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Brest Atlantiques 2019


jb5

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Sodebo's turn around decision, smart or otherwise in terms of sparing the boat and safety, has turned a 200+ mile lead into a 200+ mile deficit or an okay days sailing on these boats.

https://www.brestatlantiques.com/actualites/l-elastique-se-retend

Christian Dumard, the weather consultant to the race management:

At the front of the fleet Gitana has a little more wind, 30 knots, against 27-28 for Actual, which is not far from the wrong side of the depression.  It is for that reason they are trying to keep speeds high. They are all sailing into about a 3 meter swell which will gradually decrease as they go down toward the south.  Gitana will have more tomorrow which will allow them to go fast. The wind will gradually allow them to go toward Gough Island in the middle of the South Atlantic at the edge of the ice zone. The good news for them is that the anticyclone is moving more and more north which will allow them to pass below it and on Monday morning be near Gough Island then the evening in Cape Town .

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https://www.brestatlantiques.com/actualites/mot-du-bord-actual-leader-va-pour-la-vie-des-betes

Ronan Gladu reporter on Actual Leader.


I like this boat myself, I am attached to it! And I know that Yves is more than proud of Actual Leader! But for almost 24 hours I have the impression that they intend to kill the trimaran: we have to go quickly to stay with the wind and to get a better angle, in short not to fall behind the front of the depression. Christian Dumard, the weather router, says there is pressure in this direction. Except we are going upwind in 25-30 knots and the polars indicate that we should be doing 30-35 knots but we try not to exceed 20 knots as this sea is nasty. We have the swell front and we have a swell toward the (ant ?) Arctic. This creates what is called a wedge by surfers, the meeting of two swells that meet randomly in front of our bows.

Besides the discomfort - we are almost always on all fours in the boat - we also feel for the boat, the shocks as he crashes are huge. The going is very hard with scary noises: hulls, links, rigging, everything is complaining, and for us the stiffness of the carbon transmits all the vibrations. The electronics are failing (?), little by little, under the shocks of the waves. I ask Yves and Alex every hour if it's "safe"? If there are no other options? How long will it last ? They look a lot at their feet ... they are worn out by the stress and fatigue. "Hard to say if the boat will hold, it reminds me of Cape Horn-against the wind," if we go behind the front it will be worse: we will have a larger sea and be without the wind. There is at least 3 days of this.

Ok, well, go for the "life of animals" as Yves says ... we are soaked, rinsed with salt, everything is sticky. "Chinese noodles" is THE meal of the day, constantly clinging to life and to the survival of the boat! The guys sleep standing, the crackling of the carbon wakes you up with a shock ... it's rough! But there is still  good humor, the discussions and laughter are just shorter as the boat screams in pain in the waves: poor beast!

At the start of last night the guys really made me hallucinate: 35 knots of wind with gusts of 40 knots (I saw 42 knots on the display), using the third reef (which seems huge given the conditions!) the sail spills outside of the lazy jacks above the boom. We risk of tearing everything apart. Yves and Alex went, in turn, to recover it at the end of the boom over the water. Seeing them crawling on the boom, covered by the spray, to be pulled in all directions by the movements of the boat ... it's really “ofs” guys!?!
 

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The last shot of Charles is great.
Sleeping while sitting up without backrest. One hand on the winch the other on the smartphone. :D
If you give him a sheet in the other hand I bet the phone gets dropped first. :lol:

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Is interesting that Gitana has continued their program of reducing aero drag. I do not recall seeing the fairing between the J2stay and the forward beam before. It was briefly seen the video where Charles is trying to repair the aft fairing on the forward beam. They also have a nice big gasket around the base of the mast which probably helps for aero as well as reducing the water getting shot down the line tunnels into the cockpit. 

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18 minutes ago, ctutmark said:

Is interesting that Gitana has continued their program of reducing aero drag. I do not recall seeing the fairing between the J2stay and the forward beam before. It was briefly seen the video where Charles is trying to repair the aft fairing on the forward beam. They also have a nice big gasket around the base of the mast which probably helps for aero as well as reducing the water getting shot down the line tunnels into the cockpit. 

As much upwind sailing they are doing in this leg, you would think their aero advantages have to be helping.... although I guess maybe not if they have to slow down for the seastate, anyway.

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Translation of last post from "Actual Leader"

 

Published  Nov 17 2019

Post sent on Sunday Novembre 17th by Ronan Gladu, media man aboard "Actual Leader".

"Life is still very tough aboard Actual Leader, while we are starting our third day (or is it fourth? I can't remember!) of fight iwht htis storm in South Atlantic. Since Rio, nouwe have not seen the sun, it is raining ant it is getting colder and colder as we are sailing further South. We are not sailing close hauled anymore, but the sea is still in a shity state, but not all the time anymore: the boat accelerates on the "flat" sections of the sea, to end up with a twice as hard landing, after the first double wave we hit: even more violent and stressful than before!

