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Mmmmmm ....apart from an obtuse nibble from stief.. looks like I need to try some 'edgy'  bait and recast......

.....WARNING!!!

2114099142_images-2020-12-14T152940_144.jpeg.589a63a31e53e6a79406ab10b1c1e4d4.jpeg

7 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:
10 hours ago, staysail said:

... Shame  that Alex didn't get his rudder fixed and carry on round too!

No rudder evidence, no interviews, no supporting the race at all or those in it, no nothing. Just walked away.

Piss poor.

7 hours ago, stief said:

Is there a lawyer in the room? ;)

 

"No rudder evidence, no interviews, no supporting the race at all or those in it, no nothing. Just walked away.

Piss poor."

Alex ceased racing and began the journey to Cape Town on 28th November.

There was no public communication of note for the next 6 days other than the intial team statement on 27 November. 

This was the LAST public statement made by Alex on 4 December. Short and sweet and 10 days ago, now over 2 weeks since the rudder incident and withdrawal. Social Media the same.

So why OR 'why not' any further engagement?

- There is probably not a more voracious communicator than Alex during this edition, which interestingly is at variance to previous outings. For instance not just vids but his biometric dashboard could tell you when he was taking a dump, sleeping or reefing.

- His structural repairs preceding the rudder were accompanied with tutorials never seen before. This an example with materials laid out on deck and methodology explained. Buggered and with a small window of time to effect repair this communication aspect was quite remarkable.

- Still feeling down after over 2 weeks. I'm sure, BUT as Sam Davies explained, from time of her incident and passage time to Cape Town a lot of that grief had evaporated. Sam afterall a one out three finisher so this a heavy load to unload. 

- Enough time for Sam in fact to decide to fix a race ending compromised keel box and leaves today as no longer a competitor, but still a finisher. This in the tradition of a race where that alone that is lauded as an achievement.

-  With Alex certainly incurring race ending damage, but it appears rudder only damage, quickly fixed and he could have done a Sam. This was never contemplated. Maybe his last words before leaving are instructive there. 

“Third, second…there’s only really one place to go, isn’t there?” 

- Another comparison is Kevin where after a torturous journey to make it to western civilization, the first thing he does arriving in France is jump on national television. 

- As with all favourites his retirement generated a plethora of good wishes, not just from past and present competitors but also the general public. With that level of support comes a certain level of appreciation and reciprocation, greater than one, one line statement.

So a lot there BUT ALL at odds with Alex  going incommunicado post the incident and more so after arrival in Cape Town.

_________________

That only leaves us with some idle speculation.

He WOULD like to be giving interviews, appearing on Vendee Live via zoom, supporting the race, fellow competitors and particularly fellow Britons.

Similiarly as a thank you to his many supporters.

Likewise even though out. ROI for his main sponsors HB and Mercedes who market Alex Thompson/VG very strongly in their promotional material, at point of sale and incl in employee programs.

However;

1. His two main sponsors see no ROI and in fact maybe want it to go away ASAP. For instance a strong negative correlation between Alex/HB's withdrawal and their products marketed with high QA and reliability values as expected with their respective price points. Alex's DNF this time reached a tipping point for them? 

Suits with sleeves that fall off or cars that stop on the motorway before reaching their destination aren't a good subliminal message?

OR

2. Alex has made no statement about the rudder, only the team statement on 27 November. There being not even a photo of the damaged rudder and it being deliberately taken off pre docking could get those with high gain conspiracy antenna buzzing. 

Was the rudder really damaged? Was it used as a prop to withdraw to disguise the fact the race had already ended with the bow fix not cutting the mustard?

3. This raises the prospect of some conflict between Alex and his team. The rudder story supported by one and not the other? Maybe a spare rudder was contemplated to be on board? One or the other decided to ditch that redundancy plan?

OR

4. Is it as simple as his closing last words.

“Right now, I’m looking forward to a shower, some sleep and getting home to my wife and my beautiful children”.

He is really enjoying that shower, has gone all wrinkly after 10 days and hasn't jumped out yet??

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":A 2h18 heure française, le team PRB a été informé du sauvetage de Kevin Escoffier par Jean Le Cam. " Kevin has been rescued.  

Give it a rest chaps. HB was another attempt at evolution, and they should be applauded for spending a fuck ton of money to do so. If you want to try and be innovative you run the risk of breakages al

VG sailors at sea in the rough A translation: JLC: Damien can you receive me ? DS: Yes Jean I can (garbled)... I don't think you're receiving me that well but I receive you very well. JL

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10 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

_________________

That only leaves us with some idle speculation.

He WOULD like to be giving interviews, appearing on Vendee Live via zoom, supporting the race, fellow competitors and particularly fellow Britons.

Similiarly as a thank you to his many supporters.

Likewise even though out. ROI for his main sponsors HB and Mercedes who market Alex Thompson/VG very strongly in their promotional material, at point of sale and incl in employee programs.

However;

1. His two main sponsors see no ROI and in fact maybe want it to go away ASAP. For instance a strong negative correlation between Alex/HB's withdrawal and their products marketed with high QA and reliability values as expected with their respective price points. Alex's DNF this time reached a tipping point for them? 

Suits with sleeves that fall off or cars that stop on the motorway before reaching their destination aren't a good subliminal message?

OR

2. Alex has made no statement about the rudder, only the team statement on 27 November. There being not even a photo of the damaged rudder and it being deliberately taken off pre docking could get those with high gain conspiracy antenna buzzing. 

