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I have two Winchester Model 94's. These are part of my families history.

The top one was my dads high school graduation present from 1948. It is a .32 Special. When i was young, he always promised it to me and finally a few years ago he gave it to me when we had to move him out of his house. Dad always kept his firearms clean and at 72 years old, it does look nice and operates smoothly.

The lower one in the picture was my grandfathers(dad's dad). One of my uncle's had it and gave it to me yesterday. Checking the serial number, it is a 1908. It is a .30-.30. My dad shot his first deer with it and him and another uncle were concerned about the noise the saddle ring made, so they cut it off! Grandad used it illegally and legally to feed his family during the great depression. It was shot so much, the barrel had to be replaced. It is a bit rough. But it amazes me that it is 112 years old! And really, for that age, is not in that bad of condition.

I feel priveledged to be the custodian of these historical firearms.

20200629_175826.jpg

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I have two Winchester Model 94's. These are part of my families history. The top one was my dads high school graduation present from 1948. It is a .32 Special. When i was young, he always promise

In wouldn't necessarily call myself a "placid" driver.  But I usually don't go out of my way to instigate confrontations either.  However, this one day on the way home from work on a fairly open fast

and some orthere stuffe to.                                    

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5 hours ago, Great White said:

I have two Winchester Model 94's. These are part of my families history.

The top one was my dads high school graduation present from 1948. It is a .32 Special. When i was young, he always promised it to me and finally a few years ago he gave it to me when we had to move him out of his house. Dad always kept his firearms clean and at 72 years old, it does look nice and operates smoothly.

The lower one in the picture was my grandfathers(dad's dad). One of my uncle's had it and gave it to me yesterday. Checking the serial number, it is a 1908. It is a .30-.30. My dad shot his first deer with it and him and another uncle were concerned about the noise the saddle ring made, so they cut it off! Grandad used it illegally and legally to feed his family during the great depression. It was shot so much, the barrel had to be replaced. It is a bit rough. But it amazes me that it is 112 years old! And really, for that age, is not in that bad of condition.

I feel priveledged to be the custodian of these historical firearms.

20200629_175826.jpg

Thinking about a lovely pre-war '94 I found in a Titsville Pawn Shop. Finish is all Floriduhed, but the action is like buttah.  Of course, there's that Russian Capture Mauser... but that looks like a nightmare in waiting.

 

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Those Winchester’s look great. Nice to have a family connection firearm. I have an 1892 made in 1892 and an 1894 made in 1901. I’ll get a photo posted here in a few days. Lever actions have always been my favorites since I was a kid. 

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1 hour ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Thinking about a lovely pre-war '94 I found in a Titsville Pawn Shop. Finish is all Floriduhed, but the action is like buttah.  Of course, there's that Russian Capture Mauser... but that looks like a nightmare in waiting.

 

Some call it rust, others call it patina!

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19 hours ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Thinking about a lovely pre-war '94 I found in a Titsville Pawn Shop.

I would LOVE to live in a town called "Titsville"!  I assume there are a lot of strip clubs there......

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50 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I would LOVE to live in a town called "Titsville"!  I assume there are a lot of strip clubs there......

Sadly it is in Florida which means nursing homes and assisted care. They still have tits you just have to look lower. No, lower still.

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3 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I would LOVE to live in a town called "Titsville"!  I assume there are a lot of strip clubs there......

Actually, it's a relatively nice, although showing its 60's vintage, town north of the Cape, known only to the Chamber of Commerce as Titusville. The more urbane call it T-ville.  Strip clubs are now sadly lacking.  I did a one month job at the Cape in the early 90's, and in the go-go Shuttle era, strip clubs were everywhere. 

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7 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I would LOVE to live in a town called "Titsville"!  I assume there are a lot of strip clubs there......

 

3 hours ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Actually, it's a relatively nice, although showing its 60's vintage, town north of the Cape, known only to the Chamber of Commerce as Titusville. The more urbane call it T-ville.  Strip clubs are now sadly lacking.  I did a one month job at the Cape in the early 90's, and in the go-go Shuttle era, strip clubs were everywhere. 

First man goes to the ticket counter and is flustered by the attendant's huge breasts. He stammers out "Uh..I'd like two pickets to Tittsburgh...I mean..Pittsburgh". 

Embarrassed, he pays and goes back to his friend and tells him "Man, I just had the worst Freudian slip...I asked for 'pickets to Tittsburgh'". 

His friends responds "That's nothing. Last night at dinner, I meant to ask my wife to pass the salt and instead I said 'You ruined my life you fucking bitch!'".

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1 hour ago, silent bob said:

 

First man goes to the ticket counter and is flustered by the attendant's huge breasts. He stammers out "Uh..I'd like two pickets to Tittsburgh...I mean..Pittsburgh". 

Embarrassed, he pays and goes back to his friend and tells him "Man, I just had the worst Freudian slip...I asked for 'pickets to Tittsburgh'". 

His friends responds "That's nothing. Last night at dinner, I meant to ask my wife to pass the salt and instead I said 'You ruined my life you fucking bitch!'".

Ha!  :lol:

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I gave in..................now I'll need to dust off those old shooting skills (45+ years ago) and run a few rounds through. Not sure how often I'll need to shoot to stay sharp. I'm hoping something like quarterly. Anyway...........life is about adapting I guess. 

IMG_6318.JPG

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They all look the same. What model is that, PB?

If you should ever decide to clean and lube it, clear it TWICE before you get to the part about pulling the trigger.

My brother decided to see how long one could go without cleaning. He gave up and cleaned it at around 20k rounds. Others have gone a lot longer.

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3 hours ago, Cacoethesic Tom said:

They all look the same. What model is that, PB?

