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On 4/30/2021 at 8:55 AM, Upp3 said:

It seems that UK has problem getting deals. Now with Norway and fish: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-56932551

Here the news from Norwegian side;
https://www.fiskeribladet.no/politikk/forhandlingene-kollapset-uk-vil-sitte-igjen-som-en-av-taperne/2-1-1003713

Basically the UK wanted to make the agreement much worse for Norway, so they could claim a "win" for Brexit. And Norway said "better no deal than a bad deal, bye". Sovereignty is a double-edged sword, and Britain keeps on sending its idiots abroad to negotiate.

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Old, but gold. Explains so much of what Whyne and Jambalaya wax lyrical about. And the guy was a mate of Boris.   A.A. Gill (Sunday Times journalist and food critic) writing about Brexit bef

No way I'm going to PA. This was a top thread, now it's fucked. Thank you fucking idiots.

I was thinking for the last few days that  as a pro union lifelong Alliance voter I should respond to this post but turning on the radio this morning and hearing Mike Nesbitt made me decide to act.

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1 hour ago, LeoV said:

Here the news from Norwegian side;
https://www.fiskeribladet.no/politikk/forhandlingene-kollapset-uk-vil-sitte-igjen-som-en-av-taperne/2-1-1003713

Basically the UK wanted to make the agreement much worse for Norway, so they could claim a "win" for Brexit. And Norway said "better no deal than a bad deal, bye". Sovereignty is a double-edged sword, and Britain keeps on sending its idiots abroad to negotiate.

The UK is in a weak position as they have to make up for the lost opportunities in the EU, so I imagine that some countries will say no to get the UK come back begging soon after.

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2 hours ago, LeoV said:

Basically the UK wanted to make the agreement much worse for Norway, so they could claim a "win" for Brexit. And Norway said "better no deal than a bad deal, bye". Sovereignty is a double-edged sword, and Britain keeps on sending its idiots abroad to negotiate.

 

35 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

The UK is in a weak position as they have to make up for the lost opportunities in the EU, so I imagine that some countries will say no to get the UK come back begging soon after.

The penny doesn't drop with the silly fools that Norway being in the EEA and single market will align with the EU.

The same goes for the Faroe Is as a self governing part of Denmark, while not in the EEA, they have Denmark take the lead for negotiating their fishing rights lumped in with the EU.

That only leaves Iceland and as the 60/70's showed they can look after themselves when it comes to fishing rights and see themselves part of the Nordic 5.

Yeah Brexit is great for UK fishing.

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And fishing was a Brexit reason... a big one. Take back control over our fishing waters.

In short;
Before joining EU, there was no EEZ and decreasing fish stocks.
During their time in the EU, EEZ defined, quota's imposed and fish stocks revived. UK shafted small fishing fleet.
During Brexit, fish was promised to be a success of Brexit, revival of the UK small fleet fishing industry, no foreigners.
After Brexit, happy fish but no happy fisherman to be seen. More mackerel, less cod for the UK. Still foreigners fishing.
Lose lose situation. No unicorns or sunlit uplands.

History;
Before joining EU the North Sea fish stocks were in trouble due to over caching.
Everyone was fishing everywhere, except in 6 M zone of most countries, but not in the Channel.
There was no 200 M EEZ and UK fought against Icelandic claim of a 12 M zone in the cod wars.
After Iceland won that 12 M, UK declared 200 M, and UN followed that up in UNCLOS. Everyone a 200 M zone, if possible...
But migratory fish stocks have to be shared.
This all happened around the time UK joined the EU, 1973. But EEZ only declared in 1976.

Inside the EU, EEZ established and fish stock restored due to quota's. Fishing access to foreigners regulated. It was not perfect, but not bad. Spats occurred every few years, but in general it worked.
UK as only EU country decided to swap and sell quota to EU vessels and big UK based fishing industry. And fucked their small fishing fleet with that.

During Brexit, fish was promised to be a success of Brexit, revival of the UK small fleet fishing industry, no foreigners.

Now Brexit is done, and for a few years there will be a kind of stable regulation.

Result;
Still foreigners fishing, even within 6 M zone in the Channel.
Overall less cod, more mackerel for UK fishing fleet.
More costly access to export market of the EU. Due to red tape. No quota swapping with EU vessels, not an ounce.
Not a happy UK fisherman has been on the news for months. Maybe there is non ? There must be one at least ????
No Farage, Johnson or Gove visiting fishing ports waiving a UK flag and posting images of happy folks.

So after Brexit, happy fish, but not a happy UK fisherman. Not getting what was promised and losing Norway as fishing area after 500 years is a big blow.
If Greenland and Iceland (still talking) follow Norway... then a knock out for much of the UK long distance fleet.
Same for the EU, lost quota and quota swapping. 10 to 25% loss in UK waters sourced fish. But we talk about 175 M in catch, not that much as it is shared between 8 coastal countries.

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^^^^ You nailed that Leo

3 hours ago, LeoV said:

No Farage, Johnson or Gove visiting fishing ports waiving a UK flag and posting images of happy folks.

The lead up to next election what do they do?

Visit fishing electorates and have Thatcher like images but it will be rotting fish not fruit on the 6.00 news & papers?

Or stay well away and the local Tory member spruiks wearing Hazmat?

Add up the number of fishing electorates and that is the start of a swing.

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One thing is Whyane won't be chiming in here going through this list and explaining it away.

"Scandal upon scandal: the charge sheet that should have felled Johnson years ago"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/30/scandal-charge-sheet-johnson-wallpaper-lying?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

 

Actually will fob it off, but not list anything, just like his Brexit advantages list. :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

^^^^ You nailed that Leo

The lead up to next election what do they do?

Visit fishing electorates and have Thatcher like images but it will be rotting fish not fruit on the 6.00 news & papers?

Or stay well away and the local Tory member spruiks wearing Hazmat?

