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How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?


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Some traditions are not worth perpetuating. They are best left to be forgotten along with the other embarrassing things we hope no one remembers.  

Most of the postings on this thread have a negative tone not out of enmity but a desire to protect you from yourself. (That and the bitterness of old age and experience) You’ve probably gotten as much

@born2sail.at  I think you have a good chance of "living your dream", especially if you allow your "dream" to evolve as you learn more. I think you have a good chance because you are reacting positive

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Maybe look into other people doing the exact same.. like https://cheersyachting.com/cheers-gulet/#prices

The prices seem absolutely outrageous IMHO, and that might be me not understanding the market, or the need for cash flow due high cost of operation... 3 nights with them could have me skiing for 3 weeks... And I still have to get to.turkey and back... 

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3 hours ago, Kaptajnen said:

The prices seem absolutely outrageous IMHO, and that might be me not understanding the market, or the need for cash flow due high cost of operation... 3 nights with them could have me skiing for 3 weeks... And I still have to get to.turkey and back...

What you mean with "outrageous"?  Most cabin charters I have found are around 1000€ per Person. 

I have searched trough running projects. charter, traditional vessels, big ships and cargo... If you have the ship filled for at least 4 months everything seems doable. 
But I do not know how difficult it is to find guest.  Especially because I don't want to offer more of the same. 

 

Here is the perfect boat. Not overly lavish , a proven design and its owner builder has experience in carrying ‘cargo’. That went so well for him he didn’t have to worry about making money for severe years. 

 

29571149-A81F-44F9-B53B-D71730D69880.jpeg


Can someone explain me what's so funny about that? 

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In the current issue of Wooden Boat, November/December, there is an article about two folks who built a modest sized sharpie for charter. Building the Huron Jewel. 
 

probably worth a read for the OP, although detailed financial particulars are not included. 
 

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2 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

What you mean with "outrageous"?  Most cabin charters I have found are around 1000€ per Person. 

 


Can someone explain me what's so funny about that? 

I find paying 1000-1600€ a night totally outrageous.. but I might be a poor cheap as idiot... 3 nights onboard in August would set me back 4800€ that's more than I spend on vacation a year... I could eat a michelin started restaurants for that money... I doubt the food onboard is that good...  It's ridiculously expensive in my world... That doesn't mean it's a bad idea.. but not sure you're attacking the issue the right way none the less...

 

 

The funny thing is explained in this video, it's explained in the end why it's funny for this scenario.. take a look:

 

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2 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

What you mean with "outrageous"?  Most cabin charters I have found are around 1000€ per Person. 

I have searched trough running projects. charter, traditional vessels, big ships and cargo... If you have the ship filled for at least 4 months everything seems doable. 
But I do not know how difficult it is to find guest.  Especially because I don't want to offer more of the same. 

 


Can someone explain me what's so funny about that? 

It's a very lonnnnnnng story.  Search the site for the 1,000 days at sea thread.  It is probably the finest train wreck this site has ever seen, and there have been many good ones here.  So settle in with a lot of Wiener schnitzel, other comestibles  and a few cases of a nice Austrian Riesling Spätlese (or a German one if you want real quality) and start reading.  We probably won't see you for a while.  I would highly recommend you view this introductory video to set the mood first.

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3 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

What you mean with "outrageous"?  Most cabin charters I have found are around 1000€ per Person. 

Per week. That Cheers Gulet is per night. How many people you know that can take a week long holiday and pay 10k for that?

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3 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

What you mean with "outrageous"?  Most cabin charters I have found are around 1000€ per Person. 

I have searched trough running projects. charter, traditional vessels, big ships and cargo... If you have the ship filled for at least 4 months everything seems doable. 
But I do not know how difficult it is to find guest.  Especially because I don't want to offer more of the same. 
...

"outrageous" is in the eye of the beholder when they compare that to alternative ways they could spend that money. For some €5,000 for a long weekend afloat with a moderate service level seems reasonable for others when they look at what else they could do with that money it seems outrageous.

 

The question for you is can you fill your boat with people who don’t find it outrageous. (Presumably those who find it outrageous won’t show up). So:

1.       Are there enough people who do not think it is outrageous relative to the number of people already offering that service for you to fill your boat with paying guests? The most important part of that is not – can you find a market in July and August....but can you find a market that will fill your boat two other months of the year – good luck with that.

2.       Can you offer a competing service – you don’t want to “offer the same” but will people want what you want to offer?

3.       Can you identify the people who will want what you offer and communicate it well enough to them that they choose to book with you?

Like @Kaptajnen I personally find the pricing outrageous but at half the price I’d still choose to bareboat or spend a two weeks skiing at La Grave. But you should not care about my opinion. You should care about market place facts.

See if you can find reliable occupancy rates for people offering a similar service to what you want to offer. You should also  develop your own fact base. Pick a few dozen charter vessels doing what you want to do and also offering on line bookings. Then over the next year on a weekly basis track how easy it is to book space with them for the next year. I think you will find you need to book way ahead for July and August and the shoulder season you may find you don’t have to. Anything still available a few weeks out you should assume ends up as unused, anything available a few months out you should assume is moved at a deep discount. Calibrate that based on industry interviews. Talk to skippers and deck hands offering services like you want to...

Also ask yourself what it takes to deliver the service you want to offer. For example the crew in the linked Gulet have 32 years combined experience – you probably don’t need that but you and your crew may have some experience and skill requirements in order to deliver a viable service offering.

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3 hours ago, Kaptajnen said:

I find paying 1000-1600€ a night totally outrageous.. but I might be a poor cheap as idiot... 3 nights onboard in August would set me back 4800€ that's more than I spend on vacation a year... I could eat a michelin started restaurants for that money... I doubt the food onboard is that good...  It's ridiculously expensive in my world... That doesn't mean it's a bad idea.. but not sure you're attacking the issue the right way none the less...

You are absolutely right! I missed the "a night" bit. I have calculated roughly at 1000 to 1500 per week or 10 to 15k a week. 

 

3 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

or a German one if you want real quality

Well that hurts! The germans have some decent beers but wine? Seriously? 

 

@KC375 This tread really helped me but now I am very much at the starting point again. I really have to think about what I want. Steel, aluminum, gfk. Traditional, modern or even a multihull. Three things I know: I do not want to work in the luxury business, I want to have a relatively big boat and I want to have some amount of freedom where I sail. I really have to think about it and come back when I know what I want. (I always calculated with 1000-1500€ per berth per week and 20% of the possible berths not booked.) 

