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3 minutes ago, Jules said:

For anyone who owns a Precision Sail, what's your opinion?  Would you buy from them again?

They will be outta business in 2 years

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8 minutes ago, Clyde said:

Thay already are out of business.

They are doing a pretty good imitation of being in business because they sent me an email yesterday.  While a few electrons floating over the internet is proof of nothing, at least someone, somewhere is acting like they are around.

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All of the bigger sailing/cruising  Vloggers/Youtubers  are using them. Which leads me to believe only because they are the cheapest option and 
the  vloggers are endorsing them for really no good reason other than they are getting good cheap or fres stufft. If you have a service issue, which
of their lofts do you call?   

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1 hour ago, Cristoforo said:

All of the bigger sailing/cruising  Vloggers/Youtubers  are using them. Which leads me to believe only because they are the cheapest option and 
the  vloggers are endorsing them for really no good reason other than they are getting good cheap or fres stufft. If you have a service issue, which
of their lofts do you call?   

On the east coast you could try the middle white door 6148 Hutchison in Montreal. (got to admit it does not look promising for a sail loft). On the other hand if you had no luck you'd be a ten minute walk from what might be the best bagel shop in the world - open 7/24

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On the west coast (given the preponderance of BC folks at Precision this is more promising) you could try 122-1039 Langford Parkway Victoria, BC. Which looks more like a place of work.

But probably all the “real” work gets done off shore.

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Weird that they might be out of business.... because I just got my budget sails from them last year and I'm getting ready to order more this year :lol: :lol::lol:

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For the price, they CAN NOT be beat. At all. Or spend (literally) 5x as much on some nice North Sails. Be my guest, I spent the money I saved instead on a new (to me) Ducati as I'm just a PHRF sailor. I've ordered sails from Quantum and some other big names before and their customer service has always sucked for my taste... especially for the price...

These guys were a PLEASURE to work with. We looked at 3D models of my sails in order to get them exactly how I wanted them (the camber where I wanted, the reefs at the exact % that I wanted, the draft stripes where I wanted, the number of tell tales, etc etc etc).

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1 hour ago, Floating Duck said:

Be my guest, I spent the money I saved instead on a new (to me) Ducati as I'm just a PHRF sailor.

It is really hard to argue with Sails+Ducati versus Sails.  

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2 hours ago, Floating Duck said:

Weird that they might be out of business.... because I just got my budget sails from them last year and I'm getting ready to order more this year :lol: :lol::lol:

115855064_ScreenShot2019-11-26at5_22_18PM.thumb.png.c712f2c8e815347f7673a688fcc64488.png

For the price, they CAN NOT be beat. At all. Or spend (literally) 5x as much on some nice North Sails. Be my guest, I spent the money I saved instead on a new (to me) Ducati as I'm just a PHRF sailor. I've ordered sails from Quantum and some other big names before and their customer service has always sucked for my taste... especially for the price...

These guys were a PLEASURE to work with. We looked at 3D models of my sails in order to get them exactly how I wanted them (the camber where I wanted, the reefs at the exact % that I wanted, the draft stripes where I wanted, the number of tell tales, etc etc etc).

I looked at precision and north thoroughly.  For cruising 40 footer I got a 135 genoa from north, after deciding the extra 1200 bux was worth it to have a buddy of mine at north as a contact.  Also to know for certain that the sail was premium quality and to have a local contact in case there were issues.  So the extra 20 percent in cost was worth it in my view (definitely not 5x as much).  That's for comparable sailcloth, rope luff for furling, radial cut.  If you go with the bottom of the line with crap cloth and crosscut, foam luff, ya you can get a precision sail for half the price because north won't make that sort of garbage sail.  But then you have a shit sail that looks like a potato sack after a season or so.

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1 hour ago, bgytr said:

If you go with the bottom of the line with crap cloth and crosscut, foam luff, ya you can get a precision sail for half the price because north won't make that sort of garbage sail. 

I fully agree! Good thing I went for some DP in a radial fashion as you can see from the shitty picture :lol::lol: hahaha hilarious

Nice to have a “buddy” as a contact at North though. I wish we were all as lucky as you!

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They are decent.  Buy now!  25% off on series 400 dacron for black friday.  other stuff on sale too.

Like an idiot, I paid full pop in the spring on a sail that didn't get used this summer and buddy said "There's nothing I can do" when I asked for a price break on repeat business.  Kinda pissed to see this sale now.

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16 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

All of the bigger sailing/cruising  Vloggers/Youtubers  are using them. Which leads me to believe only because they are the cheapest option and 
the  vloggers are endorsing them for really no good reason other than they are getting good cheap or fres stufft. If you have a service issue, which
of their lofts do you call?   