Add up the number of fishing electorates and that is the start of a swing.

Sadly the fishing industry still blames everyone else rather than the pricks they elected. "Norway gave EU free access, so why should we pay?" they claim. Ignorant fuckwits.

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A quote from Jonathan Swale.
 
Admittedly, a Norwegian version of events relating to the fishing in Norway, but many of us will recognise more than a ring of truth in this, as we have seen the illegal and snidey way our pathetic government have handled various EU negotiations, the way they’re screwing up trade talks with Australia and New Zealand, and now the fishing fiascos.
What a global embarrassment we are! Ashamed to be British at times, utterly ashamed.
1. March 16th 2021 - Norway, the EU and the UK agree on North Sea access and quotas, in which Norway and Britain will continue with each other's pre-Brexit access and quotas arrangement.
2. March 25th 2021 - Norway and the UK sit down to formalise this agreement bilaterally, at which point the UK informs Norway that it didn't really mean what it said before and that actually it now wants to restrict access for Norwegian vessels in British waters.
3. April 2nd 2021 - Norway officially informs Britain that this means everyone must get back together then and revisit the March 16th agreement. The UK responds by saying that it has nothing further to add and will not speak to the EU again until 2022.
4. April 28th 2021 - Norway officially informs Britain that it cannot even begin a year-long access haggle at this stage of the fishing calendar and must simply work around this new stance by the UK side. In the meantime it was nice knowing you, but please stay out of our waters too until you can make up your minds if you want to negotiate in good faith or not.
5. April 29th 2021 - the UK government announces officially to its own people that it's having "ongoing" talks with "stubborn" but "friendly" Norwegians, who are nevertheless now the "baddies" and are depriving UK citizens of their fish'n'chips.
6. April 30th 2021 - the Norwegian government announces a compensation scheme for inconvenienced Norwegian trawler companies and has opened talks with the EU concerning possible legal action against the UK for reneging on an agreement within three weeks (a new record, even for Johnson's outfit). As a courtesy, it has invited Britain back in late summer to see if they have learnt anything about negotiating in the meantime.
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1 hour ago, cms said:
What a global embarrassment we are! Ashamed to be British at times, utterly ashamed.
1. March 16th 2021 - Norway, the EU and the UK agree on North Sea access and quotas, in which Norway and Britain will continue with each other's pre-Brexit access and quotas arrangement.....
...........
6. April 30th 2021 ......As a courtesy, it has invited Britain back in late summer to see if they have learnt anything about negotiating in the meantime.

 

CM don't forget this from last year before that bizzare timeline to make it even more bloody bizzare.

 

30 Sept 2020 - GOV.UK Press Release

"UK and Norway sign historic fisheries agreement"
"The UK signs first fisheries agreement since leaving the EU and first as an independent coastal state"'..

 

8 Dec 2020 - Britain’s Cod Awful Fishing Fiasco

"Government failed to negotiate new fishing quotas with Norway in time for the end of the Brexit transition period on 1 January".

 

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UK, the rowdy hooligan neighbour.

One Norwegian government official; they did not want a deal, they wanted Brexit propaganda.

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The chart you show appears to have come from the Kirkella, based in Hull, which is the "pride of the UK distant waters fleet", owned by UK Fisheries Ltd, it catches a large proportion of what becomes the fish in fish and chips. Well ... it did, until now, without access to its main fishing areas for cod and haddock. By the way, the proudly named UK Fisheries Ltd is as British as Leo ....
 
(UK Fisheries Ltd is co-owned by the Icelandic company Samherji hf and the Dutch Parlevliet en van der Plas, and two companies, North Atlantic Fishing Co. and Valiant Trawlers (counted together in the text), are both owned by Netherlands based company Cornelis Vrolijk/Jaczon.)
 
There is a flip side, and you wonder who has been bribing who? My Shetland compatriots with their 8 shiny new 70m+ pelagic trawlers have a larger quota for mackerel now!
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40 minutes ago, cms said:

My Shetland compatriots with their 8 shiny new 70m+ pelagic trawlers have a larger quota for mackerel now!

Meanwhile in the new sovereign island nation, mackerel is still on the menu

image.png.19b68994cd2dcc529c1372d9bf077401.png

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Well maybe the tables have turned and Brexit delivers 180,000 new jobs to Hartlepool ex port ex steel works etc that Thatcher murdered .....

...then I thought Minister for Patient Safety (amoungst other things) Nadine Dorries plagued by scandals could not lie straight in bed.

The good town of Hartlepool better get cracking and build some homes.

It has only 92,000 thousand people. She has tripled the total population and workforce probably by 6 times.

Must be election season.

IMG_20210505_003335.jpg

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Greed!

Fishermen in Shetland today welcomed the rejection of a deal with Norway.

The failure of the UK and Norway to strike a new fishing deal had been criticised by the UK industry, as it means fleets will have no access to Norway’s waters,  known for their cod stocks. 

However, the Shetland Fishermen’s Association (SFA) said the deal had been brokered by the European Union and  heavily skewed against the local pelagic and demersal fleets.

SFA chief executive Simon Collins said: “This bring a long-awaited end to past practice in which the EU used to hand substantial amounts of Scottish quota to Norway largely to the benefit of a single foreign multinational that claimed to be English.

“Since the announcement that there will be no deal, we have had predictable squealing from that one company. This in no way reflects the mood of the Scottish family-owned fleet.

“In practical terms, Norway’s loss of access to our waters this year will remove a substantial presence of their pelagic fleet during the autumn mackerel fishery in particular.”

SFA chairman and whitefish skipper James Anderson added that the inability of Norwegian vessels to fish for demersal stocks in the UK zone would lift the pressure of a highly active gillnet and longliner fleet to the east of Shetland.