Was the rudder really damaged? Was it used as a prop to withdraw to disguise the fact the race had already ended with the bow fix not cutting the mustard?

3. This raises the prospect of some conflict between Alex and his team. The rudder story supported by one and not the other? Maybe a spare rudder was contemplated to be on board? One or the other decided to ditch that redundancy plan?

OR

4. Is it as simple as his closing last words.

“Right now, I’m looking forward to a shower, some sleep and getting home to my wife and my beautiful children”.

He is really enjoying that shower, has gone all wrinkly after 10 days and hasn't jumped out yet??

I'll nibble:

1. That is for certain.

2. This is an interesting conspiracy theory. I read one post on this thread that the rudder was removed in Granger bay by a "support crew". Granger Bay is visible on webcams. There were even a few shots posted in that general area on this thread.. no support crew vessel in sight. The posts were coming in more or less in real time and I didn't notice a pause where said action could have occurred. No signs of a support crew vessel on approach to docking either.  - I don't think this one is an option.  Besides this; from the reports the damage was most likely to the linkage or the rudder as wacked in a way that it jammed in some way..... as he had to "disconnect the linkage" to regain control on a single rudder. 

4. Could well be this. Gutted, no confidence in the boat, more damage (possible from fishing gear, maybe another structural failure) .. I'd have binned it too... However there is no shame in admitting this unless 1. applies.......

 

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59 minutes ago, littlechay said:
1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

_________________

That only leaves us with some idle speculation.

He WOULD like to be giving interviews, appearing on Vendee Live via zoom, supporting the race, fellow competitors and particularly fellow Britons.

Similiarly as a thank you to his many supporters.

Likewise even though out. ROI for his main sponsors HB and Mercedes who market Alex Thompson / VG very strongly in their promotional material, at point of sale and incl in employee programs.

However;

1. His two main sponsors see no ROI and in fact maybe want it to go away ASAP . For instance a strong negative correlation between Alex / HB's withdrawal and their products marketed with high QA and reliability values as expected with their respective price points. Alex's DNF this time reached a tipping point for them? 

Suits with sleeves that fall off or cars that stop on the motorway before reaching their destination aren't a good subliminal message?

GOLD

2. Alex has made no statement about the rudder, only the team statement on 27 November. There being not even a photo of the damaged rudder and it being deliberately taken off pre docking could get those with high gain conspiracy antenna buzzing. 

Was the rudder really damaged? Was it used as a prop to withdraw to disguise the fact the race had already ended with the bow fix not cutting the mustard?

3. This raises the prospect of some conflict between Alex and his team. The rudder story supported by one and not the other? Maybe a spare rudder was contemplated to be on board? One or the other decided to ditch that redundancy plan?

GOLD

4. I s it as simple as his closing last words.

“Right now, I'm looking forward to a shower, some sleep and getting home to my wife and my beautiful children”.

He is really enjoying that shower, has gone all wrinkly after 10 days and hasn't jumped out yet ??

I'll nibble:

1. That is for sure.

2. This is an interesting conspiracy theory. I read one post on this thread that the rudder was removed in Granger bay by a "support crew". Granger Bay is visible on webcams. There were even a few shots posted in that general area on this thread .. no support crew vessel in sight. The posts were coming in more or less in real time and I didn't notice a pause where said action could have occurred. No signs of a support crew vessel on approach to docking either. - I don't think this one is an option. Besides this; from the reports the damage was most likely to the linkage or the rudder as wacked in a way that it jammed in some way ..... as he had to "disconnect the linkage" to regain control on a single rudder. 

4. Could well be this. Gutted, no confidence in the boat, more damage (possible from fishing gear, maybe another structural failure) .. I'd have binned it too ... However there is no shame in admitting this unless 1. applies ..... ..

More than a nibble. :P

HOW the rudder was removed probably irrelevant. It gone gonski upon docking.  Someone removed it so it is away from prying eyes.

More the fact that other than team statement on the 27th, nothing from Alex in particular or anyone on the subject.

Rudder treated like a drunk uncle at a wedding.

Maybe throw some burley in the water. 

His is last words before the start. 

“Third, second… there's only really one place to go, isn't there?” 

For any sport should you really say that??

For the VG with its history of attrition more so to keep that as a 'thought' only, NOT build it as a wider expectation.

If things go to shit, the fall then hurts even more for competitor and anyone associated.

Maybe that the genisus to the current media 'blackout' then combined with other influences?

PS. Where you read 'GOLD' should be 'OR'. Auto correct shit. 

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23 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

More than a nibble. :P

HOW the rudder was removed probably irrelevant. It gone gonski upon docking.  Someone removed it so it is away from prying eyes.

More the fact that other than team statement on the 27th, nothing from Alex in particular or anyone on the subject.

Rudder treated like a drunk uncle at a wedding.

Maybe throw some burley in the water. 

His is last words before the start. 

“Third, second… there's only really one place to go, isn't there?” 

For any sport should you really say that??

For the VG with its history of attrition more so to keep that as a 'thought' only, NOT build it as a wider expectation.

If things go to shit, the fall then hurts even more for competitor and anyone associated.

Maybe that the genisus to the current media 'blackout' then combined with other influences?

PS. Where you read 'GOLD' should be 'OR'. Auto correct shit. 

Jérémie looks pretty down as well and he was there only for the victory, dont know if there is that much ROI for Charal at the moment.