The notion that local lofts provide 'service' is bunk.  Many of the guys who run them can barely find their own ass, let alone run a business t(hat should be ) focused on service.

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I just have an old 23' O'day, so no fancy sails but I got what I wanted - a nice genoa and mainsail, oversized as requested, lots of reef points... I will absolutely go back again for their service and responsiveness compared to what I received with North Sails who is literally around the block from me.

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1 hour ago, JustNuts said:

The notion that local lofts provide 'service' is bunk.  Many of the guys who run them can barely find their own ass, let alone run a business t(hat should be ) focused on service.

Maybe they just don’t like you? 

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4 hours ago, John Baxter said:

You 100% get what you pay for!...You pay 1/2 price you get 1/2 the quality and design or less. 

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Is that what you call "speed wrinkles"

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6 hours ago, John Baxter said:

You 100% get what you pay for!...You pay 1/2 price you get 1/2 the quality and design or less. 

What fabric and weight is this spin built from? 

When did you take the pic? (After first unpacking the kite? After using for a while? Etc)

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8 hours ago, John Baxter said:

You 100% get what you pay for!...You pay 1/2 price you get 1/2 the quality and design or less. 

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Omg that’s the worst case of bad patches and bad seaming I’ve seen in many many years. It’s almost like they have no idea how to make a flat corner patch. The seams are all put down with different tensions causing major distortion. That sail will never achieve its design shape. I would demand my money back.

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More to the point is you get what you pay for. As some have pointed out they are very happy with their sails, but then again they may just not know  and would be happy with this as frankly they have nothing to really compare it to. which is ok. If you want to be the sailmaker and design your own sails and specify shapes and where the things like the draft stripes go etc these guys give you that ability and when it all goes bad they are not to blame. The question was asked and in my professional opinion the results speak for themselves. Doesn't matter if the sail was new first time up or used 10 times. I can assure you that sail only gets worse from there.  

In closing Precision is not a sailmaker..meaning they do not make their sails. They are a broker and simply chuck their label on them.

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13 minutes ago, John Baxter said:

More to the point is you get what you pay for. As some have pointed out they are very happy with their sails, but then again they may just not know  and would be happy with this as frankly they have nothing to really compare it to. which is ok. 

A 10yr old name brand sail in most instances I would think. 

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I was very happy with the price and the service and extremely happy with the sails when I got them.  Last spring I bought a mainsail with 3 reefs and a jib with 1 reef.  I worked with them carefully on the sail design.  We did this by phone and live computer link where I could see the design changes in real time. I had the designer adapt the sail shape to my exact specifications. Then, through no fault of their own, some of the sewing was not good on the jib. They gave me a whole new sail.    So, all in all, I could not be happier.  I'd recommend them to anyone other than a professional racer. 

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On 11/28/2019 at 3:39 PM, Foolish said:

I was very happy with the price and the service and extremely happy with the sails when I got them.  Last spring I bought a mainsail with 3 reefs and a jib with 1 reef.  I worked with them carefully on the sail design.  We did this by phone and live computer link where I could see the design changes in real time. I had the designer adapt the sail shape to my exact specifications. Then, through no fault of their own, some of the sewing was not good on the jib. They gave me a whole new sail.    So, all in all, I could not be happier.  I'd recommend them to anyone other than a professional racer. 

Some lofts will build you a sail you don’t even have to return! 

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Quote

Some lofts will build you a sail you don’t even have to return! 

I've always felt that the true measure of good service is not when everything goes right, but how they deal when something goes wrong.  So for Precision, I got a well designed sail and good service at a good price.

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If your after a cheap sail, and do not care who builds them, order away.
If your mast is not bendy but a straight stick then even a mainsail is easy to measure. If you have a bendy mast you will spend hours defining prebend. And that will show when using the sail. Getting this right costs money in manufacturing and more time behind computer.
Check price with Rolly Tasker as they are using cheap labour too, but in a good loft (working conditions, child labour, decent wages, even environmental Thailand is upping the game). RT has a reputation to use bigger hardware then needed instead of under dimensioning it.

Precision is totally hiding where there sails are build. Never a good sign, are they chasing the cheaper lofts ?
Probably by the companies that started with ex China Sails employees.
At least for instance Doyle Germany is clear that they come form Sri Lanka.

Their videos show that they not transport it from where ever it is made in rolled up packages but they fold them.
And bragging on way higher specs/quality then most lofts for half the price, while pointing at details that are mediocre or nothing special at best.
 