“We are convinced that mutually advantageous annual agreements on access and quota transfers can be struck with Norway in the future. But Norway has to understand that we are not going to cave in, Commission-style, to the detriment of Scottish businesses. It is far better to make that clear at the outset, and we are glad that this has been done.

“We appreciate the efforts of the highly influential Scottish negotiators, who worked closely with industry and listened carefully to our concerns throughout four months of very difficult talks.”

In stark contrast, however, UK Fisheries chief executive Jane Sandell said the inability of UK fishing fleets to access Norwegian waters was a “disgrace and a national embarrassment”.

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How he remarks about the EU you know he is a hardcore Brexiteer.

Meanwhile France threatens to cut off power to Jersey in post-Brexit fishing row.

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39 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Today sad day in NI

Bobby Sands 40th anniversary of his death aged 27 in Long Kesh after 66 days on hunger strike. The month before was elected as Westminister MP.

image.png.6fc4e8b9ec043604c2b60fab20ae0c36.png

I won't get into any debate about the wrongs and rights of the different sides of The Troubles in NI but, having lived in the Republic at the time and so being possibly closer to the siutation than some on this site, I recommend not taking either side now.

It's a no-win position.

(I may regret even saying this much.)

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47 minutes ago, Black Sox said:

It's a no-win position

Sox not sure what you mean?

A no=win for for who?

The protocol doesn't discriminate if implemented properly

The GFA is not going away and cast in stone

The largest political change is the DUP taking a big step to the right, but something of their own making so will have to accept where the cards fall

SF don't own reunification and are in no hurry to accelerate border poll because if premature it will more likely fail. Not to be confused with pushing hard for it to be openly discussed which Dublin is resisting.

Alliance a bona-fide home for any feeling disfranchised by the two majors 

Can't think of a time where the future has been so unclear, let alone where any battle lines can be drawn to see where winners or losers fall     

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1 hour ago, Black Sox said:

I won't get into any debate about the wrongs and rights of the different sides of The Troubles in NI but, having lived in the Republic at the time and so being possibly closer to the siutation than some on this site, I recommend not taking either side now.

It's a no-win position.

(I may regret even saying this much.)

Spoken like a true West Brit.

 

Its a real shame you had to suffer the daily reports by Charlie fookin Mitchell about the needless acts of aggression perpetrated by those pesky paddies in the six. It must really have been an inconvenience to you sipping Coffey outside Bewelys 

I mean, why couldn’t they and the blacks in the US just shut up and accept their lot.

 

Right?

 

 

 

 

 

Wanker!!!

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34 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Sox not sure what you mean?

A no=win for for who?

The protocol doesn't discriminate if implemented properly

The GFA is not going away and cast in stone

The largest political change is the DUP taking a big step to the right, but something of their own making so will have to accept where the cards fall

SF don't own reunification and are in no hurry to accelerate border poll because if premature it will more likely fail. Not to be confused with pushing hard for it to be openly discussed which Dublin is resisting.

Alliance a bona-fide home for any feeling disfranchised by the two majors 

Can't think of a time where the future has been so unclear, let alone where any battle lines can be drawn to see where winners or losers fall     

Jack, I mean that any discussion/debate/argument about the rights and wrongs of The Troubles will probably not end in any meaningful agreement between the parties.

I was referring to the past, by now the distant past for some but not all, whereas the present and the future are the subject of this thread.

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5 minutes ago, Black Sox said:

Jack, I mean that any discussion/debate/argument about the rights and wrongs of The Troubles will probably not end in any meaningful agreement between the parties.

I was referring to the past, by now the distant past for some but not all, whereas the present and the future are the subject of this thread.

On that subject there was an interesting piece on the news last night in which young adults from both sides were discussing how the older generation from both sides have let them down, with high youth unemployment and poor prospects for any young people in NI, regardless of their association. The irish side suggested that, with the poor support of NI by Westminster and the booming RoI economy, maybe they should try joining Ireland for a bit, but neither group wanted any discussion to include anyone over 45 as they felt the older generation are too stuck in the past, on both sides.

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47 minutes ago, hump101 said:

On that subject there was an interesting piece on the news last night in which young adults from both sides were discussing how the older generation from both sides have let them down, with high youth unemployment and poor prospects for any young people in NI, regardless of their association. The irish side suggested that, with the poor support of NI by Westminster and the booming RoI economy, maybe they should try joining Ireland for a bit, but neither group wanted any discussion to include anyone over 45 as they felt the older generation are too stuck in the past, on both sides.

Maybe we were watching different channels...

”British values”

**snicker**

 

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That's the previous evening, last night they spoke with republican young adults too.

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6 minutes ago, Sea warrior said:

”British values”

Actually, those loyalist kids showed a penchant for clinging to illogical premises and lies about their historical context, which sounds very much like current British values as espoused by their government in Westminster, so don't snicker at them!!!

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4 hours ago, Black Sox said:

I won't get into any debate about the wrongs and rights of the different sides of The Troubles in NI but, having lived in the Republic at the time and so being possibly closer to the siutation than some on this site, I recommend not taking either side now.

It's a no-win position.

(I may regret even saying this much.)

 

3 hours ago, Sea warrior said:

Spoken like a true West Brit.

Its a real shame you had to suffer the daily reports by Charlie fookin Mitchell about the needless acts of aggression perpetrated by those pesky paddies in the six. It must really have been an inconvenience to you sipping Coffey outside Bewelys 

I mean, why couldn’t they and the blacks in the US just shut up and accept their lot.

Right?

Wanker!!!

 @jack_sparrow See what I mean?

And I didn’t even have to specify which side I was coming from for this to flow.

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2 hours ago, hump101 said:

On that subject there was an interesting piece on the news last night in which young adults from both sides were discussing how the older generation from both sides have let them down, with high youth unemployment and poor prospects for any young people in NI, regardless of their association. The irish side suggested that, with the poor support of NI by Westminster and the booming RoI economy, maybe they should try joining Ireland for a bit, but neither group wanted any discussion to include anyone over 45 as they felt the older generation are too stuck in the past, on both sides.