If you should ever decide to clean and lube it, clear it TWICE before you get to the part about pulling the trigger.

My brother decided to see how long one could go without cleaning. He gave up and cleaned it at around 20k rounds. Others have gone a lot longer.

It’s the .40 cal Glock 23 4th Gen. Good advice on the clearing. Just like my power tools, I’m pretty obsessive compulsive about safety. Given that my experience is dated, I plan to spend a lot of time initially at the range. I watched a couple Glock vids and racking it twice seems very common. The old 1911 I shot in the military had the hammer exposed so you absolutely knew when it was cocked. Now on the Glock the only hint is the trigger position so I’ll be very attentive and racking twice after the mag is dropped looks good to me. One thing I’m used to is being able to stick my little finger in the breech with the slide locked back and feeling for a round (on the 1911) but the breech is smaller on the Glock so when I did it out of habit (amazing how old habits come back without thinking) when the guy handed me the weapon to look at I was surprised at how small the breech is. The guy just smiled. So racking twice and looking will be my routine. Another thing I’m not used to is the round getting chambered without racking when you put a mag in hard. That will take some getting used to. Regarding the cleaning, the guy selling said they are pretty much bullet proof (get it.......bullet proof........I’ll get my hat now)......but the Glock vids said oil very lightly every 500-1000 rounds and clean around 5000-10,000. I guess the polycarbonate body and only a couple moving metal parts helps. Watched a couple jam clearing vids as well. Looks pretty easy to clear most jams. 

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On 7/7/2020 at 7:16 AM, Point Break said:

It’s the .40 cal Glock 23 4th Gen. Good advice on the clearing. Just like my power tools, I’m pretty obsessive compulsive about safety. Given that my experience is dated, I plan to spend a lot of time initially at the range. I watched a couple Glock vids and racking it twice seems very common. The old 1911 I shot in the military had the hammer exposed so you absolutely knew when it was cocked. Now on the Glock the only hint is the trigger position so I’ll be very attentive and racking twice after the mag is dropped looks good to me. One thing I’m used to is being able to stick my little finger in the breech with the slide locked back and feeling for a round (on the 1911) but the breech is smaller on the Glock so when I did it out of habit (amazing how old habits come back without thinking) when the guy handed me the weapon to look at I was surprised at how small the breech is. The guy just smiled. So racking twice and looking will be my routine. Another thing I’m not used to is the round getting chambered without racking when you put a mag in hard. That will take some getting used to. Regarding the cleaning, the guy selling said they are pretty much bullet proof (get it.......bullet proof........I’ll get my hat now)......but the Glock vids said oil very lightly every 500-1000 rounds and clean around 5000-10,000. I guess the polycarbonate body and only a couple moving metal parts helps. Watched a couple jam clearing vids as well. Looks pretty easy to clear most jams. 

PB, congrats.  I have an early G23 (Gen2) and I love it.  It's never failed or jammed.  It's a bit snappier than a 9mm but tamer than a .45.  What impelled you to buy a handgun?  And in CA yet.  ;)

To the bolded, I'm not sure I'm following you.  Unless I'm just misreading you, you are definitely not chambering a round when you put the mag in hard without running the slide.  I'm obviously just not grokking what you're saying.  

If you are talking about the slide being open when you insert a mag, are you saying the slide is closing on it's own without you thumbing down the slide release.  If so, it's defective, take it back.

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5 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

PB, congrats.  I have an early G23 (Gen2) and I love it.  It's never failed or jammed.  It's a bit snappier than a 9mm but tamer than a .45.  What impelled you to buy a handgun?  And in CA yet.  ;)

To the bolded, I'm not sure I'm following you.  Unless I'm just misreading you, you are definitely not chambering a round when you put the mag in hard without running the slide.  I'm obviously just not grokking what you're saying.  

If you are talking about the slide being open when you insert a mag, are you saying the slide is closing on it's own without you thumbing down the slide release.  If so, it's defective, take it back.

Thanks! Yeah, I never had any ethically issues with gun ownership, just wasn’t interested after being in the military. Things are a bit different nowadays, really most places but especially here in Cali and where I am. So..........I bought one. I enjoyed shooting the range and quals when I was in the service so I expect I might enjoy it again. I certainly will shoot enough to be safe. Hopefully that’s all the shooting I’ll be doing.

So the part about chambering a round when inserting the mag came off a you tube review somebody did. I thought it very odd as well and no other vids about the care and feeding of a G23 4th gen mentioned it. Glad to hear it’s likely not accurate. I’ll try to find the vid again in my history. I tried to stick with those that seemed credible like manufacturer vids etc and skipped “Fred the Nosepicker” look at me shoot my gun vids. I already decided to clarify that point when I pick it up. 

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

So the part about chambering a round when inserting the mag came off a you tube review somebody did. I thought it very odd as well and no other vids about the care and feeding of a G23 4th gen mentioned it. Glad to hear it’s likely not accurate.

It doesn't sound possible to me, unless as Jeff says, the slide is locked back/open and releases upon magazine insertion. Which it should not do, but accidentally hitting the release at that moment could happen, I suppose.

Glocks do jam but it's very rare. My wife managed to get hers to jam by limp-wristing it when firing. If you're not holding it firmly and still, the recoil moves your body instead of the slide because it has nothing to push against. Mine has jammed a couple of times when using an old aftermarket 30 round magazine that I bought used when buying a new one was banned. It has a worn out spring and the last couple of rounds just aren't being pushed hard enough by the spring, causing the gun to jam. I haven't put bullets in that magazine in a very long time. I should probably just toss it out. Buying a new one is legal now, which makes buying a new one uninteresting to me.