If

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Wow.  A promo vid that actually would make even a newb' sailor go elsewhere.  Truly awful.  Their website doesn't inspire confidence, here's an alleged pic of their highest end racing carbon main:

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7 hours ago, LeoV said:

Their videos show that they not transport it from where ever it is made in rolled up packages but they fold them.

Oh wait, that's a pic of their base model Dacron offering, viewable when you click on Racing Mains.

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"Their videos show that they not transport it from where ever it is made in rolled up packages but they fold them."

Why is that a problem?  The last North 3-DL genoa I bought was freight shipped to my boat and it was expertly folded into a surprisingly small box.

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They pretend to deliver high end sails better then most lofts, so that fold surprised me. I ordered more then 30 high end sail suits in EU for a yard, all came rolled up.
Maybe I am spoiled.

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18 minutes ago, LeoV said:

They pretend to deliver high end sails better then most lofts, so that fold surprised me. I ordered more then 30 high end sail suits in EU for a yard, all came rolled up.
Maybe I am spoiled.

Well maybe I live in the cheap seats.

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On 11/28/2019 at 2:16 PM, Cristoforo said:

I’m not sure I would buy a sail from Them based  on anyone who would produce such a crappy sail as those photos show and put their label on it. 

They look like wood pile covers.

That probably the best use for those sails

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On 11/27/2019 at 8:54 AM, John Baxter said:

You 100% get what you pay for!...You pay 1/2 price you get 1/2 the quality and design or less. 

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Not that it’s relevant but what type of boat was this kite built for?

And I would expect them they to rebuild that kite. 

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We were at the St. Pete's boat show yesterday.  Got a quote for a 135% headsail from Doyle. 

Material: 7.4 Supercruise Constructed with Cross Cut Panel Layout - 404.35 SQ/FT
Cross Cut 135% Roller Furler Genoa
Price: $ 3183.00, Show 19: $2865.00

Material: 344 Pro-Radial Constructed with Tri-Radial Panel Layout
Tri-Radial 135% Roller Furler Genoa
Price: $ 4186, Show 19: $3767.00

Break out another thousand, over and over and over...

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On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 8:41 AM, LeoV said:

If your after a cheap sail, and do not care who builds them, order away.
If your mast is not bendy but a straight stick then even a mainsail is easy to measure. If you have a bendy mast you will spend hours defining prebend. And that will show when using the sail. Getting this right costs money in manufacturing and more time behind computer.

 

If you want bargain sails for cruising, or to tool around in PHRF, then whatever you get is fine.  It's really hard to be competitive in one design sailing, or at the front of the PHRF fleet, with anything other than really good quality sails. As LeoV points out, that comes at a price, because it's hard to get a main right on a modern high performance bendy stick, and for that matter, it's hard to integrate the headsails with the main.  Throw in a hundred other considerations, and a bespoke sail from a loft that knows what it is doing seems like a reasonable choice.  And yes, not all local lofts are great.  The good ones are great for a lot of reasons, including design and warranty coverage but also prompt local service mid-regatta, and because their service is so important to a competitive program, they are worth supporting. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

I don’t think I have ever seen a furler that high off the deck... The entire sail is above the lifelines

Yeah. It’s high.  The turnbuckle is oversized and the Alado furler drum sits on top of the turn buckle.  I bought the boat this way and intend to change it.     It is very nice to be able to see to leeward though.  

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Mack gave us this quote.  No idea how this compares to the other sails.

Jib/Genoa Miter Cut 135% W/Cover&Foam:

6.77 oz Challenge Marblehead Premium Dacron with Sunbrella cover and luff foam

2,840.78

Discount:

10 %

( 284.08 )

 

Total: 

$2,556.70

The same sail in Warp Drive radial Dacron is $3144 and I would not recommend it over the miter cut genoa I quoted.

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36 minutes ago, Jules said:

Mack gave us this quote.  No idea how this compares to the other sails.

Jib/Genoa Miter Cut 135% W/Cover&Foam:

6.77 oz Challenge Marblehead Premium Dacron with Sunbrella cover and luff foam

2,840.78

Discount:

10 %

( 284.08 )

 

Total: 

$2,556.70

The same sail in Warp Drive radial Dacron is $3144 and I would not recommend it over the miter cut genoa I quoted.

I would counter with a 30 pct discount 

 

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1 hour ago, Jules said:

Mack gave us this quote.  No idea how this compares to the other sails.

Jib/Genoa Miter Cut 135% W/Cover&Foam:

6.77 oz Challenge Marblehead Premium Dacron with Sunbrella cover and luff foam

2,840.78

Discount:

10 %

( 284.08 )

 

Total: 

$2,556.70

The same sail in Warp Drive radial Dacron is $3144 and I would not recommend it over the miter cut genoa I quoted.