That bit about over 45s being excluded makes perfect sense to me but only if you’re looking forwards.

If you want, as some do, to live in the “glory days” of their past with all the bitterness and grudges it carries, then keep on keeping on.

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36 minutes ago, Black Sox said:

 

 

And I didn’t even have to specify which side I was coming from for this to flow.

Yes you absolutely did.

By not standing up to the bigotry you by default condone it, there is no middle ground and no grey area. Bigotry is bigotry.

And, Loyalist “culture” is bigotry by another name.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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who'd have thunk this could happen ? Britain sending navy ships to Jersey to "monitor" the situation in which froggie fishermen are thinking of blocking off St Helier, stopping Jersey fishers to load off in france and in the froggie parliament there was a proposal to cut off power to Jersey if they don't stop with their new licensing, restriction and red tape scheme, for decades fishing overthere has been side by side and as could be expected it's now one against the other, the joys of brexit

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11 hours ago, hump101 said:

Actually, those loyalist kids showed a penchant for clinging to illogical premises and lies about their historical context,

Plenty of them but interestingly are only the more better off.

There was no ideology happening in rioting last month. Only people who linked it to sectarianism was Brit media.

The poorest and most disadvantaged in NI  Covid locked up for months, loyalist only mostly the young went on a bender.

Nat/Rep nowhere to be seen.

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13 hours ago, Black Sox said:
14 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Sox not sure what you mean?

A no=win for for who?

The protocol doesn't discriminate if implemented properly

The GFA is not going away and cast in stone

The largest political change is the DUP taking a big step to the right, but something of their own making so will have to accept where the cards fall

SF don't own reunification and are in no hurry to accelerate border poll because if premature it will more likely fail. Not to be confused with pushing hard for it to be openly discussed which Dublin is resisting.

Alliance a bona-fide home for any feeling disfranchised by the two majors 

Can't think of a time where the future has been so unclear, let alone where any battle lines can be drawn to see where winners or losers fall     

Jack, I mean that any discussion/debate/argument about the rights and wrongs of The Troubles will probably not end in any meaningful agreement between the parties.

I was referring to the past, by now the distant past for some but not all, whereas the present and the future are the subject of this thread

So I went to all that trouble and all you wanted to really do was open up a sectarian debate to push your loyalist barrow.

Next time say that up front.

BTW I see Arlene is leaving the party too. If Poots gets leadership, denial continues and DUP will be gone at next election.

Good riddance. As neither participating and not signing GFA they should have been denied Stormont seats until they did.

Paisley Snr saw the error and corrected. The party then shafted him. Even Atilla the Hun Arlene they have knifed to make her look like a liberal now.

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8 hours ago, Albatros said:

Britain sending navy ships to Jersey

UK beats chest. UK whines. UK climbs down.

Sequencing. Exit Payment. Cherry Picking. No Deal. NI Border. Passporting. Gibraltar. Fishing. Diplomatic Status. Every  one has been a English climb down.

A few days of blocking Calais will do the trick.

EU commission has also written to the UK warning that the restrictions on licenses contravene the two sides' trade deal. So it is more fundamental then French going wild on a goose hunt.

Some French boats already protesting around St Helier, not blocking.
afbeelding.png.1fa69db6e320a7034b6dfa73f8cabf59.png

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Crap ....you got caught out trying to hide the obvious.

I didn't bite, Sea did.

You may have read something into my words that wasn’t intended to be there. That’s poor communication on my part. All I meant was that, IN MY OPINION, bringing up the old debate about the rights and wrongs leads to metaphorical wounds being re-opened, and it applies to ALL sides.

I tried to keep my communication neutral and it didn’t work so, for the record, I am no loyalist.

Not engaging further on this issue.

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46 minutes ago, Black Sox said:

I tried to keep my communication neutral and it didn’t work so, for the record, I am no loyalist.

Not engaging further on this issue

If you are not a supporter then your reply to my Bobby Sands post has you as a supporter of somebody and it certainly didn't sound rep/nat and for the record my reply didn't have any flavour of picking a side, so if you are pissing off, you are pissing off. 

16 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:
17 hours ago, Black Sox said:

It's a no-win position

Sox not sure what you mean?

A no=win for for who?

The protocol doesn't discriminate if implemented properly

The GFA is not going away and cast in stone

The largest political change is the DUP taking a big step to the right, but something of their own making so will have to accept where the cards fall

SF don't own reunification and are in no hurry to accelerate border poll because if premature it will more likely fail. Not to be confused with pushing hard for it to be openly discussed which Dublin is resisting.

Alliance a bona-fide home for any feeling disfranchised by the two majors 

Can't think of a time where the future has been so unclear, let alone where any battle lines can be drawn to see where winners or losers fall 

 

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Margaret Thatcher Plaza sign in Madrid has been replaced by Bobby Sands Plaza on the 40th anniversary of his passing.

Pretty fitting as she finally conceded to some reinstatement of their Special Category Status, but only after Sands and 9 others had gone the full distance.

IMG_20210507_000812.jpg

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8 hours ago, Black Sox said:

You may have read something into my words that wasn’t intended to be there. That’s poor communication on my part. All I meant was that, IN MY OPINION, bringing up the old debate about the rights and wrongs leads to metaphorical wounds being re-opened, and it applies to ALL sides.

I tried to keep my communication neutral and it didn’t work so, for the record, I am no loyalist.

Not engaging further on this issue.

But there is no debate.

The issue is no more of a debatable issue than the history of the persecution and discrimination against the blacks over here is a debatable issue or that the ‘virtues’ or lack thereof of the kkk is a debatable issue. These are self evident facts, far removed from the clutches of propaganda and with the benefit of hindsight.