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11 minutes ago, cortosam said:

Jérémie looks pretty down as well and he was there only for the victory, dont know if there is that much ROI for Charal at the moment.

Big difference ..Jeremie restarted thousands of miles behind victory foregone. He kept his head down on expectations. Alex didn't and could have done a Sam in quick time. He went home.

You discount personel following of skippers in France independent of leaderboard. Charal a domestic not international product they are still getting a return. When he starts rolling over the top of others that ROI goes up. 

Jerem is not there to fuck spiders. 

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I have not seen a second rudder blade on some of the vids of Alex riding „home“ to Capetown. I remember the mostly upright boat and only one blade to be seen. With that dominant color code it should have been visible. 

My theory is, there are lawyers in the room. Speculations here have often gone havoc and thus to be avoided.

Sponsors walked away immediately.

The new BOSS foul weather collection will be dumped.

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I would give AT & ATR some slack as I reckon all sorts will be going on behind the scenes that requires a degree of space and radio silence.

HB as a sponsor will almost certainly be reviewing their position. Not just because AT didnt finish, but because COVID will have severely hit their business and need to review expenditure.

Whatever the cause of the rudder issue, someone will be held under the cosh for this and other breakages - someone needs to be held accountable. So a degree of finger pointing will be going on behind the scenes I am sure. Hardly want to go public with that. Lawyers will be ambulance chasing

Alex will be destroyed mentally. This has been his lifes work. He just needs time and space to repair himself and consider his next steps. 

Yes, I appreciate he is normally very social and upbeat, but the guy has seen his lifes dream and goal come to a horrible (and a little humuliating) end. Where he goes from here will require big cojones ...

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12 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Big difference ..Jeremie restarted thousands of miles behind victory foregone. He kept his head down on expectations. Alex could have done a Sam in quick time. He went home.

You discount personel following of skippers in France independent of leaderboard. Charal a domestic not international product they are still getting a return. When he starts rolling over the top of others that ROI goes up. 

Agree wholeheartedly Jack. Psychologically for the skippers getting back all the way round to Les Sable d'Olonne must be important if they can possibly do it. Jeremie was in a dark place before his re-start. The French fans follow the adventure just as much as the race results.

I sure opened up a good can of worms with this one though!
Contrast the bright positive spin of the Initiatives campaign with the Hugo Boss "abort mission".

My idle speculation? First impression, obvious to all from the interior structural damage which IMHO was far more serious that it would have appeared to a layman, was that the HB boat was simply nowhere near strong enough, and it was very badly damaged! Simple logic. If a collision can be discounted (and Alex didn't mention one) If the boat had been strong enough for the sailing loads it encountered it wouldn't have broken.

That said, no fast Imoca is bulletproof. If sailed too hard for the prevailing environmental conditions any of them can be broken, so the question reduces to either 1) the boat was too weak to compete in and finish a VG race, or 2) the boat was sailed too hard. Maybe an argument, fitness for purpose versus operator error, is going on behind closed doors and accounts for the deafening silence?
A third factor which could be under consideration is the design and effectiveness of the structural stress/strain monitoring systems and the degree of reliance on them to safeguard the structure from overload. i.e. one way or another a system malfunction?

For what its worth, after first seeing the photos of the structural damage, regardless of Alex's much publicised repair efforts, I never expected the boat to sail beyond Cape Town and am not at all surprised not to have seen any photos of a damaged rudder or mechanism.  I am also not surprised that Alex did not get the boat repaired in Cape Town and complete his RTW because I think a safe repair for the boat structure would have taken far too long, but that is not what Alex's project has said.

 

 

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Weather update

So the three musketeers in front stay ahead of the rest due to the foiling conditions with a relatively good sea state and no beating. Although the three non-foilers behind them won't give up. In the coming days the expanding HP zone west of Cape Leeuwin will expand and move east between Australia and the AEZ. And on Wednesday projected below Tasmania. Pic #4 has the projected Wednesday 00 UTC situation with projection of Dalin at the red arrow hugging the AEZ and isolines for MSLP according to Australia BOM. So light winds prevail, comfortable ("bumpy") rides expected. Most wind and pressure is in the south, so hugging the AEZ can be expected. The fleet behind the three musketeers are more to the west, and will get impacted sooner, and possibly longer.

On Wednesday a LP forming at the east coast of Australia is projected, moving south, and later SE towards New Zealand. For now, it is projected to rotate over the new virtual waypoint Campbell Island, providing nice winds for the top-3. Something to watch in the coming days. That Island was passed to the north in the last round. And is 130 nm to the north of the AEZ.

Ruyant has a 55/45 port-starboard route projected, and he will be slower on his port bow actually than projected here. So Bestaven could overtake Ruyant if foiling conditions persist in the coming days.

Unfortunately, OpenCPN does not allow me to route through 46 degrees latitude. I can route above, or below. So until the boats are below that line I will route the top-3. It's a bug that only once in a couple of years pop-up when I route the Ocean Race or TJV or VG, as not a lot of OpenCPN users will go sailing below 46 latitude. I don't have plans yet, the Nordmann X-mass tree is now up here in the house :D.

 

routing 131220.png

ECWMF 131220.jpg

routing table 131220.png

MSLP 0000 UTC Wednesday 16th.jpg

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23 minutes ago, ttc546 said:

I would give AT & ATR some slack as I reckon all sorts will be going on behind the scenes that requires a degree of space and radio silence .