Mack's sails are primarily targeted towards the cruising crowd.  For an independent based in Stuart FL they've got pretty good coverage throughout the US and Canadian east coast, their products are generally well-constructed, and tthe Mack Pack cover in particular is pretty sweet.

Having said that, I don't share their infatuation with miter cut genoas.  Like they say in their promo materials ( http://macksails.com/sails/), the design grew out of need for stretch control due to less sophisticated sailcloths available at the time.  I'm not convinced there's any benefit nowadays, and in fact a miter cut may hinder the sailcloth's performance since woven cloths are built with fill and warp yarns determined to maximize the cloth's performance in crosscut (horizontal seams) or radial (fan shaped panels extending outwards from the sail corners).  The Marblehead cloth Mack recommend is a premium cloth for crosscut construction, but wouldn't be my selection for a miter cut sails with half the panels oriented vertically.

Mack's radial drive quote sounds fair - any idea which weight Warp Drive cloth they've chosen?

And Cristoforo can go pound salt with his 30% off recommendation.  Why do so many sailors think it's appropriate to drive down pricing for sails beyond quoted discounts?  Not many folks are getting rich as sailmakers, let your local loft make some money so they're still in business to serve you next year...

Cheers!

 

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43 minutes ago, CriticalPath said:

Mack's sails are primarily targeted towards the cruising crowd.  For an independent based in Stuart FL they've got pretty good coverage throughout the US and Canadian east coast, their products are generally well-constructed, and tthe Mack Pack cover in particular is pretty sweet.

Having said that, I don't share their infatuation with miter cut genoas.  Like they say in their promo materials ( http://macksails.com/sails/), the design grew out of need for stretch control due to less sophisticated sailcloths available at the time.  I'm not convinced there's any benefit nowadays, and in fact a miter cut may hinder the sailcloth's performance since woven cloths are built with fill and warp yarns determined to maximize the cloth's performance in crosscut (horizontal seams) or radial (fan shaped panels extending outwards from the sail corners).  The Marblehead cloth Mack recommend is a premium cloth for crosscut construction, but wouldn't be my selection for a miter cut sails with half the panels oriented vertically.

Mack's radial drive quote sounds fair - any idea which weight Warp Drive cloth they've chosen?

And Cristoforo can go pound salt with his 30% off recommendation.  Why do so many sailors think it's appropriate to drive down pricing for sails beyond quoted discounts?  Not many folks are getting rich as sailmakers, let your local loft make some money so they're still in business to serve you next year...

Cheers!

 

Thanks for the information.  I know practically nothing about sail cloths, but I'm starting to learn.

Mack's quote didn't include any more information that what I provided.  But I was curious why they said would not recommend the Warp Drive radial over the miter cut genoa.

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On 12/9/2019 at 11:42 PM, Zonker said:

Supercruise is no bueno for shape holding. It's designed to last long time as a white triangle. It's a medium quality to budget cloth.

https://www.contendersailcloth.com/product/supercruise-us/

Clearly their sail spec charts are written by marketing. Classic, if a number is above mid point on a ten point scale it must be at least OK. But they don’t have a ten point scale they really have a 4.5 point scale with their lowest rating being 5.5 and highest a 10. So a rating of six is near the bottom (or presumably shit) not above average.

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On 11/27/2019 at 11:16 AM, JustNuts said:

The notion that local lofts provide 'service' is bunk.  Many of the guys who run them can barely find their own ass, let alone run a business t(hat should be ) focused on service.

It's not "bunk." You just have shitty, local lofts.

Force 10 Sails in Easton, Maryland comes to your boat, measures your rig, helps you build the sail that best fits your use-case, will help you bend it on, go sailing, and if it's fucked up, they'll fix it.  They make all their own shit, no outsourcing over-seas.  They invited me to the loft to watch them sew it all together (which I did).

My buddy who owns a sister ship, contracted a different "local loft" to build his mainsail. They outsource.  Sail numbers forgotten, Dutchman system forgotten, the sail was improperly made, and had a huge belly.  This "local loft" basically told him to pound sand after they grudgingly installed the Dutchman system.  He took the main to Force 10 where my guy took it apart and re-cut it for a pittance. Now it's 90% better. (There's no un-fucking a fucked up sail 100%).

I've had them make me a tri-radial genoa and mainsail. Force 10 is far cheaper than North and slightly less expensive than Quantum. They also make higher tech sails but I have no experience with that.