The DUP in particular and the whole statelet in general were born out of bigotry and the wish to discriminate against and subjugate natives in Ireland and remain so to this day.

Any subjugated person or people have every right to to defend themselves from oppressors and if the state refuses to act on their behalf then the state is part of the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I've got a feeling this has been raised before??

"Belgium may use 17th-century charter to keep British fishing rights" 

https://www.euronews.com/2020/12/14/belgium-may-use-17th-century-charter-to-keep-british-fishing-rights

it has, but last I heard about it, just before brexit, was a uni perfesser noting that this old agreement could be legally challenged with success ... but then he added that apart from legalities the brits would be in a rather awkward position negating age-old agreements when they themselves are hellbent on uphoiding or using similar pre and medieval examples to their own favour

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9 hours ago, Sea warrior said:

Any subjugated person or people have every right to to defend themselves from oppressors and if the state refuses to act on their behalf then the state is part of the problem

The state were part of the SOLUTION ........for about 5 minutes 

In mid 1969 the British Army in response to sectarian riots & unionist attacks on civil rights marches went there to support the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) & assert the authority of the British government in NI. The Catholic community were overjoyed as the RUC role was diminished & the coppers support of unionists stopped.

However a curfew imposed less than a year later on the Catholic Falls Rd area involving attacks, abuse, gassing & damage by the Army ended all that. They didn't leave until 2007, 37 years later.

_____________

Best bigotry and defend themselves story.

In the 70's Mrs Brolly like her teacher husband, well known musician, pro republic but not a nationalist (opposed the IRA) from town of Dungiven in Co Derry was in her car one day in early 70's. Was bringing 2 very young kids home & stopped by a British Army roadblock outside town.

She refused to get out of her car and have she, the kids and car searched. The lineup of cars got longer, crowd gathered to see what was holding them up. 

Finally the Army officer, glaring at her said, "All right be on your bloody way, BUT remember WE know where you live".

She stared him in the eye quickly replying; "BUT Officer remember, WE ALSO know where you live too".

Mr Brolly the young teacher spent 3 years interned in Long Kesh without charge or trial.

She became the first ever Sinn Féin Mayor and first female Mayor of Limavady between 2003 and 2004, the same council Mr Brolly was elected to in 2001 and he also a MLA.

In 2005, Mr Brolly was arrested and questioned by police over a 1972 car bomb incident. He mounted a legal challenge that was settled out of court.

All because a wee woman with 2 wee kids nearly 50 years ago answered back to a bigoted Brit bully.

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In a blockbuster week

LEX GREENSILL will be hauled before British parliament over the collapse of Greensill Capital. 

Former PM David Cameron is also being called before the Treasury Committee.

Though pretty weird the sitting PM isn't hauled before anyone.

IMG_20210508_004852.jpg

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Mr Brexit is still trying to slice up the EU. 

"Says 3rd the message this all risks sending is that the precautionary principle is more important than some of the commitments made by the EU under the Protocol such as maintaining everyday life in NI as much as possible."

But that is only looking through the prism of ignoring NI is already a door half open to the EU via RoI.PLUS ignoring that NI has access to the EU single market

Why should the EU open that door wider at its own risk?

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And, in other news .... despite Bumface, the Tories have taken the Hartlepool by-election with a 16% swing from Labour who had held it for ages ...

Counting in Scotland still underway and final result late tomorrow, but so far the SNP have taken 1 seat from Labour and held 24, whilst the LIb Dems have held 3.

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6 minutes ago, cms said:

Counting in Scotland still underway and final result late tomorrow, but so far the SNP have taken 1 seat from Labour and held 24, whilst the LIb Dems have held 3.

They've taken one from the Conservatives (Ayr) too, now, but by a very thin margin. Quite likely that they will lose a corresponding list seat there, with no overall gain.

Conservatives have also held their safest seat in the borders, albeit with a substantially reduced majority... so the SNP may be in contention to gain a List seat there. No overall pattern showing up, yet.

Cheers,

                W.

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14 hours ago, cms said:

And, in other news .... despite Bumface, the Tories have taken the Hartlepool by-election with a 16% swing from Labour who had held it for ages ...

OK we have 3 years before the GE in Hartlepool.

Who would you rather be the Labor or Tory potential new MP lining up in front of people that were told this in May 2021? 

BumFace went to Hartlepool with Dorries too for this announcement.

On 5/5/2021 at 12:55 AM, jack_sparrow said:

Well maybe the tables have turned and Brexit delivers 180,000 new jobs to Hartlepool ex port ex steel works etc that Thatcher murdered .....

...then I thought Minister for Patient Safety (amoungst other things) Nadine Dorries plagued by scandals could not lie straight in bed.

The good town of Hartlepool better get cracking and build some homes.

It has only 92,000 thousand people. She has tripled the total population and workforce probably by 6 times.

Must be election season.

IMG_20210505_003335.jpg

 

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On 5/8/2021 at 2:33 AM, cms said:

Counting in Scotland still underway and final result late tomorrow, but so far the SNP have taken 1 seat from Labour and held 24, whilst the LIb Dems have held 3.

SNP have got up but falling one short of majority.

Independence now gets hotter.

Some heat transfer next door in NI & reunification.

Where does UK de-unification rank in Brexit fails?

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On 5/7/2021 at 6:33 PM, cms said:

And, in other news .... despite Bumface, the Tories have taken the Hartlepool by-election with a 16% swing from Labour who had held it for ages ...

Counting in Scotland still underway and final result late tomorrow, but so far the SNP have taken 1 seat from Labour and held 24, whilst the LIb Dems have held 3.

Brexit has truly split the country in 2 different different countries, the Brexit side of the Tory party has been very successful at redrawing the lines in their favour. There are unintended consequences they won't like though, in the constituency I was living in, it is now gone 50% green : https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/greens-elections-bristol-jonathan-bartley-b1844615.html

I am not surprised and still feel a bit Bristolian. :)

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58 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Bump

Anyone willing to #1 ??

