

So basically every year "does not look good". Got it. Stop watching then. 

Are you suffering a bit of senility? This is a war of attrition. 50% of the fleet finishes. This isn't a bunch of 4 knot shit boxes drifting around the world creating their own ecosystem.

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1 minute ago, CARBONINIT said:

It May not be an unprecedented year but it does not look good whatever spin is put on it. The top two boats are out. I feel for the guys n girls who are out. They have kept their side of the bargain only to be let down by yachts that can not do the job for them at full throttle. No doubt there will be more retirements. It's crap.

Which boats were favourites is quite opinionated. It is also notable that most of the boats which have failed have had issues before the race, except Charal who is still racing, and Sam at least in the current incarnation.

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11 minutes ago, TPG said:

So basically every year "does not look good". Got it. Stop watching then. 

Are you suffering a bit of senility? This is a war of attrition. 50% of the fleet finishes. This isn't a bunch of 4 knot shit boxes drifting around the world creating their own ecosystem.

Every 4 years dear.

8 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

Which boats were favourites is quite opinionated. It is also notable that most of the boats which have failed have had issues before the race, except Charal who is still racing, and Sam at least in the current incarnation.

Ok biggest budgets.

Enjoy the failures.

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20 minutes ago, pilot said:

After reading Sam's report regarding damages I can't help thinking that Kevin hit something as well. Not an UFO like Sam. Rather a submerged object with the lower part of the keel. If you do it while flying it can crate quite a punishable pitching motion. I think they didn't consider that in their calculations and simulations.

Interesting. Mate wouldn't a keel strike in a canter induce a sudden change in direction and inclination?

Kevin's "foldaboat' going down a wave and as described at the bottom sounded to me more like a 'cake' being dropped on 'carpet' rather than 'concrete.'

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3 hours ago, tallyho said:

image.thumb.png.c33a67f55507420adb4bef22db95f51c.png

I think this picture of Sam's boat says a lot;

-Leverage of an impact at +/- 20 knots towards the tip of that foil must be huge, and difficult to engineer for when you are trying to be as light as possible

-Older boats have a very low frontal profile. The frontal profile of these foils are waaay bigger in comparison.

It's the keel that got hit for Sam

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3 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Interesting. Mate wouldn't a keel strike in a canter induce a sudden change in direction and inclination?

Kevin's "foldaboat' going down a wave and as described at the bottom sounded to me more like a 'cake' being dropped on 'carpet' rather than 'concrete.'

Also his account of the boat breaking never had any indication that it hit something, just that it came down the wave, and instead of diving through the wave, folded right up. If it hit something, one would think he would have mentioned a bang or being tossed.

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News - Sam Davies, 'It was violent' - Vendée Globe - En (vendeeglobe.org)
 

Sam Davies this morning on the audio call, “I was sailing last night I had gybed in the shift in the front, there was 30-35kts of wind for the gybe and that had gone well, and I was happy with where I was. I was sailing on starboard gybe heading east, and obviously the sea state was quite chaotic which it has been for the last two days. And obviously I know I was in these currents and I know these risks are there but I was sailing really nicely, as well as possible given the sea state. So speeds between 15 and 22kts and I was actually just making a hot meal after the gybe and the stack and everything and it was just starting to get dark. I hit something. I did not see anything. I did not know what it was. It was pretty much dark when it happened. But it was as if I had run aground on a rock at the time. The boatspeed went from 20kts to zero. The boat nosedived on the impact with the keel. I knew it was the keel. I heard a crack coming from there. I and everything else flew forwards, including my dinner which has repainted the entire inside of my boat. Everything moved. I went flying into a ring frame, luckily, because that could have been worse. It was really violent. But luckily I have just hurt some ribs. It is not serious but really painful. But I stopped the boat, dropped the main, and went to check around the keel, the bearings and the bulkhead. The bulkhead, the main bearing bulkheads (which support the keelbox)  are intact as far as I can see. The keelbearings are intact. The longitudinal structure around the keelbox is all cracked. That has taken the shock of the impact of when the boat moved, that is cracked on both sides. The keel ram, because the keel ram goes through the sidewall of the keelbox, that had all moved and there is a watertight seal on the ram and that was knocked off. There was some water coming in but I have a really good immersion pump which I got going really quickly and permanently to keep the water down. For me the most important thing is to stabilise the boat. It is still is really bad, 30kts of wind, so I have the boat on a course which will minimise all the strains and effort on the keel and the bulkheads. And then I ran a whole lot of checks with my team who mobilised really quickly, the architects and the structural engineers just to check I was not in immediate danger. We did that really and the news was reassuring, they were really confident that I am not in danger unless I sail fast, so there is no bad noise and the keel is still in its bearings and not moving at all. I cannot sail at any speed, so I am heading slowly towards Cape Town because that is the nearest shelter and we are continuing to assess the damage and what to do with my shore team who are being amazing.”