So, after being so hard on the boat, breakage starts to occur: yesterday, Saturday evening, the "aero trampoline, on the front port beam started to rip apart. The bottom part only and only a portion of it. What is that thing? It is the wedge shape, located behind the beam to improve the aerodynamic of the boat, which is also part of the anchoring of the whole trampoline! If this fails entirely, it is the whole port side trampoline that goes away: a disaster. Yves and Alex have been fighting the whole night to stop the bleeding. For now, it is holding. But we must plan for a real repair, but right now, the seas are too heavy... And there is another real emergency: the cold front behind us is dangerously close!

The time spent on the repair put us in a delicate situation: according to our routeur, the front is only 30 miles behind us, and it is moving towards us at a speed between 20 and 35 knots. It the front catches us, the wind is going to bear of and get lighter... and we will be behind the front, without wind and heavy seas: the race would be over for us. We have to stay with the others and get pushed in the high pressure system in front of us. We have to stay in front of the cold front until Monday morning.


But rain increases, wind is getting lighter and veers off to North-West: it is a disaster, the front is upon us! All hands on deck: do we shake a reef? No, let's set up the J2! And off we go, for a crazy race with the clouds for the whole night. Alex explains to me, with a sheet in each hand: "you see that, it is the TWD, west of 10°,  we're dead. Below 20 knots TWS, it is over as well!" The wind indicator is swinging all the time, all the way down to 14 knots, from the 345°... Yves grumbles, Alex hides his eyes to not see the figures... . It might still be a squall prior to the front; if it is the case, watch out, it is going to come back with a vengeance".

Bam! Suddenly, the wind picks up to 25-28 knots from the 15°, the trimaran roars, takes off in the bear off, (speed goes from 18 to 30-35 knots!)... Imposible to stand up, our hearts are beating hard, as Alex is triming out as much as he can, trying not to get pulled in by the sheet and the motion of the boat. All of that with a sound track of wind driving rain,, howling, cracking sounds from the boat, and wistling sound of the sheets sliding on the winches!!

It is pedal to the metal, but at least, we stay in front of the cold front, until the next lull... Personally, I am shitting my pants (free translation from my side...), my heart racing at 100. I end up looking for refuge in my bunk, litterally gripping the carbon fiber at each acceleration, each time the boat ends up jumping a wave. Then silence and your heart in your mouth, followed by a terrible shock, your body sinks in the bean bag, to end up with the whiplash.  A phenomenom specific to all carbon multihulls; there is so little bending of the platform that each shock is reverberated in the whole boat structure, in our bodies. Of course, I did not sleep that night, and with cramps everywhere for being tense at each hard acceleration.

Of course, Yves & Alex did not sleep either. After an epic "nose dive", they took a reef in the J3 and continued to speed up with each puff. But they did it!! Apparently, we had the second fastest run in the fleet last night, even if we were competing more with the cloud than the rest of the fleet! Right now, we are flying litterally at 30+ knots in a sea that is a bit more organized, but still with some pretty big take offs, which make me fly to the ceiling as I am typing these lines. This is still "wild life" mode. We got our Gore-Tex underwear to try to reduce humidity from the foulies.... and the boat. There is water everywhere, in the bottom of the boat. I have not eaten somthing solid for the past 2 days. I do not want to fly across the boat while on the toilet for "number 2"!!! But I got used to peeing in the cockpit, during our discussions... "Wild life" I told you. TOnight, the forecast is for wind increasing to 30 knots. I hope Yves and Alex will allow themselves a third reef...

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Starboard rudder hit something at 35 knots.  

Article from Voiles & Vent:

Cette nuit de dimanche à lundi, vers 0h30 heure française Sodebo Ultim 3 a percuté un OFNI (objet flottant non identifié) au niveau du safran tribord, au milieu de l’Atlantique Sud, 120 milles au Nord de la zone des glaces interdite délimitée par la direction de course de Brest Atlantiques.

Le trimaran progressait à 35 nœuds au reaching dans une mer formée à 200 milles dans l’Ouest de l’île de Tristan da Cunha, en direction de Cape Town, deuxième point de passage de la Brest Atlantiques.

Thomas Coville, Jean-Luc Nélias et le media man Martin Keruzoré sont en sécurité dans le bateau. Ils attendent le lever du jour pour faire un état des lieux plus précis.

Sunday night - around 0h30 Monday morning in France - Sodebo Ultim 3 hit an unidentified floating object with their starboard rudder, in the middle of the South Atlantic, 120 miles north of the no-go ice zone marked off by the Brest Atlantiques directors.

The trimaran was progressing at 35 knots, reaching in heavy seas 200 miles to the west of the island Tristan de Cunha en route to Capetown, the second turning mark of the Brest Atlantiques Race. 

Thomas Coville, Jean-Luc Nélias and the media man Martin Keruzoré are safe in the boat.  They are waiting for daylight to do a more precise examination of the situation. 

