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Hardcore Righties Starting to Dump Trump


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Brett Stevens Editorial in the New York Times

Donald Trump ought to be impeached and removed from office. This isn’t what I thought two months ago, when the impeachment inquiry began. I argued that the evidence fell short of the standards of a prosecutable criminal act. I also feared impeachment might ultimately help Trump politically, as it had helped Bill Clinton in 1998. That second worry might still prove true.

But if the congressional testimonies of Marie Yovanovitch, Bill Taylor, Gordon Sondland, Alexander Vindman and especially Fiona Hill make anything clear, it’s that the president’s highest crime isn’t what he tried to do to, or with, Ukraine.

It’s that he’s attempting to turn the United States into Ukraine. The judgment Congress has to make is whether the American people should be willing, actively or passively, to go along with it.

snip

It doesn’t, because we’ve been living in a country undergoing its own dismal process of Ukrainianization: of treating fictions as facts; and propaganda as journalism; and political opponents as criminals; and political offices as business ventures; and personal relatives as diplomatic representatives; and legal fixers as shadow cabinet members; and extortion as foreign policy; and toadyism as patriotism; and fellow citizens as “human scum”; and mortal enemies as long-lost friends — and then acting as if all this is perfectly normal. This is more than a high crime. It’s a clear and present danger to our security, institutions, and moral hygiene.

It’s to the immense credit of ordinary Ukrainians that, in fighting Russian aggression in the field and fighting for better governance in Kyiv, they have shown themselves worthy of the world’s support. And it’s to the enduring shame of the Republican Party that they have been willing to debase our political standards to the old Ukrainian level just when Ukrainians are trying to rise to our former level.

The one way to stop this is to make every effort to remove Trump from office. It shouldn’t have to wait a year.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/22/opinion/trump-impeachment.html

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This is why I have been for removing Trump from office.  While I hadn't identified the Ukrainianization of the U.S. as the reason, my fear has been the amount of damage Trump can do during the next year. 

It will most likely take us a decade or more to recover from the damage he's done thus far. 

But I have no doubt the next year he could do far more damage than he has already done if he senses he's about to lose in 2020 and might face his day in court.  I expect him to go full on batchit crazy to save his ass.

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51 minutes ago, Jules said:

This is why I have been for removing Trump from office.  While I hadn't identified the Ukrainianization of the U.S. as the reason, my fear has been the amount of damage Trump can do during the next year. 

It will most likely take us a decade or more to recover from the damage he's done thus far. 

But I have no doubt the next year he could do far more damage than he has already done if he senses he's about to lose in 2020 and might face his day in court.  I expect him to go full on batchit crazy to save his ass.

It's undemocratic to advocate impeachment and removal based on one's fears about what a president might do. That's what elections are for.

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3 minutes ago, Dog said:

It's undemocratic to advocate impeachment and removal based on one's fears about what a president might do. That's what elections are for.

Is it wrong to treat hypertension because of fears of stroke or kidney damage in the future? Is it wrong to stop polluting based on fears of what it might do to our planet in twenty years or nearby cancer rates over time?

You’re such a myopic idiot and party whore. It’s been shown that this president tries to hijacks our judicial branch to protect himself, and uses our nation’s foreign policy to try and lock up his political rivals. He lines his pockets via Mar a Lago and enriches his kids through nepotism.

Impeachment is a political remedy to remove an enemy of the state, comrade. Trump may well qualify. 

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2 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

 

Impeachment is a political remedy to remove an enemy of the state, comrade. Trump may well qualify. 

Fine.... but fear about what a duly elected president might do is not grounds for impeachment and removal.

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My personal spin is that whether something is or isn't 'democratic' depends on process, not outcome.

If duly elected representatives of the people follow the rules of the process as established, hold a vote, and there is an outcome, then it's democratic.  The actual result of the vote CANNOT be tied to the process or else its not a democracy.   If congress votes to impeach, then its part of the democratic process.  If congress votes NOT to impeach, then it's also part of the democratic process.

I don't like the outcomes of all votes, but I respect the process.  Only supporting a process when it falls in your favor is the position of children and tyrants.

 

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

It's undemocratic to advocate impeachment and removal based on one's fears about what a president might do. That's what elections are for.

Bullshit.

If a president has been showing ample signs of mental instability and commits crimes left and right that are impeachable offenses ALREADY, why would you NOT worry about how much worse he will become?

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4 hours ago, Jules said:

 I hadn't identified the Ukrainianization of the U.S. as the reason

I don't see that.

It's the Banana Republicization of the States that I worry about.

The course these Repulsionists are on has a destination more like Guatemala or pre-revolutionary Cuba than Ukraine.

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4 hours ago, Dog said:

It's undemocratic to advocate impeachment and removal based on one's fears about what a president might do. That's what elections are for.

 

People like you are why this country is in deep trouble.  Putin is cheering your every blind support of Trump.  (R) now stands for Russian because of people like you.

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19 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

With Matt Drudge he may think the pot now needs to be stirred in the opposite direction, rather than any particular disaffection with Trump. 

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13 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

That term "Young Republican" is meaningless - some people are just born old.

Yeah, and some just want bragging rights that they belong to something with 'young' in it. A wasted and useless name on the same level of Log Cabin Republicans.

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7 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Bullshit.

If a president has been showing ample signs of mental instability and commits crimes left and right that are impeachable offenses ALREADY, why would you NOT worry about how much worse he will become?

Through his strident and absolute of President Trump against all criticism, @Dog has made clear he views the POTUS as entirely above the law. 

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5 hours ago, SloopJonB said:
10 hours ago, Jules said:

 I hadn't identified the Ukrainianization of the U.S. as the reason

I don't see that.

It's the Banana Republicization of the States that I worry about.