How can you cut slack when no transparency, buckets of questions and no answers? It is something in public domain not a private tour around the orange.

That silence brings on unavoidable speculation you have to live with like it or not.

23 minutes ago, ttc546 said:

Whatever the cause of the rudder issue, someone will be held under the cosh for this and other breakages - someone needs to be held accountable.

Held accountable for what? Did linkage break, if so repairable at sea, enough materials left ??

Others have fixed far greater incl even himself just beforehand and continued sucessfully. It is nearly a race certainty for many all knowing that before starting. He knew that hence the materials he took with him. 

See above re speculation. 

23 minutes ago, ttc546 said:

Alex will be destroyed mentally. . This has been his lifes work. He just needs time and space to repair himself and consider his next steps

Maybe but we are NOT talking about his NEXT steps. Communication dead zone for 2 weeks on LAST step being this race.  

 

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14 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

How can you cut slack when no transparency, buckets of questions and no answers? That brings on unavoidable speculation you have live with like it or not.

Did it break, if so repairable at sea, enough materials left ?? Others have fixed far greater incl even himself just beforehand and continued sucessfully. It is nearly a race certainty for many all knowing that before starting.

See above re speculation. 

Maybe but we are NOT talking about his NEXT steps. Communication dead zone for 2 weeks on last step being this race.  

 

If HB had been easily repairable with a short enough turnaround to enable a Southern Ocean battering, dont you think it would have been done? Though, having said that, AT may have lost a bit of confidence in the boat too. ;-)

I get that you want answers, and I am sure their PR WANT to give you answers - but if you know how corporates work, then you know that they will give out when they have something to say about the premature ending of a multi-million quid campaign, that doesnt cause the boatbuilders, designers, engineers, 3rd parties, sponsors lawyers to reach for the phone.

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22 minutes ago, ttc546 said:

If HB had been easily repairable with a short enough turnaround to enable a Southern Ocean battering, dont you think it would have been done? Though, having said that, AT may have lost a bit of confidence in the boat too. ;-)

I get that you want answers, and I am sure their PR WANT to give you answers - but if you know how corporates work, then you know that they will give out when they have something to say about the premature ending of a multi-million quid campaign, that doesnt cause the boatbuilders, designers, engineers, 3rd parties, sponsors lawyers to reach for the phone.

One can have great sympathy for Alex, I do for one, but the Vendee Globe is a highly public event which is surely why HB goes in for it in the first place. Its also well known that maybe half of the fleet can expect major problems. No other project has gone totally silent. The impression this makes, in contrast with all the others who have suffered major setbacks, is that HB can't deal with it!

That for sure makes the HB project now look like "a pretty poor show"!

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43 minutes ago, ttc546 said:

If HB had been easily repairable with a short enough turnaround to enable a Southern Ocean battering, dont you think it would have been done?

No idea.

Why? 

Well you suggested one reason. His head space turned to mush.

1 hour ago, ttc546 said:

Alex will be destroyed mentally.

Why destroyed mentally?

Maybe pre race expectations not realistic and compounded by making them public?

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

His is last words before the start

“Third, second… there's only really one place to go, isn't there?” 

For any sport should you really say that??

For the VG with its history of attrition more so to keep that as a 'thought' only, NOT build it as a wider expectation.

If things go to shit, the fall then hurts even more for competitor and anyone associated.

And

43 minutes ago, ttc546 said:

I get that you want answers, and I am sure their PR WANT to give you answers -

Absolutely.

49 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

It is something in public domain not a private tour around the orange.

AT: You want answers?

JS : I think I'm entitled to.

AT: You want answers?

JS : I WANT THE TRUTH!

AT: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

I have a greater responsibility than you  could possibly fathom. You weep for Kevin and Sam and you curse UFO's. You have that  luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know that a DNF, while tragic, probably saves lives.  And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, ' saves lives'. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at the yacht club bar, you want me to retire.

JS: On 27 November your team said your starboard rudder linkage turned to custard.

AT: I did the job I...

JS: [interupts]  Did you order your team to bullshit?

AT: "You're God damn right I did!"

1152490919_giphy(26).gif.00fe01e74b1caca6860b664116fc093b (1).gif

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7 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

No idea.

Why? 

Well you suggested one reason. His head space turned to mush.

Why destroyed mentally?

Maybe pre race expectations not realistic and compounded by making them public?

And

Absolutely.

AT: You want answers?

JS: I think I'm entitled to.

AT: You want answers?

JS: I WANT THE TRUTH!

AT: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Kevin and Sam and you curse UFO's. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know that a DNF, while tragic, probably saves lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, 'saves lives'. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at the yacht club bar, you want me to retire.

JS : On  27 November your team said your starboard rudder linkage turned to custard.

AT: I did the job I ...

JS: [interupts] Did you order your team to bullshit?

AT: "You're God damn right I did!"

1152490919_giphy (26) .gif.00fe01e74b1caca6860b664116fc093b (1) .gif

You have too much time on your hands ;-) 

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3 hours ago, littlechay said:

There were even a few shots posted in that general area on this thread.. no support crew vessel in sight.

There are 2 boats that look like ribs in this shot:

image.thumb.png.06fd5e79b585566265ea6e5c717767fb.png

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11 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

No rudder evidence, no interviews, no supporting the race at all or those in it, no nothing. Just walked away.

Piss poor.

Busy filing legal actions against engineers and the rudder builders?

