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Hi, this is my first post and Im asking for help in understanding how on earth the protest committee could rule that it took the protestor 15 minutes to find the frist reasonable opportunity to raise the protest flag. 

The incident  happened at the start of an offshore race in drifting conditions between 4 and 8 knots both boats were heavy displacement 44 footers.

The Protestor's reason for the delay was that the pitman was standing in the companionway and no one else could get past to the chart table downstairs to get the flag until the spinaker was set 15mins after the start.

Our evidence was that we clearly heard the 3 hails of "you have no rights" but there was no hail of protest.

The commitee found that we aknowledged a Hail (presumably of protest) but the protestors evidence was that we ignored his hail of protest  and our evidence was that there was no hail protest. 

I strongly disagreed with the commitee's decision and asked to reconsider 3 times. The commitee has told me they will be refering me to the dicisplinary and misconduct comitteee for refusing to accept their ruling of validity in the first instance and insisting that they  reconsider 3 times; and for being too "agressive" in my cross examination of the protestor.

I have redacted the names of the boats and the club posted the protest and decision below.

I feel I have a good chance of appealing this decision and welcome any comments or advice. Thanks

 

 

protest Redacted .pdf

protest decision redacted.pdf

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Anyone who has been in "the room" within the last few years KNOWS the first thing a PC does is establish weather or not a protest is valid before they even hear it. The most important of those facts a

The real question is did you ever call "mast abeam" at any time.  That would have settled it right then.

wow. You are completely wrong. There are a very limited set of circumstance where the hail and flag raising are not required to be almost immediate ( substantial damage, injury, etc ), navigation, sai

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1 hour ago, andy59 said:

 

I strongly disagreed with the commitee's decision and asked to reconsider 3 times. The commitee has told me they will be refering me to the dicisplinary and misconduct comitteee for refusing to accept their ruling of validity in the first instance and insisting that they  reconsider 3 times; and for being too "agressive" in my cross examination of the protestor.

I have redacted the names of the boats and the club posted the protest and decision below.

I feel I have a good chance of appealing this decision and welcome any comments or advice. Thanks

 

 

protest Redacted .pdf

protest decision redacted.pdf

It took 3 weeks to hear the protest?

if you think the decision was wrong then appeal 

https://www.ussailing.org/competition/rules-officiating/appeals/#targetText=The%20Racing%20Rules%20of%20Sailing,appeals%20committee's%20decision%20or%20procedures.

 

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1 hour ago, andy59 said:

Hi, this is my first post and Im asking for help in understanding how on earth the protest committee could rule that it took the protestor 15 minutes to find the frist reasonable opportunity to raise the protest flag. 

The incident  happened at the start of an offshore race in drifting conditions between 4 and 8 knots both boats were heavy displacement 44 footers.

The Protestor's reason for the delay was that the pitman was standing in the companionway and no one else could get past to the chart table downstairs to get the flag until the spinaker was set 15mins after the start.

Our evidence was that we clearly heard the 3 hails of "you have no rights" but there was no hail of protest.

The commitee found that we aknowledged a Hail (presumably of protest) but the protestors evidence was that we ignored his hail of protest  and our evidence was that there was no hail protest. 

I strongly disagreed with the commitee's decision and asked to reconsider 3 times. The commitee has told me they will be refering me to the dicisplinary and misconduct comitteee for refusing to accept their ruling of validity in the first instance and insisting that they  reconsider 3 times; and for being too "agressive" in my cross examination of the protestor.

I have redacted the names of the boats and the club posted the protest and decision below.

I feel I have a good chance of appealing this decision and welcome any comments or advice. Thanks

 

 

protest Redacted .pdf

protest decision redacted.pdf

There isn't a fixed time limit, nor is display of the flag stated to be "as soon as possible." The hail should be immediate and display of the flag "at the first reasonable opportunity" meaning that the PC should consider that a vessel could have other higher priorities in the heat of the moment.

With hoisting a spinnaker and possibly the needs of navigating/maneuvering the vessel, I can see 15 minutes being reasonable.

When you saw the flag, did you do turns or did you act like a dick and decide that you could get away with breaking the rules because they took too long?

FB- Doug

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How about there was an incident of one boat going upwind and one boat going downwind. The fouled boat (going downwind) hails "protest" and flew a flag from their backstay inside 15 seconds. The protested (upwind) boat agrees they heard the hail but claims they did not see the flag until the upwind boat caught the downwind boat. The protest committee throws out the protest for being invalid because the at-fault boat claims they did not see the flag.

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4 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

How about there was an incident of one boat going upwind and one boat going downwind. The fouled boat (going downwind) hails "protest" and flew a flag from their backstay inside 15 seconds. The protested (upwind) boat agrees they heard the hail but claims they did not see the flag until the upwind boat caught the downwind boat. The protest committee throws out the protest for being invalid because the at-fault boat claims they did not see the flag.