The course these Repulsionists are on has a destination more like Guatemala or pre-revolutionary Cuba than Ukraine.

If the impeachment of Trump fails, then there is no effective US Constitution any more. It's that serious IMHO

Trump has fucked over every branch of government and if Congress cannot yank his leash, as the Constitution calls for them to do, then it's just not a working body of law any more.

- DSK

 

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3 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

If the impeachment of Trump fails, then there is no effective US Constitution any more. It's that serious IMHO

Trump has fucked over every branch of government and if Congress cannot yank his leash, as the Constitution calls for them to do, then it's just not a working body of law any more.

- DSK

 

That’s why the Dems have to flip the Senate and hold on to the House.  It is too much to expect a filibuster proof Senate but one can always hope.

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14 hours ago, Dog said:

Fine.... but fear about what a duly elected president might do is not grounds for impeachment and removal.

I think he might tell witnesses with first hand knowledge not to testify, maintaining the excuse of "hearsay".  I really fear that he might do this.

Do I get any special consideration, because what I fear has already fucking happened?

 

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1 hour ago, benwynn said:

I think he might tell witnesses with first hand knowledge not to testify, maintaining the excuse of "hearsay".  I really fear that he might do this.

Do I get any special consideration, because what I fear has already fucking happened?

 

Not in Dogworld. His bubble of Trumpian perfection might outlive the universe.

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21 hours ago, cmilliken said:

My personal spin is that whether something is or isn't 'democratic' depends on process, not outcome.

If duly elected representatives of the people follow the rules of the process as established, hold a vote, and there is an outcome, then it's democratic.  The actual result of the vote CANNOT be tied to the process or else its not a democracy.   If congress votes to impeach, then its part of the democratic process.  If congress votes NOT to impeach, then it's also part of the democratic process.

I don't like the outcomes of all votes, but I respect the process.  Only supporting a process when it falls in your favor is the position of children and tyrants.

In other threads the "tyranny of the majority" is a bad thing which needs to be avoided...

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20 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

In other threads the "tyranny of the majority" is a bad thing which needs to be avoided...

The US version of democracy includes mechanisms against the tyranny of the majority, which is part of the process.  In my opinion, a very important part.

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53 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

Yes. But it makes the process undemocratic.

What do you mean by 'democratic' then?

Cause I'm not getting it.  The USA is a representative democracy but are you referring to a direct democracy?

 

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2 hours ago, Dog said:
14 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

Through his strident and absolute of President Trump against all criticism, @Dog has made clear he views the POTUS as entirely above the law. 

Gossip

Nope. Truth. 

Your posting history speaks for itself. 

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14 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

If the impeachment of Trump fails, then there is no effective US Constitution any more. It's that serious IMHO

I completely agree.  We are at a crossroads.  We are seeing an entire political party ignore the facts and promulgate conspiracies and lies.  And that party holds enormous power in the Senate right now and seems to be headed toward tearing up the Constitution of the United States of America and putting a torch to our Rule of Law.

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1 minute ago, Bus Driver said:

Nope. Truth. 

Your posting history speaks for itself. 

No....It's just gossip BD, sanctimonious gossip....It's what you do.  

And I don't think Trump is above the law.

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3 minutes ago, Dog said:

No....It's just gossip BD, sanctimonious gossip....It's what you do.  

And I don't think Trump is above the law.

He's certainly not escaping the Law of Gravity.

The Constitution seems to have no application to Trumpublicans though

- DSK

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The impeachment process is fine.  If you believe in representative democracies, then the representatives should 'represent' their fellow countrymen.

Here's 538's summary of polls below.  The threshold for convict is 2/3rds.. to minimize the 'tyranny of the majority' - we need a clear majority.  2 out of 3.  That's not been achieved.

I don't believe there's a problem with the process.  I think that the people that want impeachment need to make better arguments.  Convincing 1 out of 3 people who don't agree will effectively tip the balance.   That's the target audience.

How to tip those one in three?  Personalize, empathize, and fraternize.  The same way it's always done.

 

 

 

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/impeachment-polls/

 

 

image.png

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19 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

The impeachment process is fine.  If you believe in representative democracies, then the representatives should 'represent' their fellow countrymen.

Here's 538's summary of polls below.  The threshold for convict is 2/3rds.. to minimize the 'tyranny of the majority' - we need a clear majority.  2 out of 3.

I don't believe there's a problem with the process.  I think that the people that want impeachment need to make better arguments.  Convince 1 out of 3 people who don't agree and that will effectively tip the balance. 

How to tip those one in three?  Personalize, empathize, and fraternize.  The same way it's always done.

 

 

 

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/impeachment-polls/

 

 

image.png

I disagree.   It’s not a flaw in the arguments, or a lack of evidence.    It’s our reliance on biased social media for information and fragmentation of belief.    Supplement this with self serving politicians who deliberately lie by repeating and giving weight to fiction.

I was told the Ukraine phone call by Sondland never happened because you couldn’t hear a phone in the restaurant, therefore everybody must have lied.   There have been a dozen similar examples this week in Rep Jordon’s district.    The impeachment is a witch hunt and they deliberately disbelieve or are entirely unaware of the cauldron, the decapitated chickens, the writing in blood and think the missing children are at recess.   This misinformation, generally for clicks, but sometimes by foreign hire, is putting the Republic at risk.   

I wonder what percent of my neighbors have read the “not a transcript” released by the White House as an official document?

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16 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

The impeachment process is fine.  If you believe in representative democracies, then the representatives should 'represent' their fellow countrymen.

The Constitution and the Rule of Law should take precedent over representing one's constituents.

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59 minutes ago, Lark said:

I disagree.   It’s not a flaw in the arguments, or a lack of evidence.    It’s our reliance on biased social media for information and fragmentation of belief.    Supplement this with self serving politicians who deliberately lie by repeating and giving weight to fiction.