Sam Davies / Initiatives-Cœur 

 

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26 minutes ago, TPG said:

So basically every year "does not look good". Got it. Stop watching then. 

Are you suffering a bit of senility? This is a war of attrition. 50% of the fleet finishes. This isn't a bunch of 4 knot shit boxes drifting around the world creating their own ecosystem.

And here I thought it was suppose to be a sailboat race, not Death match 2020 or Mad Max: Water War Zone.  I've said before that most folks like to watch a race, not episodes of Survivor.  I can accept if something goes wrong or a skipper makes a bad decision and I even accept that this is extreme sailing, but taking boats out randomly, boats fans and sponsors want and expect to finish...maybe not so interesting.  The topic of ROI has come up from time to time in both the VOR and VG threads and while sailing super fast is cool, losing a few million because of "something" in the water that damages or destroys a fragile, high performance, not cool.

This is why you don't see F1's running the Baja and why Baja racing does not get the same level of money and interest.  It is at least a consideration that the performance and fragility has started to exceed what the ocean dishes up.

Not my call, but frustrated that three boats I followed are out.  Almost afraid to be supporting Isabelle because I LOVE what she is doing right now.

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2 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

And here I thought it was suppose to be a sailboat race, not Death match 2020 or Mad Max: Water War Zone.  I've said before that most folks like to watch a race, not episodes of Survivor.

But that is exactly what this race has always been.

The Vendee, the BOC, the Globe Challenge, etc. It's never been just a sailboat race. It was who could go all the way around alone. Without the boat falling apart or the skipper falling apart.

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JLC is going quite fast most of the time. I suppose he is pushing a bit harder than some of the others, but did also read that there were improvements made to his boat, but don't remember exactly what.

Everything has been so much about the foils during these last years, so not even sure how to improve hulls with traditional dagger boards anymore

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Just now, TPG said:

But that is exactly what this race has always been.

The Vendee, the BOC, the Globe Challenge, etc. It's never been just a sailboat race. It was who could go all the way around alone. Without the boat falling apart or the skipper falling apart.

I'll leave it with this, your words.  This is not about boats "falling apart".  It is about boats getting broken by unknown, external forces/objects.  That's different.  If a mast breaks, a keel drops off because of poor construction, a sail rips because the skipper held it on too long, shit happens.  Same with a skipper who sails into a hole or makes a bad routing call, shit happens and that is part of racing.

What I am talking about is like watching a car race, but randomly holes open in the track and swallows cars.  Yes, these skippers (may) understand and yes they (may) be willing to accept the risk, but I've followed two VGs with foiling and this time the breaks have been greater impacting top sailors and sponsors.  

 

So, if sponsors want to take the chance, if skippers want to take the chance...there it is, but at some point attrition and random take downs will impact the essence of this race.  At least for me.

 

Fair winds.

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16 hours ago, Zonker said:

Logs are pretty pervasive. I've hit more of them than whales. But my point is you can't just say "most probably it was a whale". It's a total guess as to what he hit. 

