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":A 2h18 heure française, le team PRB a été informé du sauvetage de Kevin Escoffier par Jean Le Cam. " Kevin has been rescued.  

Give it a rest chaps. HB was another attempt at evolution, and they should be applauded for spending a fuck ton of money to do so. If you want to try and be innovative you run the risk of breakages al

VG sailors at sea in the rough A translation: JLC: Damien can you receive me ? DS: Yes Jean I can (garbled)... I don't think you're receiving me that well but I receive you very well. JL

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26 minutes ago, TPG said:

So basically every year "does not look good". Got it. Stop watching then. 

Are you suffering a bit of senility? This is a war of attrition. 50% of the fleet finishes. This isn't a bunch of 4 knot shit boxes drifting around the world creating their own ecosystem.

And here I thought it was suppose to be a sailboat race, not Death match 2020 or Mad Max: Water War Zone.  I've said before that most folks like to watch a race, not episodes of Survivor.  I can accept if something goes wrong or a skipper makes a bad decision and I even accept that this is extreme sailing, but taking boats out randomly, boats fans and sponsors want and expect to finish...maybe not so interesting.  The topic of ROI has come up from time to time in both the VOR and VG threads and while sailing super fast is cool, losing a few million because of "something" in the water that damages or destroys a fragile, high performance, not cool.

This is why you don't see F1's running the Baja and why Baja racing does not get the same level of money and interest.  It is at least a consideration that the performance and fragility has started to exceed what the ocean dishes up.

Not my call, but frustrated that three boats I followed are out.  Almost afraid to be supporting Isabelle because I LOVE what she is doing right now.

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2 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

And here I thought it was suppose to be a sailboat race, not Death match 2020 or Mad Max: Water War Zone.  I've said before that most folks like to watch a race, not episodes of Survivor.

But that is exactly what this race has always been.

The Vendee, the BOC, the Globe Challenge, etc. It's never been just a sailboat race. It was who could go all the way around alone. Without the boat falling apart or the skipper falling apart.

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JLC is going quite fast most of the time. I suppose he is pushing a bit harder than some of the others, but did also read that there were improvements made to his boat, but don't remember exactly what.

Everything has been so much about the foils during these last years, so not even sure how to improve hulls with traditional dagger boards anymore

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Just now, TPG said:

But that is exactly what this race has always been.

The Vendee, the BOC, the Globe Challenge, etc. It's never been just a sailboat race. It was who could go all the way around alone. Without the boat falling apart or the skipper falling apart.

I'll leave it with this, your words.  This is not about boats "falling apart".  It is about boats getting broken by unknown, external forces/objects.  That's different.  If a mast breaks, a keel drops off because of poor construction, a sail rips because the skipper held it on too long, shit happens.  Same with a skipper who sails into a hole or makes a bad routing call, shit happens and that is part of racing.

What I am talking about is like watching a car race, but randomly holes open in the track and swallows cars.  Yes, these skippers (may) understand and yes they (may) be willing to accept the risk, but I've followed two VGs with foiling and this time the breaks have been greater impacting top sailors and sponsors.  

 

So, if sponsors want to take the chance, if skippers want to take the chance...there it is, but at some point attrition and random take downs will impact the essence of this race.  At least for me.

 

Fair winds.

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16 hours ago, Zonker said:

Logs are pretty pervasive. I've hit more of them than whales. But my point is you can't just say "most probably it was a whale". It's a total guess as to what he hit. 

Logs are not rare at all and are not as skilled as whales at avoiding boats. Found out after crossing an ocean that the bow had a few more scars on it than before each time. Difference was that our boat shape and construction (Bristol 45.5) not forgetting speed, was not conducive to getting damaged. Once we hit a log and rode up on top of it and had to use a boat hook to push it away. Closest encounter was with a sperm whale and he manoeuvred to pass close astern of us in very calm conditions - we were motoring at the time.

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1 hour ago, Bebmoumoute said:

Today's official live in French:

Sebastien Simon is very down, feels like a very unfair thing happening to him. He wants to carry on.

Only way to repair is to cut the foil in bits from the top to remove. Foil is about 300 kg so cannot be handled in one piece.

Once this is done, it should be possible to repair the hole from inside and outside to stop the water ingress. Repairing from the outside requires calm water conditions, which is not the case at the moment and won't be for at least 24 hours. He has to get closer to land. One bulkhead under the cockpit is also cracked, which is likely to be a consequence of the shock as well (it wasn't cracked the day before).

In addition to all that, one of the rudder seals is torn, so he has to pump water out of there every 2 hours or so for 40 minutes. This is not a nice place to be.

Anchorage would be needed and a way to tilt the boat so you can repair the outside part.