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In the realm of pricing, take a look at Rubicon3 - they are doing mostly "sail training" and offshore/coastal voyages, with a much much lower level of service, on relatively inexpensive used fiberglass boats (Clipper 60s) but seem to be doing it very successfully - have grown to a fleet of something like 4 boats over the last 7 years, and are charging something in the range of 150-250 GBP / night / person.  They have some economies of scale on their overhead due to having an identical fleet and spreading marketing / admin costs over multiple boats.  

Also look at 59 North, Mahina Tiare, Pangaea Exploration, Pelagic - none of these are doing "luxury" charters, and prices are in the $300-$600/night/person range.  Maintenance costs can certainly be cheaper if you're not looking to be doing Ocean crossings / remote locations and just staying doing week long coastal booze cruises and the like.

A friend of our recently started a charter business doing weekend to week long live aboard charters in the US with 4-6 passengers and has found they need to be charging about $350/night/person in order for it to be financially viable, and one year in are still working second jobs because they haven't been able to book enough guests / year in order to pay themselves and pay for the boat.

 I think you'll find that if you want to pay yourself and your crew a salary and maintain the boat to code and well you'll probably need to be charging in this price range and filling the boat 120-180 nights a year.

One big "advantage" you do have as an owner-operator is passion and a potential willingness to do the work for the lifestyle, rather than for a salary, which can reduce your costs, but in the longer term isn't financially or mentally sustainable - you need to be able to get out of "startup" mode and actually earn a living while growing the business if you want to be able to either eventually upgrade to a bigger boat or do this for more than a few years.

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32 minutes ago, hdra said:

A friend of our recently started a charter business doing weekend to week long live aboard charters in the US with 4-6 passengers and has found they need to be charging about $350/night/person in order for it to be financially viable, and one year in are still working second jobs because they're still working on growing their customer base and can't fill the boat enough nights a year. I think you'll find that if you want to pay yourself and your crew a salary and maintain the boat to code and well you'll probably need to be charging in this price range and filling the boat 120-180 nights a year.

I maybe see a few problems here and please correct me if I am wrong. 4-6 passengers sounds like a 40-45 Foot boat with three cabins. In that range a lot of people just charter a boat without a skipper. With 4 persons the cost for the skipper is relatively high. No option for more service then the skipper (professional chef, fitness trainer, tour guide. It all depends on the skipper. The competition on this market is high in every aspect. When I search for boats on the used market it seems that boats in the 60-70 Feet range costs almost the same than the 40s and 50s. I think that's because no one want to maintain a big boat just for holiday and weekends. 

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2 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

...

@KC375 This tread really helped me but now I am very much at the starting point again. I really have to think about what I want. Steel, aluminum, gfk. Traditional, modern or even a multihull. Three things I know: I do not want to work in the luxury business, I want to have a relatively big boat and I want to have some amount of freedom where I sail. I really have to think about it and come back when I know what I want. (I always calculated with 1000-1500€ per berth per week and 20% of the possible berths not booked.) 

@born2sail.at  I think you have a good chance of "living your dream", especially if you allow your "dream" to evolve as you learn more. I think you have a good chance because you are reacting positively to constructive feedback and showing flexibility in your ideas.

I'll offer a bit more advice/experience. I used to work for a well known management consulting firm and then later was involved in due diligence on a number of business acquisitions as well as new ventures/market entries. One of the things I learned is people will generally answer your questions. I'm amazed at the number of senior business leaders who told me their core business secrets just cause I called up and asked.

So my advice is to turn this project of yours into a proper programme and pursue it with diligence. You might start with a learning plan. What are the things you need to know to move forward or that are core assumptions you've made and identify how you could learn or test assumptions. For example core to your plan is wanting to spend prolonged periods on a boat. We know you sail small boats and are comfortable with a nomadic life style - so you would likely be fine with or even enjoy extended time aboard a boat. However if you have not done any extended time living aboard and longer passages...you might want to try that out before writing a cheque on a big boat.

Part of your learning programme should be a cash flow model for your project (likely in Excel but other programmes would work). A detailed economic model that you can use to run scenarios is really helpful in identifying the few things you really need to focus on. For example price vs occupancy rate. In my experience managers often over emphasis cost cutting or price cutting to grow volume...often it is much better to reduce utilization/occupancy in exchange for price/margin increases.

So with your learning agenda and economic model in hand start calling around anyone you can think of who might help you progress your learning agenda. Develop an interview guide before you dial that includes a 10 second summary of what you are doing, why the person on the other end of the phone is so well equipped to help, and the key questions. As part of the call ask how else you can learn more - source material and ideally intros to others you can call. After each call ( or at the very leas all the ones that were neutral to positive) send a thank you note or email, ideally summarizing what you learned and what you hope to learn next. Call everyone vaguely associated with what you want to do (charter brokers, travel agents, skippers, crew, customers, travel writers, bankers, insurance agents, lawyers, accountants...)

Every few months send a summary email to all your previous info sources - what have you learned what are you trying to learn next. Occasionally send a memento or interesting gift - it's not about the money but showing you paid attention to the individual person. For example if you come across a cool new soft shackle at a boat show or riggers shop...who did you speak to in the last year that would be tickled to get one. A $5 remember me I remember you gift can win you invaluable support.  In the process of this you will learn a lot, you will develop a deep industry network and almost certainly you will get some offers to come try it out using someone else’s money and boat.

Once you are sure what you want to do and have a good economic model/business plan/budget you will be well positioned to move forward - you may even have created people ready to work with you in sourcing/providing boat, leads on opportunities, marketing capability, financing etc....all because you approached this methodically, made some polite phone calls, followed up showing appreciation.

All the best in your adventures.

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2 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

Well that hurts! The germans have some decent beers but wine? Seriously? 

Yeah, I figured that might get  a reaction. :)  Just teasing you. Mostly anyway, the Germans do make some pretty good Riesling in my opinion but I prefer Bordeaux and Burgundies nowadays.

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Two and a half million US$ is a pretty good guess here. Seahorse Marine has a boat for sale that appears to be part of a deal that fell through. 

https://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&id=2860637&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=seahorsemarine&&ywo=seahorsemarine&

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15 minutes ago, spankoka said:

Two and a half million US$ is a pretty good guess here. Seahorse Marine has a boat for sale that appears to be part of a deal that fell through. 

I think the Diesel Ducks are quite expensive. The Puffins (Not a common make, I know) are sold at around 1 million. 

Maybe someone here knows what commercial vessels like fishing trawlers in the 20-10 meter range cost. 