Logs are not rare at all and are not as skilled as whales at avoiding boats. Found out after crossing an ocean that the bow had a few more scars on it than before each time. Difference was that our boat shape and construction (Bristol 45.5) not forgetting speed, was not conducive to getting damaged. Once we hit a log and rode up on top of it and had to use a boat hook to push it away. Closest encounter was with a sperm whale and he manoeuvred to pass close astern of us in very calm conditions - we were motoring at the time.

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1 hour ago, Bebmoumoute said:

Today's official live in French:

Sebastien Simon is very down, feels like a very unfair thing happening to him. He wants to carry on.

Only way to repair is to cut the foil in bits from the top to remove. Foil is about 300 kg so cannot be handled in one piece.

Once this is done, it should be possible to repair the hole from inside and outside to stop the water ingress. Repairing from the outside requires calm water conditions, which is not the case at the moment and won't be for at least 24 hours. He has to get closer to land. One bulkhead under the cockpit is also cracked, which is likely to be a consequence of the shock as well (it wasn't cracked the day before).

In addition to all that, one of the rudder seals is torn, so he has to pump water out of there every 2 hours or so for 40 minutes. This is not a nice place to be.

Anchorage would be needed and a way to tilt the boat so you can repair the outside part.

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6 minutes ago, Snowden said:

whilst I applaud F1's commitment to safety, the approach is not entirely compatible with ocean racing

Keep-the-Racetrack-Clean.jpg

We can build semi flying Imoca without keel and any shit. Sort of one hull-maran. Aka Mono-Ac75

Easier than cleaning the whole ocean :lol:

Tracking marine and riverine litter – new recommendations published | EU  Science Hub

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6 minutes ago, TPG said:

Also his account of the boat breaking never had any indication that it hit something, just that it came down the wave, and instead of diving through the wave, folded right up. If it hit something, one would think he would have mentioned a bang or being tossed.

Ok, lets assume that the keel bulb dug into soft whale meat while the bow was cutting into the next wave. Can one distinguish the difference if the boat is folding at the same time? I mean the speed and pitching rotation is absorbed by folding deformations and there is no loud bang that you are expecting during a collision. Or actually you have to look it in this way that usually the damage is avoided because the bow bounces up while going into the wave. But this time the keel was holding it down and the inertia was burring the bow more into the wave. 

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12 minutes ago, jonas a said:

JLC is going quite fast most of the time. I suppose he is pushing a bit harder than some of the others, but did also read that there were improvements made to his boat, but don't remember exactly what.

Everything has been so much about the foils during these last years, so not even sure how to improve hulls with traditional dagger boards anymore

He may be pushing but the others are also throttled back due to a bad sea state. I believe his boat had a new bow back in 2014

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9 hours ago, Rafael said:

There have been several attacks by estimated 4 herds (15 orcas or so) to the rudders of different sailing boats reported in the last months in Costa da Morte NW Spain and Portugal, there has also been even restricted areas for vessels less than 15.mts long by this cause. Scientists are quite confused and have no answer. Different theories are they are playing with them, hunting practice for the youngs, also maybe somekind of possible vengance and also the decreasing numbers in their food chain... One thing is quite certain, they are very very intelligent creatures... In the Gibraltar Strait, resident herds attack the giant bluefin tuna hooked by fisherman (very easy tasty meal) :) Mr D. Attenborough and the BBC explain it much much better than me :)

Sharks and other fish will eat other hooked fish.  Not sure this is really a mark of intelligence per se, although I don’t think there is any dispute that Orcas are quite smart. 

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1 hour ago, ct800 said:

band.png.8489a541d4991de0add758203a632dfb.png

Also have been thinking about the UFO/OFNI topic from a statistical point of view:

1. Let's "narrow down" the band of sea where the fleet is sailing in the SO to an imaginary section between Cape Town and the AEZ. This is ~620 nautical miles. For the sake of comparisons let's convert this to kilometers = ~1.148 kilometers. Multiply by a thousand to get the value in 1.148.000 meters.