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6 minutes ago, Snowden said:

whilst I applaud F1's commitment to safety, the approach is not entirely compatible with ocean racing

Keep-the-Racetrack-Clean.jpg

We can build semi flying Imoca without keel and any shit. Sort of one hull-maran. Aka Mono-Ac75

Easier than cleaning the whole ocean :lol:

Tracking marine and riverine litter – new recommendations published | EU  Science Hub

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6 minutes ago, TPG said:

Also his account of the boat breaking never had any indication that it hit something, just that it came down the wave, and instead of diving through the wave, folded right up. If it hit something, one would think he would have mentioned a bang or being tossed.

Ok, lets assume that the keel bulb dug into soft whale meat while the bow was cutting into the next wave. Can one distinguish the difference if the boat is folding at the same time? I mean the speed and pitching rotation is absorbed by folding deformations and there is no loud bang that you are expecting during a collision. Or actually you have to look it in this way that usually the damage is avoided because the bow bounces up while going into the wave. But this time the keel was holding it down and the inertia was burring the bow more into the wave. 

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12 minutes ago, jonas a said:

JLC is going quite fast most of the time. I suppose he is pushing a bit harder than some of the others, but did also read that there were improvements made to his boat, but don't remember exactly what.

Everything has been so much about the foils during these last years, so not even sure how to improve hulls with traditional dagger boards anymore

He may be pushing but the others are also throttled back due to a bad sea state. I believe his boat had a new bow back in 2014

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9 hours ago, Rafael said:

There have been several attacks by estimated 4 herds (15 orcas or so) to the rudders of different sailing boats reported in the last months in Costa da Morte NW Spain and Portugal, there has also been even restricted areas for vessels less than 15.mts long by this cause. Scientists are quite confused and have no answer. Different theories are they are playing with them, hunting practice for the youngs, also maybe somekind of possible vengance and also the decreasing numbers in their food chain... One thing is quite certain, they are very very intelligent creatures... In the Gibraltar Strait, resident herds attack the giant bluefin tuna hooked by fisherman (very easy tasty meal) :) Mr D. Attenborough and the BBC explain it much much better than me :)

Sharks and other fish will eat other hooked fish.  Not sure this is really a mark of intelligence per se, although I don’t think there is any dispute that Orcas are quite smart. 

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1 hour ago, ct800 said:

band.png.8489a541d4991de0add758203a632dfb.png

Also have been thinking about the UFO/OFNI topic from a statistical point of view:

1. Let's "narrow down" the band of sea where the fleet is sailing in the SO to an imaginary section between Cape Town and the AEZ. This is ~620 nautical miles. For the sake of comparisons let's convert this to kilometers = ~1.148 kilometers. Multiply by a thousand to get the value in 1.148.000 meters.

2. A IMOCA with both foils extended is ~ at max 14 meters wide.

3. Consider a "worst case" (?) scenario when there are 100 UFOs, capable of causing significant damage to a rudder/foils evenly distributed on this line. This means that between each UFO there is a 11.48 kilometer wide gate to pass through.

5. The chance of hitting such a UFO with the above conditions  is ~ 0,12%, = 1 out of 1000 passing Imocas should hit one. (Rough rounding.)

Now we have 4 boats out of ~24 that are already are south enough with collisions+damage: Boss, LinkedOut, Arkea Paprec, and Initiatives C.

Is my "worst case" value of 100 way underestimated, and there is truly a belt of serious garbage floating around Antartica?

(Also I understand that for whales some have installed these sound pingers in the bulbs to distract them way ahead.)

 

 

I think your analysis is flawed. I suspect your estimate of 100 UFOs is much too high which would reduce the probably of 0.12% quite substantially, say to 0.0001%, but and it is a huge but, that probability exists for every meter along the course. It will be higher in some places , off the mouth of the Amazon where lots of trees are brought by the river and lower, in the Southern Ocean far away from land. I don't think it is possible to come up with any realistic estimate of the risk. The reality is that there are lots of things to hit in any circumnavigation and when you are going very fast with 'wings' extended it only gets worse. JLC may end up doing very well indeed because his probability of damage is much less and he is very skilled and perhaps lucky when needed.

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In regards to the race, Isabelle may soon pass Pedote...I'm sorry correction, she *has* passed Pedote and is still rolling along.  Those 4 in front of her may start looking backwards and it is not a far distance to look.  7 boats all within 150 nm (front to back) and two of the non-foilers.

 

My question to Herman would be, with boats in this reasonable proximity to each other, would the routing be roughly the same so we are looking at positions changing due to seamanship in the small things (sail shape, course, AP or hand steering) or do the polars of each boat impact the routing decisions and position.  From a different angle, when does the skipper step away from routing and sail what the got? 

 

Isabelle seems to be a good spot to angle down towards the ice line and stay in better breeze.

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If you want to be cynical about it, the Kevin Escoffier rescue is an amazing PR event. ROI for PRB is huge, and probably even more than if he finished the race normally say in 5th place.