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The slide going forward upon slamming a mag home is a gun modification done for competition. Most agree with CT that the slide going forward by just slamming in the mag is a malfunction. The preferred technique is pulling the back of the slide to the rear with the thumb and forefinger and letting go (aka: sling-shotting). Make sure your finger is off the trigger.

Congrats PB!  Go make some noise!

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18 hours ago, Cacoethesic Tom said:

It doesn't sound possible to me, unless as Jeff says, the slide is locked back/open and releases upon magazine insertion. Which it should not do, but accidentally hitting the release at that moment could happen, I suppose.

Glocks do jam but it's very rare. My wife managed to get hers to jam by limp-wristing it when firing. If you're not holding it firmly and still, the recoil moves your body instead of the slide because it has nothing to push against. 

Yeah, the YT that Point is referring to must be talking about jamming a new mag in with the slide open and it closing uncommanded.  Otherwise, the bullet, case, powder and primer would have to melt into a liquid state, flow into the chamber through any gaps in the slide and bolt face and then reassemble itself into the correct molecular components once inside the chamber.  Now THAT would be a trick to see.  Maybe it's being teleported into the chamber.:lol:

And it's interesting that Glocks to me seem especially sensitive to that limp wrist jam issue.  Almost every single female that has ever shot my glocks get stovepipe jams almost right away until I show them how to hold it through the recoil and then it magically goes away.  I've not seen any other guns do that with the frequency of the glock.  I wonder if it's the combo of the light frame and heavy slide.  

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53 minutes ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

The preferred technique is pulling the back of the slide to the rear with the thumb and forefinger and letting go (aka: sling-shotting). Make sure your finger is off the trigger.

Preferred by who (or is it whom)?  Every defensive or combat training class I've ever taken has never taught that technique other than to clear a jam.  Think about it, it's terribly inefficient to use your non-gun hand to reach back and pull the slide after you've just inserted a new mag.  During a reload, the slide will be open (usually), so you're ejecting the one mag while the free hand is reaching for the new mag.  The hand that inserts the mag is essentially already on the grip immediately upon insertion.  It can then just slide right back into the shooting position as the gun hand thumbs the slide release as you're already coming back up on target.  To do the way you suggest, there is a huge amount of wasted effort to bring the off hand up to insert the mag, then you have to rotate the gun 90 as the offhand is reaching back for the slide, pull it back release it, move the offhand back down the gun while your gun hand is trying to get it back to straight again.  And then even if you do the offhand OVER the slide instead of from behind, it's almost worse because you then have to bring the gun down to about waist or belly level to grab the slide and now the gun is totally off the target probably pointing where you don't want it.  

The "preferred way, Assuming a righty, is you continue pointing the gun roughly at the target, as your offhand (left) leaves the grip to reach for the mag, your gun hand (right) is ejecting the empty mag with the right thumb.  The mags pass each other in mid air as the new mag is being brought up to the grip.  The left hand that is hold the new mag stuffs it in and then slides right onto the shooting grip as the right thumb is hitting the slide release.  Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.  

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In most of the self defense classes I've taken, the instructors favor the sling-shot method, primarily because in a gun fight, your motor skills go all to hell. Hitting the Slide Stop Lever properly takes fine motor skills, which you may not have when your life is on the line and the lizard brain reverts to the gross motor functions.

Your way is faster - mine is surer. Youse pays yer money an' takes yer chances.  It's all  a horse race - or a gun fight. 

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18 minutes ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

In most of the self defense classes I've taken, the instructors favor the sling-shot method, primarily because in a gun fight, your motor skills go all to hell. Hitting the Slide Stop Lever properly takes fine motor skills, which you may not have when your life is on the line and the lizard brain reverts to the gross motor functions.

Your way is faster - mine is surer. Youse pays yer money an' takes yer chances.  It's all  a horse race - or a gun fight. 

Practice macke perfectte.......  drille....... drille....... drille..............             :)

 

Musselle memmorey,  the ende alle be alle defaullte...........     - Travis Bickel -    :)

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28 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

Practice macke perfectte.......  drille....... drille....... drille..............             :)

 

Musselle memmorey,  the ende alle be alle defaullte...........     - Travis Bickel -    :)

Youe talkeing too mee

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53 minutes ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

In most of the self defense classes I've taken, the instructors favor the sling-shot method, primarily because in a gun fight, your motor skills go all to hell. Hitting the Slide Stop Lever properly takes fine motor skills, which you may not have when your life is on the line and the lizard brain reverts to the gross motor functions.

Your way is faster - mine is surer. Youse pays yer money an' takes yer chances.  It's all  a horse race - or a gun fight. 

Fair enough. 

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20 hours ago, Cacoethesic Tom said:

...an old aftermarket 30 round magazine that I bought used when buying a new one was banned. It has a worn out spring and the last couple of rounds just aren't being pushed hard enough by the spring, causing the gun to jam. I haven't put bullets in that magazine in a very long time. I should probably just toss it out. Buying a new one is legal now, which makes buying a new one uninteresting to me...

Those old Korean mags are notorious for bad springs.  Wolff Gunsprings https://www.gunsprings.com/  sells high quality replacement springs for ~ $7-9, AFAICR.

But... get the 33 round Glock-brand Happy Sticks when you can.  ;)  Mor funner.

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Okay, I found the vid and rewatched it. The guy did not say slamming the mag hard chambered a round (which is good, I couldn’t make sense of the physics), he said if you slam the mag hard with the slide back it could run forward chambering a round. I misunderstood. Thank goodness! 