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Personally. I'm giving Alex the benefit of the doubt. He was in this race to win it, brand new super charged boat, all that time energy and effort getting to the start line, and to see it go up in smoke? Devastating. I can't even begin to imagine what he's going through right now. I too might want to stay out of the public eye a bit and enjoy Christmas with my family.

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24 minutes ago, staysail said:

Why are you posting here if you have nothing to say?

 

Perhaps you hve humor bypass this morning? Chill man.  : D   

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22 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

There are 2 boats that look like ribs in this shot:

image.thumb.png.06fd5e79b585566265ea6e5c717767fb.png

Good find... I can't work out where it is take from so can't say where it is exactly though. 

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3 minutes ago, littlechay said:

Good find... I can't work out where it is take from so can't say where it is exactly though. 

Hopefully Cape Town at least :lol::lol:

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4 minutes ago, littlechay said:

Is there a photo of the stern of Hugo Boss in Cape Town showing a missing rudder.?

On 12/4/2020 at 12:50 PM, TPG said:

129775111_4013929805300957_4205116382829737644_o.thumb.jpg.b3c0ae560c8dc0f3301ce41e8605a943.jpg

 

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51 minutes ago, mad said:

Busy filing legal actions against engineers and the rudder builders?

Did you note the disclaimer from the team regarding 'sailing conservatively' through Theta, that's prepping for lawyers re structures/engineering/builder when the reality is that he's learnt nothing about looking after the boat and playing a long game.  You can be sure the lawyers once again will be rubbing their paws at the thought of more lucrative work.  Mind you, having lost the case re the broken foils from last time they might have second thoughts.

One thing for sure, they'll have to be doing a bit of explaining to the sponsors.

 

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As many have pointed out, AT is good for the race.  He is a great sailor, great communicator, brought amazing cutting-edge boats to the last two editions, and broadens the viewership of the race internationally.  For someone who has made winning this race THE goal of his career - to the point where he effectively said he did not care too much about losing the RdR  because he was focusing on the VG - it would be nice for him to spend more time supporting the race now that he is out.  As Jack points out, that could simply be appearances on the Live show and more social media outreach.  (I'm not sure he would even need him to clear up what happened to his boat.  Making a public appearance and talking about the race as it currently stands, his thoughts on what will happen, etc. would go a long way.)  In any event, I sincerely hope he figures out what he needs to, makes some appearances on the Live show or other shows, and is back in the next edition stronger than ever.  

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7 minutes ago, GBH said:

Did you note the disclaimer from the team regarding 'sailing conservatively' through Theta, that's prepping for lawyers re structures / engineering / builder when the reality is that he's learnt nothing about looking after the boat and playing a long game. You can be sure the lawyers once again will be rubbing their paws at the thought of more lucrative work. Mind you, having lost the case re the broken foils from last time they might have second thoughts.

One thing for sure, they'll have to be doing a bit of explaining to the sponsors.

 

Didn't we have a conversation about this a while ago ?? ;)

I wouldn't be looking at the builder of the boat in this, more the structures/engineering team.:ph34r:

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As for Alex and the rudder:

5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mmmmmm ....apart from an obtuse nibble from stief

Sigh. Thought it was clear since Despo got it. Maybe you didn't see the "foiled thread?" (the editor posted it last week about the lawsuit over ATR's foils). 

ATR's silence over the rudder made sense if the case could be headed to court, like the ATR's case over the V1and V2 foils.

Anyway, sorry for contributing to the misunderstanding. I blame the Christmas preps, the wine, the dinner, and trying to keep up on the bloody iPad until I got my laptop back ;)

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1 minute ago, WLIS Jibing said:

As many have pointed out, AT is good for the race.  He is a great sailor, great communicator, brought amazing cutting-edge boats to the last two editions, and broadens the viewership of the race internationally.  For someone who has made winning this race THE goal of his career - to the point where he effectively said he did not care too much about losing the RdR  because he was focusing on the VG - it would be nice for him to spend more time supporting the race now that he is out.  As Jack points out, that could simply be appearances on the Live show and more social media outreach.  (I'm not sure he would even need him to clear up what happened to his boat.  Making a public appearance and talking about the race as it currently stands, his thoughts on what will happen, etc. would go a long way.)  In any event, I sincerely hope he figures out what he needs to, makes some appearances on the Live show or other shows, and is back in the next edition stronger than ever.  

I think that is quite natural honestly, given the disappointment, regardless of who's fault it was. If there even is someone to blame, could have been bad luck all together. Jeremie didn't make appearances after his damage, except the announcement of the damage and later the announcement that he will be back. Now he still is shattered as you can see in the few videos he has done recently. Probably no one in the team knows for now how things are going to continue and therefore they don't want to create a lot of noise, until things become more clear. I think that's all.

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1 minute ago, cortosam said:
8 minutes ago, mad said:

Didn't we have a conversation about this a while ago?? ;)

Ah ah ah, i kindda remind having this discussion :)

Well it wasn't with me, that's for sure.

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And if anyone thinks the speculation over ATR's rudder is bad, check out the wilder speculation over the redress expected Wednesday. It's been hilarious: far too many tweets in FR to link. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, despacio avenue said:

This massive glacier is apparently shedding icebergs on its way towards South Georgia. There is a good article in Thursday’s WaPost about the potential for ecological disaster if is runs aground near the island, thereby cutting off the food source of the many marine life that depend on krill for food, and making it very difficult for the penguins that are nesting on the island  to go to sea, having to potentially go around a block of ice the size of Rhode Island. The only time I was in that area the sea was so rough and it was so windy we had to abandon getting close to the island; the ship was heeled over abs there were some very sizable ice burgs moving off in the distance. I have been in some rough waters up here going down to Kodak and out the Aleutian chain, but that was humbling. It continued on to the Falklands. 