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10 hours ago, CriticalPath said:

Mack's sails are primarily targeted towards the cruising crowd.  For an independent based in Stuart FL they've got pretty good coverage throughout the US and Canadian east coast, their products are generally well-constructed, and tthe Mack Pack cover in particular is pretty sweet.

Having said that, I don't share their infatuation with miter cut genoas.  Like they say in their promo materials ( http://macksails.com/sails/), the design grew out of need for stretch control due to less sophisticated sailcloths available at the time.  I'm not convinced there's any benefit nowadays, and in fact a miter cut may hinder the sailcloth's performance since woven cloths are built with fill and warp yarns determined to maximize the cloth's performance in crosscut (horizontal seams) or radial (fan shaped panels extending outwards from the sail corners).  The Marblehead cloth Mack recommend is a premium cloth for crosscut construction, but wouldn't be my selection for a miter cut sails with half the panels oriented vertically.

Mack's radial drive quote sounds fair - any idea which weight Warp Drive cloth they've chosen?

And Cristoforo can go pound salt with his 30% off recommendation.  Why do so many sailors think it's appropriate to drive down pricing for sails beyond quoted discounts?  Not many folks are getting rich as sailmakers, let your local loft make some money so they're still in business to serve you next year...

Cheers!

 

Cross cut cloths are the right cloth for a mitre cut sail. It’s like building 2 joined cross cut sails.one addressing leech load the other foot loads.

you are right, it is not as critical with today’s more stable Dacron. When I first started sailmaking 40+ years ago, it was all mitre cut Genoa’s. 

Hell we still do the odd one if it suits the sail configuration better.

http://bullsails.blogspot.com/2016/04/back-to-70s-mitre-cut-sails.html

ps Mack Sails seem a pretty good operation.

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15 hours ago, OCS said:

Cross cut cloths are the right cloth for a mitre cut sail. It’s like building 2 joined cross cut sails.one addressing leech load the other foot loads.

you are right, it is not as critical with today’s more stable Dacron. When I first started sailmaking 40+ years ago, it was all mitre cut Genoa’s. 

Hell we still do the odd one if it suits the sail configuration better.

http://bullsails.blogspot.com/2016/04/back-to-70s-mitre-cut-sails.html

ps Mack Sails seem a pretty good operation.

I've never heard of leech and foot loads as justification for a sail construction technique before.

Perhaps*crosscut cloth is "the right cloth" for a mitre cut yankee sail in the style from your link, where the seams in the lower panels are diagonal.  Not necessarily because the cloth is designed and suitable for the application, but rather because it's the least bad choice...

image.png.4eabc6dd66105b60183f59a22e8dd209.png

 

But in Mack's genoa, the seams of the lower panels are nearly vertical i.e. the cloth is being used opposite to the design intentions of the warp and fill specifications, and also opposite to the intended loads of the tensioned loom construction engineered by the sailcloth manufacturer.

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Does anyone remember North's highly marketed but badly flawed "C-Cut" sails in the early 80s with all vertical panels contruction available in both woven and early laminated cloths?  The sails may've been fast outta the bag, but bagged out shortly thereafter.

 

Cheers!

 

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1 hour ago, CriticalPath said:

I've never heard of leech and foot loads as justification for a sail construction technique before.

Perhaps*crosscut cloth is "the right cloth" for a mitre cut yankee sail in the style from your link, where the seams in the lower panels are diagonal.  Not necessarily because the cloth is designed and suitable for the application, but rather because it's the least bad choice...

image.png.4eabc6dd66105b60183f59a22e8dd209.png

 

But in Mack's genoa, the seams of the lower panels are nearly vertical i.e. the cloth is being used opposite to the design intentions of the warp and fill specifications, and also opposite to the intended loads of the tensioned loom construction engineered by the sailcloth manufacturer.

image.png.6984a6d248f0fb741ac1d4d031fc5a1e.png

 

Does anyone remember North's highly marketed but badly flawed "C-Cut" sails in the early 80s with all vertical panels contruction available in both woven and early laminated cloths?  The sails may've been fast outta the bag, but bagged out shortly thereafter.

 

Cheers!

 

 

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On 11/27/2019 at 12:51 PM, nebe said:

Very happy with my 140% 

EC01D150-2053-4636-8220-7C1F59C90EAA.jpeg

Ever tried going upwind?  Any potato sack can perform reaching or downwind.  The proof of the pudding is how does a jib/genoa perform upwind.  BTW, you're sailing so deep a cruising gennaker would be a more appropriate sail.