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So far as being rattled.....I think it not a real factor for me. Been in life or death situations requiring very rapid decisions? Check. Shot someone? Check check. Likelihood of a gunfight very low? Check. This will be in my house in a hallway or the stairs to my upstairs shoot......max 10 yards. Retreat and call police will be my first option. Will I shoot first? Check check check. Will I shoot till the gun goes click instead of bang? Check. 

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4 hours ago, Burning Man said:

And it's interesting that Glocks to me seem especially sensitive to that limp wrist jam issue.  Almost every single female that has ever shot my glocks get stovepipe jams almost right away until I show them how to hold it through the recoil and then it magically goes away.  I've not seen any other guns do that with the frequency of the glock.  I wonder if it's the combo of the light frame and heavy slide.  

Damn, it’s not just my gun that does that?  Been fighting it for 32 years!  I’ve only had it happen a couple of times to me, but several other people that have shot it have had it stovepipe on them. Just replaced the recoil spring and rod, as the slide was not fully returning when you held the trigger and gently released the slide with the muzzle straight up.  It’ll be interesting to see if it makes any noticeable difference at the range. Just ordered a Hogue Handall Beavertail grip.  

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7 hours ago, Burning Man said:

And it's interesting that Glocks to me seem especially sensitive to that limp wrist jam issue.  Almost every single female that has ever shot my glocks get stovepipe jams almost right away until I show them how to hold it through the recoil and then it magically goes away.  I've not seen any other guns do that with the frequency of the glock.  I wonder if it's the combo of the light frame and heavy slide.  

Those two things and also, in the case of the 27, there's not much grip in the first place. My wife and I both put +1 grip extensions on ours not so much for the extra round but for one more place for a finger to grab.

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2 hours ago, Point Break said:

So far as being rattled.....I think it not a real factor for me. Been in life or death situations requiring very rapid decisions? Check. Shot someone? Check check. Likelihood of a gunfight very low? Check. This will be in my house in a hallway or the stairs to my upstairs shoot......max 10 yards. Retreat and call police will be my first option. Will I shoot first? Check check check. Will I shoot till the gun goes click instead of bang? Check. 

check ;)

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25 minutes ago, Cacoethesic Tom said:

Those two things and also, in the case of the 27, there's not much grip in the first place. My wife and I both put +1 grip extensions on ours not so much for the extra round but for one more place for a finger to grab.

That's precisely why I don't care for the 27.  I bought one for my ex, and I never liked shooting it.  She had small hands and still it was too short even for her.  But at the time, that was all there was in the smaller frame guns.  She found my G17 and 23 too big for her hands.  

That's why I just bought the G43x.  I loves me some G17, 19 and 23 because I have slightly larger than average hands.  But they are fat for CC.  The 43x is the single stack 9mm in the medium frame size.  It feels sublime.  

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50 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Lots of info on the inter webs and vids about limp wrist causing stove pipes with the 23.

Which proves that Glocks are not for liberals.  :ph34r:

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7 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Which proves that Glocks are not for liberals.  :ph34r:

I must be the exception that proves the rule. No stovepipes ever across four different Glock models.

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With my sub-compact Glock, the carry mag has a Glock +2 Extension. My reload is a full-sized G17 mag. More ammo and a full-sized grip.

You can safely use a larger capacity mag with smaller Glock. However, S&W M&P, the Springfields and others require a mag with a collet, so the mag can't be driven too far into the gun, fubaring it. 

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11 minutes ago, Dorado said:

Deciding factor  ?

Two things......they are a LEO store so almost all semi's. They did have a Colt Python.......which I really liked but..........$1500 versus $400 for the G23.

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1 hour ago, BravoBravo said:

Does your wife shoot the G23? and why did you choose the.40 over 9mm ?

No, she isn't interested in shooting at all. Fine with me, since I'm retired she is always with me at home so I'll be the shooter if - heavens forbid - any shooting is required. .40 for the little extra knockdown. I am looking for something that will result in a knockdown/threat end with any center mass hit. My LEO buddies suggest its the caliber (depending on your ammo of course) that gets the sweet spot between recoil and knockdown. They suggest controlling recoil and getting back on target is the key to tight groupings in multi round shoots. Like I mentioned above.....my plan is to shoot till the gun goes click click click which hopefully will be after all 13 rounds........the G23 can adapt to 9mm with a barrel change but.....I'll shoot the .40 with some 180 gr HP and see. I'd go with the .45 1911 if there was one available...which there wasn't. Apparently everybody wants one. I'd go with a tactical shotgun as my first choice.....say something like a Remi 870 with 18" barrel....loaded with buckshot as the first two shells and slugs after that but I can't find one anywhere. Less chance the rounds will pass through the house walls and cause trouble somewhere else.

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On 7/9/2020 at 5:45 PM, Point Break said:

 Will I shoot till the gun goes click instead of bang? Check. 

You don't want to do that.  A justifiable shooting is to stop an imminent threat. Once the threat is no longer imminent, (bad guy on floor or retreating) you had best stop shooting. 

Ask your LEO friends about what's referred to as CAL CRIM. That's the instructions to jurors in court cases to determine if the use of deadly force is justified for self defense. 

Every gun owner should know this document inside and out. Could be the difference between freedom or doing time for manslaughter. 

I'm serious here. Find it and read it. 