You coudn't have written it more perfectly:

  • Sudden rush to escape the boat
  • Le Cam rescues him after struggling, bringing back the memory from the 2008 rescue
  • We should have some great images from the French Navy pickup
  • When Le Cam hopefully finishes the race, he is in for a hell of a welcome in Les Sables, probably with the whole of the PRB company there
  • PRB will sponsor Kevin again in 2024

 

As others have said, if you don't want to see boats retiring and/or breaking, even the top teams, don't follow the Vendee Globe. Reminder of previous potential winners problems:

  • In 1989, the favourite with the bigger budget (Poupon - Fleury Michon) capsized near South Africa, was rescued by Peyron and gave up;
  • In 1992, Peyron's hull delaminated not long after the start;
  • In 1996, Autissier and Parlier broke rudders, Gerry Roufs died in a storm in second position;
  • In 2000, Parlier lost his mast around NZ, rebuilt a shorter one and finished the race whilst eating seaweed because he had no more food;
  • in 2004, Roland Jourdain broke the hed of the keel;
  • In 2008, Peyron lost his mast, so did Golding, both being in the lead, Yann Elies had to be rescued by the Aussies after he broke his leg, Seb Josse retired sue to muliple issues and Roland Jourdain lost his keel. Le Cam capsized before the Horn. Riou lost his mast after damages occured in the Le Cam rescue (but got redressed as 3rd);
  • In 2012, Guillemot lost his keel 50 nm after the start, Sam Davies lost her mast near Madere, Riou hit a metallic buoy near Brazil, Stamm had all sort of issues and got DSQ for outside assistance in the Aukland islands. Kito de Pavant hit a trawler near Portugal;
  • In 2016, Alex Thomson hit a UUFO (but finished), Riou had keel issue in the Atlantic, Josse broke a foil box, Meilhat broke the head of the keel and Lagraviere a rudder.

This is only for skippers that were seen as potential winners !!

 

I also repost the table below. I have included Alex in it as retired.

VG.png

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https://www.letelegramme.fr/dossiers/le-sauvetage-de-kevin-escoffier-sur-le-vendee-globe/alain-gautier-il-fallait-agir-vite-pour-prendre-eventuellement-des-decisions-02-12-2020-12666357.php?share_auth=c8ad4f0dc66b94c09e739bddc2f66e2d&fbclid=IwAR3xcFADa3uVQfcCxXFbOY-TcEjh0fIPIPNOuk3WIresqLZZzgpsA1RaXss

Vendée Globe. Alain Gautier: "We had to act quickly to eventually take decisions"

Kevin Escoffier's 60-footer, which broke in two, put a chill on the fleet. All the skippers at sea inevitably ask themselves questions, what is more if their boat looks like “PRB” as is the case for Maxime Sorel or Isabelle Joschke. Alain Gautier, Vendée Globe 92-93 winner and team manager of the “MACSF” project, took stock with the architects to make the right decisions.

 

Alain Gautier and Isabelle Joschke. 

You are team manager of Isabelle Joschke's project, which has a boat similar to that of "PRB": it must not have been easy to learn that it had broken in two?

Whether it's the same boat or another Imoca, we are always already trying to find out the facts, to collect as much information as possible. This is what we tried to do with "Corum" which dismasted. And of course, we always try to have as many elements as possible. For “PRB”, of course we approached Vincent Riou yesterday morning (Tuesday morning). He was the one who called me very early on to give me Kevin (Escoffier's) vision of the problem.

 

What then are the steps you take?

I had already made appointments with architects to estimate, understand or at least try to understand, and see what we were risking. Of course it is done quite quickly. As it turns out, we worked very closely with VPLP on our modifications, which Vincent and Kevin did not do at all. Apart from the fact that the boats have the same shape as “V & B Mayenne” - moreover we also had contact with Maxime Sorel's team - they are not built in the same way. They were not built by the same shipyards, they were not built in the same year. Concerning “PRB”, they made changes like us, adding recent foils: 2019 for us, 2018 for them. We did not operate in the same way, we had failed and ultimately, we preferred to approach VPLP. Therefore, the boats are not that close. There are similarities, of course, but Isabelle's boat was built by Safran, with fibers of a certain type and a process of a certain type.

What were your interactions with the architects?

We went around with the architects. There are still more in-depth calculations that are going to be done. But it was necessary to act quickly to eventually make decisions. It is rather reassuring on our side. We saw each other in the morning, they worked all day and we debriefed on Tuesday evening.

Isabelle is at sea, at the beginning of the South Seas. How do we reassure her?

It's a tough job, that's for sure. From my experience, I know how we live at sea. I have known Isabelle for four years, so I explained to her what I was doing, the steps I had taken to give her summaries of all that. And then submit suggestions to him that I have estimated, after the discussions I had with the architects. Of course, I'm as pragmatic as possible and as precise as possible with her, so that she knows things, while being a bit of a psychologist. She must have all the ins and outs. She is still stressed at the entrance to these southern seas. This is something she does not know with boats that are not obvious. She is naturally stressed because she is a very good sailor, but it is obvious that it is not easy. More, she doesn't really like the cold and even though she has a heater on board, she can't use it all the time. We will have to be smart, pragmatic and careful. She has a battle plan for the Deep South, but we know it doesn't always go as planned.