The protested not seeing the flag doesn't make any difference the protested would have to claim (and back up) that the protester did not fly it as soon as reasonable possible. The rules don't require that the proteseted boat sees the flag, just that the protester flies it.

 

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13 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

.When you saw the flag, did you do turns or did you act like a dick and decide that you could get away with breaking the rules because they took too long?

THIS,

If your argument is that you did not know you broke a rule and because they didn't fly the flag in time you lost your opportunity to put it right, fair enough. (The appeal could still find that the PC was not wrong to allow the protest)

If you are saying that you knew you broke the rule but decided not to take a penalty because the other boat didn't get the protest right then you are a dick. You may be in the right, but you are a dick who is in the right. And your appeal may cement that reputation. (even if you win the appeal)

 

 

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9 minutes ago, JohnMB said:
17 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

How about there was an incident of one boat going upwind and one boat going downwind. The fouled boat (going downwind) hails "protest" and flew a flag from their backstay inside 15 seconds. The protested (upwind) boat agrees they heard the hail but claims they did not see the flag until the upwind boat caught the downwind boat. The protest committee throws out the protest for being invalid because the at-fault boat claims they did not see the flag.

The protested not seeing the flag doesn't make any difference the protested would have to claim (and back up) that the protester did not fly it as soon as reasonable possible. The rules don't require that the proteseted boat sees the flag, just that the protester flies it.

Zackly. The whole set of rules governing the hail and flag are to give the protested boat an opportunity to acknowledge their foul and take a penalty turn. It's been weaponized into a sword instead of a shield.

Years ago I raced in a very hotly competitive and farily popular one-design class, going to regattas with fairly big numbers all over the eastern US. Several top competitors liked to push the rules, but we frequently ended up crossing tacks with a guy who -always- tried to bulldoze other boats and -always- claimed the protest was invalid.

After he avoided a couple of well-deserved DSQs like this, he fouled us on a simple port-starboard right after the start, and I hailed PROTEST so loudly (warning my crew to cover their ears) that campers on shore heard me. He started the same bullshit and not only got a DSQ but got laughed at by all present.

Who was being a dick? Well both of us, but he started it!

FB- Doug

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22 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

The PC should consider that a vessel could have other higher priorities in the heat of the moment.

 Provided that the very limited circumstances set out in 61.1(a)(4) apply, then yes.

33 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

With hoisting a spinnaker and possibly the needs of navigating/maneuvering the vessel, I can see 15 minutes being reasonable.

Hoists, drops, etc. are not a valid reason for delay in complying with 61.1(a).

And even if they were, 15 minutes (!!!) for a hoist ... seriously?

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Just now, Svanen said:
37 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

With hoisting a spinnaker and possibly the needs of navigating/maneuvering the vessel, I can see 15 minutes being reasonable.

Hoists, drops, etc. are not a valid reason for delay in complying with 61.1(a).

 

Well, I admit it was some years ago that I completed the judges' qualification; but it was quite literally a textbook example that a foul could occur in the immediate approach to the windward or leeward mark, and setting or dousing the spinnaker is an all-hands job that DOES take priority over displaying a protest flag.

The hail "Protest" must be immediate, though

FB- Doug

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3 minutes ago, Svanen said:

 Provided that the very limited circumstances set out in 61.1(a)(4) apply, then yes.

Hoists, drops, etc. are not a valid reason for delay in complying with 61.1(a).

 

Yes they are, there is a case about this somewhere. You are not expected to pull someone off a job in sailing the boat to fly the flag

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Well, I admit it was some years ago that I completed the judges' qualification; but it was quite literally a textbook example that a foul could occur in the immediate approach to the windward or leeward mark, and setting or dousing the spinnaker is an all-hands job that DOES take priority over displaying a protest flag.

The hail "Protest" must be immediate, though

FB- Doug

Going below looking for a protest flag does not work

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25 minutes ago, Svanen said:

 Provided that the very limited circumstances set out in 61.1(a)(4) apply, then yes.

Hoists, drops, etc. are not a valid reason for delay in complying with 61.1(a).

 

Read the appeals. In fact the relevant appeal deals with exactly the situation you describe. 

Signed, someone who has appealed (and won) a US Sailing appeal on the timely display of the flag. 

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3 minutes ago, Saint Greta said:

Read the appeals. In fact the relevant appeal deals with exactly the situation you describe. 