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To further Dorado's cogent points - everyone should get some good, professional training.  I took Massad Ayoob's MAG 20.  We never touched a gun, but dealt strictly with the reason, morality and legality of self-defense. Two 12 hour days. Eye opening. I had no idea what I didn't know... And how much of what little I did know was wrong. 

https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Force-Understanding-Right-Defense/dp/1440240612/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=massad+ayoob&link_code=qs&qid=1594443493&sourceid=Mozilla-search&sr=8-2&tag=mozilla-20

https://www.amazon.com/Law-Self-Defense-Indispensable-Citizen/dp/1943809143/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=massad+ayoob&link_code=qs&qid=1594443595&sourceid=Mozilla-search&sr=8-7&tag=mozilla-20

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6 hours ago, Point Break said:

No, she isn't interested in shooting at all. Fine with me, since I'm retired she is always with me at home so I'll be the shooter if - heavens forbid - any shooting is required. .40 for the little extra knockdown. I am looking for something that will result in a knockdown/threat end with any center mass hit. My LEO buddies suggest its the caliber (depending on your ammo of course) that gets the sweet spot between recoil and knockdown. They suggest controlling recoil and getting back on target is the key to tight groupings in multi round shoots. Like I mentioned above.....my plan is to shoot till the gun goes click click click which hopefully will be after all 13 rounds........the G23 can adapt to 9mm with a barrel change but.....I'll shoot the .40 with some 180 gr HP and see. I'd go with the .45 1911 if there was one available...which there wasn't. Apparently everybody wants one. I'd go with a tactical shotgun as my first choice.....say something like a Remi 870 with 18" barrel....loaded with buckshot as the first two shells and slugs after that but I can't find one anywhere. Less chance the rounds will pass through the house walls and cause trouble somewhere else.

I agree with you that the .40S&W is the sweet spot between the 9mm - which is notorious for sometimes not getting the job done - and a .45 which is the gold standard in 1 or 2 shot threat ending.  I bought my 23 for exactly the same reason and at the time, many LEO Depts were running .40 at the time for that reason too.  For some reason, most PD's have gone back to the 9mm as the norm.  Not sure why.  Probably cheaper ammo and commonality of the round.  Not that .40 is hard to get.  

I sort of agree with the thought about NOT emptying the mag if you don't have to.  But the reality is the adrenaline is likely to make you miss a lot and you will more than likely end up empty anyway.  But yeah, if the body has 13 center mass hits - you're going to have some 'splaining to do, Lucy.  The other thing that looks good to a prosecutor or jury is if you tried to do emergency care on him before he died.  So even if he's already dead, I would break out the med kit and start doing some CPR and putting bandages on the wounds.  Because maybe he's just "mostly" dead.  ;)

Also, as you well know - unlike Hollywood Glocks, they don't go click click click when empty.  The slide just locks back and then there is no sound, except hopefully your home invader bleeding out.  

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I'm not a fan of the .40. Its recoil is very snappy versus the "shovey" recoil of the .45. I also like to practice at longer distances at the (outdoor) range and the .45 with subsonic loads is much more accurate in my hands.

That said, my (non-shooting) wife prefers the .40. We found this out by accident at a training course where they had her try the 9, .40, and .45 and she took to the .40 like a duck to water. 

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Just now, Burning Man said:

I'd go with the .45 1911 if there was one available...which there wasn't. Apparently everybody wants one. I'd go with a tactical shotgun as my first choice.....say something like a Remi 870 with 18" barrel....loaded with buckshot as the first two shells and slugs after that but I can't find one anywhere. Less chance the rounds will pass through the house walls and cause trouble somewhere else.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  I love 1911s, but I think your G23 is a far better suited tool for your desired task.  There's a lot to be said for 13 rounds vs 7.  And unless you practice everyday and shoot thousands of rounds a year, those extras are going to come in handy in the heat of the moment.  

Also, I too a big fan of the tac shotty.  But I've never understood when people say they would use slugs.  Why?  Unless you have a hoard (or is it a pack?) of slow moving zombies lurching up your driveway, I'm not sure that the slug is going to do anything that 00 Buck isn't going to do at close range.  In fact, I'm sort of a fan of #4 buck for the fact that you have a slightly bigger pattern and more projectiles.  I've shot 00 at hallway or bedroom distances and you can easily miss unless you're taking some reasonable amount of time to aim.  The pattern is not filling an entire doorway.

If you really want an 870, I'm sure I can easily get you one here next door in CA Lite.  In fact I have a buddy selling one from an estate sale for $250.  But it's a bird gun and not a tactical.  But a barrel can't be that much money to go to an 18" and add a tube extension.

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4 minutes ago, IStream said:

I'm not a fan of the .40. Its recoil is very snappy versus the "shovey" recoil of the .45. I also like to practice at longer distances at the (outdoor) range and the .45 with subsonic loads is much more accurate in my hands.

 

Yeah, the .40 is very snappy compared to the .45.  The 9mm is just kinda "flippy".  As in it's a mild flip.  On a heavy handgun like a 1911, the.45 is manageable.  But I've shot .45 Glocks and I don't like them.  As PB said, I find it hard to get back on target as quickly as the 9 or .40.  

I shoot 147s in my 9mm Glocks as I prefer to shoot suppressed and the heavier bullets are subsonic as well.  With the suppressor, there is very little recoil and it's nice not to have to wear muffs when it > 100F outside.  

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19 minutes ago, IStream said:

True dat.

Yep.  Almost as bad as the .44Mag S&W revolver I shot a few weeks ago.  My buddy and I were out in the desert shooting just a few weeks ago and he brought out his big cannon.  It was not quite as big as the Dirty Harry version, but I think one barrel length below it.  I handed it back after 6 rounds and said no thank you to any more.  It literally jarred the bones in my hand.  

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On 12/23/2019 at 7:04 AM, hasher said:

The safest thing you can do is not carry.

My son has a shotgun in the corner of his bedroom.

Some might call me a bad influence in this regard.

He was in the shower when his home alarm sounded.  He jumped out soaking wet and ran down the stairs ready to confront the intruders.  And then he let the lady in who was there to clean the house.