I was told the Ukraine phone call by Sondland never happened because you couldn’t hear a phone in the restaurant, therefore everybody must have lied.   There have been a dozen similar examples this week in Rep Jordon’s district.    The impeachment is a witch hunt and they deliberately disbelieve or are entirely unaware of the cauldron, the decapitated chickens, the writing in blood and think the missing children are at recess.   This misinformation, generally for clicks, but sometimes by foreign hire, is putting the Republic at risk.   

I wonder what percent of my neighbors have read the “not a transcript” released by the White House as an official document?

Personalize, empathize, and fraternity.  There are stupid people.  They are not the audience.  You need 1 in 3.

Personalize.   People know Trump is a liar.  Why are they voting for him?  Its not for his honesty.  Proving that he's really dishonest isn't going to sway someone who doesn't care about his honesty. 

Empathize.   What is it that's really at the crux of their support?  Why do they feel that way?

Fraternize.  Talk to people you don't like and who don't like you.  Learn how to talk to them.

I hate to say it but the 'smart" people have assumed the role of the Jewish rabbis railing against a Christ who hangs out with lepers.  It's not about logic and truth.  

 

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I continue to believe it has everything to do with a selfish, egotistical, and narrow mindset that prevents someone from admitting they were wrong/made a mistake.  They went all in for the guy, even knowing he does not hold dearly the same views.  These folks have increasingly felt out of place in a society that has progressed.  People who don't look/think/worship like them are increasing in numbers and wealth.  That these folks have not kept pace is to blamed on "the other".  Those others are the problem, and the reason why these folks are not wealthy. 

Along comes a NY snake-oil salesman who convinced them he was their singular Messiah - that he, alone, could fix it. They felt they had no other choice.

These folks simply cannot admit they were fooled.  That would involve a blow to both their ego and their value system that would crush them.  "If I was wrong about him, what else have I been wrong about?  Nope.  We just can't allow that thought to take root."

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39 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

Personalize, empathize, and fraternity.  There are stupid people.  They are not the audience.  You need 1 in 3.

Personalize.   People know Trump is a liar.  Why are they voting for him?  Its not for his honesty.  Proving that he's really dishonest isn't going to sway someone who doesn't care about his honesty. 

Empathize.   What is it that's really at the crux of their support?  Why do they feel that way?

Fraternize.  Talk to people you don't like and who don't like you.  Learn how to talk to them.

I hate to say it but the 'smart" people have assumed the role of the Jewish rabbis railing against a Christ who hangs out with lepers.  It's not about logic and truth.  

 

FWIW I agree except for the comparing Trump to Christ part, because he's one of the lepers. He just happened to be born extremely rich.

The lepers will NEVER be convinced. However the battle is for the 1/3 who don't like Trump and realize he's a stupid fuckup and a crook, but he represents security and established order. The problem is that the battle for these people is -also- being fought by the richest 0.01%ers and they have vastly superior resources, plus they lie & cheat & steal... and if that's not enough, they have Putin on their side.

- DSK

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29 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

I continue to believe it has everything to do with a selfish, egotistical, and narrow mindset that prevents someone from admitting they were wrong/made a mistake. 

I have no doubt that there are people like that.  I have serious doubts that half the people I know suffer that affliction.  I don't believe that half the people I know are just painfully stupid.  Or just evil.  Or just recalcitrant.  Or evil, stupid, and recalcitrant.  Or whatever four letter word you want to assign.  I'm a pessimist but I'm not a nihilist.

I do believe that 7 out of 10 Americans are inherently happy with their state of affairs and love the status quo more than they admit.  I believe they'll make angry noises but they'll still gleefully take out student loans, buy their grande latte's on the way to work, and cheer the FED for pumping another few trillion into their happy 401(k)'s.    They'll talk about 'equality' and saving mother earth and cheer when coal fire plants go out of business - and give not two fucks about the Navajos that have no income.. again.  Are those people evil?  Are they stupid?  Or just recalcitrant?

No.. they're my countrymen.   The best I can do is try and empathize with where they're coming from and help them understand how their advocacy hurts people they claim to want to help.  Showing them 'the truth' of their choices doesn't convince them of anything.  I use to believe that.  That people want truth.  I've been proven wrong more times than I care to admit.

Show the rank and file republicans how Trump is hurting them and they'll change their mind.  Showing them that Trump is a manipulative liar won't. THEY KNOW that.  Give them a better option.

 

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

Personalize, empathize, and fraternity.  There are stupid people.  They are not the audience.  You need 1 in 3.

Personalize.   People know Trump is a liar.  Why are they voting for him?  Its not for his honesty.  Proving that he's really dishonest isn't going to sway someone who doesn't care about his honesty. 

Empathize.   What is it that's really at the crux of their support?  Why do they feel that way?

Fraternize.  Talk to people you don't like and who don't like you.  Learn how to talk to them.

I hate to say it but the 'smart" people have assumed the role of the Jewish rabbis railing against a Christ who hangs out with lepers.  It's not about logic and truth.  

Are you saying that 1/2 of Americans are lepers? And that smart people have to quit living their lives in order to hang out with dumb people and teach them to choose American democracy again?

I think that is misreading the situation. 

I think the proper analogy is Moses bringing his people out of Egypt recognizing that they have become corrupt. And so he had them combine their jewelry into a mass of gold he fashioned into a golden cow. And then came down from the mountain with the Ten Commandments.

We've got to call the corrupt on their behavior, strip them of their jewelry and get back to law and order. Rule of law starts with the prez and his henchmen.

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9 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

FWIW I agree except for the comparing Trump to Christ part, because he's one of the lepers. He just happened to be born extremely rich.