We were on South Georgia, on the opposite side from this iceberg, in remarkably good conditions. We visited one colony of King Penguins that had between 80,000 and 300,000 birds (depending on which expert was talking). From offshore it looked like the surface of the land was vibrating there were so many birds so close together. Don't know what the populations are like on the SW side but I assume similar.

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There's this thing in the SA Forums, where a bunch of keyboard jockey's decide they are 'entitled' to transparency and information.  The level of shock and vitriol that results when a private citizen couldn't give a stuff for their entitlement is quite amusing.

What's also amusing is it happens on a fairly regular basis, and the language, arguments and conspiracy theories are entirely transferable from one (supposed) controversy to another.  Same shit, different event.

In one breath I want to rail against it, in the next it kinda feels like home!?

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Live up--with Merf Owen, IMOCA designer (Arnaud Boissières' foiled Acciona; Didac Costa's One Planet One Ocean; Miranda Merron's Campagne de France and Ari Huusela's STARK). Other 3 non-foilers. No surprise that he points out the advantages of 'classics' and need to move forward with foils and rudders.

 

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1 hour ago, stief said:
6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mmmmmm ....apart from an obtuse nibble from stief

Sigh. Thought it was clear since Despo got it. Maybe you didn't see the "foiled thread?" (the editor posted it last week about the lawsuit over ATR's foils). 

ATR's silence over the rudder made sense if the case could be headed to court, like the ATR's case over the V1and V2 foils.

That relates to a foil failure over 4 years ago on a different boat stief. 

No nexus between those foils, that company or this boat. 

If no one talks about a race anymore because something breaks I'm looking for another sport. 

If this is Thomson excuse for going dark he just swallowed 20 tonne of stupid.

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4 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:
1 hour ago, stief said:
6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mmmmmm ....apart from an obtuse nibble from stief

Sigh. Thought it was clear since Despo got it. Maybe you didn't see the "foiled thread?" (the editor posted it last week about the lawsuit over ATR's foils). 

That relates to a foil failure over 4 years ago on a different boat stief. 

No nexus between those foils, that company or this boat. 

If no one talks about a race anymore because something breaks I'm looking for another sport. 

Same lawyers involved though?:)

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26 minutes ago, canstead said:

There's this thing in the SA Forums, where a bunch of keyboard jockey's decide they are 'entitled' to transparency and information. The level of shock and vitriol that results when a private citizen couldn't give a stuff for their entitlement is quite amusing.

What's also amusing is it happens on a fairly regular basis, and the language, arguments and conspiracy theories are entirely transferable from one (supposed) controversy to another. Same shit, different event.

In one breath I want to rail against it, in the next it kinda feels like home !?

Apparently no zoom school for the ATR fanboys this am?

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1 hour ago, stief said:

And if anyone thinks the speculation over ATR's rudder is bad, check out the wilder speculation over the redress expected Wednesday. It's been hilarious: far too many tweets in FR to link. 

 

 

Since this is all speculation with no facts,

I think AT hit a US nuclear submarine's periscope as it was close to the surface taking a look.  The rudder damaged the sub such that it could not lower the scope and thus forcing it back to a port.  The rudder was taken off HB as evidence the Navy does not want anyone to see and Alex was ordered to not say a word or be taken to jail.  I worry for Jack if he keeps this up for the Navy may not like all these questions that keep the Hugo Boss incident in the public eye.

It is certainly a much cooler story then just the old run of the mill "they took it off to hid that AT's fixes did not take, the boat was a POS, and his only option was to retire and not say the boat was a POS.  Best way to not answer questions is to not be available and wait till it blows over....or Jack gets pick up by men in dark suits, at night.

If we don't see this version of Hugo Boss again, as in it's taken out back and chopped up then the POS hypothesis makes some sense.  Otherwise I'll enjoy my Navy story or just continue to not care.

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8 minutes ago, mad said:

Same lawyers involved though?:)

 

13 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

That relates to a foil failure over 4 years ago on a different boat stief. 

No nexus between those foils, that company or this boat. 

If no one talks about a race anymore because something breaks I'm looking for another sport. 

If this is Thomson excuse for going dark he just swallowed 20 tonne of stupid.

Same spots, different leopard ?

Either way, ATR and Alex are silent. Alex usually 'wears his heart on his sleeve' and speaks openly. Whatever Alex's personal wishes, they're to be respected. ATR's? Expect I'll wait 4 years for the facts.

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38 minutes ago, canstead said:

There's this thing in the SA Forums, where a bunch of keyboard jockey's decide they are 'entitled' to transparency and information.  The level of shock and vitriol that results when a private citizen couldn't give a stuff for their entitlement is quite amusing.

Access and exposure is a two way street.

Pounding the pavement chasing sponsorship funding experience doesn't ooze from your post. 

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I mean there is the 3 minute interview ATR did when arriving, where Alex says they'll take a few days to assess, he'll go home for Christmas, then come back out for something. So maybe they are fixing the boat in Cape Town for some kind of event after Christmas. Cape to Rio record attempt? Something like that?