Did the lady let him in afterwards? :P

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12 hours ago, Dorado said:

You don't want to do that.  A justifiable shooting is to stop an imminent threat. Once the threat is no longer imminent, (bad guy on floor or retreating) you had best stop shooting. 

Ask your LEO friends about what's referred to as CAL CRIM. That's the instructions to jurors in court cases to determine if the use of deadly force is justified for self defense. 

Every gun owner should know this document inside and out. Could be the difference between freedom or doing time for manslaughter. 

I'm serious here. Find it and read it. 

I understand as well. My comment was more to the point of firing till the threat is over, not driving rounds into someone already incapacitated. There will be some judgement necessary. If the confrontation is only physical, once the bad guy goes down.....thats good enough. If the bad guy is armed.....even down they can shoot so I'd have to evaluate "how down" and react. Hopefully I would been a position to retreat and evaluate after the bad guy goes down, and I'd be thrilled if they chose to retreat instead. The advice I got - only partly sarcastic - from an LEO buddy was 1) make sure its in your house 2) do not shout warnings, if they are already in your house, thats threat enough. Warnings give the bad guy an advantage 3) shoot till the threat is over and stop 4) dead bad guys don't argue the circumstances in court...but those are situational decisions. I'm not sure about no warning.....seems like an over reaction. However.............your advice is appreciated. I have read a little about it but I'll avail myself of your links (and those Charlie posted as well). 

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1 hour ago, BravoBravo said:

I thought, if I ever get to the point, of intentionally having my wife test fire a heavier caliber before trying the 9mm I think would be the final choice... agree about shotgun slugs... keep firing double or 4 ought! 

The advice I got was the 2 buckshot loads slows the threat down and when followed with a slug that ends the threat. 

You know...........I REALLY hate talking about this shit. Wish the world was evolving to a better not a worse place. Oh well................

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Probably going to regret this (again) but in my 70 years I don't know a single person who has needed to or defended himself with a gun. Have been everywhere but most in around Houston. I know several who have successfully taken themselves out with a handgun including my brother.  I also have a friend whose daughter was ruled a suicide by handgun when her husband was there.  A small town neighboring Houston and there was no GSR or investigation and the guy was never charged and inherited  half the business owned by my friend and her daughter.  In the early 90s on a Saturday I came within a few seconds or feet of shooting an asshole who was dumping tires in my company dumpster - I escalated the situation because I knew just behind me I had 1911 reasons I could win that one. Without it? Truck description, license number, shut the metal door and call the cops.

YMMV.   I like guns and have a few odd types including a WWII Browning Hi Power 9mm my dad brought back from the big one. He also brought back a few others including a pristine pre-war Luger that my nephew has. The only things I have shot in many years besides targets are water moccasins and feral hogs.  My brother had an arsenal - a Ft Knox safe filled to capacity, tons of reloads etc. He never went anywhere unarmed. Lifetime NRA etc - one time many years ago at a family ranch a cousin asked him what he had - he pulled out 11 different weapons. After he died I gave his son some advice on what to do with them but declined to get further involved.

 

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34 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Probably going to regret this (again) but in my 70 years I don't know a single person who has needed to or defended himself with a gun. Have been everywhere but most in around Houston. I know several who have successfully taken themselves out with a handgun including my brother.  I also have a friend whose daughter was ruled a suicide by handgun when her husband was there.  A small town neighboring Houston and there was no GSR or investigation and the guy was never charged and inherited  half the business owned by my friend and her daughter.  In the early 90s on a Saturday I came within a few seconds or feet of shooting an asshole who was dumping tires in my company dumpster - I escalated the situation because I knew just behind me I had 1911 reasons I could win that one. Without it? Truck description, license number, shut the metal door and call the cops.

YMMV.   I like guns and have a few odd types including a WWII Browning Hi Power 9mm my dad brought back from the big one. He also brought back a few others including a pristine pre-war Luger that my nephew has. The only things I have shot in many years besides targets are water moccasins and feral hogs.  My brother had an arsenal - a Ft Knox safe filled to capacity, tons of reloads etc. He never went anywhere unarmed. Lifetime NRA etc - one time many years ago at a family ranch a cousin asked him what he had - he pulled out 11 different weapons. After he died I gave his son some advice on what to do with them but declined to get further involved.

 

Believe me, it has been a long and sad internal debate. I fervently hope that I join the ranks of never had to defend myself or most important, Mrs PB. I do not have any criticism for anyone who disagrees with my decision..........I'm not sure I agree with it. But.............I simply judged the culture has changed for a while anyway. I'll share the final precipitating event.

I currently reside in a city that has been in the news a lot for numerous political "rallies" on both sides of the current cultural agonies. Those don't really bother me. While most were simply overwrought persons having puffy chested shouting and pushing contests, several had what was reported as ANTIFA activists in the mix. At one point the PD reported they were finding caches of homemade weapons around the city the night before one of the "protests". On the day of my revelation, in the wake of a fairly disorganized "march" to the civic center, a group of 3 persons on skateboards with masks and full backpacks stopped in front of our house on a residential street. They stopped and stood pointing at our house, the house on either side and several on both sides of the street while conversing amongst themselves. After several minutes they got back on their skateboards and skated off in the wake of the "march". I judged they were not simply passionate BLM protestors or admiring my landscaping work......and there I stood watching through the window with nothing but a golf club in my hand, and the police were very busy elsewhere. I'll certainly not be among those who rush outside and confront "protestors", not looking for a fight but................not looking to be victim either. It was an important moment in my decision. 

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3 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Believe me, it has been a long and sad internal debate. I fervently hope that I join the ranks of never had to defend myself or most important, Mrs PB. I do not have any criticism for anyone who disagrees with my decision..........I'm not sure I agree with it. But.............I simply judged the culture has changed for a while anyway. I'll share the final precipitating event.