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12 minutes ago, OCS said:

 

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OCS, I always understood that loads emanate from the pointy corner bits into the body of the sail (as illustrated by your diagram).  But you're saying loads come from the leech and foot (which is contrary to your diagram - I don't see any loads coming from the edge of the leech or foot).  I'm trying to understand your point, what am I missing?

Geronimo, this isn't about Mack (they make a fine product), it's about mitre cut genoas.  I just don't understand see any benefit besides the classic look when constructed with modern sail cloth.

Cheers!

 

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34 minutes ago, axolotl said:

Ever tried going upwind?  Any potato sack can perform reaching or downwind.  The proof of the pudding is how does a jib/genoa perform upwind.  BTW, you're sailing so deep a cruising gennaker would be a more appropriate sail.

No. Never. I only sail downwind in search of douchbags and it looks like I found one.  
 

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36 minutes ago, CriticalPath said:

OCS, I always understood that loads emanate from the pointy corner bits into the body of the sail (as illustrated by your diagram).  But you're saying loads come from the leech and foot (which is contrary to your diagram - I don't see any loads coming from the edge of the leech or foot).  I'm trying to understand your point, what am I missing?

Geronimo, this isn't about Mack (they make a fine product), it's about mitre cut genoas.  I just don't understand see any benefit besides the classic look when constructed with modern sail cloth.

Cheers!

 

My apologies for not being clearer, in a traditional woven fabric the cloth is engineered so the fill ( across the roll ) threads are stronger either in number or denier, as well as the being laid flat ( the warp threads along the roll are crimped around the fill threads). This is reversed in warp orientated cloth for radial construction and evened out both ways in balanced cloth. Balanced cloth is the norm now for low aspect sails rather than mitre cut. But a traditional fill orientated cloth suits a mitre cut sail as the load is aligned. 

The issue with mitre cut is that pesky joining seam which is on the bias angle! 

 

 

B1CD22B9-B56E-49EC-9DEF-3A3161C4CA7C.jpeg

 

http://www.sailingbreezes.com/Sailing_Breezes_Current/Articles/July04/PanelPt1.htm

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I'm surprised lofts are still offering sewn Dacron sails at discounted prices when membrane sail technology has matured and at the moderate price points are only a small premium (20-30%).  Agreed everybody got a bad taste concerning early membrane sails where the Mylar delaminated and the load bearing fiber was eaten by UV and flogging quite quickly.  The skipper I raced with bought an orange (expensive) PBO genoa in the '80's that didn't last one season, ouch.

It's 2020 folks and North is marketing 3Di NORDAC (Dacron) sails using the same composite molding technology that the exotic AC racing sails use with ridiculously expensive carbon filaments.  Sure it's double+ the cost of a sewn Dacron sail but may have 5 times the longevity long term concerning sail shape if cared for.  Do the math folks.  Or not; I've friends who are long term cruisers who point out they don't need the "racing" sail shape because they can accept losing a few tenths of knots under sail.  Well, when *beating upwind* sail shape is a make or break issue,  not a few tenths+- but is the actual ability to make progress to windward at a reasonable pace. Might matter on a lee shore.  They point out the iron genoa is an option;  one friend in particular has sailed south to Panama with shit sails and admits he was under power 75% of the time.  Might as well own an RV.

My point is the North NORDAC 3Di option, although expensive, really isn't long term and should be under consideration for any blue water voyager who likes to sail.

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16 minutes ago, axolotl said:

I'm surprised lofts are still offering sewn Dacron sails at discounted prices when membrane sail technology has matured and at the moderate price points are only a small premium (20-30%).  Agreed everybody got a bad taste concerning early membrane sails where the Mylar delaminated and the load bearing fiber was eaten by UV and flogging quite quickly.  The skipper I raced with bought an orange (expensive) PBO genoa in the '80's that didn't last one season, ouch.

It's 2020 folks and North is marketing 3Di NORDAC (Dacron) sails using the same composite molding technology that the exotic AC racing sails use with ridiculously expensive carbon filaments.  Sure it's double+ the cost of a sewn Dacron sail but may have 5 times the longevity long term concerning sail shape if cared for.  Do the math folks.  Or not; I've friends who are long term cruisers who point out they don't need the "racing" sail shape because they can accept losing a few tenths of knots under sail.  Well, when *beating upwind* sail shape is a make or break issue,  not a few tenths+- but is the actual ability to make progress to windward at a reasonable pace. Might matter on a lee shore.  They point out the iron genoa is an option;  one friend in particular has sailed south to Panama with shit sails and admits he was under power 75% of the time.  Might as well own an RV.

My point is the North NORDAC 3Di option, although expensive, really isn't long term and should be under consideration for any blue water voyager who likes to sail.