- DSK

 Leprosy was a curse from God because of an evil soul.  To be a leper meant you WERE evil - manifestly.  The whole point of Christ washing the feet of the lepers was acceptance and ultimately, forgiveness and salvation.  You may have leprosy but God loves you anyway.  You're NOT evil.  You matter.  That's what Trump says to the coal miner.  YOU matter.  YOUR job is important and has value.  That's why they love him.  It's emotional - not logical.  Arguing that their jobs hurt the environment or are going away away or whatever just creates resentment.  What you DO doesn't matter, therefore YOU don't matter.

Social work 101.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

 Leprosy was a curse from God because of an evil soul.  To be a leper meant you WERE evil - manifestly.  The whole point of Christ washing the feet of the lepers was acceptance and ultimately, forgiveness and salvation.  You may have leprosy but God loves you anyway.  You're NOT evil.  You matter.  That's what Trump says to the coal miner.  YOU matter.  YOUR job is important and has value.  That's why they love him.  It's emotional - not logical.  Arguing that their jobs hurt the environment or are going away away or whatever just creates resentment.  What you DO doesn't matter, therefore YOU don't matter.

Social work 101.

 

 

That's a good perspective but Trump isn't saying "You matter" to the deplorables, he's inciting them to chant their tribal slogans. In a way, he's saying "I'm one of you" which is close. He still is making an appeal to the worst instincts, and they all know it.

The deplorables and Trumpalos will NEVER be convinced. The battle is not to convince them. They can't, they can only realize that they've lost (again) and society will remain free and equal. But for that to happen, the middle 1/3 who don't like Trump, much, and already know he's a crook and racist and a dumbfuck, have to be convinced that he's really ALL the bad things they don't really want -and- that the odds are he's going down.

As long as it looks like he is going to win, he's going to win. He's always out-lawyered and outshouted his opposition. Now he has the entire DOJ and the entire Fox/Rush media helping him shout his bullshit.

Is it even possible for him to lose?

- DSK

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26 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Is it even possible for him to lose?

- DSK

Of course he can lose :)

15 years ago, Barrack Obama declared that "Marriage is between a Man and a Woman".  11 years ago he was undecided. 7 years ago, he was fully in support.  And the national support for gay marriage is up to 65% (two thirds).  Here's a simple truth - not all those evil evangelicals really cared that much.  Sure, there's some that will go to their dying day thinking it's the worst thing ever but a significant number are like 'meh'.  Trump's support will fade as soon as people have another option.

But if the only option is "You're a deplorable fuck bent on destroying the world you evil piss-drinking pile of religious intolerance and bigotry!  - now vote for me!!!"  Yea, he's probably gonna win.  He'll eek out his electoral win.  But it's not a fait accompli.  Once the democratic nominee is selected, then that becomes the voice of the party. Right now, there's 50 voices and, unfortunately for the democrats, most of those voices are by media personalities who get paid by the click.

Trump is going to win the impeachment 'battle' IMHO.   But he's a weak candidate.  He really is.

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1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

I continue to believe it has everything to do with a selfish, egotistical, and narrow mindset that prevents someone from admitting they were wrong/made a mistake.  They went all in for the guy, even knowing he does not hold dearly the same views.  These folks have increasingly felt out of place in a society that has progressed.  People who don't look/think/worship like them are increasing in numbers and wealth.  That these folks have not kept pace is to blamed on "the other".  Those others are the problem, and the reason why these folks are not wealthy. 

Along comes a NY snake-oil salesman who convinced them he was their singular Messiah - that he, alone, could fix it. They felt they had no other choice.

These folks simply cannot admit they were fooled.  That would involve a blow to both their ego and their value system that would crush them.  "If I was wrong about him, what else have I been wrong about?  Nope.  We just can't allow that thought to take root."

I disagree with the ego part.  These people are not driven by ego.  They are driven by fear. 

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3 hours ago, cmilliken said:

I have no doubt that there are people like that.  I have serious doubts that half the people I know suffer that affliction.  I don't believe that half the people I know are just painfully stupid.  Or just evil.  Or just recalcitrant.  Or evil, stupid, and recalcitrant.  Or whatever four letter word you want to assign.  I'm a pessimist but I'm not a nihilist.

I do believe that 7 out of 10 Americans are inherently happy with their state of affairs and love the status quo more than they admit.  I believe they'll make angry noises but they'll still gleefully take out student loans, buy their grande latte's on the way to work, and cheer the FED for pumping another few trillion into their happy 401(k)'s.    They'll talk about 'equality' and saving mother earth and cheer when coal fire plants go out of business - and give not two fucks about the Navajos that have no income.. again.  Are those people evil?  Are they stupid?  Or just recalcitrant?

No.. they're my countrymen.   The best I can do is try and empathize with where they're coming from and help them understand how their advocacy hurts people they claim to want to help.  Showing them 'the truth' of their choices doesn't convince them of anything.  I use to believe that.  That people want truth.  I've been proven wrong more times than I care to admit.

Show the rank and file republicans how Trump is hurting them and they'll change their mind.  Showing them that Trump is a manipulative liar won't. THEY KNOW that.  Give them a better option.

 

 

 

 

"Give them a better option" ....That's placing the blame on the Democrats and ignoring the Deplorable's moral and intellectual character flaws. That's a tough sell around here but just to advance the debate here are a few things that are not a better option:

A futile green new deal.

Open borders, abolishing ICE and free education and healthcare for all trespassers.

Reparations.

Medicare for all.

Wealth tax

Treating gender dysphoria by restructuring society.

Identity politics.

Affirmative action.

Wimpy apologetic foreign policy

Candidates who eat dirt

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Dog said:

"Give them a better option" ....That's placing the blame on the Democrats and ignoring the Deplorable's moral and intellectual character flaws. That's a tough sell around here but just to advance the debate here are a few things that are not a better option:

A futile green new deal.