 

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12 minutes ago, Bebmoumoute said:

If you want to be cynical about it, the Kevin Escoffier rescue is an amazing PR event. ROI for PRB is huge, and probably even more than if he finished the race normally say in 5th place.

You coudn't have written it more perfectly:

  • Sudden rush to escape the boat
  • Le Cam rescues him after struggling, bringing back the memory from the 2008 rescue
  • We should have some great images from the French Navy pickup
  • When Le Cam hopefully finishes the race, he is in for a hell of a welcome in Les Sables, probably with the whole of the PRB company there
  • PRB will sponsor Kevin again in 2024

 

As others have said, if you don't want to see boats retiring and/or breaking, even the top teams, don't follow the Vendee Globe. Reminder of previous potential winners problems:

  • In 1989, the favourite with the bigger budget (Poupon - Fleury Michon) capsized near South Africa, was rescued by Peyron and gave up;
  • In 1992, Peyron's hull delaminated not long after the start;
  • In 1996, Autissier and Parlier broke rudders, Gerry Roufs died in a storm in second position;
  • In 2000, Parlier lost his mast around NZ, rebuilt a shorter one and finished the race whilst eating seaweed because he had no more food;
  • in 2004, Roland Jourdain broke the hed of the keel;
  • In 2008, Peyron lost his mast, so did Golding, both being in the lead, Yann Elies had to be rescued by the Aussies after he broke his leg, Seb Josse retired sue to muliple issues and Roland Jourdain lost his keel. Le Cam capsized before the Horn. Riou lost his mast after damages occured in the Le Cam rescue (but got redressed as 3rd);
  • In 2012, Guillemot lost his keel 50 nm after the start, Sam Davies lost her mast near Madere, Riou hit a metallic buoy near Brazil, Stamm had all sort of issues and got DSQ for outside assistance in the Aukland islands. Kito de Pavant hit a trawler near Portugal;
  • In 2016, Alex Thomson hit a UUFO (but finished), Riou had keel issue in the Atlantic, Josse broke a foil box, Meilhat broke the head of the keel and Lagraviere a rudder.

This is only for skippers that were seen as potential winners !!

 

I also repost the table below. I have included Alex in it as retired.

VG.png

Kevin was day 21

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1 hour ago, CARBONINIT said:

It May not be an unprecedented year but it does not look good whatever spin is put on it. The top two boats are out. I feel for the guys n girls who are out. They have kept their side of the bargain only to be let down by yachts that can not do the job for them at full throttle. No doubt there will be more retirements. It's crap.

It's been the way it always has been. 

 

I've snapped a laser rig while leading a race - does that mean the boat wasn't up for the job? 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Icedtea said:

It's been the way it always has been. 

 

I've snapped a laser rig while leading a race - does that mean the boat wasn't up for the job? 

 

 

OH MY GOD WHY ARE YOU SAILING IT ITS DANGEROUS YOU SHOULD STOP RIGHT NOW YOU MIGHT GET HURT THIS ISN'T SAILBOAT RACING!

 

:rolleyes:

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51 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

I'll leave it with this, your words.  This is not about boats "falling apart".  It is about boats getting broken by unknown, external forces/objects.  That's different.  If a mast breaks, a keel drops off because of poor construction, a sail rips because the skipper held it on too long, shit happens.  Same with a skipper who sails into a hole or makes a bad routing call, shit happens and that is part of racing.

What I am talking about is like watching a car race, but randomly holes open in the track and swallows cars.  Yes, these skippers (may) understand and yes they (may) be willing to accept the risk, but I've followed two VGs with foiling and this time the breaks have been greater impacting top sailors and sponsors.  

 

So, if sponsors want to take the chance, if skippers want to take the chance...there it is, but at some point attrition and random take downs will impact the essence of this race.  At least for me.

 

Fair winds.

This isn't a car race. The closest it remotely comes to is the Dakar. Only at night. With no headlights. And only a set of points to honor and no fixed course. No pit crew either. No gas stops. No co-driver.

Oh hey, they break a shitload of vehicles in the Dakar! Would you look at that!

Quote

but I've followed two VGs with foiling and this time the breaks have been greater impacting top sailors and sponsors.  

Yeah, no, no they haven't. "top" sailors dropping out isn't new. You just haven't paid attention long enough. Bebmoumoute posted an entire list of pre-foiling "top sailors" being impacted by breakages.

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The sailors, and their sponsors, very much know how much their race depends on fate... it is the very essence of ocean racing round the world solo non-stop without assistance. And that's what makes it so glorious...