Depending on your viewpoint, it could be success or failure?

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A combination of Brexit dishonesty, subsequent deafness to everyday reality, lives and jobs, and a night and day comparison between Bumface and Nicola's Covid-19 handling, have all added fuel to the Scottish independence argument.

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4 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

But either way boom or bust isn't it a Brexit fail?

It could be argued that de-unification is just a natural extension of the Brexit process. Everyone is better on their own?

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39 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

But either way boom or bust isn't it a Brexit fail?

The double standards on this one is quite amusing. Pro Brexit people don't want to give Scottish people an independence referendum. Kind of ironic. 

I do think however that Brexiteers and Scottish independence types are cut from the same cloth, independence at any cost.  Nicola Sturgeon has made it ostensibly about EU membership, but since she was pro independence before Brexit, that's just the convenient reason of the moment.

You'll never see anyone in the SNP say that the referendum was a bad idea because they want their own one, and as much as they complain about Brexit, secretly they love it as it helps push their own cause. 

Not sure if Scotland will choose independence, but economically for them it will make Brexit look like a walk in the park. 

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1 hour ago, MiddayGun said:

The double standards on this one is quite amusing. Pro Brexit people don't want to give Scottish people an independence referendum. Kind of ironic. 

I do think however that Brexiteers and Scottish independence types are cut from the same cloth, independence at any cost.  Nicola Sturgeon has made it ostensibly about EU membership, but since she was pro independence before Brexit, that's just the convenient reason of the moment.

You'll never see anyone in the SNP say that the referendum was a bad idea because they want their own one, and as much as they complain about Brexit, secretly they love it as it helps push their own cause. 

Not sure if Scotland will choose independence, but economically for them it will make Brexit look like a walk in the park. 

I agree about the double standards but disagree about the "cut from the same cloth". It may apply to some longstanding, hard-core Nats but there are many Scots who see England as the one seeking Independence.

What's being sought is a choice between a Union with the RoK and a Union with the rest of Europe. A few decades ago Scotland had more in common with RoK than Europe but these days that's not quite so clear: many  (not all!) Scots want to live in a modern, progressive European Nation with a focus on sustainability and other touchy-feely issues: look at the incorporation of the UNCRC, for example, in the context of the Children's Panel system. The direction of travel is not the same as that south of the border. It's no coincidence that the Green party has increased its representation at Holyrood.

Cheers,

             W.

 

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The vast majority of Scoxit supporters are simply fed up with the fact that the Westminster government is never representative of their political views, and doesn't have to care. That is the reason to seek independence.

The loss of EU membership is a perfect example of this, and is also tipping the balance for more people to choose to leave the UK. EU membership was used by the unionists as a threat in the previous Scottish referendum - if you vote leave, you'll lose EU membership. Now it is the only way to recover membership.

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

I agree about the double standards but disagree about the "cut from the same cloth". It may apply to some longstanding, hard-core Nats but there are many Scots who see England as the one seeking Independence.

What's being sought is a choice between a Union with the RoK and a Union with the rest of Europe. A few decades ago Scotland had more in common with RoK than Europe but these days that's not quite so clear: many  (not all!) Scots want to live in a modern, progressive European Nation with a focus on sustainability and other touchy-feely issues: look at the incorporation of the UNCRC, for example, in the context of the Children's Panel system. The direction of travel is not the same as that south of the border. It's no coincidence that the Green party has increased its representation at Holyrood.

Cheers,

             W.

 

Have to disagree on this one, while I'm sure there are swing voters for whom the EU is the big issue for them voting, the SNP existed before Brexit, there was a referendum and a good few voted for independence before Brexit. 
If the choice was just about RoK or Europe then there would have been no need for the first referendum. 

While I agree that 'Scoxit' (is that a thing now) politicians are on the whole less self serving by far than many Westminster ones that doesn't mean they aren't blinkered, this Brexit thread is full of people (correctly) pointing out the many economic downsides of Brexit, but for Scotland it is far worse, they're already a net recipient of funds, but the loss of that is just the start when they have to create their own currency or be beholden to the bank of England, a land border with England means that they won't be joining Schengen unless they stop free movement with the rest  of the UK which would cause another huge economic hit. 

So without an economic case then its simply being run on case of 'we think we can govern ourselves better' which is a valid reason, but also one derided in the case of Brexit. 

This is getting longwinded and I've got to get back to something else, my basic point is that even if the UK was still in Europe the SNP would still want independence (and did before we left), even if they got everything they asked for they'd still want independence, that's why I say independence for independences sake, no different from dye in the wool brexiteers. Hence cut from the same cloth. 

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The economics of an independent Scotland are very much open to debate. For so long we have heard about the "basket case" and the big subsidy from south of the border, but a little research leads to some interesting questions, and if the SNP can unite the population sufficiently behind a well defined and explained plan, then with guts and determination I would not write the country off as a viable independent nation, particularly within Europe.

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9 minutes ago, MiddayGun said:

Have to disagree on this one, while I'm sure there are swing voters for whom the EU is the big issue for them voting, the SNP existed before Brexit, there was a referendum and a good few voted for independence before Brexit. 
If the choice was just about RoK or Europe then there would have been no need for the first referendum. 

It wasn't then but is now. The decision taken in 2014 was to stay within the UK and the EU. That option is no longer available to Scots, despite voting solidly for it in both 2014 and 2016...

 Hence the significant number of Scots who think that a further referendum is needed. 

Cheers,

              W.

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Yes, I agree with WG. GBrown's article ( https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/09/scots-independence-union-nationalism )  about three Scotlands yesterday is only right on the surface.   Indeed, I find the article promotes GB own organisation, rather than about what's best for the Scots.  Anyway...