2. A IMOCA with both foils extended is ~ at max 14 meters wide.

3. Consider a "worst case" (?) scenario when there are 100 UFOs, capable of causing significant damage to a rudder/foils evenly distributed on this line. This means that between each UFO there is a 11.48 kilometer wide gate to pass through.

5. The chance of hitting such a UFO with the above conditions  is ~ 0,12%, = 1 out of 1000 passing Imocas should hit one. (Rough rounding.)

Now we have 4 boats out of ~24 that are already are south enough with collisions+damage: Boss, LinkedOut, Arkea Paprec, and Initiatives C.

Is my "worst case" value of 100 way underestimated, and there is truly a belt of serious garbage floating around Antartica?

(Also I understand that for whales some have installed these sound pingers in the bulbs to distract them way ahead.)

 

 

I think your analysis is flawed. I suspect your estimate of 100 UFOs is much too high which would reduce the probably of 0.12% quite substantially, say to 0.0001%, but and it is a huge but, that probability exists for every meter along the course. It will be higher in some places , off the mouth of the Amazon where lots of trees are brought by the river and lower, in the Southern Ocean far away from land. I don't think it is possible to come up with any realistic estimate of the risk. The reality is that there are lots of things to hit in any circumnavigation and when you are going very fast with 'wings' extended it only gets worse. JLC may end up doing very well indeed because his probability of damage is much less and he is very skilled and perhaps lucky when needed.

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In regards to the race, Isabelle may soon pass Pedote...I'm sorry correction, she *has* passed Pedote and is still rolling along.  Those 4 in front of her may start looking backwards and it is not a far distance to look.  7 boats all within 150 nm (front to back) and two of the non-foilers.

 

My question to Herman would be, with boats in this reasonable proximity to each other, would the routing be roughly the same so we are looking at positions changing due to seamanship in the small things (sail shape, course, AP or hand steering) or do the polars of each boat impact the routing decisions and position.  From a different angle, when does the skipper step away from routing and sail what the got? 

 

Isabelle seems to be a good spot to angle down towards the ice line and stay in better breeze.

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If you want to be cynical about it, the Kevin Escoffier rescue is an amazing PR event. ROI for PRB is huge, and probably even more than if he finished the race normally say in 5th place.

You coudn't have written it more perfectly:

  • Sudden rush to escape the boat
  • Le Cam rescues him after struggling, bringing back the memory from the 2008 rescue
  • We should have some great images from the French Navy pickup
  • When Le Cam hopefully finishes the race, he is in for a hell of a welcome in Les Sables, probably with the whole of the PRB company there
  • PRB will sponsor Kevin again in 2024

 

As others have said, if you don't want to see boats retiring and/or breaking, even the top teams, don't follow the Vendee Globe. Reminder of previous potential winners problems:

  • In 1989, the favourite with the bigger budget (Poupon - Fleury Michon) capsized near South Africa, was rescued by Peyron and gave up;
  • In 1992, Peyron's hull delaminated not long after the start;
  • In 1996, Autissier and Parlier broke rudders, Gerry Roufs died in a storm in second position;
  • In 2000, Parlier lost his mast around NZ, rebuilt a shorter one and finished the race whilst eating seaweed because he had no more food;
  • in 2004, Roland Jourdain broke the hed of the keel;
  • In 2008, Peyron lost his mast, so did Golding, both being in the lead, Yann Elies had to be rescued by the Aussies after he broke his leg, Seb Josse retired sue to muliple issues and Roland Jourdain lost his keel. Le Cam capsized before the Horn. Riou lost his mast after damages occured in the Le Cam rescue (but got redressed as 3rd);
  • In 2012, Guillemot lost his keel 50 nm after the start, Sam Davies lost her mast near Madere, Riou hit a metallic buoy near Brazil, Stamm had all sort of issues and got DSQ for outside assistance in the Aukland islands. Kito de Pavant hit a trawler near Portugal;
  • In 2016, Alex Thomson hit a UUFO (but finished), Riou had keel issue in the Atlantic, Josse broke a foil box, Meilhat broke the head of the keel and Lagraviere a rudder.