The perils of the sea, and ufos are certainly part of them and always have been, aren't always fair, aren't always predictable, but they are very much part of the race. Why do you think many ocean racing sailors are so superstitious? The experienced ones usually more so than the freshmen. Those offerings to neptune at the equator are not completely "just for show"... they know how much their race depends on fate...

As technologies evolve there are less perils, or they are more predictable. Between the first Vendee Globes when they had only VHF, sometimes BLU, sometimes satellite fax weather a couple of times a day at best, and of course no GPS, satellite surveyed ice limits or anything like that, and what they have today... its two different worlds. They have so much information today that a lot of the unpredictability is gone, at the risk of having a false sense of security... but many perils remain.

If you prefer sanitized racing, in an extremely controlled environment, maybe something like the americas cup is more for you, they race big boats on very short courses in protected harbors and only in a very narrow band of wind conditions (a 15 knot band or something like that) and wave heights (max 2m or something like that). The races last 30 minutes. Everything is extremely controlled and artificial. It is the complete opposite of ocean racing.

The VG is the very essence of ocean racing, its gnarly, its unpredictable... and I love it.

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A lot of comments wondering how L'Occitane would go in the SO. Each time I see one of his videos I am amazed at the difference in motion. Might be his personality, but give the miles he has reeled off in the last few days he looks happy and super relaxed / rested.. a lot less stress on his face that the others.

I am guessing we will see this design influence the future

 

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3 minutes ago, ant1 said:

The sailors, and their sponsors, very much know how much their race depends on fate...

I mean outside of the Vendee look at Armel and BPIX.

Fucking falls apart a couple days into the TJV and BP is like "terrible luck mate, might have pushed it a little hard, here, have another many million dollar trimaran".

35lqnh5xrfb51.png

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25 minutes ago, TPG said:

But that is exactly what this race has always been.

The Vendee, the BOC, the Globe Challenge, etc. It's never been just a sailboat race. It was who could go all the way around alone. Without the boat falling apart or the skipper falling apart.

True. But isnt it supposed to be a more influenced by how the boat is pushed/skippered?

When is just a matter of hitting a UFO looks a bit too much like a gamble, sometimes. Not complaining though, just wondering.

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7 minutes ago, tallyho said:

A lot of comments wondering how L'Occitane would go in the SO. Each time I see one of his videos I am amazed at the difference in motion. Might be his personality, but give the miles he has reeled off in the last few days he looks happy and super relaxed / rested.. a lot less stress on his face that the others.

I am guessing we will see this design influence the future

 

I think the scow is here to stay - it just rides beautifully in class 40s and the theoretically reduced effective waterline doesn't matter much particularly when the boat is foiling and the course doesn't require as much upwind work anyway.  
 

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5 minutes ago, tallyho said:

A lot of comments wondering how L'Occitane would go in the SO. Each time I see one of his videos I am amazed at the difference in motion. Might be his personality, but give the miles he has reeled off in the last few days he looks happy and super relaxed / rested.. a lot less stress on his face that the others.

I am guessing we will see this design influence the future

 

Maybe it's a little too early, he's having better conditions, smaller waves. But I agree: a lower, more stable flight, may be the answer to many structural problems other boats are showing (HB, PRB). And the foils exiting the hull so high above waterline could spare the hull in case of hits with UFOs (Arkea)

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5 minutes ago, tallyho said:

A lot of comments wondering how L'Occitane would go in the SO. Each time I see one of his videos I am amazed at the difference in motion. Might be his personality, but give the miles he has reeled off in the last few days he looks happy and super relaxed / rested.. a lot less stress on his face that the others.

I am guessing we will see this design influence the future

 

Scow design matters not only in hull speed and such but also the comfort of sailor

But Armon has sailed in multihull before so he can push monohull further. I hold crossed fingers that it goes all way through The Three Capes. 

A light windwall. You just stay in the system.

image.thumb.png.dad30b22f0fa59d52a29cd9b3c50c4f1.png

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Is there any information from the boats with collision avoidance systems which shows if they have had to avoid anything?

Does Sam have such system on board?

I don't know the range of these devices but if you could see how many UFOs have been spotted/avoided, you could get a much better estimate of how much shit there really is in the sea.

 

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2 minutes ago, sully75 said:

I heard Alex say that a lot of the boats have the "same" mast.  Is it literally the same mast?  Copies of each other?

Yes. OD part.

24 minutes ago, Rtfq said:

Is there any information from the boats with collision avoidance systems which shows if they have had to avoid anything?

Does Sam have such system on board?

I don't know the range of these devices but if you could see how many UFOs have been spotted/avoided, you could get a much better estimate of how much shit there really is in the sea.

 

SAM had OSCAR fitted but without the autopilot link software update I believe

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North Sails has decided to enter the foul weather gear market (I'm sure at a significant markup).

Their promo site has a picture of PRB. Nice timing? Ooof.

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54 minutes ago, TPG said:

I mean outside of the Vendee look at Armel and BPIX.