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On 11/30/2019 at 11:35 AM, born2sail.at said:

I am thinking about what I want to do after my racing career and I still want to make a living with sailing. My idea is to own and sail a charter vessel and work my way up to a "real" traditional vessel in the 40 to 50 Meter range. I am still very much in the idea finding process so please don't keelhaul me. 

Specs: 
- 24 Meters LOA (78 Feet) because you can commercially use it with a Yachtmaster Offshore with the commercial endorsement. (Then collecting the miles to the Master 200GT or Master 500GT for the big vessel) 
- Hull Length about 18 or 19 Meters and a bowsprit.
- Steel Hull 
- Traditional gaff rig with two wooden masts
- A big sailplane which you see on older working boats including running backstays, two or three jibs, topsails, fisherman etc. 
- Pilothouse with inside steering only
- A generator and aircon 
- 10 to 12 guest berths in 5 cabins 
- Space for about 25 day guests
- A big owners living space aft and mostly separated from the guest area. 
- Minimum crew 2 (My girlfriend and me) 
- The type of vessel should look like a big Fisher 47. Traditional fishing vessel often used in the north sea. From the idea something like that but steel not wood: https://www.breum.co.nz/index.htm
- Option to sail 10 to 15 tons of cargo

From the specs you can see that it is not easy to find something like that on the used market. I have roughly calculated the costs and they add up to 250 to 300k €. 

Hull 80k, Rig 20k, Sails 15k, Electronics 15k, Engine (maybe used) 15k, Generator 10k, Airconditioning 5k, Interior 20k, Safety gear 15k, Paint 10k, small parts 20k, design 10k, place on land for one year 10k, Galley 20k 

To clarify, I do not want a luxury sailing yacht neither an uncomfortable workboat. Just something in between. We both could work full time to build the interior and the rig. 

What are your thoughts? Is it realistic or is there a better way I could not see? 

Thanks for reading my flight of fantasy and hope you have some thoughts to help me. 

Have I got a boat for you!  Seriously:
https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/boa/d/vancouver-staysail-schooner-sailboat/7012483441.html

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On 11/30/2019 at 9:30 PM, KC375 said:

Let me suggest you start by testing your most fundamental assumption...

“there is a market”...

Especially the part about “cargo”.

Create a real business plan. Find the closest match in a used vessel and use that as your acquisition cost (plus investment cost for refit)...it certainly won’t be more expensive than new so will do fine as a place marker in your business plan.

Get real world facts not just wild speculation.

Generally maritime commerce is about as full on free market as it gets. It is true that the Jones Act provides some protection to US ships trading with in US waters but even so – if sail cargo is a viable business where are all the sail cargo vessels...check out Vermont Sail Project for a story of hard work and heart break - so profitable that despite volunteers and donations they were put out of business by one year's insurance premiums. Look at all the other Sail Cargo projects – that are so profitable they depend on indigogo / go fund me / charity / “investors” etc to try to make ends meet. You have examples like River Sea - who have an indigogo campaing to cover their port costs...not the sign of a vibrant business. Check out Grayhound Lugger - it looks like they might have something going, people pay to be crew on their cargo runs. Maybe if you can turn crew into a negative costs it might work.

Then of course you have the  fantasists like like Sail Cargo who are raising money to build their ship. I can only assume investor protection laws in Costa Rica are not very robust. Their business plan is claiming they will generate “shareholder earnings” of 54% of gross income – at least 3 times better than Maersk – in an industry with significant advantages to scale. I’m guessing that if sail cargo were offering that investment to US investors in the US that the SEC might offer them an opportunity to bunk in with Bernie Madoff.

Save yourself some real pain and do some serious business due dilligence before you get into deep water.

or this (sailing) cargo boat/business for sale  http://svkwai.com/

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15 minutes ago, bosundog said:

or this (sailing) cargo boat/business for sale  http://svkwai.com/

@born2sail.at This idea from @bosundog is exactly the sort of situation that would allow you to learn more. Don't misrepresent yourself or oversell your self - be transparent about your long run interest but that you are early in your learning / planning process. I don't know the nature of the sale process or the circumstances of the owners. What's a phone call cost? (but do your prep first so you don't come across as a waste of time)

In the ideal world the business is break even or marginally profitable and the owner is looking to retire but not in a huge hurry and would like the business to survive...

Under circumstances like that you might be able to cut a deal were you crew for a year and then set up a structured purchase that sees you take ownership say 10% a year for 10 years in exchange for a down payment and y% of annual revenue...

Even if there is no deal to be done you might learn a huge amount from the conversation.

Good luck

 

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43 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

The cost of getting it to Europe alone (I don't think the canal transit cost for a 90'er is cheap; or hey, just go 'round the cape, what better way to shakedown a shaky boat) is considerable.  That and the cost of the almost total interior refit, the possibility of bringing it up to Euro specs, and other factors will drive that price up to much more than it's worth is my guess, as it already looks overpriced even in Canadian pesos.  That survey value is pretty funny, maybe he meant 1.2 million Canadian pennies.  "Original plans called for a center board drop keel but it was found the boat didn't require it", that's interesting.  Plus it's quite old and kind of ugly.  He could buy something similar in Europe and save a lot of transport hassles.  Junk boats are a dime a dozen just about anywhere.

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23 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

The cost of getting it to Europe alone (I don't think the canal transit cost for a 90'er is cheap; or hey, just go 'round the cape, what better way to shakedown a shaky boat) is considerable.  That and the cost of the almost total interior refit, the possibility of bringing it up to Euro specs, and other factors will drive that price up to much more than it's worth is my guess, as it already looks overpriced even in Canadian pesos.  That survey value is pretty funny, maybe he meant 1.2 million Canadian pennies.  "Original plans called for a center board drop keel but it was found the boat didn't require it", that's interesting.  Plus it's quite old and kind of ugly.  He could buy something similar in Europe and save a lot of transport hassles.  Junk boats are a dime a dozen just about anywhere.

I’ve no skin in the game, mate  —the crusty old boat isn’t mine, so save your criticism for someone else :-)  :-) .  I never said it was ideal or even reasonable —just happened to come across it the other day, and as long as there are dreamers out there with stars in their eyes (like the guy who bought and is now selling this), might as well chuck it out there...I think he should offer $30k tops, and go for it...what could go wrong...

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3 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I’ve no skin on the game —the crusty old boat that isn’t mine, so save your criticism for someone else :-)  :-) .  I never said it was ideal or even reasonable —just happened to come across it the other day, and as long as there are dreamers out there with stars in their eyes (like the guy who bought and is now selling this), might as well chuck it out there...I think he should offer $30k tops, and go for it..