   

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Sodebo is doing 25 knots again so I guess they were able to repair the rudder issue.
Looks like Frank Gammas and Charles Caudrelier are on the win in this leg.
303072788_brestatlantique1811.thumb.PNG.2812b4f54120075de7711e0619ffbd1f.PNG
309745477_brestatlantiqueweather1811.PNG.9912dd425ebcd6e267f7e877e7590fa1.PNG

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The rudder shaft broke in the middle!

Between the top bearing on deck and the lower bearing on the bottom of the ama.

They recovered the top part and had to wait for the morning and some daylight to recover the bottom part which was flapping around...

They plan to go to Cape Town and then see what to do...

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19 minutes ago, Chasm said:

That is a new one, or at least rare.

Life is better on Gitana:

 

So nice to see that boat ripping along in the Roaring 40s.  First time that a foiling boat has been able to enjoy the ultimate in Southern Ocean ripping conditions.  I would love to know how much of the time the boat is up on foils only, and not skimming.  Need a drone shot.

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34 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

So nice to see that boat ripping along in the Roaring 40s.  First time that a foiling boat has been able to enjoy the ultimate in Southern Ocean ripping conditions.  I would love to know how much of the time the boat is up on foils only, and not skimming.  Need a drone shot.

But could a drone keep up, GG? Can't see the guys slowing down to effect a recovery. ;-)

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Actual Leader has passed Sodebo for 3rd...  Hopefully Sodebo won't fall impossibly behind by the time they get it repaired.

Looks like a decent southerly in Cape Town tomorrow, diminishing over the ensuing days...  If that holds, the fleet should expand after rounding the mark, as the trailing boats must go through the area in less breeze as those who arrived before them...  Sodebo may find themselves hoping for a serious fleet compression at the doldrums northbound.

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11 hours ago, Your Mom said:

Actual Leader has passed Sodebo for 3rd...  Hopefully Sodebo won't fall impossibly behind by the time they get it repaired.

Looks like a decent southerly in Cape Town tomorrow, diminishing over the ensuing days...  If that holds, the fleet should expand after rounding the mark, as the trailing boats must go through the area in less breeze as those who arrived before them...  Sodebo may find themselves hoping for a serious fleet compression at the doldrums northbound.

Sodebo had some rudder issues.
1621098435_ruddersodebo.thumb.PNG.d9be76eaa8091736a61410df1b419f6d.PNG

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Interesting that they were worried about damage to the backstay chainplates (do they still call them 'chainplates'?) I imagine there would be a very strong bulkheads anchoring the beam to the amas - and maybe even crash bulkheads dividing off the ama tail section where the rudder stock is (was) housed. So most of the serious damage has already been done. If the water cannot now enter the bulkhead, they should be safe now, no?

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33 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Interesting that they were worried about damage to the backstay chainplates (do they still call them 'chainplates'?) I imagine there would be a very strong bulkheads anchoring the beam to the amas - and maybe even crash bulkheads dividing off the ama tail section where the rudder stock is (was) housed. So most of the serious damage has already been done. If the water cannot now enter the bulkhead, they should be safe now, no?

I would suspect as well that the bulkhead at the aft beam is watertight. So I guess they are safe. 

On the other hand, I would guess the race is over at Cape Town... I do not see them continuing under this configuration; they cannot be competitive on port tack, and more importantly, they no longer have any redundancy for steering. If, God forbids, they break their main rudder, like Gitana team did in the first part of the race, they are in much bigger trouble. 

Supposing they have a spare ama rudder (which I don't know), repairing the rudder and the bearing assembly in Cape Town and resuming the race was already a stretch... but replacing the aft end of the ama would take much longer... unless they can do a (hypothetical) rudder repair in Cape Town without replacing the aft end of the ama!!! And ending up with "new transom mounted" rudder on starboard side!

As far as I know,  they were the only boat with this ama rudder configuration (not hung at the transom). They might reconsider; it is one thing to lose your rudder when you hit something, it is another one to lose part of the hull...

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The are only racing to the shed again... that is about it.  Good news for the mast and bulkhead is that if they need to, most of it can be done on post tack. Of course that means they will be leaning on that starboard float and missing rudder. Quite the parade!

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9 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

Gotta love broken boat sailing at 30+knts.

Of course, having three rudders to start with helps. ;-)

On the other hand, three times the chance of hitting shit in the water, I guess.

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2 hours ago, Laurent said:

I would suspect as well that the bulkhead at the aft beam is watertight. So I guess they are safe.

As far as I know,  they were the only boat with this ama rudder configuration (not hung at the transom).

I'm guessing they are checking if the damage extended forward as you would have some serious structure connecting the beam bulkhead to the rudder to take the rudder loads and it might not just snap off that cleanly at the rudder post.

None of these boats have the ama rudders on the transoms, presumably so they don't have to build a heavy structure all the way out...