One design rules maybe? 

 

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1 hour ago, axolotl said:

Ever tried going upwind?  Any potato sack can perform reaching or downwind.  The proof of the pudding is how does a jib/genoa perform upwind.  BTW, you're sailing so deep a cruising gennaker would be a more appropriate sail.

 

28 minutes ago, nebe said:

No. Never. I only sail downwind in search of douchbags and it looks like I found one.  
 

Sad.  A sailboat that can only go downwind and one would assume powers upwind exclusively.  

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2 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

One design rules maybe? 

 

Oh yes.  Many One Design rules restrict sail construction materials and I was popped by that after buying a NORDAC 3DL Pentex  genoa.  Couldn't fly it under one design but it was effective in PHRF.

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20 minutes ago, axolotl said:

I'm surprised lofts are still offering sewn Dacron sails at discounted prices when membrane sail technology has matured and at the moderate price points are only a small premium (20-30%).  Agreed everybody got a bad taste concerning early membrane sails where the Mylar delaminated and the load bearing fiber was eaten by UV and flogging quite quickly.  The skipper I raced with bought an orange (expensive) PBO genoa in the '80's that didn't last one season, ouch.

It's 2020 folks and North is marketing 3Di NORDAC (Dacron) sails using the same composite molding technology that the exotic AC racing sails use with ridiculously expensive carbon filaments.  Sure it's double+ the cost of a sewn Dacron sail but may have 5 times the longevity long term concerning sail shape if cared for.  Do the math folks.  Or not; I've friends who are long term cruisers who point out they don't need the "racing" sail shape because they can accept losing a few tenths of knots under sail.  Well, when *beating upwind* sail shape is a make or break issue,  not a few tenths+- but is the actual ability to make progress to windward at a reasonable pace. Might matter on a lee shore.  They point out the iron genoa is an option;  one friend in particular has sailed south to Panama with shit sails and admits he was under power 75% of the time.  Might as well own an RV.

My point is the North NORDAC 3Di option, although expensive, really isn't long term and should be under consideration for any blue water voyager who likes to sail.

Or you can get a Hydranet panelled sail or Spectra Membrane with far superior fibres for cruising for less than a 3DI polyester sail.

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1 minute ago, OCS said:

Or you can get a Hydranet panelled sail or Spectra Membrane with far superior fibres for cruising for less than a 3DI polyester sail.

Yes there is competition  in the market but to me the North 3Di is superior concerning longevity.  One thing about the 3Di sails that I don't like is they're difficult to flake and store easily, and must be handled on deck with care.

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18 hours ago, axolotl said:

Ever tried going upwind?  Any potato sack can perform reaching or downwind. 

That's what prompted our search for a new head sail.  We've repeatedly exceeded 7 kn off wind with our original Ulmer headsail but sailing upwind takes forever.

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18 hours ago, OCS said:

My apologies for not being clearer, in a traditional woven fabric the cloth is engineered so the fill ( across the roll ) threads are stronger either in number or denier, as well as the being laid flat ( the warp threads along the roll are crimped around the fill threads). This is reversed in warp orientated cloth for radial construction and evened out both ways in balanced cloth. Balanced cloth is the norm now for low aspect sails rather than mitre cut. But a traditional fill orientated cloth suits a mitre cut sail as the load is aligned. 

The issue with mitre cut is that pesky joining seam which is on the bias angle!

B1CD22B9-B56E-49EC-9DEF-3A3161C4CA7C.jpeg

 

http://www.sailingbreezes.com/Sailing_Breezes_Current/Articles/July04/PanelPt1.htm

If you were to recommend a headsail for daysails and occasional coastal cruising, what would it be made of and how would it be constructed?

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19 hours ago, OCS said:

My apologies for not being clearer, in a traditional woven fabric the cloth is engineered so the fill ( across the roll ) threads are stronger either in number or denier, as well as the being laid flat ( the warp threads along the roll are crimped around the fill threads). This is reversed in warp orientated cloth for radial construction and evened out both ways in balanced cloth. Balanced cloth is the norm now for low aspect sails rather than mitre cut. But a traditional fill orientated cloth suits a mitre cut sail as the load is aligned. 

The issue with mitre cut is that pesky joining seam which is on the bias angle! 

 

 

B1CD22B9-B56E-49EC-9DEF-3A3161C4CA7C.jpeg

 

http://www.sailingbreezes.com/Sailing_Breezes_Current/Articles/July04/PanelPt1.htm

Thanks OCS, I understand sailcloth fabric engineering and construction.  I have read Maximum Sail Power too but do not understand the point in constructing a sail to meet leech and foot loads using cloths in a configuration where the leech and foot will have different stretch and stability characteristics, further complicated by that pesky mitre seam where everything meets along one convoluted line.  I imagine it must be quite a task to assemble such a sail cleanly and with proper tension with all those pieces of modern crisp sailcloth coming from different angles and positions!