Not criticizing, only giving my opinion.  

 But you did say in your original post:

1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Have I got a boat for you!  Seriously:

If it weren't for that last word, I would have probably kept my mouth shut.  ;)

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1 hour ago, bosundog said:

or this (sailing) cargo boat/business for sale  http://svkwai.com/

Actually I like the design of the kwai. Something like that but not 24 Meters not 43 I had in mind when I started this tread. I think it is not a good idea to start with a tall ship. I mentioned cargo, but I was thinking about 1 or 2 tons of olive oil or tea when the ship is not used for chartering. Selling it as a rarity to some local shop or at a harbor festival. Even when I think about a tall ship I can't tell if I am more interested in offering voyages for guests or in sailing cargo.

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3 minutes ago, born2sail.at said:

Actually I like the design of the kwai. Something like that but not 24 Meters not 43 I had in mind when I started this tread. I think it is not a good idea to start with a tall ship. I mentioned cargo, but I was thinking about 1 or 2 tons of olive oil or tea when the ship is not used for chartering. Selling it as a rarity to some local shop or at a harbor festival. Even when I think about a tall ship I can't tell if I am more interested in offering voyages for guests or in sailing cargo.

Check out these folks.  Not quite what you want to do as they are building a boat, but there are some similarities and it's a very cool project.

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14 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

Not criticizing, only giving my opinion.  

 But you did say in your original post:

If it weren't for that la st word, I would have probably kept my mouth shut.  ;)

I was hedging my bets between the two opposing meanings of the word “seriously” :-) :-)

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21 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Yeah, I figured that might get  a reaction. :)  Just teasing you. Mostly anyway, the Germans do make some pretty good Riesling in my opinion but I prefer Bordeaux and Burgundies nowadays.

You haven’t lived until you’ve got drunk on German trocken Riesling. In Austria, rather try Grüner Veltliner or Styrian (?) Welschriesling. German (and Austrian) red is rather light and somewhat watery  compared to the French stuff. 

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8 minutes ago, 10thTonner said:

You haven’t lived until you’ve got drunk on German trocken Riesling. In Austria, rather try Grüner Veltliner or Styrian (?) Welschriesling. German (and Austrian) red is rather light and somewhat watery  compared to the French stuff. 

I do prefer French wine, Bordeaux and Burgundy in particular, I have a bit of experience with them.  When it comes to German Rieslings, although I prefer dry wines of any color, because of the high acid in the Riesling, I like an auslese, I like that hint of sweetness balanced by the acid.  I first learned about the magic of a good Riesling when I was a young soldier in Nürnberg in the mid 70s.  I might have over indulged on occasion.  A good friend of mine knew a lot about Riesling and taught me a lot.  A really good Sauternes from France is another of the few white wines I'll drink, a little bit goes a long way, but they are wonderful.  Chateaux Rieussec is about half the price of the iconic Chateaux d'Yquem.  Again, it's about the acid/sugar balance.  I have  had a few Grüner Veltliners, they were OK.  I have hardly ever had a German red that was worth drinking, maybe a Spätburgunder, but even a good one pales in comparison to a decent Burgundy in my opinion.  A winery back home in Pennsylvania, that I worked at years ago, makes a surprisingly good Dornfelder.

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2 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

I do prefer French wine, Bordeaux and Burgundy in particular, 

:)

3 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

A really good Sauternes from France is another of the few white wines I'll drink, a little bit goes a long way, but they are wonderful.  Chateaux Rieussec is about half the price of the iconic Chateaux d'Yquem.  Again, it's about the acid/sugar balance.  

Thack you!                     :)

4 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

 A winery back home in Pennsylvania, that I worked at years ago, makes a surprisingly good Dornfelder.

Thack you Mr.ED !!                     :)

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Just now, Snaggletooth said:

:)

Thack you!                     :)

Thack you Mr.ED !!                     :)

Prosze bardzo.  (you're most welcome)

I never thought I would ever use the word good in the same sentence as  Dornfelder!  ;)

We need to share a nice bottle or 2 someday!

I get the impression you live near NYC.  I wish I would have thought about it in 2015 when I came to the US with my German friend. We brought 2 bottles of Cheval Blanc, 2 of Mouton Rothschild and a Latour, all from the early '80s, '82 and '83 IIRC.  Not the best years but with wines like that they are either really good or really great.  We met with a wine guy near Columbia U, and had a very, very nice dinner.  I think you would have liked it. 

 It was funny going through customs in Newark, my friend and I had split up the bottles.  I declared them on the customs form just to be safe and avoid problems. The customs agent took a look, and said "Oh, booze, wine? No problem." and he waved me through.  I don't think they really care about the cost, just the quantity. :)

Here Snags, just for you because I like you.  A Cheval Blanc horizontal to remember.  I'll never forget it!

 

 

CBrs.jpg

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On 12/4/2019 at 9:20 AM, born2sail.at said:

I maybe see a few problems here and please correct me if I am wrong. 4-6 passengers sounds like a 40-45 Foot boat with three cabins. In that range a lot of people just charter a boat without a skipper. With 4 persons the cost for the skipper is relatively high. No option for more service then the skipper (professional chef, fitness trainer, tour guide. It all depends on the skipper. The competition on this market is high in every aspect. When I search for boats on the used market it seems that boats in the 60-70 Feet range costs almost the same than the 40s and 50s. I think that's because no one want to maintain a big boat just for holiday and weekends. 

You are correct that they are running a 45' boat.  That being said, the maintenance and expense of ownership does not scale linearly - be aware that even if you can buy a 60-70' boat cheaply and then have more bunks available to sell, your operating expenses will be a lot higher than on a 45' boat, so you may not be able to get your per person costs any lower.

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42 minutes ago, hdra said:

That being said, the maintenance and expense of ownership does not scale linearly

You mean that the cost to maintain an 80' ship is more expensive than double the cost of a 40' boat? I understand that you need more paint, more sail etc. But usually you can buy bigger cans... 

Many people told me that a big boat is very expensive, but every time I looked prices up in the internet I thought that's not so bad for a boat where I want to live the whole year round. Of course it's a different story if you have your boat in the marina and use it only three weeks a year.  

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50 minutes ago, born2sail.at said:

You mean that the cost to maintain an 80' ship is more expensive than double the cost of a 40' boat? I understand that you need more paint, more sail etc. But usually you can buy bigger cans... 