Signed, someone who has appealed (and won) a US Sailing appeal on the timely display of the flag. 

oh o wrong sock 

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In addition to US Sailing Appeal 67, see also Sail Canada Appeal 63:

”There was contact between Xand Y in a J/24 class race while rounding the windward mark. X displayed her protest flag ‘within ten minutes of the incident’. The protest committee ruled that X did not display her flag at the first reasonable opportunity... X appealed, maintaining that problems caused while clearing away the spinnaker had prevented faster action, and in any event, that the time taken was more like five minutes after the incident.

”A J/24 with a crew of five would have to provide compelling reasons why her protest flag was not displayed within a very few seconds after an incident. X provided no such reasons; a five-minute delay is completely unacceptable”.

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32 minutes ago, Svanen said:

US Sailing Appeal 67 suggests otherwise.

No it doesn't, teh appeal hinges on:

Quote

While he did so, for approximately 20 seconds, the two other crew members were unoccupied.

If those two crew members had been occupied then its is legitimate for them to continue what they are doing rather than getting the flag displayed.

 

Appeal 82 is even more clear on this:

Quote

A boat is not obligated to give priority to displaying a protest flag at the cost of the crew failing to act to keep the boat under control or delaying a spinnaker set.

 

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6 minutes ago, Svanen said:

A J/24 with a crew of five would have to provide compelling reasons why her protest flag was not displayed within a very few seconds after an incident. X provided no such reasons; a five-minute delay is completely unacceptable”.

Implication being that there should have been someone available to put the flag out. If the J24 can show that there was not, (see appeal 82) then its is legitimate for her to delay until someone is free to do that task.

The critical test here is was it possible to fly the flay earlier without pulling crew off an essential task. It is totally acceptable to delay flying the flag if all the crew is occupied with a spinnaker hoist. But not if one crew member is sat doing nothing while the rest of the crew is hoisting.

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

One word.  APPEAL.

You have a time limit to request a copy of the judges completed protest form. Get a copy of it, feel free to redact the names, club, sail no's.  Then post it here. We can guide you through a successful appeal.

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As posted above, if you feel that the protest is invalid and that the PC was improper in their action, appealing is the correct approach.  There's no point in getting in a pissing contest with the PC.

If you violated a rule and failed to exonerate yourself, RAF.

 

The unavoidable thread drift about protest validity:  

image.png.b52d5d9590ca8d5e80cf166f0853992b.png <> image.png.5edeaa2faa0fe21ef3af05e1915cc7cf.png

"WTF are you doing?" <> "You have violated a rule and I PROTEST!"

"After the pit guy finishes mixing a rum & coke for the skipper" <> "Immediately"

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Barring a serious collision where all hands were trying to save the vessel, or where a serious injuries have occurred an all hands are tending to the injured, 15 mins is excessive...

If you knew you fouled, and failed to do turns, just because the protest wasn't lodged in a timely manner, well then, you deserve to be tossed anyway...

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

There isn't a fixed time limit, nor is display of the flag stated to be "as soon as possible." The hail should be immediate and display of the flag "at the first reasonable opportunity" meaning that the PC should consider that a vessel could have other higher priorities in the heat of the moment.

With hoisting a spinnaker and possibly the needs of navigating/maneuvering the vessel, I can see 15 minutes being reasonable.

When you saw the flag, did you do turns or did you act like a dick and decide that you could get away with breaking the rules because they took too long?

FB- Doug

wow. You are completely wrong. There are a very limited set of circumstance where the hail and flag raising are not required to be almost immediate ( substantial damage, injury, etc ), navigation, sail raising, etc and not included. Having to go below to get the flag is too long. You should always have your flag ready to fly immediately.  

it never cease to amaze me how people who know nothing about a subject are willing to make statements like these. Often mistaken but never in doubt. Learn the rules and read the cases if you're going to comment. 

Yes, appeal. 

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7 minutes ago, surf nazi said:

wow. You are completely wrong. There are a very limited set of circumstance where the hail and flag raising are not required to be almost immediate ( substantial damage, injury, etc ), navigation, sail raising, etc and not included. Having to go below to get the flag is too long. You should always have your flag ready to fly immediately.  

it never cease to amaze me how people who know nothing about a subject are willing to make statements like these. Often mistaken but never in doubt. Learn the rules and read the cases if you're going to comment. 

Yes, appeal. 

I agree with everything you wrote except Im not clear what you meant about "sail raising not included"

Appeal 82 is very clear https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Appeals-Book-for-2017-2020.pdf

Hiking past the offset and raising the kite are legitimate reasons to delay showing the protest flag. (12-20seconds or so), assuming all the crew are involved (as noted in case 67).

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1 hour ago, JohnMB said:

No it doesn't, teh appeal hinges on:

If those two crew members had been occupied then its is legitimate for them to continue what they are doing rather than getting the flag displayed.

 

Appeal 82 is even more clear on this:

 

So you're saying that "Some fat ass who won't get out of the companionway" is a legitimate excuse?