No worries, carry on.

Cheers!

 

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1 hour ago, Jules said:

If you were to recommend a headsail for daysails and occasional coastal cruising, what would it be made of and how would it be constructed?

I'm not OCS but I'll chime it too...

For your needs, I like Mack's first quoted cloth but in a simple crosscut construction:  6.77oz Low Aspect Marblehead Weave (by Challenge Sailcloth) is an excellent choice for your use.  Triradial construction (or god forbid mitre cut!) are probably not worth the added expense (due to added labour and waste) for your needs.  Sunbrella UV cover's a no-brainer in Florida, but I wouldn't bother with a foam luff - others will disagree.

Sail construction will look sorta like this (plus Sunbrella along the leech and foot:

image.png.0b2633832f17738279bbedebfbaaeccf.png

 

Any North American sail loft should have access to Challenge's Marblehead cloth (except North who use their own proprietary woven cloths), so spec it out to a few and see what kind of responses you get.  The engagement and/or info you receive should help you make your decision on who to give the order.

Cheers!

 

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Just a thought have any of you American folks considered shopping for sails up here in Canada? there are a couple small lofts here near Toronto/ Hamilton that do nice work and your dollar is worth $1.34 in Canada. 

And anybody shopping right now for a dacron sail , get a fresh quote. The sail cloth (a commodity) is down in price as of last week and my quote for a new #3 , dacron with verticle battens so it will work on a furler went down $120. , yes thats peanuts, but they are my peanuts

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2 hours ago, Jules said:

If you were to recommend a headsail for daysails and occasional coastal cruising, what would it be made of and how would it be constructed?

Daysailing and coastal cruise- longevity, handling, reliability, reasonable performance and cost are probably the requirements.

cross cut Dacron of a mid to top end quality from Dimension, Contender, Challenge or Bainbridge would suffice, just avoid the real budget cloths that are hidden under misleading monikers like High Performance, Premium Plus or Supercruise.

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21 hours ago, crankcall said:

Just a thought have any of you American folks considered shopping for sails up here in Canada? there are a couple small lofts here near Toronto/ Hamilton that do nice work and your dollar is worth $1.34 in Canada. 

And anybody shopping right now for a dacron sail , get a fresh quote. The sail cloth (a commodity) is down in price as of last week and my quote for a new #3 , dacron with verticle battens so it will work on a furler went down $120. , yes thats peanuts, but they are my peanuts

Crank...what are those lofts names?

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1 hour ago, sail69 said:

Crank...what are those lofts names?

Bay Sails in Hamilton:  Used to be a Haarstick loft, owner Keven Piper is a great and creative sail designer, cloth selections are excellent,  and sail quality is very good.  I’m a satisfied customer.  Contact info at http://baysails.ca/ and more on their Facebook page.

Triton Sails in Port Credit:  Small independent that made some pretty nice sails long ago, IMO now turn out nice enough triangle shaped products that’re locally made for budget conscious cruisers.  Contact info at http://www.tritonsails.com/.

Cheers!


 

 

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CriticalPath beat me to it,  Triton loft makes sails for some of the boats in my fleet. Those boats often win however there is much more in play on those boats than the sail package. They may do well with potato sacks. The owner is a really nice guy if that makes a difference.

Bay Sails, Hamilton has been making sails for me for years, I'm quite happy. The owner / designer also does design work for other lofts so he 'gets it' . He has a couple world championships to his name and sails a bit on the carribean circuit so he knows what's current . 

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On 12/1/2019 at 3:59 PM, axolotl said:

Wow.  A promo vid that actually would make even a newb' sailor go elsewhere.  Truly awful.  Their website doesn't inspire confidence, here's an alleged pic of their highest end racing carbon main:

20130920_120708.thumb.jpg.d6c2700e0c97542b1b7b8703387dd6d7.jpg

Oh wait, that's a pic of their base model Dacron offering, viewable when you click on Racing Mains.

Nice wood pile cover

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God the spinnakers and mains they make suck, that Genoa is garbage. It’s amazing that in this day and age with the current technology that a company can make such poor examples of sails. The art form formally known as sailmaking has been lost by some companies. 

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These guys would really benefit from putting one good sailmaker on quality control / shop foreman style work. It would drastically increase the quality of product & not add a lot of cost. 

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