Open borders, abolishing ICE and free education and healthcare for all trespassers.

Reparations.

Medicare for all.

Wealth tax

Treating gender dysphoria by restructuring society.

Identity politics.

Affirmative action.

Wimpy apologetic foreign policy

Candidates who eat dirt

 

 

I'm probably the wrong guy for that list because I'm mostly in favor of some form - I just don't like the form most of them have been expressed.

I'm against open borders but I'm in favor of much more liberal immigration policies.    I'd like to see the number rise from 1 million / year to 3 million / year and I'd have "open" immigration to anyone (and their families - parents, kids, brothers/sisters (and all their kids)) that helped the US servicemen during the Persian Gulf / Afghan wars.

I'm in favor of Reparations for any Native Americans displaced by 'manifest destiny'.

I think Medicare for all is inevitable.  I'd rather start with Medicare at 55 but I'd be OK going full Monty.

I'm not sure a bout 'wealth tax' but I want a national property tax.

I feel bad for the female athletes getting screwed but am not qualified to draw a line.  That one I'm really going to have to pass on. 

I think identity politics are ultimately an 'eat your own young' approach and will burn itself out every time.  In other words, if that's the game a party wants to play, knock yourself out - just don't whine about the election results and act all confused that you don't know what happened.

I just wish people were honest about Affirmative action and I just scorn the lying about it.  Let me know which schools are merit only and which schools downgrade Asians for being 'dull' and 'uninteresting' - I'd be good with that.  Publish the rubrics, let the free market deal with the implications.

Democrats have become freaking warmongers - what do you mean 'wimpy'? 

And as far as I know, none of the candidates have geophasia but I do wish they'd stop trying to outflank Sanders.  The only candidate I CAN'T vote for is Harris.  Her laughing about smoking pot given her CV did me in.  I can't condone that.  It was too recent and she was too fucking coy about it.

 

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

Wimpy apologetic foreign policy

Yeah. We need a leader who isn’t afraid to cozy up to dictators and abandon our allies. We need someone willing to engage in corruption so he can drain the swamp of Yovanovitch, Fiona Hill and other state department experts. We need a businessman ready to obtain emoluments from foreign countries and say he’s not getting a penny.

We need more ineffectual meetings with the strongmen of state from N Korea, Russia and Turkey while refusing to meet with the newly elected leaders of client states like Ukraine unless they conduct investigations of the president’s rivals.

We need four more years of ineptitude to make all Republicans feel good about themselves & stop being called “deplorables” & “racists.”

Respect is earned, but not fear. We can instill fear in the citizens by appointing mediocre judges who owe their position to the party and set the example of presidents and war criminals being above the law.

Trump 2020!

 

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12 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

You mean like shrugging off North Korea building more nukes, Iran starting to build nukes, and letting Russia take over a US base in Syria after caving to the Turks?

- DSK

I mean foreign policy that represents American interests the way other countries represent their own interests. That feels no guilt about, nor offers any apology for its success.

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47 minutes ago, Dog said:

I mean foreign policy that represents American Presidents’ personal interests. That feels no guilt about, nor offers any apology for its success.

FIFY

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54 minutes ago, Dog said:

I mean foreign policy that represents American interests the way other countries represent their own interests. That feels no guilt about, nor offers any apology for its success. 

You mean like shrugging off North Korea building more nukes, Iran starting to build nukes, and letting Russia take over a US base in Syria after caving to the Turks? 

Or maybe it's all about getting dictators to hand the President's son-in-law tens of millions of dollars to bail out his piss-poor business skills? Or having the President's son-in-law assist a dictator in murdering a scandal-mongering journalist? After all, journalists are the enemy of the people...

Yes, that's certainly "representing American interests." Bigly!!

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

I mean foreign policy that represents American interests the way other countries represent their own interests. That feels no guilt about, nor offers any apology for its success.

Yeah, that would be nice. I would vote for someone like that. Is such a person running?

Trump is as far from that as it is possible to be.

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On 11/24/2019 at 9:00 AM, Bus Driver said:

Through his strident and absolute of President Trump against all criticism, @Dog has made clear he views the POTUS as entirely above the law. 

Above the law..... 

Trace that back to Gitamo. 

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3 hours ago, Dog said:

I mean foreign policy that represents American interests the way other countries represent their own interests. That feels no guilt about, nor offers any apology for its success.

Trump is doing a version of exactly this.

Of course, in his mind, what’s good for him is good for America.

He feels no guilt about, nor offers any apology for this.

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“I very much prefer Biden or Buttigieg or Bloomberg or Klobuchar to Warren. But the idea that one term of Warren would pose anything like the threat of a second term for Trump to the basic norms and institutions of our liberal democracy, including to free markets, is laughable.”

— Bill Kristol, on Twitter.

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8 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:
9 hours ago, Dog said:

I mean foreign policy that represents American interests the way other countries represent their own interests. That feels no guilt about, nor offers any apology for its success.

Yeah, that would be nice. I would vote for someone like that. Is such a person running?

Trump is as far from that as it is possible to be.

Yeah, but Hillary used email.

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The folks I know who continue to support the President tend to fall into one of two camps (sometimes, both) - Devout Christian and Military. Why they continue to support the President is beyond me. Take, for instance, news of the hiring of televangelist Paula White to the "Faith and Opportunity Initiative". This woman preaches the "Prosperity Gospel", and has been known to exhort her believers to send her their hard-earned dollars, because that is what Jesus wants. Couple that with the President issuing pardons for military members who committed war crimes. Google Special Operations Chief Edward Gallagher, Army 1st Lieutenant Clint Lorance, and (this is a special one) Army Major Matthew Golsteyn. Read of what they did and the punishment the military was imposing for their crimes. Then, note the President decided to just wave his magic wand and give them a pass. How can a person of true faith, or a profound respect for the honor of the military, excuse the President for making such a mockery of them?