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3 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

So you're saying that "Some fat ass who won't get out of the companionway" is a legitimate excuse?

No I'm not. In fact I explicitly agreed with Doug about this earlier in the thread.

My post was about whether all the crew were occupied with the maneuver. Not about whether some crew member could access the flag.

 

I'm also interested in the question of whether you thought you had broken a rule or not at the time of the incident, when they hailed protest.

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Anyone who has been in "the room" within the last few years KNOWS the first thing a PC does is establish weather or not a protest is valid before they even hear it. The most important of those facts are:

"Was the word "Protest" hailed" is one.

"Was a protest flag flown" is another.

"Was the protest flag flown as soon as possible" is another.

In my experience, (and good or bad I've seen the room enough in the last few years) "As soon as possible" is like 15 seconds max.  If you are there to race you better have a flag on your backstay ready to deploy, (or at least in your pocket).  "Had to go below and get it out of the chart table" doesn't fly, (literally and figuratively).

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2 hours ago, VWAP said:

Going below looking for a protest flag does not work

Was protested once on a BS boat overtaking me and then calling for room inside the circle. The protest chair asked how long before they flew the flag and they came back that they timed it - 35 seconds to retrieve it from the nav table.

Protest dismissed.

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6 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

No I'm not. In fact I explicitly agreed with Doug about this earlier in the thread.

My post was about whether all the crew were occupied with the maneuver. Not about whether some crew member could access the flag.

 

I'm also interested in the question of whether you thought you had broken a rule or not at the time of the incident, when they hailed protest.

I completely disagree with Doug. 

However, in the true Corinthian spirit of the sport if you know you have fouled a boat or hit a mark, (even if no one sees you) you should do your turn/s. 

However, if you choose not to and someone does not protest you properly then you get a pass.  While that may suck, and makes the rule breaker a bit of a dick it does not change that fact. 

That's why I always, always say.  If you think someone has fouled and you feel like it's worth protesting over Yell protest and fly the flag THEN.  You can always choose not to FILE the protest later if you wish, but you can't go back and get a protest out of a situation where you never properly protested in the first place.

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4 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I completely disagree with Doug. 

 

I agreed with him on this with ref to your comment.

2 hours ago, VWAP said:

Going below looking for a protest flag does not work

2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Agreed

I've also seen a big of acrimony over what constitutes a "protest flag."

FB- Doug

I don't think anyone here is saying you are allowed time to go below to get the flag.

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4 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

I agreed with him on this with ref to your comment.

I don't think anyone here is saying you are allowed time to go below to get the flag.

My bad.  Misunderstood.  Carry on.  I'll do my turn now.

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What the rules, appeals and sanity may indicate and what a protest committee may allow for a flag and how prominent, and quickly it's displayed are often different. 

We had a protest lodged against us earlier this year where the boat protesting took ~5 mins to find and display a red jacket. The PC (regional level judges) accepted the protest. We won on merits. Tactician who's an NJ and NU brought up with USSAILING rules committee who agreed we would have handily won on appeal had it be necessary. 

I had one disallowed a few years back, when I was fouled, and had my red shirt off and tied to the mizzen shrouds within 30 secs all the while hailing loudly. Same Club, different committee made up of members. 

As a result, I've bought RED spinnaker cloth from SAILRITE and 3/4 " adhesive backed velcro. You can cut 9 20"x24" CODE B flags from 2 yrds of 60" where the velcro runs down the 20" side so that when folded around a shroud it's pretty near a perfect 20" CODE B.

Cuz I am a nice guy, I donated 8/9 of them to the club.

We keep it in the cockpit ready to deploy if necessary. 

 

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2 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

What the rules, appeals and sanity may indicate and what a protest committee may allow for a flag and how prominent, and quickly it's displayed are often different. 

We had a protest lodged against us earlier this year where the boat protesting took ~5 mins to find and display a red jacket. The PC (regional level judges) accepted the protest. We won on merits. Tactician who's an NJ and NU brought up with USSAILING rules committee who agreed we would have handily won on appeal had it be necessary. 

I had one disallowed a few years back, when I was fouled, and had my red shirt off and tied to the mizzen shrouds within 30 secs all the while hailing loudly. Same Club, different committee made up of members. 

As a result, I've bought RED spinnaker cloth from SAILRITE and 3/4 " adhesive backed velcro. You can cut 9 20"x24" CODE B flags from 2 yrds of 60" where the velcro runs down the 20" side so that when folded around a shroud it's pretty near a perfect 20" CODE B.

Cuz I am a nice guy, I donated 8/9 of them to the club.

We keep it in the cockpit ready to deploy if necessary. 

 

I don't have any on my 505.Never needed one.