If they have a spare rudder it might not be that hard to laminate a new rudder tube and keep sailing but hard to see them doing it fast enough to be competitive...

Then again they have to sail the boat back anyway so who knows what they will do... 

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1 hour ago, Airwick said:

None of these boats have the ama rudders on the transoms, presumably so they don't have to build a heavy structure all the way out...

You are right for Actual Leader; the ama rudder installation is similar to Sodebo..

But MACIF does have a transom mount.

entrainements macif trimaran

 

For Gitana 17, it may have a fairing around it, but it is still what I would call transom mounted.

The Ultime 32m max trimaran Edmond de Rothschild - start Route du Rhum - November 4, 2018 photo copyright Eloi Stichelbaut taken at  and featuring the Maxi class

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7 minutes ago, Laurent said:

You are right for Actual Leader; the ama rudder installation is similar to Sodebo..

But MACIF does have a transom mount.

You are right... I had a brain fart and was thinking about the previous hen boats which seemed to all have rudders near the beam...

I guess aiming for full flight they want as much spacing between foils and rudder for pitch stability so they move them back. It also makes it a lot easier to make them retractable.

It's actually surprising how far forward the beam is Macif... Did it use to have "conventional" rudders further forward?

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Talked about how on Sodebo, with the rudders being just behind the aft beam that it would translate to a stiffer "chassis" than those boats with aft mounted rudders. 

This has certainly translated, however, with a broken rudder flailing around following impact, it appears that the engineers made the ama section behind the rudder bearings so much lighter that it has become suseptible to damage from a busted rudder. The real question is whether any ama could withstand being smashed by such violent attack?

So is it back to the drawing board with rudder location? Or laminate in a layer or 2 of kevlar to make the ama survivable of such onslaught in the event of a repeat?

With all the foil damage that we are witnessing between Minitransat, TJV and and Brest Atlantique, there seems little chance of any fleet going wholly unscathed for the future. 

With the pace that these boats now do, forward facing sonar seems far fetched; because even if objects could be detected, the violent course alterations would likely induced injury or worse, capsize. Russian Roulette seems very apt.

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4 hours ago, Airwick said:

You are right... I had a brain fart and was thinking about the previous hen boats which seemed to all have rudders near the beam...

I guess aiming for full flight they want as much spacing between foils and rudder for pitch stability so they move them back. It also makes it a lot easier to make them retractable.

It's actually surprising how far forward the beam is Macif... Did it use to have "conventional" rudders further forward?

There is a video somewhere where Thomas Coville explain that they decided to install the ama rudders on the beam bulkhead to:

A) have simpler linkage system between the 3 rudders

B ) avoid massive loads on the aft sections of the amas... and therefore be able to build them ligher...

As an engineer, I can only be surprised that they did not assess properly what should have been an obvious failure mode; hiting something at 30 knots. Basic FMEA

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I'm sure they thought about it, I guess it's all tradeoffs in the end, if you hit something large enough your race/record attempt is over anyway so it might not be that big of a deal if the repairs are going to be more complicated...
It's interesting that Macif broke their main hull rudder earlier, which suggest they don't have a "fuse" even though I believe it's transom mounted. You'd think they would have some sort of kickup mechanism considering how often they seem to be hitting things...

Also interesting how so far in this race it's all rudders and not the foils forward that are getting hit (I don't think the damage on Gitana was from hitting something?)(of course that could change). 

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2 hours ago, Airwick said:


It's interesting that Macif broke their main hull rudder earlier, which suggest they don't have a "fuse" even though I believe it's transom mounted. You'd think they would have some sort of kickup mechanism considering how often they seem to be hitting something

Nope central rudder under hull on Macif

Is this possible to have fuse on rudders that are taking that much loads now that they are lifting plans ?

I also don't know if you would want one of your contact point on the water to kick off at 40+ knts ...

I was also surprised that they hit stuff on thz back appendage without hitting it first with the foils

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2 minutes ago, popo said:

Nope central rudder under hull on Macif

Is this possible to have fuse on rudders that are taking that much loads now that they are lifting plans ?

I also don't know if you would want one of your contact point on the water to kick off at 40+ knts ...

I was also surprised that they hit stuff on thz back appendage without hitting it first with the foils

Also with the rudders having lifting surfaces on them, I doubt it would be pretty if one of these foils tried to kick up at speed. 

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49 minutes ago, popo said:

Is this possible to have fuse on rudders that are taking that much loads now that they are lifting plans ? 

You could at least design rudders to break at the end of the shaft and not between the two bearings to avoid hull damage and the loss of the end of the AMA. 

I believe Maserati tried something with kick-up rudder and textile fuse, without much success. For them, rudder failure seems to be a common problem. 

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6 hours ago, Boink said:

With all the foil damage that we are witnessing between Minitransat, TJV and and Brest Atlantique, there seems little chance of any fleet going wholly unscathed for the future. 