 

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28 minutes ago, mad said:

Same lawyers involved though?:)

21 minutes ago, stief said:

Same spots, different leopard ?

 

They went dark from the time it happened on the 27th November. 

So it was decided then and there the boats rudder linkage was a legal matter?

This is despite being happy with since it was launched over a year ago.

If legal action prevents communication why didn't Boris go dark after his 2016 foil break legal case start??

Mmmmmmmmm

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Hey Jack. Thought you'd have been chortling over the "black" beast and the 666 stuff in that legal judgement. :P

I'm onto relief from FR speculation about redress, or EN speculation about Alex. Off for fun with Spanish again for more reading about lightning strikes, dagger and foil-less IMOCA designs, low budget projects, and the remarkable challenges of weather routing this edition.

Or not.  Cheers

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4 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Interesting no boards tactic. So many ways to skin a VG.

Both mentioned US sailors, but not Ocean Planet or her/his/it's skipper... not good ...

Yes, surprised by the no boards bit. The keel gives enough lateral resistance to go upwind?

Didac was mentioned, so not sure what you mean. 

Hope Haji comments about US skippers; Owen and Andi mentioned 11th hour and Rich Wilson, and they both know about Coyote. Time constraints for the broadcast, I suppose.

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33 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

They went dark from the time it happened on the 27th November. 

So it was decided then and there the boats rudder linkage was a legal matter?

This is despite being happy with since it was launched over a year ago.

If legal action prevents communication why didn't Boris go dark after his 2016 foil break legal case start ??

Mmmmmmmmm

Panomarix signature sums it up.

British officer: You French fight for money while we fight for honor

Robert Surcouf: Each of us fights for what he lacks most

 

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3 minutes ago, Varan said:

The radical Hugo Boss, the most anticipated IMOCA launch in history. All the press and awe. The only IMOCA in this Vendee to have never completed a race against another IMOCA.

 

Would be irony if it folds and a new project is created. Maybe never. 

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Passage times at cape Leeuwin longitude, does not directly reflect race standings because if you're more to the north at that longitude you're behind those who are more to the south, (should be updated regularly):

https://www.vendeeglobe.org/fr/actualites/21000/cap-leeuwin-les-temps-de-passage

1 -  Charlie Dalin, Apivia

2 - Thomas Ruyant, LinkedOut at 3h 11min

3 - Yannick Bestaven, Maître CoQ  at 3h 20min

4 - Benjamin Dutreux, OMIA at 13h 25min

5 - Damien Seguin, Groupe APICIL at 14h 24min

6 - Jean Le Cam, Yes We Cam ! at 14h 47min

7- Louis Burton, Bureau Vallée 2 at 16h 59min

8 - Boris Hermann, SeaExplorer at 20h 43min

9 - Isabelle Joschke, MACSF at 23h 43min

It was all super close at cape Leeuwin... unbelievable... 9 boats within 24 hours... crazy

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Access and exposure is a two way street.

Pounding the pavement chasing sponsorship funding experience doesn't ooze from your post. 

Fair point, you know more about that.  Why not give Alex a call see if he can use some of your advice, he's clearly never managed to get any sponsorship funding together... oh, no, wait.....

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9 minutes ago, canstead said:

Fair point, you know more about that.  Why not give Alex a call see if he can use some of your advice, he's clearly never managed to get any sponsorship funding together... oh, no, wait.....

Most of the French, and other, skippers have, over the years had to find quite a few different title sponsors, so this activity, presentation of project etc. must be something they are well practiced at. I guess Alex must have had others apart from HB during his career but for quite a few years HB is the only main name sponsor which comes to mind.  With HB signed up one wonders how much actual selling Alex has had to do over the years compared with the others.

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3 hours ago, yl75 said:

Regarding HB rudder, I really don't understand why some footage hasn't been realeased, as, if it what happened, that footage clearly exists (just for shoreteam exchanges for instance).

because when you release video/photo material of damaged parts the question to "ok, and how did this happen" gets even louder, you can't show the damage with no annotation.
And it appears that for whatever reason they don't want to comment on it. Or they are still analyzing what happened and provide the info later when they are ready.

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Sam leaving Cape Town, photo from my sister. She says they are sailing around just outside of Table Bay, presumably checking things out.

 

6CA99AEC-92E5-486B-9B65-6C60FB67534F.jpeg

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Convincing interested parties to continue during a disappointment is probably more of a priority - plus without knowing the cash flow situation, you're looking at a boat that needs to be repaired/dockage paid for/retrieved not to mention the foil & storage they have to pay for from 2016 Hugo Boss. ATR's near term & longterm challenges are rather diff from that of initiatives coeur or charal. 

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1 minute ago, TheDragon said:

Sam leaving Cape Town, photo from my sister. She says they are sailing around just outside of Table Bay, presumably checking things out.

She's showing as a ghost boat on ATR's tracker.  That's nice.  She'll probably pass a few unless she treats it as a casual cruise.

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2 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

If we don't see this version of Hugo Boss again, as in it's taken out back and chopped up then the POS hypothesis makes some sense.  

I think it is not really appropriate to call any IMOCA that breaks in the VG a POS, any more than calling an F1 car a POS if it breaks down. The intent is to push the boundaries, which means boundaries must get crossed.

Many people have the entirely mistaken impression that engineering works from first principles of physics, and it never does. I mean never. QED is never, ever used, and that is the foundation of physics. All engineering is using rules of thumb. These rules of thumb only apply within limited domains of vast experience, such as how thick steel plates should be for container ships. They do not apply to carbon structures.