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1 minute ago, fastyacht said:

I don't have any on my 505.Never needed one.

I wish I hadn't, but since I was egregiously fouled by our local SOB, I choose to invest a few bucks.

He was fortunate that I was able to avoid hitting him, as a B-40 on a starboard reach hitting  a 5.5 Meter close hauled on port will probably be pretty final for the 5.5, and require a few minutes of buffing on the B-40.  

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7 hours ago, andy59 said:

I have redacted the names of the boats and the club posted the protest and decision below.

Missed the redaction in the drawing.

https://www.rolexsydneyhobart.com/the-yachts/2019/another-painkiller/

https://www.southportyachtclub.com.au/results/2019/od/201920ODWINTER/14RGrp1.htm?ty=42893

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Clearly one of the most stupid rules in the book.

So try this one and this was with an international jury.

Hobart start line

Big boat above does the dive from above under to get underneath at about  5 seconds to go near the pin

does not make it and take out the back three feet of the boat including the runner base

big crash

one crew overboard , hole in back of boat and water coming in and rig unstable

broken frames in back of boat and in line rig

get crew on board, have to sail down course a bit as can t turn as was in front row just about

gert sails down etc

protest dismissed as flag not flown in time

BTW ANYONE KNOW WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME AN APPEAL WAS ALLOWED IN AUSTRALIA

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, lydia said:

Clearly one of the most stupid rules in the book.

So try this one and this was with an international jury.

Hobart start line

Big boat above does the dive from above under to get underneath at about  5 seconds to go near the pin

does not make it and take out the back three feet of the boat including the runner base

big crash

one crew overboard , hole in back of boat and water coming in and rig unstable

broken frames in back of boat and in line rig

get crew on board, have to sail down course a bit as can t turn as was in front row just about

gert sails down etc

protest dismissed as flag not flown in time

BTW ANYONE KNOW WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME AN APPEAL WAS ALLOWED IN AUSTRALIA

 

 

 

I remember that one - International Jury that don’t know the RRS properly and preferred to find a reason to dismiss a protest than a reason to hear it

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Case 1. Did you realize immediately after the incident that you fouled the "protesting" Boat? If yes, Did you do your turns if the option was available to you? No turns, did you retire during or withdraw from the race after the finish? This is your proper course of action if you know you fouled. 

Case 2. You did not realize at the time you broke a rule. You now know you broke a rule. You withdraw from the race.

Case 3. You did not break a rule. The protest committee first determines if the protest is valid. (this is what you dispute) Then determines facts. Then applies the rules. Then determines any penalties if appropriate. If you think the protest committee made an error you appeal.

Now it seems like Case 1 or 2 applies to you. You don't seem to dispute the facts of the AP boat having to alter course while you attempted to remedy your OCS. 

You may be able to appeal the protest because there are published cases which state having to delay to go find the flag in the cabin is not the first reasonable opportunity. So if you are successful in your appeal and still know that your actions on the course fouled the other boat your proper action after winning the appeal would be to retire, (so why appeal?) 

 

7 hours ago, andy59 said:

 

 

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I have a red flag in a bag (with velcro closure) tied to the backstay. Small line through velcro - Protest? Pull the line and flag displays immediately

If op broke a rule and is unhappy with PC decision he can of course appeal - pretty stupid  to stand in front of US sailing and say so though.

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Particularly since the PC chose to document the "15 min?" comment on the decision form it would be nice if they found a fact or made a conclusion as to why 15 minutes constituted "first reasonable opportunity" to fly the flag in this specific incident. But they didn't. So there's your appeal, the original PC did not properly interpret "first reasonable opportunity", should have found the protest invalid and you should be restored to your finishing place.

But:

Continuing to "disagree strongly" multiple times with a PC after they've deliberated, delivered their decision and closed the hearing isn't proper procedure and I don't think you're ever going to get a PC to "change their minds" that way. If you think you have new evidence, request a reopening. If you think the PC's decision is wrong, appeal. 

If your strong disagreement crossed over into "breach of good manners" (for example, if you were visibly angry and/or used foul language) then that was misconduct and it was entirely proper for the PC to report a violation of rule 69.

Bottom line is that it looks like you broke a rule, deserved to be disqualified and you were. Given the circumstances you may be able to win an appeal, but is that really the sportsmanlike thing to do?

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8 hours ago, andy59 said:

Hi, this is my first post and Im asking for help in understanding how on earth the protest committee could rule that it took the protestor 15 minutes to find the frist reasonable opportunity to raise the protest flag. 

The incident  happened at the start of an offshore race in drifting conditions between 4 and 8 knots both boats were heavy displacement 44 footers.