That is certainly a problem, Boink. But what to do? It surely is not possible to make these boats bullet proof, unless they are all OD. But who would want to sail on overweight, blundering pigs?

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4 hours ago, popo said:

I was also surprised that they hit stuff on thz back appendage without hitting it first with the foils

According to this: https://www.voile.banquepopulaire.fr/passion/le-maxi-banque-populaire-ix source, both amafoils weight 400 kg, while rudders weigh only 40 kg each. Yet rudderfoils run deeper below the surface than amafoils, because the rudderfoils provide downforce when going fast, and losing that by surfacing would cause instant pitchpoling.

That means main amafoils can withstand some eccentric hits without totally breaking into pieces, while substantially weaker underslung rudderfoils (supported only by even weaker shaft) can not, and since rudderfoils run deeper they can hit something that goes below mainfoils, and T-rudderfoils also extend further leeward than L-amafoils. Same weight for all rudderfoils might even suggest all 3 are identical, making any replacement possible with only one spare part.

All ultimes are off course different, but I would think the structural sizing of parts are still rather close among each other as is use of L- and T-foils on amafoils and rudders.

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On 11/16/2019 at 3:54 PM, Doug Lord said:

Go Gitana 17!!!!

Yes . I think they are the best balanced crew fot tactic and strategy , experience , estimation of the risk they can take . I think that Cammas and Caudrelier are two of the best sailors in the world . And  the boat seems to be very technologically advanced

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https://www.brestatlantiques.com/actualites/armel-le-cleac-h-le-jeu-est-encore-tres-ouvert-jusqu-brest

Armel observing the race from shore.

Have you been able to follow "Brest Atlantiques"?
Yes I followed the start of the race at sea, when I was on the TJV, I tried to look at the rankings, and even if I did not have the pictures the team also gave me some news . Afterwards, just after our arrival in Bahia, Gitana stopped there for their pit stop. And since that point I'm following the race very closely particularly the general regrouping in Rio, the very difficult days they had after Rio, the situation was quite exceptional because it is very rare for the boats to be close like that to head to South Africa. For the weather, I'm interested in following their trajectories and of course,  looking towards our future trimaran Banque Populaire, I am watching everyone's performance.

After Rio, they had three days upwind and they all came out without any big breaks, is it reassuring?
Yes, it's encouraging, because these are the conditions in which the boats are most stressed, when we start to slow down and cannot go to 100% of the polars. We had experienced this last year on the Route du Rhum and it caused some significant problems.  Here they have passed the test and the four boats are still in the race, even if Sodebo will have to stop, but not due to a problem related to the weather. Making the boats reliable in all conditions is one of the important issues with the Ultim 32/23 class, it's very positive that they have gone through this because it's more difficult than to sail in the strong winds downwind in the South where have a much easier sea state.

The only major damages were the impacts with unidentified floating objects, what can be done about that?
Unfortunately we know that on all race boats we can have this kind of damage, we saw it on the Transat Jacques Vabre with Alex Thomson who lost his keel, and on "Brest Atlantiques" for all boats except Actual Leader have had issues. And as our Ultims go faster, the impacts are even more violent when they occur, which inevitably causes a large problems for the performance and safety of the boats. One will never avoid the impacts but you can perhaps find solutions to improve the strength of the components, to have less complicated parts to repair. What is certain is that with the Team Banque Populaire, it is one of the elements that we will give consideration after what we have seen in "Brest Atlantiques".

How do you analyze the performance of the four boats?
We feel that Gitana as soon as it can push has easier speed, they have a greater ability to accelerate than the others, it is a bit of a continuation of what we had seen in 2018.  François and Gwénolé are not far behind, especially as the weather has helped them to close up a little and I think that the conditions after Cape Town could favor them. The race is still very open until they reach Brest, they have just done half of the race, I think a lot will happen by the time they arrival. It will be more complicated for Sodebo with the breakage of their rudder but they have shown great performance since the start and Actual Leader still has card to play, we know that that boat is a little slower, but it is the only one not to have had major damage and that allows them to remain in contact. We know that as soon as there is a damage the loss it is quickly a few hundred miles. When we look at the tracker today, the boats are still very close and it's great! And in view of the weather after Cape Town it does not look simple, I think it will open opportunities for different strategies. I love to follow the race and it makes me want to be out there!

Are you thinking about your future trimaran when you see the pictures?
Yes definitely. I try to imagine also when I see their strategies and the weather what sails they are using, how they sail the boat, it was very interesting to see the speeds they could reach after Rio in that sea state. There are things we notice because today we are just starting and we will have to wait more than a year until we get our boat so we can learn by watching the others.  "Brest Atlantiques" is a great lesson for us,because the conditions are very varied and the boats are all different.

Will you be in Brest to welcome them?
Yes of course ! I have not yet looked at the arrival estimates but I will be happy to welcome them back, hoping that the four will all be there, this is the priority.