This is only for skippers that were seen as potential winners !!

 

I also repost the table below. I have included Alex in it as retired.

VG.png

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https://www.letelegramme.fr/dossiers/le-sauvetage-de-kevin-escoffier-sur-le-vendee-globe/alain-gautier-il-fallait-agir-vite-pour-prendre-eventuellement-des-decisions-02-12-2020-12666357.php?share_auth=c8ad4f0dc66b94c09e739bddc2f66e2d&fbclid=IwAR3xcFADa3uVQfcCxXFbOY-TcEjh0fIPIPNOuk3WIresqLZZzgpsA1RaXss

Vendée Globe. Alain Gautier: "We had to act quickly to eventually take decisions"

Kevin Escoffier's 60-footer, which broke in two, put a chill on the fleet. All the skippers at sea inevitably ask themselves questions, what is more if their boat looks like “PRB” as is the case for Maxime Sorel or Isabelle Joschke. Alain Gautier, Vendée Globe 92-93 winner and team manager of the “MACSF” project, took stock with the architects to make the right decisions.

 

Alain Gautier and Isabelle Joschke. 

You are team manager of Isabelle Joschke's project, which has a boat similar to that of "PRB": it must not have been easy to learn that it had broken in two?

Whether it's the same boat or another Imoca, we are always already trying to find out the facts, to collect as much information as possible. This is what we tried to do with "Corum" which dismasted. And of course, we always try to have as many elements as possible. For “PRB”, of course we approached Vincent Riou yesterday morning (Tuesday morning). He was the one who called me very early on to give me Kevin (Escoffier's) vision of the problem.

 

What then are the steps you take?

I had already made appointments with architects to estimate, understand or at least try to understand, and see what we were risking. Of course it is done quite quickly. As it turns out, we worked very closely with VPLP on our modifications, which Vincent and Kevin did not do at all. Apart from the fact that the boats have the same shape as “V & B Mayenne” - moreover we also had contact with Maxime Sorel's team - they are not built in the same way. They were not built by the same shipyards, they were not built in the same year. Concerning “PRB”, they made changes like us, adding recent foils: 2019 for us, 2018 for them. We did not operate in the same way, we had failed and ultimately, we preferred to approach VPLP. Therefore, the boats are not that close. There are similarities, of course, but Isabelle's boat was built by Safran, with fibers of a certain type and a process of a certain type.

What were your interactions with the architects?

We went around with the architects. There are still more in-depth calculations that are going to be done. But it was necessary to act quickly to eventually make decisions. It is rather reassuring on our side. We saw each other in the morning, they worked all day and we debriefed on Tuesday evening.

Isabelle is at sea, at the beginning of the South Seas. How do we reassure her?

It's a tough job, that's for sure. From my experience, I know how we live at sea. I have known Isabelle for four years, so I explained to her what I was doing, the steps I had taken to give her summaries of all that. And then submit suggestions to him that I have estimated, after the discussions I had with the architects. Of course, I'm as pragmatic as possible and as precise as possible with her, so that she knows things, while being a bit of a psychologist. She must have all the ins and outs. She is still stressed at the entrance to these southern seas. This is something she does not know with boats that are not obvious. She is naturally stressed because she is a very good sailor, but it is obvious that it is not easy. More, she doesn't really like the cold and even though she has a heater on board, she can't use it all the time. We will have to be smart, pragmatic and careful. She has a battle plan for the Deep South, but we know it doesn't always go as planned.

 

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12 minutes ago, Bebmoumoute said:

If you want to be cynical about it, the Kevin Escoffier rescue is an amazing PR event. ROI for PRB is huge, and probably even more than if he finished the race normally say in 5th place.