The Protestor's reason for the delay was that the pitman was standing in the companionway and no one else could get past to the chart table downstairs to get the flag until the spinaker was set 15mins after the start.

Our evidence was that we clearly heard the 3 hails of "you have no rights" but there was no hail of protest.

The commitee found that we aknowledged a Hail (presumably of protest) but the protestors evidence was that we ignored his hail of protest  and our evidence was that there was no hail protest. 

I strongly disagreed with the commitee's decision and asked to reconsider 3 times. The commitee has told me they will be refering me to the dicisplinary and misconduct comitteee for refusing to accept their ruling of validity in the first instance and insisting that they  reconsider 3 times; and for being too "agressive" in my cross examination of the protestor.

I have redacted the names of the boats and the club posted the protest and decision below.

I feel I have a good chance of appealing this decision and welcome any comments or advice. Thanks

 

 

protest Redacted .pdf

protest decision redacted.pdf

Look it is easy- next time just spend 35k and show up with a lawyer and a Queens Council, and have the QC lecture the jury on their jurisdiction and ensure that the actual incident isn’t addressed. 

And also understand that just because the sailing office is locked up at 2 am it is still open if a member of the RC is still wandering around the marina somewhere. Ignore what the SI’s say - just make your own rules up. 

Appeals? Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha. 

Good luck with that.

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27 minutes ago, Lynch said:

If op broke a rule and is unhappy with PC decision he can of course appeal - pretty stupid  to stand in front of US sailing and say so though.

Very stupid if the protest took place in Australia. :)

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7 hours ago, JohnMB said:

THIS,

If your argument is that you did not know you broke a rule and because they didn't fly the flag in time you lost your opportunity to put it right, fair enough. (The appeal could still find that the PC was not wrong to allow the protest)

If you are saying that you knew you broke the rule but decided not to take a penalty because the other boat didn't get the protest right then you are a dick. You may be in the right, but you are a dick who is in the right. And your appeal may cement that reputation. (even if you win the appeal)

 

 

.. 

This ++100

If I read the protest correctly, you were returning to the line after being over early, and while turning back, forced the protesting vessel to alter course to avoid you.

 

You had zero rights.. you should have done turns right away, or at least gone to the bar afterwards, bought the bloke a jug and scored RAF.

 

If you did none of these things then you (the OP) are the dick.

 

oh: and ps, your redactions suck. It took 5 min to work out who and where.

 

EDIT: I may be a bit harsh here, because I'm only reading the protester's view of things.  Was their avoidance/change of course obvious to you? If so, then my above statements stand.

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1 hour ago, Tremolino23 said:

Case 1. Did you realize immediately after the incident that you fouled the "protesting" Boat? If yes, Did you do your turns if the option was available to you? No turns, did you retire during or withdraw from the race after the finish? This is your proper course of action if you know you fouled. 

If this is the situation and the protest is valid, then the PC could also have found, supported by Case 138, that if OP knew he broke rule 22.1 and failed to take a penalty he also broke rule 2.

Which could turn his DSQ into a DNE.

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58 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

and ps, your redactions suck. It took 5 min to work out who and where.

How did you do it?? 

Did you zoom in or just read the names from the diagram?

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the protestors excuse for taking 15 minutes to raise the protest flag is a joke, and it sounds like Andy is wanting to get off on a technicality. 
 

I would suspect that the protest committee used a very loose interpretation on the flag timing because it was probably obvious to the protestee that they should have taken the appropriate action to cover their arse.

 

If Andy wants to persist, perhaps he should ask LB to represent him.

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5 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I completely disagree with Doug. 

However, in the true Corinthian spirit of the sport if you know you have fouled a boat or hit a mark, (even if no one sees you) you should do your turn/s. 

However, if you choose not to and someone does not protest you properly then you get a pass.  While that may suck, and makes the rule breaker a bit of a dick it does not change that fact. 

That's why I always, always say.  If you think someone has fouled and you feel like it's worth protesting over Yell protest and fly the flag THEN.  You can always choose not to FILE the protest later if you wish, but you can't go back and get a protest out of a situation where you never properly protested in the first place.

This is correct. Hail and display the protest flag at the first reasonable opportunity (the exact wording in the rules). You can hail immediately, pausing only to inhale.

What are you disagreeing with me about (or is it some other Doug?)?

FB- Doug

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8 hours ago, Svanen said:
8 hours ago, JohnMB said:

Yes they are, there is a case about this somewhere. You are not expected to pull someone off a job in sailing the boat to fly the flag

US Sailing Appeal 67 suggests otherwise.

Not to my reading of it.

image.png.518998bb459fa3d5225307512a541fa3.png

Nor Dave Perry's, may I recommend the 2016 to 2020 edition

FB- Doug

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Protest should tossed based on poor handwriting... It's almost impossible to decipher what's been written..