The middle Scotland that GB identifies as being generally pro devolution can also be identified as pro Euro.  In devolution, governance looks a lot more Euro, cultural structures look more Euro, etc.  The smart play for Scottish independence is to push the Euro association.   If you look closely at the electoral map in Scotland, it is easy to see where the efforts for independence lie.  The borders will always be pro union.  But the middle of the road conservatives in the north east are movable on governance and culture arguments.

Lots has been written about the plumbing of EuScot, it is not as fraught with difficulty as brexit is.

 

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If there wasn't the safety net of the EU I have strong doubts Indy will happen on financial and difficulty of unraveling grounds.

Trouble is logic like that is exactly why the majority incl its promotors thought Brexit would fail.

A different PM and attitude in London could kill Indy in its tracks. If SNP had got a whopping majority probably not.

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36 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

A different PM and attitude in London could kill Indy in its tracks. If SNP had got a whopping majority probably not.

Indeed. The Union is theirs to lose.

 There's a majority for a referendum but not,  currently, for independence: no-one,  except perhaps the media, is in a hurry to hold it.

 Boris wants to wait until the momentum fades and the clamour dies, Nicola until it builds enough to carry the country over the line.

 We wait to see how the tale unfolds. 

Cheers, 

              W.

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

 Boris wants to wait until the momentum fades and the clamour dies, Nicola until it builds enough to carry the country over the line.

 

our local financial times this weekend remarked that there is some irony in the fact that what got Boris and the brexiteers their preferred outcome might be the very same thing that could lose them Scotland : nationalism being stronger than economical motivations to some these days

another thing, more or less a question : was just looking auntie beeb's 10 o'clock news where an SNP guy when asked if an eventual Scoxit (Scotchxit looks nicer but hard to pronounce) would not give new border problems, to which the man answered that the current go anywhere agreements (can't remember the abbreviation he used) would avoid that ... all ok, can believe that, but what if next Scotland would join EU ? but yes, even if that would happen, not first years for sure

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Well this has has just made me crack-up

Those that voted Tory and a 'freeport' in Hartlepool last week will be in a coma.

"Freeports" should now be understood as 'ports maybe free of exports' as countries start lining up saying they will NOT accept UK tax-free goods.

Another Brexit promise already down the gurgler......drowns. 

UK freeports blow as exporters face tariffs to 23 countries

'Ministers admit some markets will be subject to duties under post-Brexit deal'

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7 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Indeed. The Union is theirs to lose.

 There's a majority for a referendum but not,  currently, for independence: no-one,  except perhaps the media, is in a hurry to hold it.

 Boris wants to wait until the momentum fades and the clamour dies, Nicola until it builds enough to carry the country over the line.

 We wait to see how the tale unfolds. 

Cheers, 

              W.

Did you or do you mind sharing your opinions on independence for Scotland?
Do you think it would be a good idea or bad idea or if it is even possible?

 

Personally, I’m thinking that it is a pipe dream simply because Scotland is much more integrated with England economically and geographically than say the six counties. 
I cannot see how it would be possible to detangle the two countries.

 

 

Just my thoughts as a Paddy looking in.
 

 

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13 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Indeed. The Union is theirs to lose.

 There's a majority for a referendum but not,  currently, for independence: no-one,  except perhaps the media, is in a hurry to hold it.

 Boris wants to wait until the momentum fades and the clamour dies, Nicola until it builds enough to carry the country over the line.

 We wait to see how the tale unfolds. 

Cheers, 

              W.

I think we can all agree that Boris is a cunt. And I do think if Scots really want another ref then they should get it.

Personally I think it will be as big a mistake as I think Brexit is, economically more so, in other areas less so, but its your choice to make. 

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On 5/10/2021 at 8:14 AM, Panoramix said:

Brexit has truly split the country in 2 different different countries, the Brexit side of the Tory party has been very successful at redrawing the lines in their favour. There are unintended consequences they won't like though, in the constituency I was living in, it is now gone 50% green : https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/greens-elections-bristol-jonathan-bartley-b1844615.html

I am not surprised and still feel a bit Bristolian. :)

https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/west-england-mayoral-election-results-20554874

Quote

Labour's Dan Norris declared new West of England mayor

 

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I agree with both Sea & Midday

Scot Indy BAD idea BUT deserve a post Brexit Indy VOTE, if only recognising SNP dominance and being a Remain voting Union. Also can use poll to leverage a vote fail Plan B & some respect/better deal from London.

The other Remain Union NI has ALREADY been lost, BUT will take years to cement a border poll with clear/uncontested majority & with Dublins' support. Otherwise the Unionist shit fight continues.

Londons' views irrelevant and fuck them, they have had every chance going back 800 years and will never change.

6 hours ago, Sea warrior said:

Personally, I’m thinking that it is a pipe dream simply because Scotland is much more integrated with England economically and geographically than say the six counties. 
I cannot see how it would be possible to detangle the two countries.

 

1 hour ago, MiddayGun said:

I think we can all agree that Boris is a cunt. And I do think if Scots really want another ref then they should get it.

Personally I think it will be as big a mistake as I think Brexit is, economically more so, in other areas less so, but its your choice to make. 

 

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

BUT idea BUT deserve a post Brexit Indy vote, if only being a Remain voting Union. Also can use poll to leverage a vote fail Plan B & some respect/better deal from London.

Personally I would like to seem a lot more devolution across the whole of the UK as well as Scotland. Devo max as they were calling it a while back I believe. 
Being from the North of England (Yorkshire) I'm aware how frustrating to see the London centric approach of the government. 

Unfortunately with Labour seeming to be in disarray and losing their working class vote, I can't see anything other than a Conservative government for the next election. 

7 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The other Remain Union NI has ALREADY been lost, BUT will take years to cement a border poll with clear/uncontested majority & with Dublins' support. Otherwise the Unionist shit fight continues.