Many people told me that a big boat is very expensive, but every time I looked prices up in the internet I thought that's not so bad for a boat where I want to live the whole year round. Of course it's a different story if you have your boat in the marina and use it only three weeks a year.  

The costs go up relative to displacement more than to length.

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1 hour ago, born2sail.at said:

You mean that the cost to maintain an 80' ship is more expensive than double the cost of a 40' boat? I understand that you need more paint, more sail etc. But usually you can buy bigger cans... 

Many people told me that a big boat is very expensive, but every time I looked prices up in the internet I thought that's not so bad for a boat where I want to live the whole year round. Of course it's a different story if you have your boat in the marina and use it only three weeks a year.  

 

50 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

The costs go up relative to displacement more than to length.

Roughly speaking a boat gets “bigger” (volume) as function of a cube of the length so a boat that is twice as long is 8 times as big. An 80 footer will need much more paint than twice a 40 footer – longer, deeper and wider.

I’d always thought of cost going up as a cube of length but it makes sense that a lot of costs would go up with displacement as Ish suggests. (sort of another measure for volume so you would expect displacement to go up as  a cube.) so I looked at the ratio displacement to length for two lines of boats of the same style but differing in length (Niagaras and Nonsuchs – Hinterhoeller designs) and found displacement goes up somewhere between a cube of the length and a square of the length.

In any case costs go up as an exponential of the increase in length

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2 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

You mean that the cost to maintain an 80' ship is more expensive than double the cost of a 40' boat? I understand that you need more paint, more sail etc. But usually you can buy bigger cans... 

Many people told me that a big boat is very expensive, but every time I looked prices up in the internet I thought that's not so bad for a boat where I want to live the whole year round. Of course it's a different story if you have your boat in the marina and use it only three weeks a year.  

I think you would benefit from reading Cy Hamlin's book I mentioned previously in another thread. Preliminary Design of Boats and Ships.

20191205_223158~2.jpg

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8 hours ago, fastyacht said:

I think you would benefit from reading Cy Hamlin's book I mentioned previously in another thread. Preliminary Design of Boats and Ships.

20191205_223158~2.jpg

And alwasy good to re-read Frank Bethwaite

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3 minutes ago, KC375 said:

And alwasy good to re-read Frank Bethwaite

Yes for sure.

Cy wrote the book for owners not just for would be yacht designers. He covers economics in a whole chapter.

Cy was especially skilled in designing to meet the systems approach rather than shoehorning. Of course in addition to designing the Hudson River sloop CLEARWATER he also designed fishing boats for the Maldives. Some UN program had delivered big steel trawlers which could not be maintained nor operated efficiently. Cy adapted their traditional sailing craft to readily available power. Much better solution. In other words he listened to his customers.

 

As a prospective new business you need to minimize economic surprises. To that extent I think the o.p. can benefit.

 

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Yes for sure.

Cy wrote the book for owners not just for would be yacht designers. He covers economics in a whole chapter.

Cy was especially skilled in designing to meet the systems approach rather than shoehorning. Of course in addition to designing the Hudson River sloop CLEARWATER he also designed fishing boats for the Maldives. Some UN program had delivered big steel trawlers which could not be maintained nor operated efficiently. Cy adapted their traditional sailing craft to readily available power. Much better solution. In other words he listened to his customers.

 

As a prospective new business you need to minimize economic surprises. To that extent I think the o.p. can benefit.

 

No doubt there are many excellent books on yacht design out there.  

I am a big fan of Bob Perry's 'design spiral', as he calls it.

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14 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

No doubt there are many excellent books on yacht design out there.  

I am a big fan of Bob Perry's 'design spiral', as he calls it.

Design spiral is the standard forever at Webb uMich etc.

The value of Cy's book is that it is not another "yacht design" book.

Here is the design spiral in Cy's own hand:

20191206_090952~2.jpg

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32 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Design spiral is the standard forever at Webb uMich etc.

The value of Cy's book is that it is not another "yacht design" book.

Here is the design spiral in Cy's own hand:

 

Yes, I know that Bob didn't invent the concept but he certainly takes good advantage of it.  As is Eva Dent.

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3 hours ago, LeoV said:

Thank you for that paper. The thesis is essentially:

" It ought to be replaced by a systems analysis based, concurrent engineering, team work oriented paradigm.

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7 hours ago, LB 15 said:

3ip6yt.jpg

Hey, I ner get memed before :-) 
 

On 12/6/2019 at 2:38 AM, KC375 said:

In any case costs go up as an exponential of the increase in length

I want to stay on this topic a little bit longer. When I look at the used market it seems that bigger boats are harder to sell and so the price level is relatively low. I think it is possible to get a good 65' boat in the same price range than a 45'. The big unknown quantity are the annual maintaining costs. 
 

I stay with the pain: I found prices and calculations about the product "coppercoat". https://www.fleiss-yachtzubehoer.de/pages/coppercoat/ergiebigkeit.php
The say for a 65' sailboat you will need 22 liters of their product = 2500€ 
And you need some helping hands to get it applied + sandpaper etc to get the old antifouling off. Lets say a total of 7000€
They say it lasts for 10 years but I am pessimistic and calculate with 5 years. So I have 1400€ a year for paint. That would be ok for me. 

Sails are a double edged thing. I don't like furling sails and on a bigger boat you have the space to stow the not used ones. Also some say that sails on carts and stays lasts longer and you can replace them one by one. The same with the standing rigging, on a ketch you have more masts and more starting rigging. But the single masts are not as high and you don't need as much rig tension. So I guess the rig is not as sensitive and you don't need to replace the standing and running rigging as often. 
Standing rigging: 20 000€ every 15 years or 1300€ a year. 
Sails: 3000 a year. (One by one)

Some things like the engine are a little bit bigger but usually more serviceable and the parts lasts longer. 
Last thing are systems you don't have on a smaller boat like hydraulic steering but what else? 

 A place in an marina is more expensive but with a bigger boat I would be more independent and could anchor more. (Similar situation with multihulls. Too expensive as a weekend boat but good to life on.) 

I often find the 10% rule for maintaining costs. But 10% of the value or of the price of the new boat? I can't imagine that a lot of people crossing around the world spend 80-100k a year on maintaining? Could I get away with 10-15k a year? 
 

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1 hour ago, born2sail.at said:

Hey, I ner get memed before :-) 
 

I want to stay on this topic a little bit longer. When I look at the used market it seems that bigger boats are harder to sell and so the price level is relatively low. I think it is possible to get a good 65' boat in the same price range than a 45'. The big unknown quantity are the annual maintaining costs. 
 