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It's always amazed me how an ama rudder foil can get hit and damaged w/o the ufo hitting the ama's uptip lifting foil first!

Maserati(MOD 70 conversion) has suffered stb rudder foil damage in numerous races over , at least, the last three years.

-------------------------

Hope everybody makes it safely.....

Go Gitana!!!

Picture from Team Maserati:

Maserati kick up rudder trunk.jpg

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7 hours ago, ctutmark said:

Also with the rudders having lifting surfaces on them, I doubt it would be pretty if one of these foils tried to kick up at speed. 

The idea was that you loose the lifting surfaces if it kicks up. Bad but still somewhat usable until you can switch to a replacement.
OTOH you loose the whole rudder if it can't kick up. Or with new data from this race you loose the rudder and the part of the hull it was attached to...

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Has the Sodebo team announced that they won't be continuing?

I agree it seems certain they won't, but I'm wondering...  How will Sodebo get home?  Ship it or sail?  And where would the long-term permanent repair occur?  Cape Town or at home?  If the answer is that the boat should sail home, and that the repair should occur at home...    such that the plan would be to spend a few days doing a "safe for return delivery" repair and then sail home in delivery mode...  then why not still be "racing"?  I mean...  They might finish a week or two behind, but in a 4-boat race, maybe that's still worthwhile?  It would still get sponsor exposure and continuing coverage, etc...

I'm not suggesting anyone should adopt added risk to the boat or crew.  Just thinking it's possible that the "delivery to home" could still technically be scored as "racing".

Although I guess if an adequate repair for delivery requires hauling the boat, and hauling the boat is beyond what the rules allow, then I guess the question is moot.

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1 hour ago, Chasm said:

The idea was that you loose the lifting surfaces if it kicks up. Bad but still somewhat usable until you can switch to a replacement.
OTOH you loose the whole rudder if it can't kick up. Or with new data from this race you loose the rudder and the part of the hull it was attached to...

So you first need to break the bottom of the rudder off for a kick up system to be viable?  Or does the structure of the lifting foils need to such that a downward load on the lifting surface need to allow the surface to break off? If Dug Gourd is to be believed the windward foils are in use for downward pressure to add Righting Moment,  would this break the lifting foils off? 

Whether there is a solution remains to be seen, these boats are pushing limits that most of us are never going to experience. 

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39 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

Has the Sodebo team announced that they won't be continuing?

I agree it seems certain they won't, but I'm wondering...  How will Sodebo get home?  Ship it or sail?  And where would the long-term permanent repair occur?  Cape Town or at home?  If the answer is that the boat should sail home, and that the repair should occur at home...    such that the plan would be to spend a few days doing a "safe for return delivery" repair and then sail home in delivery mode...  then why not still be "racing"?  I mean...  They might finish a week or two behind, but in a 4-boat race, maybe that's still worthwhile?  It would still get sponsor exposure and continuing coverage, etc...

I'm not suggesting anyone should adopt added risk to the boat or crew.  Just thinking it's possible that the "delivery to home" could still technically be scored as "racing".

Although I guess if an adequate repair for delivery requires hauling the boat, and hauling the boat is beyond what the rules allow, then I guess the question is moot.

If they assess in Cape Town that the boat is NOT safe to sail on its own back to France, and they have to execute a full repair in Cape Town, we are most likely talking weeks:

 - they need to build a new ama rudder (if they do not have a spare one)

 - they need to dust off the molds (which are somewhere in France) and build an aft end of the ama

 - they need so ship both to Cape Town

 - they need to haul out the boat

 - they need to graft the new aft end of the ama on the boat, and do the rudder installation, with all re-enforcement for the bearings

In that case I guess this is the end of the race for Sodebo.

If they assess that it is OK to sail back to France as is (or after minor repairs), in delivery mode, most likely they will stay officially in the race, just for the exposure as you stated.

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43 minutes ago, Laurent said:

If they assess in Cape Town that the boat is NOT safe to sail on its own back to France, and they have to execute a full repair in Cape Town, we are most likely talking weeks: 

 - they need to build a new ama rudder (if they do not have a spare one)

 - they need to dust off the molds (which are somewhere in France) and build an aft end of the ama

 - they need so ship both to Cape Town

 - they need to haul out the boat

 - they need to graft the new aft end of the ama on the boat, and do the rudder installation, with all re-enforcement for the bearings

In that case I guess this is the end of the race for Sodebo. 

If they assess that it is OK to sail back to France as is (or after minor repairs), in delivery mode, most likely they will stay officially in the race, just for the exposure as you stated.

There is no spare for sure and the mold might even be used by BP for their number XI.

I don't think that one would be of great use:

 

17cfec824ef2589f9f223bae5756508ee9504de8.jpg

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37 minutes ago, ctutmark said:

So you first need to break the bottom of the rudder off for a kick up system to be viable? 