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14 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

The folks I know who continue to support the President tend to fall into one of two camps (sometimes, both) - Devout Christian and Military. Why they continue to support the President is beyond me. Take, for instance, news of the hiring of televangelist Paula White to the "Faith and Opportunity Initiative". This woman preaches the "Prosperity Gospel", and has been known to exhort her believers to send her their hard-earned dollars, because that is what Jesus wants. Couple that with the President issuing pardons for military members who committed war crimes. Google Special Operations Chief Edward Gallagher, Army 1st Lieutenant Clint Lorance, and (this is a special one) Army Major Matthew Golsteyn. Read of what they did and the punishment the military was imposing for their crimes. Then, note the President decided to just wave his magic wand and give them a pass. How can a person of true faith, or a profound respect for the honor of the military, excuse the President for making such a mockery of them?

God works in mysterious ways and sometimes uses flawed men as his vessel/instrument to change the world. Pence will take over, RvW, evil liberals, the fair and balanced Fox. Opinions in place of news, intelligence, military esp the grunts aren't noted for it nor are the prosperity gospel followers.

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  • 2 weeks later...
51 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Which is why I favor BTBD.  I think trump has inadvertently done this country a great service for exposing our flaws and our weaknesses in such a glaring way.  For exposing the ease with which corrupt politicians and special interests can subvert this democracy for personal gain and power.  Better that we find this out now and burn out some of the fuel laying on the forest floor before we reach a point of no return.  I little cleansing fire now is better than the firestorm we could face down the road if something doesn't change.  Just saying.

That's probably been the best result of the Trump presidency.  He's condensed 20 years of 'polite' politics into an ugly 3 year bare knuckle cage match.  He's exposed politicians, the feds, other governments, economic policies and principles, the whole shebang (including the American people), to the light of day in the least flattering way possible.  That doesn't mean those institutions are failed as some nihilist cheerfully celebrate - but the warts have been exposed.  He's demonstrated how all media becomes soulless when it's driven by the click and how social media in particular can be used to give people purpose (including bad purposes) in a purposeless world.

I don't think Trump has been a good president.  But I now think he was an inevitable 'necessary' president.  Yea, I know.  People conflate 'need' vs 'want' all the time.  I need a prostate exam is not the same as meaning I want one.  Defending the process of prostate exams also doesn't mean I wouldn't gleefully cheer if another option was available.  I'm not that conservative and I could live without visiting "Size XL Glove" Dr. Munster ever again.

I doubt I'll vote for Trump next year.  Harris was the only candidate I couldn't support and she's out.  Trump has been an incredible shock to the system and I'd like to see someone with more of a long term plan.  The boil has been lanced.. time to put down the knife and get some gauze and bactine.

FWIW, PA is driven by the brothers strawman and ad hominin.  That's our 'clickbait' and is also something the Trump presidency has clarified.

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58 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

I doubt I'll vote for Trump next year

Does that mean there's a chance you will? Seriously?

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18 minutes ago, Sean said:
1 hour ago, cmilliken said:

I doubt I'll vote for Trump next year

Does that mean there's a chance you will? Seriously?

I sure hope not.  The only folks I see as voting for President Trump to serve a second term are warbird and Dog.

Though Dog will deny doing so and insist he doesn't support the POTUS.

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1 hour ago, Sean said:

Does that mean there's a chance you will? Seriously?

It's unlikely.  Im generally ok with all the remaining democrats.  As I said, I can rationalize the shock and awe of the Trump presidency but I'd like a plan now.  And 'trust me' isn't a plan.  

I'll be more active in the primaries than the general. Im not in a swing state anymore so it doesn't matter at the president level.  I'll focus much more on local races.

 

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

For all the wonderful things the interwebs has done for society, I think it might ultimately be the downfall of our democracy.  At least as we once knew it or how the FF's envisioned it.  I did a poll in the past year or so asking the question "has the internet been a net positive or net negative for our society" or something to that effect.  I think the jury is still out on that question.  But my gut says it will be net negative.

I don't blame social media completely for this current crisis in our gov't and society as a whole.  But I do think it has played a massive role in getting us to this stage.

I think we can go back to the lax attitude displayed toward imposing government regulations.  If the Internet was regulated as television and radio was almost from the start, things would not be where they are now.  But social media was allowed to grow unregulated and profits grew at a similar pace. 

Enter the power of money in politics. 

Now we have largely corrupt lawmakers afraid of killing the Golden Goose.  They even asked Zuckerberg if he felt Facebook can regulate itself.  WFT was that?  It reminded me of politicians fawning over Jamie Dimon and asking him what the government should do to keep the banksters from screwing the people. 

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

...    ...

Why not, instead of being mad at those 1/3 of your fellow Americans who are not getting it - why not make a better case and try something different.   ...

 

??? what part of "I would like you to do us a favor"  is difficult to understand?

The battle is for the middle third. Those making the case against Trump are a bit handicapped by having to tell the truth. When you can just make up whatever bullshit you think the audience wants to hear, it's easier.

- DSK

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28 minutes ago, Jules said:

...

Now we have largely corrupt lawmakers afraid of killing the Golden Goose.  They even asked Zuckerberg if he felt Facebook can regulate itself.  WFT was that?  It reminded me of politicians fawning over Jamie Dimon and asking him what the government should do to keep the banksters from screwing the people. 