I currently reside in a city that has been in the news a lot for numerous political "rallies" on both sides of the current cultural agonies. Those don't really bother me. While most were simply overwrought persons having puffy chested shouting and pushing contests, several had what was reported as ANTIFA activists in the mix. At one point the PD reported they were finding caches of homemade weapons around the city the night before one of the "protests". On the day of my revelation, in the wake of a fairly disorganized "march" to the civic center, a group of 3 persons on skateboards with masks and full backpacks stopped in front of our house on a residential street. They stopped and stood pointing at our house, the house on either side and several on both sides of the street while conversing amongst themselves. After several minutes they got back on their skateboards and skated off in the wake of the "march". I judged they were not simply passionate BLM protestors......and there I stood watching through the window with nothing but a golf club in my hand, and the police were very busy elsewhere. I'll certainly not be among those who rush outside and confront "protestors", not looking for a fight but................not looking to be victim either. It was an important moment in my decision. 

No arguments from me there - although I think the radical right is the real threat. Meanwhile gun violence is increasing in Houston. Road rage, robberies, whatever not a day goes by without a shooting here. I attribute at least some of it to the financial frustrations (unemployed) and just overall frustrations at being helpless in an ongoing catastrophe with no end in sight.  What got me to post here was remembering on a trip to the ranch I asked my bro what he was carrying, he pulled out his deluxe 1911 with 3 different alternating rounds - black talon, hollow point and something else with the explanation of one takes them down, one keeps them down and one blows them up or something like that. I have lost count of friends and acquaintances who have stockpiled arsenals of weapons and ammo in preparation for the coming apocalypse. Lots of assault types and thousands of rounds of ammo.  One guy in Beaumont told me he and his buds had split a pallet of ammo.

It's sure made me a more passive and careful driver as road rage seems to be on the rise.  For me it's just risk assessment so it would take me a few minutes to arm up - which is a good thing when the assholes on the next block on the 4th did their best to imitate a mortar attack until midnight.  Like the count to ten means it's premeditated.  FWIW I took my flashlight and went for a walk and just stared at them from across the street. They got more and more uncomfortable and finally decided the party was over. My neighborhood is one of those small areas between cities and in Texas you can blow shit up all night long. 

Twice a year I do consider making it a lot more exciting so better to leave all that shit put up. I don't want to become infamous here or anywhere else.

 

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49 minutes ago, Point Break said:

.....and there I stood watching through the window with nothing but a golf club in my hand, and the police were very busy elsewhere. I'll certainly not be among those who rush outside and confront "protestors", not looking for a fight but................not looking to be victim either. It was an important moment in my decision. 

 

05247DA9-1F20-4304-901F-A0586209EE7B.jpeg

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36 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

I must be getting slow, I just today realized that Burning Man is Jeffro's latest sock puppet....:blink:

Is it still a sock if everyone knows it's Jeff, Jeff never hid it was Jeff, and Jeff never agreed with Jeff?

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On you tube - look up a guy under "Active Self Protection" He takes video's of actual confrontations & breaks them down, assessing moves/tactics/legality. Seems very straightforward with his opinions & is referred to by other channels. 

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57 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

No arguments from me there - although I think the radical right is the real threat. Meanwhile gun violence is increasing in Houston. Road rage, robberies, whatever not a day goes by without a shooting here. I attribute at least some of it to the financial frustrations (unemployed) and just overall frustrations at being helpless in an ongoing catastrophe with no end in sight.  What got me to post here was remembering on a trip to the ranch I asked my bro what he was carrying, he pulled out his deluxe 1911 with 3 different alternating rounds - black talon, hollow point and something else with the explanation of one takes them down, one keeps them down and one blows them up or something like that. I have lost count of friends and acquaintances who have stockpiled arsenals of weapons and ammo in preparation for the coming apocalypse. Lots of assault types and thousands of rounds of ammo.  One guy in Beaumont told me he and his buds had split a pallet of ammo.

It's sure made me a more passive and careful driver as road rage seems to be on the rise.  For me it's just risk assessment so it would take me a few minutes to arm up - which is a good thing when the assholes on the next block on the 4th did their best to imitate a mortar attack until midnight.  Like the count to ten means it's premeditated.  FWIW I took my flashlight and went for a walk and just stared at them from across the street. They got more and more uncomfortable and finally decided the party was over. My neighborhood is one of those small areas between cities and in Texas you can blow shit up all night long. 

Twice a year I do consider making it a lot more exciting so better to leave all that shit put up. I don't want to become infamous here or anywhere else.

 

I think there are plenty of groups prone to and advocating violence across the political spectrum. I also agree there are more extremest groups on the right...,.although its hard to describe groups with violent intent as right or left. They are terrorists....all of them. If they advocate violence no matter what the reason, they'll get the same reaction from me. 

I have always been a fairly placid driver and avoid those gesturing wildly and shouting. Sometimes I can't help myself and I laugh or just smile. Some are embarrassed and drive off and some it seems to infuriate but......sometimes its just funny. Usually they sputter and spit and accelerate off in a cloud of exhaust. Whatever. If I approach a light with one still engaged I leave myself room to leave from the car ahead. I actually have pulled off the freeway once because I had one sputtering and braking in front etc. I just got off the freeway and waited a few minutes and drive on. In my view those people are not going to be reasonable so non engage is my approach. If I am at fault (didn't notice something) I have found that a "sorry" my bad motion stops the reaction in its tracks. 