IIRC more along the lines of "If the rudder kicks up, chances are the foil gets ripped off real quick. Lets not reinforce that attachment point but make the kick up mechanism strong enough so that we don't have to replace it as well."
That is all from the public media, I have no insight into any team. :) 
IIRC there were some problems setting the trigger point. Early release does not help.

Overall that makes sense to me. If a T rudder kicks up at speed that is a huge amount of sudden drag. At slow speed it might survive but what foiling trimaran goes slow?

I wonder if we will see additional rudders on the big boats. More weight, more complexity. With the rate of attrition we see now it might save a record attempt.

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5 hours ago, jb5 said:

Nice drone shot of Sodebo.

 

A few things come to mind watching that video:

Well, that boat is ripping along pretty damned fast without the leeward rudder for lift/downforce.... and without the back bunch of feet of ama.... so, maybe the smart thing to do is keep the ama light and not try to design it to sustain impact from a loose rudder, but rather design the ama to be able to loose that back few feet and simply keep sailing, like they are doing.  I mean, they have been consistently surpassing 30knts without the rudder or the back end of the ama... who is to say it would be better if they designed the rudder so heavy to take an impact, or the ama to sustain a swinging loose rudder.  Hell, looking at that video, it seems they could just make the turn at Cape Town and head home.  I'm sure there will be conditions that it really slows them down, but it does not seem as though there is anything back there, now, that would be leading to continued rapid increased damage.  Of course the regular disclaimer that I don't know shit.

The other thing that came to mind... they have a pretty damned fast-ass drone... going back to our other discussion, but of course they are not heading upwind.

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Sodebo have a technical team already in Cape Town and apparently have local connections in place to try to repair and return to the race. 

Macif are also stopping to work on steering and a foil control issues. Their team is supposed to be there when they arrive 

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5 minutes ago, yl75 said:

Finally a bit more of drone footage from Gitana :

 

 

Six foils providing lift, looks like a lot of speed, and yet the main hull is mostly in sea hugging mode in the fastest of the ultime class.

Just how fast does it have to go to make main hull fully flying too?

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6 hours ago, stief said:

More from Sodebo about the limits of sailing the tri. Can't tell from the auto English captions what their plans are. Something about a 'technical' stop

 

Jena-Luc Nelias explains that it is a bit like driving on black ice... They have to keep the main hull rudder in the water, since they do not have a rudder on the leeside ama. And the wind is picking up, which means that the main hull lifts once in a while, and then the behavior of the boat depends entirely on the equilibrium of the sailplan... (ladies and gentlemen, you have here NOT a case of brass balls, but rather a case of titanium balls...)

To avoid that, Thomas Coville is getting to the helm, to not let the pilot take care of those situations, but they are still super impress by the sound behavior of the boat overall, with only one rudder in the water (when the main hull is still on the water...).

They also say that besides the ama rudder failure and the subsequent loss of the end of the ama, everything else is in tip-top shape... The situation must be even more frustrating for them, knowing that they had done everything right to keep the boat at max potential and their fate is due only to bad luck.

They plan to stop at Cape Town and assess. Nothing has been decided yet on the rest of the race.

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55 minutes ago, Groucho Marx said:

Rig is inclined to windward a few degrees, interesting.

 

 

They all do that. Same for the Multi 50 in the Transat Jacques Vabre and the last generation of the former ORMA 60. If you look carefully on some videos, you can see skinny but superlong hydraulic cylinders along the deck of the amas, pulling or releasing the shrouds through a block where you would normally have the shroud plate/turnbuckle assembly.

I read somewhere that the two main advantages are:

 - better aerodynamics for the sailplan

 - almost as important, (or even more important), with the di-hedral they have, NOT having the mast weight to leeward once heeling is very important to reduce heeling moment.

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Vodafone (ORMA 60, Desjoyeaux's original tri in Auckland) sails and moors with her rig canted to maybe 20 degrees so for a decade or more we have been used to seeing that. Can even cant rig on my 30 year old boat - but for some reason thought the big maxi multihull class had discouraged it, wrong.

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6 hours ago, Laurent said:

They all do that. Same for the Multi 50 in the Transat Jacques Vabre and the last generation of the former ORMA 60. If you look carefully on some videos, you can see skinny but superlong hydraulic cylinders along the deck of the amas, pulling or releasing the shrouds through a block where you would normally have the shroud plate/turnbuckle assembly.

I read somewhere that the two main advantages are:

 - better aerodynamics for the sailplan

 - almost as important, (or even more important), with the di-hedral they have, NOT having the mast weight to leeward once heeling is very important to reduce heeling moment.

I think rig inclined control systems are only allowed on Ultim class and 50 Orma class,  But not on Imoca even on the new 2018/2019 models.

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33 minutes ago, oceanwwgg said:

I think rig inclined control systems are only allowed on Ultim class and 50 Orma class,  But not on Imoca even on the new 2018/2019 models.