If you made a breach of the rules and don't exonerate yourself but the appropriate number if turns, you should be dsq'ed.. 

It all comes down to whether you knew it not... No hail of protest.. no flag... Ridiculous... Immediately is within a minute of last maneuver, that being a start, a hoist whatever... 

You've must have fouled then big time if they had to spend 15minutes, sorting out their gear and hoisting their Spinnaker on 44 foot boat..

I'm missing the op's write up on how things played out... That's more interesting than a flag than imo was waved to late..

 

And also, you heard them cry no room/no rights? But not protest..if they had  yelled protest, would you have done turns?

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9 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

There isn't a fixed time limit, nor is display of the flag stated to be "as soon as possible." The hail should be immediate and display of the flag "at the first reasonable opportunity" meaning that the PC should consider that a vessel could have other higher priorities in the heat of the moment.

With hoisting a spinnaker and possibly the needs of navigating/maneuvering the vessel, I can see 15 minutes being reasonable.

When you saw the flag, did you do turns or did you act like a dick and decide that you could get away with breaking the rules because they took too long?

FB- Doug

Fair call but after by the time 15 minutes had passed we returned to the start line and restarted and were now so far away from the protestor that we had no chance of seeing a protest flag, if indeed one was actually hoisted at that point. 

The start was in near drifting contitions and it was never clear to me the boats were on a collision course. There was no hail of protest so I felt confident there was no breach of the rule. Had there been a hail  of protest or a a flag hoisted I would have definitely done the penalty turns just to avoid the risk of a DSQ. 

 

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13 minutes ago, andy59 said:

Fair call but after by the time 15 minutes had passed we returned to the start line and restarted and were now so far away from the protestor that we had no chance of seeing a protest flag, if indeed one was actually hoisted at that point. 

The start was in near drifting contitions and it was never clear to me the boats were on a collision course. There was no hail of protest so I felt confident there was no breach of the rule. Had there been a hail  of protest or a a flag hoisted I would have definitely done the penalty turns just to avoid the risk of a DSQ. 

 

So you started 15 minutes after the start signal?

Most clubs have a 4 minute rule for not starting however a quick check of the Southport Yacht Club SI's shows the following:

11.5 A boat starting later than ten (10) minutes after her starting signal will be scored Did Not Start without a hearing. This changes rule A4. 

~ Fact 1: By their own admission Impulse  X started more than 10 minutes after her starting signal.

~ Fact 2: The RC erred in not scoring Impulse X DNS

Conclusion: Impulse X is to be scored DNS for Race 14.

Problem solved.

Oh and the un-redacted protest form is on the site too - https://www.southportyachtclub.com.au/websitefiles/Sailing/2019 2020 Sailing Season/Protest Hearings/20190929 - Another Painkiller vs Impulse X %234.pdf?_t=1569794625

Do you still want to claim it's not SE Queensland?

 

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7 hours ago, JohnMB said:

No I'm not. In fact I explicitly agreed with Doug about this earlier in the thread.

My post was about whether all the crew were occupied with the maneuver. Not about whether some crew member could access the flag.

 

I'm also interested in the question of whether you thought you had broken a rule or not at the time of the incident, when they hailed protest.

Well at least one of the crew was busy videoing the incident so i guess he or she might have been able to squeeze down the companionway to fetch the flag.

 

1 hour ago, Kaptajnen said:

Protest should tossed based on poor handwriting... It's almost impossible to decipher what's been written..

If you made a breach of the rules and don't exonerate yourself but the appropriate number if turns, you should be dsq'ed.. 

It all comes down to whether you knew it not... No hail of protest.. no flag... Ridiculous... Immediately is within a minute of last maneuver, that being a start, a hoist whatever... 

You've must have fouled then big time if they had to spend 15minutes, sorting out their gear and hoisting their Spinnaker on 44 foot boat..

I'm missing the op's write up on how things played out... That's more interesting than a flag than imo was waved to late..

 

And also, you heard them cry no room/no rights? But not protest..if they had  yelled protest, would you have done turns?

yep would have done the turns 

 

2 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

 

.. 

This ++100

If I read the protest correctly, you were returning to the line after being over early, and while turning back, forced the protesting vessel to alter course to avoid you.

 

You had zero rights.. you should have done turns right away, or at least gone to the bar afterwards, bought the bloke a jug and scored RAF.

 

If you did none of these things then you (the OP) are the dick.

 

oh: and ps, your redactions suck. It took 5 min to work out who and where.

 

EDIT: I may be a bit harsh here, because I'm only reading the protester's view of things.  Was their avoidance/change of course obvious to you? If so, then my above statements stand.

Fair call, however, in this instance I was  not sure I had broken the rule and the lack of a protest hail convinced me that protestor saw the incident in the same light as me.