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1 hour ago, billy backstay said:

I must be getting slow, I just today realized that Burning Man is Jeffro's latest sock puppet....:blink:

He botched up or they botched up his usual handle, don't remember which......so that is his new one. I don't think he has been secretive or evasive about it. 

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Words to live (longer) by PB - thanks to our state fuckups my driving has been cut way down, much easier to stay calm when not spending hours in city traffic. I will sure remember your advice the next time I encounter somebody having a really really bad day.

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An old cop I know once told me a large crowd of human beings (he was referring essentially to a riot) is the most dangerous critter that has ever walked the face of the earth. I believe it. The sum total of it's power is far beyond what even a rabid crack-addled T-rex can muster up. Only need to kill one thing to stop that. 

 Shooting at a crowd and trying to intimidate it is a questionable strategy.  Might work, but if it doesn't you're totally fucked. My advise is DO NOT DISPLAY FEAR. Crowd psy is primal, brain-stem stuff. It can and does smell fear and is drawn towards it. If I had one of those protest crowds gathering near my place I would buy a few cases of water and start handing them out to some of the nearest.  Those closest are either going to be your best friends or your worst enemies. The only attainable goal is not be one of it's targets. Not all that different from the old joke about two guys trying to outrun a bear are only trying to outrun each other. 

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5 minutes ago, Mark K said:

An old cop I know once told me a large crowd of human beings (he was referring essentially to a riot) is the most dangerous critter that has ever walked the face of the earth. I believe it. The sum total of it's power is far beyond what even a rabid crack-addled T-rex can muster up. Only need to kill one thing to stop that. 

 Shooting at a crowd and trying to intimidate it is a questionable strategy.  Might work, but if it doesn't you're totally fucked. My advise is DO NOT DISPLAY FEAR. Crowd psy is primal, brain-stem stuff. It can and does smell fear and is drawn towards it. If I had one of those protest crowds gathering near my place I would buy a few cases of water and start handing them out to some of the nearest.  Those closest are either going to be your best friends or your worst enemies. The only attainable goal is not be one of it's targets. Not all that different from the old joke about two guys trying to outrun a bear are only trying to outrun each other. 

I had a neighbor down the street hang a couple BLM flags on his house. Unsolicited he felt it important to tell me he didn't really agree with the premise but didn't want to be a target. :huh: On one hand his logic was impeccable. I like the hand out water idea, I'll file that away. I've been around any number of riots over my career and you are right.....angry crowds are way different animals. You can see it spinning up toward trouble. 

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11 minutes ago, Point Break said:

I had a neighbor down the street hang a couple BLM flags on his house. Unsolicited he felt it important to tell me he didn't really agree with the premise but didn't want to be a target. :huh: On one hand his logic was impeccable. I like the hand out water idea, I'll file that away. I've been around any number of riots over my career and you are right.....angry crowds are way different animals. You can see it spinning up toward trouble. 

Sometimes... 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Point Break said:

 I'll certainly not be among those who rush outside and confront "protestors", not looking for a fight but................not looking to be victim either. It was an important moment in my decision. 

Timeng ist evereythinge.... ounce the decisione ist made, give it evereythinge......   then moire...                  :)                 

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3 hours ago, billy backstay said:

I must be getting slow, I just today realized that Burning Man is Jeffro's latest sock puppet....:blink:

It’s not a sock. His original persona was (Hastily) flicked and he was allowed back. But they were unable to restore his old account. 

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Telling my son how hard it is to find 9M rounds recently, he asked why I need ammo during a pandemic. I told him that I need it to defend my ammo stock - ha ha!

Then, someone asked me if I confront non mask wearers - Fuck no! I live in Oregon and I don't want to get shot!

I'm going for my CCL or was...

A discussion then ensued regarding carrying a gun at all and how that would help an agitated situation. Which we kinda concluded was not good! If the 'opponent' is not trained and armed, I'm in serious danger, regardless of how well practiced and trained I am.

The kook on the other side is the wild card... me pulling a gun might just make all that worse!

I'm conflicted....

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9 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Love mine!!! :D Homemade potato and bacon soup. Also homemade tomato basil..............I love this thing.

Roasted plumme tomatoe sause, spinnich or broccolli soupe, ist alle beatifulle..........                  :)

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6 minutes ago, Liquid said:

 

Telling my son how hard it is to find 9M rounds recently, he asked why I need ammo during a pandemic. I told him that I need it to defend my ammo stock - ha ha!

Then, someone asked me if I confront non mask wearers - Fuck no! I live in Oregon and I don't want to get shot!

I'm going for my CCL or was...

A discussion then ensued regarding carrying a gun at all and how that would help an agitated situation. Which we kinda concluded was not good! If the 'opponent' is not trained and armed, I'm in serious danger, regardless of how well practiced and trained I am.

The kook on the other side is the wild card... me pulling a gun might just make all that worse!

I'm conflicted....

It is conflicting. Retired serviceman. College competitive shooter. Comfortable in tense situations and around guns.  Not a hunter and moving around the world in the service made having a personal gun more of a pain than it was worth. Big believer that more family members than intruders are hurt by guns so having a gun when we had kids in the house would have been serious lockup and not readily available for home defence. Have lived where I’m In the minority demographic several times and found people are people so being the white face in the crowd has never bothered me. 
 

But...Recent events have my wife and I talking about “what if?”  We are now empty nesters and live at the end of the road in a rural area and the house is 800’ off off the road. Any LEO is at least 15 minutes away.  Generally low crime area, but we are also pretty defenceless. 
 

So far, we did some looking at what was available but have decided the answer is we don’t need a gun in the house. Would not take much to change our mind. We are on a nearly mile long peninsula with one road in/out so easy for someone to be cut off back here.  Anyone with a brain will cause trouble elsewhere.  

 

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