I stay with the pain: I found prices and calculations about the product "coppercoat". https://www.fleiss-yachtzubehoer.de/pages/coppercoat/ergiebigkeit.php
The say for a 65' sailboat you will need 22 liters of their product = 2500€ 
And you need some helping hands to get it applied + sandpaper etc to get the old antifouling off. Lets say a total of 7000€
They say it lasts for 10 years but I am pessimistic and calculate with 5 years. So I have 1400€ a year for paint. That would be ok for me. 

Sails are a double edged thing. I don't like furling sails and on a bigger boat you have the space to stow the not used ones. Also some say that sails on carts and stays lasts longer and you can replace them one by one. The same with the standing rigging, on a ketch you have more masts and more starting rigging. But the single masts are not as high and you don't need as much rig tension. So I guess the rig is not as sensitive and you don't need to replace the standing and running rigging as often. 
Standing rigging: 20 000€ every 15 years or 1300€ a year. 
Sails: 3000 a year. (One by one)

Some things like the engine are a little bit bigger but usually more serviceable and the parts lasts longer. 
Last thing are systems you don't have on a smaller boat like hydraulic steering but what else? 

 A place in an marina is more expensive but with a bigger boat I would be more independent and could anchor more. (Similar situation with multihulls. Too expensive as a weekend boat but good to life on.) 

I often find the 10% rule for maintaining costs. But 10% of the value or of the price of the new boat? I can't imagine that a lot of people crossing around the world spend 80-100k a year on maintaining? Could I get away with 10-15k a year? 
 

30 years ago, racing a 40 footer as an amateur around the buoys and cruising it actively on the East Coast near NY was $15,000 per year.

I think you are massively underestimating your expenses.

"All the other stuff" adds up. You've only laid out sails, paint, and avoided quantifying powering. You have dodged mooring costs (you cannot anchor everywhere and anchors are not anywhere near as secure as a mooring. You must have an anchor watch when anchored...)

 

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On 12/6/2019 at 4:34 AM, fastyacht said:

I think you would benefit from reading Cy Hamlin's book I mentioned previously in another thread. Preliminary Design of Boats and Ships.

20191205_223158~2.jpg

high performance sailing is on my bookshelf too!

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4 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

Hey, I ner get memed before :-) 
 

I want to stay on this topic a little bit longer. When I look at the used market it seems that bigger boats are harder to sell and so the price level is relatively low. I think it is possible to get a good 65' boat in the same price range than a 45'. The big unknown quantity are the annual maintaining costs. 
 

I stay with the pain: I found prices and calculations about the product "coppercoat". https://www.fleiss-yachtzubehoer.de/pages/coppercoat/ergiebigkeit.php
The say for a 65' sailboat you will need 22 liters of their product = 2500€ 
And you need some helping hands to get it applied + sandpaper etc to get the old antifouling off. Lets say a total of 7000€
They say it lasts for 10 years but I am pessimistic and calculate with 5 years. So I have 1400€ a year for paint. That would be ok for me. 

Sails are a double edged thing. I don't like furling sails and on a bigger boat you have the space to stow the not used ones. Also some say that sails on carts and stays lasts longer and you can replace them one by one. The same with the standing rigging, on a ketch you have more masts and more starting rigging. But the single masts are not as high and you don't need as much rig tension. So I guess the rig is not as sensitive and you don't need to replace the standing and running rigging as often. 
Standing rigging: 20 000€ every 15 years or 1300€ a year. 
Sails: 3000 a year. (One by one)

Some things like the engine are a little bit bigger but usually more serviceable and the parts lasts longer. 
Last thing are systems you don't have on a smaller boat like hydraulic steering but what else? 

 A place in an marina is more expensive but with a bigger boat I would be more independent and could anchor more. (Similar situation with multihulls. Too expensive as a weekend boat but good to life on.) 

I often find the 10% rule for maintaining costs. But 10% of the value or of the price of the new boat? I can't imagine that a lot of people crossing around the world spend 80-100k a year on maintaining? Could I get away with 10-15k a year? 
 

You might want to stray over to http://www.cruisersforum.com/

They have a few threads on cost of living afloat.

I think you will find that new boats cost of acquisition generally goes up between a square and a cube of the increase in length.  You will find a similar relationship for the cost of maintenance.

In acquiring a used boat you will find that low cost may equate with poor value for two reasons. One an unusually low priced boat (compared to similar boats) may represent a unique opportunity (e.g. estate sale) but typically means a poorly maintained boat. Two typically boat maintenance or restoration only adds about 10 cents on the dollar in value. So you can buy a boat for $50,000 put $100,000 into it for a total out of pocked of $150,000 and ownership of a boat worth $60,000...or you can find the guy that just finished outfitting a boat for world cruise and then changed plans - buy it for 20% more but for $60,000 you then don't have to spend any more. 

The general rule of ownership cost I've heard seems to be 5% of new price in annual maintenance. While this may seem a lot it does seem to work out over multiple years especially if you are trying to maintain the boat in Bristol condition rather than just let it fade away. There may be years you don't spend much but then a new engine and set of sails can add up.

Even is you can get a "good deal" on the buying a larger used boat, you will find that the larger boat will cost an exponentially larger amount to own and operate. That might be good value for you if you can turn larger into more revenue.

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3 minutes ago, KC375 said:

You might want to stray over to http://www.cruisersforum.com/

In my hart I am always a racer. Even when I think about a crossing or traditional boat I want a sailplane that works with that extra amount of trimming options. Also my ideas of how I want to operate the boat are different from most cruisers. The focus lies on sailing (Not many cruisers considering the Hoorn as a possible route) not on traveling with a boat. But on my research I came across many cruisers forum posts so maybe I should sign in there as well. (I know that I had to think about the business first and then find a boat and of course sail another ones boat with another ones money... But it's my weekend and I want to dream a little bit ;-) 

I want to understand why size is such a big factor in maintaining costs. It's not that I don't believe you guys. 

But with 5% I end up with about 20-30 000 a year. Thats much but possible when I do my homer work.  Maybe it's possible to get this down by doing many things without professional help. 

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2 minutes ago, born2sail.at said:

In my hart I am always a racer. Even when I think about a crossing or traditional boat I want a sailplane that works with that extra amount of trimming options. Also my ideas of how I want to operate the boat are different from most cruisers. The focus lies on sailing (Not many cruisers considering the Hoorn as a possible route) not on traveling with a boat. But on my research I came across many cruisers forum posts so maybe I should sign in there as well. (I know that I had to think about the business first and then find a boat and of course sail another ones boat with another ones money... But it's my weekend and I want to dream a little bit ;-) 

I want to understand why size is such a big factor in maintaining costs. It's not that I don't believe you guys. 