Fucking falls apart a couple days into the TJV and BP is like "terrible luck mate, might have pushed it a little hard, here, have another many million dollar trimaran".

35lqnh5xrfb51.png

This^ BP and all the big permanent teams know the score

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7 minutes ago, TPG said:

North Sails has decided to enter the foul weather gear market (I'm sure at a significant markup).

Their promo site has a picture of PRB. Nice timing? Ooof.

I can see the marketing ad pitch already.

"Gear you don't want to use - but gear you want to have" - North Sails foul weather gear (but a bunch actually Mustang :p)

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On 12/1/2020 at 5:11 PM, astro said:

That would have to be the dumbest post of at least the week.  Congratulations.

Been on a boat going down at night, my comment was nothing about carbon FFS, I know what four seconds is, not enough time to do what some here think he did ... in that time.

well i am so lucky that the only fault of mine that you know and are trying to make public is my dumbness. imagine if you knew it all i would be in a really bad situation.

congrats to you also, for your awesome education and smartness

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3 hours ago, GBH said:

The real problem is that the class has been stuck in the past and trying to keep the existing rules in place  and these never envisaged the development of the foils.   If you want to foil over the world's oceans then  Imoca needs to accept that the game has to be be revised, and not in minor tweaks.

These fat hull shapes are unnecessary when the RM is coming from the foils, but you're stuck with the class rig that is now oversize and heavy as the starting point.  One design keel fin is fair enough, but the rest of the rule drives the design into areas that are undesirable. 

Time to throw it out as far as foilers are concerned and say enough is enough.   I have a sneaking suspicion that the last HBoss would have been a better bet for this race, current crop are 'overfoiled' and see how Le Roi JC is managing - every chance of winning this particular race, and for sure he's likely to be a damn sight quicker back up the Atlantic than many of the new boats.

 

 

It is actually exactly the opposite...

The One Design rig and keel were put in place to be stronger than necessary and no longer be a mechanical fuse; the first thing to go in an overstressed situation. That was way before the foilers...

The reality of the foilers is that they develop DYNAMIC righting moment; the faster you go, the more righting moment you generate. Form stability and lead-in-the keel stability does not increase with boat speed. Foil righting moment increases to the SQUARE of boat speed (read again your mechanical fluids courses on lift and drag formulas...).

It is to the point where they need to reduce sail earlier than they used to. Once you are on the foils, drag reduces so much that you do not need the "ompff" of a big "engine" (sail area); and there is so much righting moment available that if you wanted to max out on that, you would break the rig.

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2 minutes ago, Miffy said:

I can see the marketing ad pitch already.

"Gear you don't want to use - but gear you want to have" - North Sails foul weather gear (but a bunch actually Mustang :p)

His survival suit was Guy Cotten. 

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15 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

SAM had OSCAR fitted but without the autopilot link software update I believe

AFAIK 18 boats with OSCAR and only Boris has the autopilot link.
Boris said somewhere that OSCAR gives maybe 20 seconds warning, not enough for manual intervention

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5 minutes ago, Chasm said:

AFAIK 18 boats with OSCAR and only Boris has the autopilot link.
Boris said somewhere that OSCAR gives maybe 20 seconds warning, not enough for manual intervention

*gee that wave kinda looks like stuff in the water*

*crash gybe*

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Not specific to DMG-Mori or PRB per se but I think the class is headed towards a correction from perhaps an over exuberance of foiling programs. After the success of BP and Hugo Boss in 2016, 4/7 foilers made it home - while the general field was 18/29 - with all the records smashed, the quicker passage, record media following - there was a sense that for programs to succeed, you need to either build a new foiler or retrofit a suitable old boat to be a foiler.

But looking at the specific skipper stated goals (e.g. finish/maintain steady happy progress & provide a media return for their campaign/cause/charity/sponsor) - I can't help but wonder if there's going to be a massive correction going forward where you find the right skipper, invest in the narrative/media/satellite budget, find the most affordable old boat that's robust and not extreme in any parameter and fit it with the best shoreteam/buildup schedule.

JLC is killing it with his charisma of personality, seamanship and the natural narratives that develop from the journey. Compared with some programs that have burned far more coin just on foils alone - it makes you wonder if the ROI would have been better spent on boats and campaigns like JLC, Ari, Pip Hare, or at least like BP did with Cremer. 

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I don't think the actual finish order matters much - it is storytelling & bringing the people along. Apivia is boring in the same way that Armel BP 2016 was boring without the crippled Hugo Boss chase of (will he or won't he).

There are still 28 people racing - but no innate story telling, no breakage drama, no event = no coverage. Arkea Paprec got more coverage the last 24 hours than it did since the start. Louis Burton is doing an outstanding job but there's hardly any coverage. Benjamin, Yannick and Damien are in a media high pressure zone. You'd think a paralympic sailor doing the VG would have more aspirational media coverage but its been... kind of overcome by the drama of other boats.