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1 minute ago, andy59 said:

Well at least one of the crew was busy videoing the incident so i guess he or she might have been able to squeeze down the companionway to fetch the flag.

 

yep would have done the turns 

 

Fair call, however, in this instance I was  not sure I had broken the rule and the lack of a protest hail convinced me that protestor saw the incident in the same light as me.

You should have a pretty good shot in the appeal based on that alone.

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11 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

So you started 15 minutes after the start signal?

Most clubs have a 4 minute rule for not starting however a quick check of the Southport Yacht Club SI's shows the following:

11.5 A boat starting later than ten (10) minutes after her starting signal will be scored Did Not Start without a hearing. This changes rule A4. 

~ Fact 1: By their own admission Impulse  X started more than 10 minutes after her starting signal.

~ Fact 2: The RC erred in not scoring Impulse X DNS

Conclusion: Impulse X is to be scored DNS for Race 14.

Problem solved.

Oh and the un-redacted protest form is on the site too - https://www.southportyachtclub.com.au/websitefiles/Sailing/2019 2020 Sailing Season/Protest Hearings/20190929 - Another Painkiller vs Impulse X %234.pdf?_t=1569794625

Do you still want to claim it's not SE Queensland?

 

No we were ruled OCS at the start then returned to the start line to start. The fifteen minutes based on the protestor's statement on the protest form.

"How did you inform the protestee.....? By hailing : When? 11.00 hrs

by displaying a red flag: When? 11.15 hrs

Trying not to identify the parties or the club for obvious reasons.

 

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7 minutes ago, andy59 said:

Well at least one of the crew was busy videoing the incident so i guess he or she might have been able to squeeze down the companionway to fetch the flag.

 

yep would have done the turns 

 

Fair call, however, in this instance I was  not sure I had broken the rule and the lack of a protest hail convinced me that protestor saw the incident in the same light as me.

The real question is did you ever call "mast abeam" at any time.  That would have settled it right then.

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6 minutes ago, andy59 said:

No we were ruled OCS at the start then returned to the start line to start. The fifteen minutes based on the protestor's statement on the protest form.

"How did you inform the protestee.....? By hailing : When? 11.00 hrs

by displaying a red flag: When? 11.15 hrs

Trying not to identify the parties or the club for obvious reasons.

 

 

52 minutes ago, andy59 said:

Fair call but after by the time 15 minutes had passed we returned to the start line and restarted and were now so far away from the protestor that we had no chance of seeing a protest flag, if indeed one was actually hoisted at that point. 

The start was in near drifting contitions and it was never clear to me the boats were on a collision course. There was no hail of protest so I felt confident there was no breach of the rule. Had there been a hail  of protest or a a flag hoisted I would have definitely done the penalty turns just to avoid the risk of a DSQ. 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, andy59 said:

Had there been a hail  of protest or a a flag hoisted I would have definitely done the penalty turns just to avoid the risk of a DSQ. 

Not to mention losing that Sheep station.

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39 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

So you started 15 minutes after the start signal?

Most clubs have a 4 minute rule for not starting however a quick check of the Southport Yacht Club SI's shows the following:

11.5 A boat starting later than ten (10) minutes after her starting signal will be scored Did Not Start without a hearing. This changes rule A4. 

~ Fact 1: By their own admission Impulse  X started more than 10 minutes after her starting signal.

~ Fact 2: The RC erred in not scoring Impulse X DNS

Conclusion: Impulse X is to be scored DNS for Race 14.

Problem solved.

Oh and the un-redacted protest form is on the site too - https://www.southportyachtclub.com.au/websitefiles/Sailing/2019 2020 Sailing Season/Protest Hearings/20190929 - Another Painkiller vs Impulse X %234.pdf?_t=1569794625

Do you still want to claim it's not SE Queensland?

 

Only the Tweed river sailing, rowing and bowls club is more South East than them.

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15 minutes ago, andy59 said:

No we were ruled OCS at the start then returned to the start line to start. The fifteen minutes based on the protestor's statement on the protest form.

"How did you inform the protestee.....? By hailing : When? 11.00 hrs

by displaying a red flag: When? 11.15 hrs

Trying not to identify the parties or the club for obvious reasons.

 

Yep - plenty of lawyers on the 'Fabulous' Gold Coast.

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15 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Not to mention losing that Sheep station.

Just found the series results - jeesus it really was sheep station stuff having sailed in one of the previous 13 races Impulse X would have come stone motherless last in the series if they had only finished the last race!

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27 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Just found the series results - jeesus it really was sheep station stuff having sailed in one of the previous 13 races Impulse X would have come stone motherless last in the series if they had only finished the last race!

No drops?

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