You coudn't have written it more perfectly:

  • Sudden rush to escape the boat
  • Le Cam rescues him after struggling, bringing back the memory from the 2008 rescue
  • We should have some great images from the French Navy pickup
  • When Le Cam hopefully finishes the race, he is in for a hell of a welcome in Les Sables, probably with the whole of the PRB company there
  • PRB will sponsor Kevin again in 2024

 

As others have said, if you don't want to see boats retiring and/or breaking, even the top teams, don't follow the Vendee Globe. Reminder of previous potential winners problems:

  • In 1989, the favourite with the bigger budget (Poupon - Fleury Michon) capsized near South Africa, was rescued by Peyron and gave up;
  • In 1992, Peyron's hull delaminated not long after the start;
  • In 1996, Autissier and Parlier broke rudders, Gerry Roufs died in a storm in second position;
  • In 2000, Parlier lost his mast around NZ, rebuilt a shorter one and finished the race whilst eating seaweed because he had no more food;
  • in 2004, Roland Jourdain broke the hed of the keel;
  • In 2008, Peyron lost his mast, so did Golding, both being in the lead, Yann Elies had to be rescued by the Aussies after he broke his leg, Seb Josse retired sue to muliple issues and Roland Jourdain lost his keel. Le Cam capsized before the Horn. Riou lost his mast after damages occured in the Le Cam rescue (but got redressed as 3rd);
  • In 2012, Guillemot lost his keel 50 nm after the start, Sam Davies lost her mast near Madere, Riou hit a metallic buoy near Brazil, Stamm had all sort of issues and got DSQ for outside assistance in the Aukland islands. Kito de Pavant hit a trawler near Portugal;
  • In 2016, Alex Thomson hit a UUFO (but finished), Riou had keel issue in the Atlantic, Josse broke a foil box, Meilhat broke the head of the keel and Lagraviere a rudder.

This is only for skippers that were seen as potential winners !!

 

I also repost the table below. I have included Alex in it as retired.

VG.png

Kevin was day 21

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1 hour ago, CARBONINIT said:

It May not be an unprecedented year but it does not look good whatever spin is put on it. The top two boats are out. I feel for the guys n girls who are out. They have kept their side of the bargain only to be let down by yachts that can not do the job for them at full throttle. No doubt there will be more retirements. It's crap.

It's been the way it always has been. 

 

I've snapped a laser rig while leading a race - does that mean the boat wasn't up for the job? 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Icedtea said:

It's been the way it always has been. 

 

I've snapped a laser rig while leading a race - does that mean the boat wasn't up for the job? 

 

 

OH MY GOD WHY ARE YOU SAILING IT ITS DANGEROUS YOU SHOULD STOP RIGHT NOW YOU MIGHT GET HURT THIS ISN'T SAILBOAT RACING!

 

:rolleyes:

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51 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

I'll leave it with this, your words.  This is not about boats "falling apart".  It is about boats getting broken by unknown, external forces/objects.  That's different.  If a mast breaks, a keel drops off because of poor construction, a sail rips because the skipper held it on too long, shit happens.  Same with a skipper who sails into a hole or makes a bad routing call, shit happens and that is part of racing.

What I am talking about is like watching a car race, but randomly holes open in the track and swallows cars.  Yes, these skippers (may) understand and yes they (may) be willing to accept the risk, but I've followed two VGs with foiling and this time the breaks have been greater impacting top sailors and sponsors.  

 

So, if sponsors want to take the chance, if skippers want to take the chance...there it is, but at some point attrition and random take downs will impact the essence of this race.  At least for me.

 

Fair winds.

This isn't a car race. The closest it remotely comes to is the Dakar. Only at night. With no headlights. And only a set of points to honor and no fixed course. No pit crew either. No gas stops. No co-driver.

Oh hey, they break a shitload of vehicles in the Dakar! Would you look at that!

Quote

but I've followed two VGs with foiling and this time the breaks have been greater impacting top sailors and sponsors.  

Yeah, no, no they haven't. "top" sailors dropping out isn't new. You just haven't paid attention long enough. Bebmoumoute posted an entire list of pre-foiling "top sailors" being impacted by breakages.

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The sailors, and their sponsors, very much know how much their race depends on fate... it is the very essence of ocean racing round the world solo non-stop without assistance. And that's what makes it so glorious...