The rules for carbon structures are not the same as the rules for other materials: whereas the rules for glass are based on the observation that strength is correlated to the cosine of the off angle load, with carbon -- due to the dramatically higher brittleness of carbon, the lack of stretch before failure, which is the inability for load to spread through a carbon structure -- the strength is observed to fall off by cosine SQUARED, or very rapidly with increasing load off-axis of the fibers. Rules for metal are different yet again, due to the fact nearly all metals are insensitive to direction of load. Adding coring, or flanges, or stress risers to the problem just makes things that much less precise.

Add the enormous dynamic effects of crashing the bow after UFO impact, followed by momentum and still full sail force driving the bow underwater, and one is very far from the limited domains of vast experience.

One might think engineering is predicting: one predicts this boat design will make it around the world at record speed. Well, its like predicting the weather. An extremely experienced design team, like AT's, can be consistently close, but never precise, and sometimes very much incorrect. The reason: mathematically, its called chaos. Chaotic systems are those where aspects of the future can be reasonably well predicted, but in general (outside of limited ranges of variable values and time into the future) we can predict reasonably well only within ranges, or patterns, approximately what can be expected, not specific solutions. All that is required for chaos to appear is state and non-linearity. State means what happens next is dependent on what happens before. Sailing certainly has a lot of state! Non-linearities include things that change faster or slower than a linear change, such as lift which is a function of the square of speed. Squaring something is non-linear: 2 times faster makes 4 times the lift, while 4 times faster makes 16 times the lift, certainly non-linear. Therefore, if we are talking about sailboats, we are talking about chaotic systems, which means any prediction that any given boat will make it around the world is un-certain.

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Imho Alex Thompson has nothing to prove, it was his fifth VG, he finished two of them, respect. His best finish so far was 2nd, just like Ellen Mac Arthur, Loick Peyron, Jean Le Cam... that's a group of pretty legendary sailors.

I don't really question Alex Thomson's fighting spirit. If he says his boat is unfit to finish, so be it. It broke down, he tried to repair it, we didn't have much news on hull integrity after that but my speculation is that the repairs weren't enough, you can only do so much out at sea. Then there was the rudder thing, whatever it was.. the last straw.

Just my two cents

 

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2 minutes ago, ant1 said:

Imho Alex Thompson has nothing to prove, it was his fifth VG, he finished two of them, respect. His best finish so far was 2nd, just like Ellen Mac Arthur, Loick Peyron, Jean Le Cam... that's a group of pretty legendary sailors.

I think that's right. Setting aside the German connection, he is closer to an Andy Murray than a Tim Henman...

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1 hour ago, ant1 said:

Imho Alex Thompson has nothing to prove, it was his fifth VG, he finished two of them, respect. His best finish so far was 2nd, just like Ellen Mac Arthur, Loick Peyron, Jean Le Cam... that's a group of pretty legendary sailors.

 

 

These sailors have actually won some races though...

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19 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Piss off ambulance chaser.. I got in first.

I might not be qualified but I know the UN Convention on the  Law of the Sea backwards ....I'm still working on forwards.

Looking for a gif of amphibious ambulances....Dog teams swim and go in reverse. :lol:

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3 hours ago, TheDragon said:

Glad to see she remains shown on HB tracker page at least, might be on her way now?

After all she will be shown on the main tracker in phantom mode... can be good for teachers who had their class following her more particularly... there even could be extra fun in following a "ghost" ship

"Sam will go on her way under the vigilant eye of the race direction of the Vendee Globe, ready to intervene in case of problems. Initiative Coeur's track will be visible on the Vendee Globe cartography, but in "phantom" mode."

https://www.vendeeglobe.org/fr/actualites/21031/bonne-route-sam

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6 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

We were on South Georgia, on the opposite side from this iceberg, in remarkably good conditions. We visited one colony of King Penguins that had between 80,000 and 300,000 birds (depending on which expert was talking). From offshore it looked like the surface of the land was vibrating there were so many birds so close together. Don't know what the populations are like on the SW side but I assume similar.

Incorrect assumption. In comparison with the NE side there is almost nothing on the SW side. It is awesomely spectacular though. 

Also bear in mind that if this berg runs aground it will be a very long way offshore, probably not even in sight of the island It has about 70m or so sticking out of the water so around 500m below the water.... 

Both experts were probably right and you were not listening very carefully. The correct and usual way to refer to the quantity of birds in a colony is in breeding pairs i.e. the number of nests (your 80,000) but some people talk about estimates of the total number of birds; breeding pairs, plus their young, plus non-breeding birds plus juveniles not in the care of their parents (your 300,000). 

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7 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

The three lead boats are in a strong breakaway with the weather.  Have to wonder though how much performance Linked is losing with that damaged port foil. Some very interesting days ahead.

Thanks Hitch for that look ahead 3 days. Will watch if JLC/Damien end up more or less a day behind.

The squid/windy projection also shows the rise to the north, and has trouble with the date line ;) 

2054780340_ScreenShot2020-12-14at2_29_34PM.thumb.png.8be6ebdac137033c850899c5644f05be.png

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9 hours ago, JonRowe said:

 

Hmm OK so there is no stock.. no linkage either which he disconnected at sea, perhaps the rudder was already snapped off and he just dropped the stock overboard when he disconnected the linkage... 

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