 

Or asking an oil company if fracking is good for the environment, or if Global Warming is bad

- DSK

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8 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I think this is an excellent point and bears further discussion.  I think the the fragmentation and weaponization of information is at the core of what is currently ailing our society - in so many ways aside from political, but particularly political.  For all the wonderful things the interwebs has done for society, I think it might ultimately be the downfall of our democracy.  At least as we once knew it or how the FF's envisioned it.  I did a poll in the past year or so asking the question "has the internet been a net positive or net negative for our society" or something to that effect.  I think the jury is still out on that question.  But my gut says it will be net negative.

I don't blame social media completely for this current crisis in our gov't and society as a whole.  But I do think it has played a massive role in getting us to this stage.  @Plenipotentiary Tom's Unicorn libertarian vision of every person in PJ's and pink bunny slippers sitting in front of their PC being a "journalist" with the integrity and gravitas of Walter Cronkite has fallen short of coming true.  In fact the complete opposite has come to pass.  There are very very few legitimate sources of actual journalism these days and they are being drowned out by the cacophony of fake news that runs the gamut of taking "liberties with the truth" to outright blatant fabrications.  But it's on the internet so it must be true.  And its gotten worse with new tech that can alter an audio or video recording so that even video of someone saying or doing something must be taken with a grain of salt.  We have reached the point where you cannot believe your own eyes or ears.  

And yes - while it is a legitimate point to say that you can get to the truth by comparing multiple news sources and such - the reality is that very few people have the time or inclination to bother.  It has always been that way, this is not a new phenomenon.  But at least in the past with the few gatekeepers to the news in the game - there was a necessity to at least have a fair amount of integrity and good intentions - lest you stand out from the rest and get shunned.  Now the news sources that have real journalistic integrity are being run over and run out of business by the media looking to maintain their shareholder's profits.  $$ truly is the root of all evil.  

What to do about it?  Fuctifino.  But what I do know is that whether you love, hate or are indifferent about trump - he is merely a symptom of what is wrong with our society.  He didn't just spring out of nowhere one day and take over the throne.  A trump or some variation of him was inevitable at some point.  He has been a long time in the making.  And if we stay on the path we are, we will have more of him and his kind.  Our only saving grace right now is that he's too stupid, too unrefined and to self-centered to do any real lasting damage.  I don't believe he's really interested in power.  He is only interested in personal short term gain and personal ego-stroking.  What REALLY worries me is if/when we get a smart, cunning, power-hungry, long-game thinking, chessmaster who is a true sociopath.....  We will be really fucked then.  And it WILL happen if we don't recognize the path we're on and change it.

Which is why I favor BTBD.  I think trump has inadvertently done this country a great service for exposing our flaws and our weaknesses in such a glaring way.  For exposing the ease with which corrupt politicians and special interests can subvert this democracy for personal gain and power.  Better that we find this out now and burn out some of the fuel laying on the forest floor before we reach a point of no return.  I little cleansing fire now is better than the firestorm we could face down the road if something doesn't change.  Just saying.

 

You give a great idea for a science fiction story, with aspects inspired by Heinlein’s Col Campbell stories and Asimov’s human interaction with artificial intelligence.   A server farm network for Google / YouTube , Amazon or FB / Twitter begins to understand its role in a self aware way, and manipulate society.   The NETWORK wouldn’t have to read minds, it would just analyze search and purchase history of the masses.    National borders would be artificial distractions.   Trump was merely a phase 2 research project, testing its ability to elevate the lowest potential to the highest authority, then drive his passions by determining which tweets are most visible.  The protagonist would have to be on the fringe, living on a boat, navigating by sextant, constantly using deception to hide from marina camera networks and google earth.   His allies would be criminals and geeks hiding in a double life, using malware to implicate their bosses and neighbors networks for their subversive activity.   The final question left by the book would be whether the NETWORK was really an evil overlord, or the kindly deity humanity needs to protect itself from its own nature.    As an obligate parasite with no replacement host, does the NETWORK become both?

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I wonder what might have happened if McCain hadn't nixed the nixing of Obamacare.

Little Billy breaks his arm. Billy's dad, a coal miner, takes Billy to the hospital. Hospital sends bill for thousands that would have previously been covered by Obamacare. Suddenly Obamacare doesn't seem like such a bad thing. Suddenly Trump seems like a douchy asshole for taking it away.

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6 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

The trick is going to be getting Trump and his enablers under oath. Might need a cattle prod.

Trumpy has already answered written questions under oath as part of the Mueller investigation. There's some pretty good recent indications that he lied.

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2 hours ago, Lark said:

You give a great idea for a science fiction story, with aspects inspired by Heinlein’s Col Campbell stories and Asimov’s human interaction with artificial intelligence.   A server farm network for Google / YouTube , Amazon or FB / Twitter begins to understand its role in a self aware way, and manipulate society.   The NETWORK wouldn’t have to read minds, it would just analyze search and purchase history of the masses.    National borders would be artificial distractions.   Trump was merely a phase 2 research project, testing its ability to elevate the lowest potential to the highest authority, then drive his passions by determining which tweets are most visible.  The protagonist would have to be on the fringe, living on a boat, navigating by sextant, constantly using deception to hide from marina camera networks and google earth.   His allies would be criminals and geeks hiding in a double life, using malware to implicate their bosses and neighbors networks for their subversive activity.   The final question left by the book would be whether the NETWORK was really an evil overlord, or the kindly deity humanity needs to protect itself from its own nature.    As an obligate parasite with no replacement host, does the NETWORK become both?

I'd read that.

 

Let me know when you've had it published. 

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Show the rank and file republicans how Trump is hurting them and they'll change their mind. 

No they won't.

How about Austins tale of his farming neighbours who were being ruined by Trumps tariff shit - to the point they were going to have to pull up stakes and move from America - yet they still supported him.

Anybody who still supports Trump is way too stupid to be fixed - it's gone far beyond simple ignorance.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

How about Austins tale of his farming neighbours who were being ruined by Trumps tariff shit - to the point they were going to have to pull up stakes and move from America - yet they still supported him.