But with 5% I end up with about 20-30 000 a year. Thats much but possible when I do my homer work.  Maybe it's possible to get this down by doing many things without professional help. 

area = time or money or both.

Have you ever house painted?

Does it take longer to paint a room with 3 meter ceilings and 50 m^2 area, or a room with 2.4 meter ceiling and 30 m^2 area?

Everything on a bigger boat is bigger, heavier, mpre expenisve, or more numerous. If you think stuff like "yaeh but I won't have any more heads than on hte 40 footer" you are missing the point. Because the following all scale with either the square or the cube of the length:

sail area

paint area

hull maintenance and repair

length of electrical runs and diameter of electrical cable

same for piping or tubing

running rigging

standing rigging

machinery sizing

ground tackle and anchor sizing

rudder and steering gear

and more.

The cost to haul out goes up with boat size.

Mooring cost.

 

 

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1 hour ago, born2sail.at said:

In my hart I am always a racer. Even when I think about a crossing or traditional boat I want a sailplane that works with that extra amount of trimming options. Also my ideas of how I want to operate the boat are different from most cruisers. The focus lies on sailing (Not many cruisers considering the Hoorn as a possible route) not on traveling with a boat. But on my research I came across many cruisers forum posts so maybe I should sign in there as well. (I know that I had to think about the business first and then find a boat and of course sail another ones boat with another ones money... But it's my weekend and I want to dream a little bit ;-) 

I want to understand why size is such a big factor in maintaining costs. It's not that I don't believe you guys. 

But with 5% I end up with about 20-30 000 a year. Thats much but possible when I do my homer work.  Maybe it's possible to get this down by doing many things without professional help. 

Well, traditionally cruisers want to be comfortable.  Rounding the Horn is not the paradigm of comfort is it.  However many cruisers meander around all over the world, whereas many racers race in their own backyard, as it were.  Not all in either category of course.

Maybe there is a market for a charter boat that goes fast.  If you want to carry cargo quickly, look for a used clipper ship, but I imagine they require a good size crew, I doubt they are good for double handed sailing, but with enough automation...

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

Maybe there is a market for a charter boat that goes fast.

Fast is relative. A gaff rigid steel trawler will never be fast like a canting keel carbon race machine. But you can have a decent sail plan with topsails, fisherman and a flying jib etc. Or you can just use the engine... 

Many modern sailboats have the focus on anything but the sails. Ease of use is often more important than a proper trimmed rig. And that's ok, but not for me ;-) I use 1000 pounds on the diamond tension for a reason and I think I could not life with a sail where I only can furl it in or out. No vang, no backstays, no cunningham? Why should I buy a sailboat then? 

Different animal but most modern square rigid vessels are equipped with a safety rig. But in the old days there where more trimming options available. It was possible to hoist the upper yards, so that in higher winds when you don't use the royals and skysails the top weight is not that high up. 

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9 minutes ago, born2sail.at said:

Fast is relative. A gaff rigid steel trawler will never be fast like a canting keel carbon race machine. But you can have a decent sail plan with topsails, fisherman and a flying jib etc. Or you can just use the engine... 

Many modern sailboats have the focus on anything but the sails. Ease of use is often more important than a proper trimmed rig. And that's ok, but not for me ;-) I use 1000 pounds on the diamond tension for a reason and I think I could not life with a sail where I only can furl it in or out. No vang, no backstays, no cunningham? Why should I buy a sailboat then? 

Different animal but most modern square rigid vessels are equipped with a safety rig. But in the old days there where more trimming options available. It was possible to hoist the upper yards, so that in higher winds when you don't use the royals and skysails the top weight is not that high up. 

There are over 400 running lines on the KALMAR NYCKEL.

I think our modern racing dinghies and "sport" boats (especially the ones with bowsprits and flying jibs that people like to call spinnakers;) are laughably simple to set up and trim. Compared to the olden times.

I always wanted a clipper ship with not only skysails but moonsails and starsails.

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

I think our modern racing dinghies and "sport" boats (especially the ones with bowsprits and flying jibs that people like to call spinnakers;) are laughably simple to set up and trim. Compared to the olden times.

I totally agree with you. I am not a big fan of boats called "sailing" yachts with some sort of mast with unshaped tissues, furling into the mast. I think what I wanted to say was that when I say fast I mean the ability to get the most out of the design and the hull. Not the absolute speed. 

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

There are over 400 running lines on the KALMAR NYCKEL.

I think our modern racing dinghies and "sport" boats (especially the ones with bowsprits and flying jibs that people like to call spinnakers;) are laughably simple to set up and trim. Compared to the olden times.

I always wanted a clipper ship with not only skysails but moonsails and starsails.

I built the Revell large plastic models of the USS Constitution and the Cutty Sark when I was young.  And because I was a glutton for punishment and accuracy, I did both with sails on because the ships looked way cooler with all of that running rigging.  I learned a lot about how square rigged ships worked, the rigging was pretty accurate.  I even tied all of the foot ropes on the yards, seizing the loops, not just tying them, as well as individually seizing the ropes restraining all 52  cannons on the Constitution.  The more I progressed on the rigging, the more difficult it was to work around all of the lines.  I got real good at tying knots with tweezers.  I was a very patient kid.

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

I built the Revell large plastic models of the USS Constitution and the Cutty Sark when I was young.  And because I was a glutton for punishment and accuracy, I did both with sails on because the ships looked way cooler with all of that running rigging.  I learned a lot about how square rigged ships worked, the rigging was pretty accurate.  I even tied all of the foot ropes on the yards, seizing the loops, not just tying them, as well as individually seizing the ropes restraining all 52  cannons on the Constitution.  The more I progressed on the rigging, the more difficult it was to work around all of the lines.  I got real good at tying knots with tweezers.  I was a very patient kid.

I did both of them as a kid, too.   Even did the Thermopylae - which was basically the same as the Cutty Sark with some differences in the deck layout.    Had a lot of fun doing them, along with a lot of other models of ships, cars, and aircraft.    Must have been the glue I used......

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8 hours ago, slap said:

I did both of them as a kid, too.   Even did the Thermopylae - which was basically the same as the Cutty Sark with some differences in the deck layout.    Had a lot of fun doing them, along with a lot of other models of ships, cars, and aircraft.    Must have been the glue I used......