This is one I'm happy to see lost to be honest. Afterall I thought the long term goal for the good Friday agreement was reunification. I see this as more

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I'm not so clear cut on Scottish independence. The economic argument is not clear at all, Scotland is only a recipient of revenue from UK if the energy business is assumed to be UK, not Scottish, and this bias is becoming more stark as they move to renewables. Scotland has the potential to be energy-independent entirely from renewables, which places it in a similar position to Norway in the long term, with resulting potential to attract energy-hungry industry. It already has a strong financial sector.

However, I think one of the main benefits of independence for Scotland is that it will provide a roadmap for more sensible long term decisions for the remains of the UK. With both Scotland and NI in the EU (whether NI reunifies or not), links will remain stronger and a path to re-entry can be explored at smaller scale. The Brexiteer demographic is such that support is already dwindling and will continue to do so, but people will become used to their reduced circumstances over time and thus will be less influenced by Brexit when voting. Hence I do not see re-entry as a forgone conclusion in the future. Scotland independent and an EU member might aid this cause.

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1 hour ago, MiddayGun said:

Personally I would like to seem a lot more devolution across the whole of the UK as well as Scotland. Devo max as they were calling it a while back I believe. 
Being from the North of England (Yorkshire) I'm aware how frustrating to see the London centric approach of the government.

Yep and certainly Wales hasn't been rewarded for supporting Brexit.

1 hour ago, MiddayGun said:

Unfortunately with Labour seeming to be in disarray and losing their working class vote, I can't see anything other than a Conservative government for the next election.

Totally gobsmacked by this.

Starmer in winning leadership articulated clear policies, easy to understand by their traditional base with private sector being pushed aside in some areas, spending social support etc. They even got a leg up during the pandemic (where it is hard for oppositions to differentiate/shine) with things like the massive private sector screw ups like contact/trace, PPE contracts etc. Compared public sector Vax rollout doing a grand job.

Yet since pre pandemic those policies have gone MIA, nowhere to be seen.

So now a policy free party when Tories big spending Labor style, targeting seats with money, totally ignoring Covid/Brexit impacts and their traditional better money manager mantra discarded, so no budget repair etc.

If Starmer doesn't mend/allowed to mend some bridges internally and start pounding policy they will dump him. A year of catching BumFace out lying at PMQ's is not working. The public appear impervious to that and probably now would think it weird if Johnson stops bullshitting.

Labor hasn't a hope in hell getting up in 2024 if they don't get their shit together.     

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45 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Yep and certainly Wales hasn't been rewarded for supporting Brexit.

Totally gobsmacked by this.

**Snip**

Labor hasn't a hope in hell getting up in 2024 if they don't get their shit together.     

I'm now convinced that unfortunately Keir isn't the right man for the job. Or I should reiterate, he's the right man for the job, but I don't think he can convince enough voters that he is. 

As you say Conservatives **should** be struggling, scandal after scandal, deep set corruption, non stop lies from the very top down, but its the other way. 
I work in offshore renewables so I get to speak to a fair few people from different backgrounds and walks of life, & invariably, even today the working class feel that the last Labour government betrayed them, on immigration, fishing, benefits and a whole host of other issues and that Labour just 'don't believe in Britain'. There's also a perception that a vote for Labour is a vote to cancel Brexit helped by a large circulation of memes / videos / pictures that you won't see online necessarily but get circulated through whatsapp group chats and the like. 

Combine that with the collapse of support in Scotland which means that Labour could be forced into a deal with the SNP which may also put off a lot of English voters that would see that as the beginning of the end of the union and Labour are not in a good place. 

I really don't know what the answer could be, possibly a new very charismatic leader (from where to find that person, I have no idea) with a convincing plan for a better Britain that's able to satify Brexiteers and remainers. Its a long shot. Hence I agree, right now as it stands Labour has no shot in 2024. 

Hopefully by that point I'll have enough saved up to fuck off around the world with my gf and this shit won't bother me anymore. 

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1 hour ago, MiddayGun said:

I'm now convinced that unfortunately Keir isn't the right man for the job. Or I should reiterate, he's the right man for the job, but I don't think he can convince enough voters that he is. 

I'm convinced more Tory voters like Kier more and in greater number than traditional Labor voters.

____________

If you want to know the future look to Aust recent history that preceeded the UK's by a couple of years and UK is currently following up to the first act.

The conservative in opposition started with left leaning leader (Turnbull) who they dumped in favour of a right wing nutter (Abbott) who won them the election. So right wing nutter (Abbott) who once wanted to be Catholic priest. Championed against same sex marriage in his own referendum, having a sister, that married her female partner when it got up.

But realising he was a nutter they then dumped him going back to Turnbull. Abbott the nutter is now a UK Board of Trade member.

So that means BumFace will get the boot inside of a year. So if there is someone with no political conviction, ex PR speaks well and belongs to fringe talking in tongues sort of religion, thats the UK's next PM.

So governing conservatives had a left leaning PM (Turnbull) that Labour voters liked more so dumped him for a populist air head Morrison (ex marketing) now the incumbent who only just beat in party room vote an even bigger RW nutter. That means he has had to become a nutter too, otherwise he will get dumped too. He tones that down by being a religious nutter. The election is next year.

The Labor party in opposition just likes UK, leader nice guy but useless & labour a policy free zone, in fact budget came down tonight and its a Labor style spend, spend, spend so they are screwed.

Actually to complete the picture. The left leaning conservative PM (Turnbull) who got dumped has teamed up with a ex Labor PM also dumped (Rudd), they were opposing leaders at the same time, to now throw rocks at the Govt and take on Murdoch based on my enemy's enemies are my enemies too.

That means May and Corbyn will team up and do the same.

PS. After writing this I reread it as it doesn't seem possible and found I was wrong it was worse and had to change it

 

Edited by jack_sparrow
PS added
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