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Jeremie will maybe get on to the next system with the back markers , he has still a bit to get there ...but it should pull him in first before swinging around.... which will mean he has rejoined the fleet

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Jack_ 

To your point ‘American press/media doesn’t cover sailing etc,etc.’.    Hereabouts we consider web as ‘media’ and I frankly don’t know anyone who shells out $2/day for print.

Sailing Anarchy is the main/only source me, my buds and whoever go to for the scoop.  With 300, 000+ views on this VG thread  my take seems justified.  Dago USA is the center of the sailing press universe.  Shout out Scot and crew for keeping this rolling.

Yours/other vets experience, input  is why it kicks ass.   And it’s free.   Keep it coming.
 

Cheers!

 

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30 minutes ago, blunderfull said:

Jack_ 

To your point ‘American press/media doesn’t cover sailing etc,etc.’.    Hereabouts we consider web as ‘media’ and I frankly don’t know anyone who shells out $2/day for print.

You mean these US print newspapers that get 250 million unique web views per month:lol:

IMG_20201204_025232.jpg

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22 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

You mean these US print newspapers that get 250 million unique web views per month:lol:

IMG_20201204_025232.jpg

Print?    Nah.

Sailing news?   USA?   Times on a national level and that’s not a regular feature anyway.

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52 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

You mean these US print newspapers that get 250 million unique web views per month:lol:

28 minutes ago, blunderfull said:

Print?    Nah.

Sailing news?   USA?   

"Print?  Nah," 

Well maybe you shouldn't have said this or maybe stop drinking. 

"Hereabouts we consider web as ‘media’  and I frankly don’t know anyone who shells out $2/day for  print." .

"Sailing news?  USA ? "  

The problem is NOT US media any medium. Problem is only a handfull of US solo non stop circumnavigators. Only 3 in history of VG.

Yet at that time Mike Plant went in first VG in 89 he was one of only a handful of 3 times around alone non stop circumnavigators. The rest mostly French.

NO competitors ..NO news.

1 hour ago, blunderfull said:

Hereabouts we consider web as ‘media and I frankly don’t know anyone who shells out $2/day for print.

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Charlie Dalin spent alot of time yesterday (I think it was yesterday) saying that he wasn't watching the boats behind him anymore, they were in different wind, etc.  I'm thinking he better start watching for Burton.  Burton has gained almost 100 miles on him in the last day or so, and 300 miles in the 10 days since Burton was the first to dive South.  Burton should be on the same LP with Dalin next time, I'm stoked to see this close of a race for 1st, and I'm hopeful for a couple more lead changes before they are next in the Atlantic. 

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21 hours ago, OPAL said:

I think she works out of REUNION a lot, normally at around 12 knots.

NIVOSE-228746000.jpg

Article about the pick up of Kevin Escofier by the french navy near the islands of Kerguelen. (French)
https://www.20minutes.fr/sport/2921567-20201201-vendee-globe-fregate-francaise-pourrait-recuperer-kevin-escoffier-7-decembre
 

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12 hours ago, Knut Grotzki said:

They have not been sent out - they choose to do so. Not so much different from Formula 1, Idatarod or horse racing.

please don't feed the troll

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2 hours ago, Miffy said:

JLC is killing it with his charisma of personality, seamanship and the natural narratives that develop from the journey. Compared with some programs that have burned far more coin just on foils alone -

Not to mention the fact that he's been sailing the arse off that old Farr banger, Yes we Cam. ;-)

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8 minutes ago, Varan said:

Did somebody say there is free rum at the Christmas party in Cape Town?

20201203_103257.thumb.jpg.355e4687edac1aaef6f25528c0739259.jpg

I noticed that... Simon is pointing straight at CT. Davies has altered her course a few times. I have not seen the extend of the damage on her boat. Is there still hope? 

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4 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Would be great for all the support teams to help each other out and get the boats packed and stable to be shipped back together actually. Esp during times of covid - everyone needs to band together.

Or better yet, salvage pieces to repair one boat, pile everyone in it and race JLC and KE, as a test preview for TOR.

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8 minutes ago, Varan said:

Or better yet, salvage pieces to repair one boat, pile everyone in it and race JLC and KE, as a test preview for TOR.

These are all custom rides, parts from one boat don't fit another etc. Its wishful thinking I suspect, best bet might be for AT to get fixed and race JB/Charal but I doubt he is going 2/3rds of the way around the planet unless he can win the Vendee.

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10 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

I noticed that... Simon is pointing straight at CT. Davies has altered her course a few times. I have not seen the extend of the damage on her boat. Is there still hope? 

Based on the description of the damage on Davies boat, I'm skeptical. She is altering course to keep the keel loads as low as possible.

Simon might be able to repair and get on with the race, but that is a big repair job in the Southern Ocean.