The perils of the sea, and ufos are certainly part of them and always have been, aren't always fair, aren't always predictable, but they are very much part of the race. Why do you think many ocean racing sailors are so superstitious? The experienced ones usually more so than the freshmen. Those offerings to neptune at the equator are not completely "just for show"... they know how much their race depends on fate...

As technologies evolve there are less perils, or they are more predictable. Between the first Vendee Globes when they had only VHF, sometimes BLU, sometimes satellite fax weather a couple of times a day at best, and of course no GPS, satellite surveyed ice limits or anything like that, and what they have today... its two different worlds. They have so much information today that a lot of the unpredictability is gone, at the risk of having a false sense of security... but many perils remain.

If you prefer sanitized racing, in an extremely controlled environment, maybe something like the americas cup is more for you, they race big boats on very short courses in protected harbors and only in a very narrow band of wind conditions (a 15 knot band or something like that) and wave heights (max 2m or something like that). The races last 30 minutes. Everything is extremely controlled and artificial. It is the complete opposite of ocean racing.

The VG is the very essence of ocean racing, its gnarly, its unpredictable... and I love it.

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A lot of comments wondering how L'Occitane would go in the SO. Each time I see one of his videos I am amazed at the difference in motion. Might be his personality, but give the miles he has reeled off in the last few days he looks happy and super relaxed / rested.. a lot less stress on his face that the others.

I am guessing we will see this design influence the future

 

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3 minutes ago, ant1 said:

The sailors, and their sponsors, very much know how much their race depends on fate...

I mean outside of the Vendee look at Armel and BPIX.

Fucking falls apart a couple days into the TJV and BP is like "terrible luck mate, might have pushed it a little hard, here, have another many million dollar trimaran".

35lqnh5xrfb51.png

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25 minutes ago, TPG said:

But that is exactly what this race has always been.

The Vendee, the BOC, the Globe Challenge, etc. It's never been just a sailboat race. It was who could go all the way around alone. Without the boat falling apart or the skipper falling apart.

True. But isnt it supposed to be a more influenced by how the boat is pushed/skippered?

When is just a matter of hitting a UFO looks a bit too much like a gamble, sometimes. Not complaining though, just wondering.

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7 minutes ago, tallyho said:

A lot of comments wondering how L'Occitane would go in the SO. Each time I see one of his videos I am amazed at the difference in motion. Might be his personality, but give the miles he has reeled off in the last few days he looks happy and super relaxed / rested.. a lot less stress on his face that the others.

I am guessing we will see this design influence the future

 

I think the scow is here to stay - it just rides beautifully in class 40s and the theoretically reduced effective waterline doesn't matter much particularly when the boat is foiling and the course doesn't require as much upwind work anyway.  
 

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5 minutes ago, tallyho said:

A lot of comments wondering how L'Occitane would go in the SO. Each time I see one of his videos I am amazed at the difference in motion. Might be his personality, but give the miles he has reeled off in the last few days he looks happy and super relaxed / rested.. a lot less stress on his face that the others.

I am guessing we will see this design influence the future

 

Maybe it's a little too early, he's having better conditions, smaller waves. But I agree: a lower, more stable flight, may be the answer to many structural problems other boats are showing (HB, PRB). And the foils exiting the hull so high above waterline could spare the hull in case of hits with UFOs (Arkea)

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5 minutes ago, tallyho said:

A lot of comments wondering how L'Occitane would go in the SO. Each time I see one of his videos I am amazed at the difference in motion. Might be his personality, but give the miles he has reeled off in the last few days he looks happy and super relaxed / rested.. a lot less stress on his face that the others.

I am guessing we will see this design influence the future

 

Scow design matters not only in hull speed and such but also the comfort of sailor

But Armon has sailed in multihull before so he can push monohull further. I hold crossed fingers that it goes all way through The Three Capes. 

A light windwall. You just stay in the system.

image.thumb.png.dad30b22f0fa59d52a29cd9b3c50c4f1.png

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