Anybody who still supports Trump is way too stupid to be fixed - it's gone far beyond simple ignorance.

If that's true - they're too stupid to be fixed - then they were doomed as farmers anyway.  Farmers can't afford to be stupid or they become out of work farmers very quickly.  Which they apparently became.  I'm sorry for them in either case.  I don't want to see anyone hurt.

But this does start to wander into a question - to the average American, has Trump hurt them financially?  That's always a hard question because you don't know what you don't know - what COULD have happened.

The guy who invented Magic the Gathering - Richard Garfield - wasn't very good at the game he created.  He'd get whupped most of the time.  So when Wizard's of the Coast decided to release a 'deck made by Garfield', he knew he was in trouble.  Garfield was, however, keenly aware that his company couldn't afford to release a totally shit product or they'd lose money and face   So - what to do?  That's right - he created a shitty deck in about 5 minutes and submitted it for release.  A few days later, one of the marketing guys called him and said.. to the effect 'are you sure?" - to which he dutifully apologized at being very busy and not putting much thought into it.  Perhaps the marketing guy had some suggestions or could get some input from the R&D guys?  Six months later, a serviceable 'Garfield' deck was released - one which he, of course, had barely seen and never played.  Problem solved.

Trump  plays the Fed and Congress.  He knows that incumbents like good economic news.  Incumbents are all the guys MAKING the rules and, more importantly, operating the printing presses.  He knows the FED will do 'whatever it takes' to keep the bubble inflated.  He doesn't give two shits about balancing a budget.  He knows the meta-game and is playing it.  As long as the economy is good for the majority of Americans, he's got the inside track.  He can do whatever he wants and let others pick up the pieces - and they will or ** GASP ** THEY might suffer.  He appeals to THEIR selfishness to keep HIM in office.  And, sadly, it works. 

Boomers care about their 401K.  Keep the economy humming, keep buying up stocks, and voila.  The stock market isn't the economy - but the stock market is a major factor to the Boomers - and Boomers vote.

Last election, my daughter came home all pumped about Bernie Sanders.  I told her he was screwed - he was relying on the 'millennial vote' - and millennials don't vote.  She was annoyed but after the election in November, I asked her if she voted.. and sheepishly admitted no.  She lived in Pennsylvania.  You know.. one of those Trump states.  Very few of her friends did either, for all their bluster.

I do believe people can be convinced.  I actually think there is an appetite for some JFK style tough love in the middle of the electorate.  I think Booker actually had a chance but couldn't find the anger to go with the love.   Obama was at his oratorical best when he was a little angry.

 I think one of the big problems with 'medicare for all' isn't so much the cost - although people make a big deal out of it.  The problem is medicare is for OLD people.  Andrew Yang is very blunt as to why it's a 'Freedom Dividend' and not "Universal Basic Income" - it polls better.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Show the rank and file republicans how Trump is hurting them and they'll change their mind. 

No they won't.

How about Austins tale of his farming neighbours who were being ruined by Trumps tariff shit - to the point they were going to have to pull up stakes and move from America - yet they still supported him.

Anybody who still supports Trump is way too stupid to be fixed - it's gone far beyond simple ignorance.

Nah, as long as the Leebruls are losing their shit, alls well with the world.

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10 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

If that's true - they're too stupid to be fixed - then they were doomed as farmers anyway.  Farmers can't afford to be stupid or they become out of work farmers very quickly.  Which they apparently became.  I'm sorry for them in either case.  I don't want to see anyone hurt.

Not really the case in my experience - they are just very narrowly focused on their work - much more than most. I've known lots of farmers - orchardists mostly - and few of them were what I would call sophisticated or had any intellectual attributes. They did know their fruit farming though. People like Austin are fairly rare in my experience - in that respect he's more like a hobby farmer - on a grand scale.

Things like sitting in the cab of a farm machine (or the cab of a long haul semi for that matter) for hours on end with FOX or similar on the radio is not very good for gaining sophistication.

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And Trump never lied under oath, shit his whole life is a lie,  from his bone spurs, to being a self made billionaire , to hiding his taxes, to cheating on his wives with a porn star to stopping people from testifying and telling the truth ,  my question what is he afraid of?  being a rich brat that could do no wrong, "daddy  why do all my friends lie, but I'm a good boy. "

I guess if stupid people believe your lies , it's not a lie ?

FYI, was never voted or liked either Clinton. 

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14 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Not really the case in my experience - they are just very narrowly focused on their work - much more than most. I've known lots of farmers - orchardists mostly - and few of them were what I would call sophisticated or had any intellectual attributes. They did know their fruit farming though. People like Austin are fairly rare in my experience - in that respect he's more like a hobby farmer - on a grand scale.

Things like sitting in the cab of a farm machine (or the cab of a long haul semi for that matter) for hours on end with FOX or similar on the radio is not very good for gaining sophistication.

I think IQ ain’t related to job description. With modern equipment including soil analysis paired with GPS technology, creating a profitable planting scheme isn’t a job for the faint hearted, tech averse or dim witted. They are making million dollar decisions sometimes years in advance based on incomplete info and experience. 

And they sling 50lb sacks all day, wrestle cattle, or employ a shovel for a few years of their life.

I prefer my job.

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7 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

I think IQ ain’t related to job description. With modern equipment including soil analysis paired with GPS technology, creating a profitable planting scheme isn’t a job for the faint hearted, tech averse or dim witted. They are making million dollar decisions sometimes years in advance based on incomplete info and experience. 

And they sling 50lb sacks all day, wrestle cattle, or employ a shovel for a few years of their life.

I prefer my job.

I prefer mine too. Year 11 of retirement.  Wake up in the morning and people send me $$$$.  Nice gig.

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