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7 minutes ago, samc99us said:

Based on the description of the damage on Davies boat, I'm skeptical. She is altering course to keep the keel loads as low as possible.

Simon might be able to repair and get on with the race, but that is a big repair job in the Southern Ocean.

this popped upon my you tube feed, not on the official site AFAIK. Sam is speaking French, but the damage is obvious. Game Over methinks.

 

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3 minutes ago, samc99us said:

Based on the description of the damage on Davies boat, I'm skeptical. She is altering course to keep the keel loads as low as possible.

Simon might be able to repair and get on with the race, but that is a big repair job in the Southern Ocean.

Just looked at the description of Davies. Structural damage around the keel... no way that  can be fixed "unassisted"

I am very skeptical also about Arkea Paprec. There might be less structural issues involved since the boat will be presumably sailed without the foil, but there was quite a bit of water all over and substantial damage 

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5 hours ago, TPG said:
Quote

but I've followed two VGs with foiling and this time the breaks have been greater impacting top sailors and sponsors.  

Yeah, no, no they haven't. "top" sailors dropping out isn't new. You just haven't paid attention long enough. Bebmoumoute posted an entire list of pre-foiling "top sailors" being impacted by breakages.

But I've followed the 3 VGs on SA and this time the ratio of clueless fucking noobs is having a greater impact on the thread than ever before.

Edit to add.

Ahhhh, look, one of them is having a little downvote temper tantrum.:P:P

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Seems really unlikely that Sam can continue.
The keel system including box is basically ok, but: "The longitudinal structure around the keelbox is all cracked."

Maybe someone can translate what she said in the video:

 

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I love following this race but...

Maybe the IMOCA just isn't the right platform for foiling across oceans.

During the pre-foiling days it was a test of who could go farthest south for big wind and waves! Now it seems the ice limits aren't really limits anymore as the boats are so fast in moderate breeze that they don't need to go that far south.

However, foiling at 25+ and flying off 'small' 15-20 foot waves seems to be asking for it...

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5 minutes ago, Liquid said:

I love following this race but...

Maybe the IMOCA just isn't the right platform for foiling across oceans.

During the pre-foiling days it was a test of who could go farthest south for big wind and waves! Now it seems the ice limits aren't really limits anymore as the boats are so fast in moderate breeze that they don't need to go that far south.

However, foiling at 25+ and flying off 'small' 15-20 foot waves seems to be asking for it...

I believe it has little to do with IMOCA, but I would rather question if foiling is right for crossing oceans. That having been said, the last edition was won by a foiler...

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Foiling and other edgy development need better trials before vaccinated boats get to try the Capes.

Looking forward to more Arctic trials rather than TJV RdR cruises, and a motion in the IMOCA class that VG boats have developed herd immunity. 

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16 minutes ago, Liquid said:

I love following this race but...

Maybe the IMOCA just isn't the right platform for foiling across oceans.

During the pre-foiling days it was a test of who could go farthest south for big wind and waves! Now it seems the ice limits aren't really limits anymore as the boats are so fast in moderate breeze that they don't need to go that far south.

However, foiling at 25+ and flying off 'small' 15-20 foot waves seems to be asking for it...

2016: 4/7 foilers made it home; the general field was 18/29.

2020: 28 are still racing. Amongst the field currently in the top 10; 7 are foilers. And we're just starting the southern ocean leg where the foiling boats find good weather and sea state and get away from the non-foiling boats. 

The statistics simply don't support the inference that foiling boats are bad for Vendee Globe - what it does show is, to run a good foiling boat/new innovation campaign, you need lots of funding, lots of time to work out the kinds & the platform is less forgiving of uff-da. 

The folks saying "oh no foilers are not gonna make it" - you'll be singing the tune that "oh no the slower non-foiling boats are gonna get swept up by a massive low pressure/horrible sea state because they can't sustain 500 nm days to get away.

Edit - I alluded to there is probably going to be a correction of campaign funding/strategy next cycle - because we're seeing that you don't need a foiler/new boat to have good ROI for the sponsor/communication strategy - but you need to make the skipper/find the right skipper to buy in on the media and narrative and have a good personality for it and take people along for the ride. So if you're spending 2 million dollars on multiple pairs of new foils for a new boat vs. 2 million on an old boat, making it the most reliable simple media platform w/ an engaging skipper, I pick the engaging skipper over the Figaro champion with as much personality as an old baguette. 

Kojiro's campaign last edition was more captivating than his current - and his current boat is less forgiving of technical troubles. Cremer is sailing a quiet race and her daily updates have been steadily improving - like she's finding her routine and storytelling voice again. JLC has been the boss and in a field of new boat disappointments, he's been showing it isn't about the boat. I kind of like that. 


 

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1 minute ago, Corryvreckan said:

In a way, it was almost unfortunate that the weather was so benign for the Vendee Arctique.  I think they had wanted that race to be more of a testing ground before heading south.

Run the route more often over the Grand Banks ;) 

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