I wrote ORMA 60, not IMOCA. (Offshore Racing Multihull Association)

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Macif stopped in Cape Town to sort out something with the port foil? Sobedo 3 stopped in Cape Town for well.. we all know... so Actual Leader is up to second and only has to out last one more foiling breakdown to get first :lol: Go Yves!

https://www.brestatlantiques.com/actualites/macif-l-arret-actual-leader-deuxieme-robben-island

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The Mod 70s were designed with ability to cant their masts. The rake or AoA of their C foils was only adjustable in the harbour. They had put a row of screws through different holes to change the AoA.

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12 hours ago, D Wayne G said:

Aaaaaand, it provides lift. Lots of lift, in the same way a windsurfer rig provides lift.

i am not sure exactly what you are saying.., but, while years back, some people did think that on windsurfers the inclined rig was a factor in achieving high speeds.., nobody thinks that anymore.

in fact today windsurfers are not typically sailed with rigs inclined to windward, by any significant amount.

here is a video from a few days ago of a 52kt run - the rig is not really inclined to weather

https://www.facebook.com/worldofwindsurf/videos/423443808571410/

 

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Below a Ronand Lucas (Banque populaire team manager), about the race, boats and the future Banque Pop :

 

https://www.ouest-france.fr/sport/voile/brest-atlantiques-ronan-lucas-banque-populaire-xi-sera-plus-volant-plus-ambitieux-6615702

He says that the new Banque pop should be out end 2020 or beginning spring 2021.

That it should be "more flying and more ambitious" than the previous one (using the data/feedback from the previous), but not "extreme".

Also talking the UFO, and the failure on the race.

(but suggesting that these UFO would be due to more trash in the sea, for me they clearly must be more fish or whales, it was clearly the case for Kito in last VG, and there are not so many big "objects" that are half submerged (they either sink or fully floating), especially for instance where Sodebo broke his rudder)

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Interesting piece of information given by Thomas Coville in the video below:

They have hit unknown objects THREE times, on the THREE rudders...

They are checking the integrity of the boat and should make a decision to continue or not later this evening...

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, us7070 said:

i am not sure exactly what you are saying.., but, while years back, some people did think that on windsurfers the inclined rig was a factor in achieving high speeds.., nobody thinks that anymore.

in fact today windsurfers are not typically sailed with rigs inclined to windward, by any significant amount.

here is a video from a few days ago of a 52kt run - the rig is not really inclined to weather

https://www.facebook.com/worldofwindsurf/videos/423443808571410/

 

Canting / inclining any rig works ... The clip of the speed run is virtually 3/4 or down wind and rig is canted slightly to windward but more so aft due to the angle or attack
Moths ....12 / 14 / 16 / 18 footers all sail with heel to windward 

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3 hours ago, Laurent said:

Interesting piece of information given by Thomas Coville in the video below:

They have hit unknown objects THREE times, on the THREE rudders...

They are checking the integrity of the boat and should make a decision to continue or not later this evening...

 

 

 

The large swimming animals of the world have never experienced 40 knot razor knives before.

If we had foils on our passage down the Central American coast we would have clobbered a whole

lot  more turtles than we did, and I know we hit at least five at a grand speed of 8 knots. Sleeping

turtles, whales and resting sharks have no ability to react in time... and if they do dive they get

to the depth of the foil just in time for it to arrive.

More than 60% of the biomass of large swimming things in our oceans is gone. Blessing for

the foilers, curse for the rest of us. We might re-think the impact of these craft given the

evidence that is mounting daily.

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1 hour ago, oysterhead said:

We might re-think the impact of these craft given the evidence that is mounting daily.

Huh? So, fast, ocean crossing, foiling yachts are bad for marine biomass???

You may want to tackle human consumption of marine biomass first!!!

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I'd say there's simply more junk floating around, and that they are hitting mostly that stuff.....

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37 minutes ago, Keith said:

I'd say there's simply more junk floating around, and that they are hitting mostly that stuff.....

I'm sure that's true but it''s also the case that 18-tonne boats moving on foils at 35+ knots are a new thing and the forces are huge.  They hit things, they will break.  Simple. Methinks it may be time to consider skegs for the rudders at least, I doubt anything can be done to protect the foils, but as a foiler, the weight and drag penalty of any protection will compromise flight time.

It may prove to be the case that on a risk-weighted basis a large foiler isn't fit for purpose as a RTW record chasing proposition - just too likely that it will be compromised somewhere around the track.

 

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I'm not sure, how new, 35 knot trimarans are, as a matter of fact they hold many long distance ocean records.

Human junk floating around is a real problem.

I wouldn't want to race across the N.Pacific to Japan. I'm sure you'd hit some of the Fukushima shit that's still floating around out there.

But 35+ knot multihulls are not necessarily a new thing...

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