My brother and I built a lot of models of all kinds as well.  My brother was more into the cars.  After we built the smaller models, we would run out of room to display them and we were a little bored, so we would squirt Testor's model cement all over them and light 'em up.  I had a submarine model that the side folded down and you could see the interior. A couple of black cat firecrackers took care of that.

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I must be insane to ask that. But what about wood? 

I hate to work with metal, I hate to work with Epoxy but I love to work with wood. Just found a replica of a 47' Pilot Cutter. Built in 2014. price point 250k. 

So how big of a deal is it? 

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1 hour ago, born2sail.at said:

I must be insane to ask that. But what about wood? 

I hate to work with metal, I hate to work with Epoxy but I love to work with wood. Just found a replica of a 47' Pilot Cutter. Built in 2014. price point 250k. 

So how big of a deal is it? 

I personally love wood too. The beauty, the smell, the feel of it, the way it can be worked.  To me, the feel, the 'ride' of a wooden boat in the water is finer than any other material in the same conditions.  

Boats live in a hostile environment, especially in saltwater.  While proper maintenance is an ongoing, Sisyphean task on any boat, wooden boats can be quite labor intensive compared to aluminum, steel or FRG, which I thing is a great part of the appeal of the other materials.  To me sanding and varnishing wood is a relaxing, satisfying endeavor in a Zen kind of way.  Many others hate it.    

It's really a personal decision to decide what your priorities are, and what makes you happy.    

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From what I have heard wooden boats are difficult if you are not always on or near the boat. Leaving a steel boat on the dry for 2 years, no problem. Leaving a wooden boat on the dry for three month and you have a lot of work to do if you want to put it back into the water. 

I have limited myself to steel because everyone says it's a lot of work, much more work than steel. But what does that mean? 

Plus points are: 
Quite a lot of boats with a design I like on the used market. 
Attractive price that would leave me with enough money for repairs. 
I prefer working with wood. 
Faster than steel? 
(More history)

Downsides are: 
Workload.
Hard to find qualified help around the globe. 
More expensive to haul. 
Expensive if I can't to something myself.
Maybe hard to find proper timber. 
Difficult to inspect, you take one plank off and you are building a new boat with a few bolts from the old one. 
Long history could mean that a lot of mistakes where made in the past. 

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7 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

My brother and I built a lot of models of all kinds as well.  My brother was more into the cars.  After we built the smaller models, we would run out of room to display them and we were a little bored, so we would squirt Testor's model cement all over them and light 'em up.  I had a submarine model that the side folded down and you could see the interior. A couple of black cat firecrackers took care of that.

I had that model too - or something similar.   The Revell model USS George Washington.

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4 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

From what I have heard wooden boats are difficult if you are not always on or near the boat. Leaving a steel boat on the dry for 2 years, no problem. Leaving a wooden boat on the dry for three month and you have a lot of work to do if you want to put it back into the water. 

I have limited myself to steel because everyone says it's a lot of work, much more work than steel. But what does that mean? 

Plus points are: 
Quite a lot of boats with a design I like on the used market. 
Attractive price that would leave me with enough money for repairs. 
I prefer working with wood. 
Faster than steel? 
(More history)

Downsides are: 
Workload.
Hard to find qualified help around the globe. 
More expensive to haul. 
Expensive if I can't to something myself.
Maybe hard to find proper timber. 
Difficult to inspect, you take one plank off and you are building a new boat with a few bolts from the old one. 
Long history could mean that a lot of mistakes where made in the past. 

Before going to far into wooden boats you might spend some time here

image.png.2d170e7142239f500477d87c285fd5df.png

I think you want to focus on total cost of ownership not acquisition cost. Twice in my life I almost acquired a beautiful wooden racing boat (one an  8 meter and the other an Atlantic) both times I was enchanted by beauty and relative affordability. After interviewing other owners and boatwrights, in each situation I concluded I would spend the acquisition cost pretty much every season. I bought fiberglass instead and have not regretted it (at least not while sober).

If your name is Leo Samson Goolden you might find the ongoing maintenance less of a challenge, maybe even a joy.

Me, I try to know my limits.

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8 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

From what I have heard wooden boats are difficult if you are not always on or near the boat. Leaving a steel boat on the dry for 2 years, no problem. Leaving a wooden boat on the dry for three month and you have a lot of work to do if you want to put it back into the water. 

I have limited myself to steel because everyone says it's a lot of work, much more work than steel. But what does that mean? 

Plus points are: 
Quite a lot of boats with a design I like on the used market. 
Attractive price that would leave me with enough money for repairs. 
I prefer working with wood. 
Faster than steel? 
(More history)

Downsides are: 
Workload.
Hard to find qualified help around the globe. 
More expensive to haul. 
Expensive if I can't to something myself.
Maybe hard to find proper timber. 
Difficult to inspect, you take one plank off and you are building a new boat with a few bolts from the old one. 
Long history could mean that a lot of mistakes where made in the past. 

Friends of mine built a timber carvel planked boat about the same LOA as my steel boat.

It's a work of art.

Their maintenance is a lot higher than mine and their worries about running aground, hitting stuff and barrier paints to keep worms out of the hull are *way* higher than mine.

OTOH their boat looks gorgeous.

You choose.

I spent a lot of my working life on research vessels of various sorts. I prefer steel. Only last week a friend hauled out, found a thin patch in the bow of his 60 year old steel boat. We cut out the rusty area & welded in a new piece of plate, job done.

A big timber boat? Better have very deep pockets.

FKT

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If you are in the charter business you need a marina berth, at least part of the time. Old charter guests leave Sat AM. Much easier if they step on to a dock with their luggage and a crew member wheels their gear up to the waiting taxi.

You want to be on a dock with fresh water, to refill water, garbage disposal to rapidly clean up the boat. New guests arrive Sun AM.  You often have to hire outside help to get it done NOW. Their charter season is short and if you have guests arriving tomorrow the fridge better be working.

You are in the service business. Impressions matter.

Then there is the inevitable maintenance where you want to be tied to a dock (engine or steering gear out of service) where being at a anchor with either disabled isn't quite as safe.

Have you considered insurance costs as well? Must be much higher with all the liability of guests. And depending on country of registry, annual safety inspections, surveys etc.

10% of hull value would be a bare minimum if you DIY most of it. As the boat ages the $$ for maintenance increases and hull value decreases so use 10% when the boat is newish, not 20 years old.

No way is your rough number enough for a 65' steel boat even if it has a workboat paint finish. Even then steel boats need regular touch up and repaints every decade.

Lots if little things fail or wear out. Water pumps, bilge pumps, running rigging, blocks, electronics, engines need repairs, etc etc. Say you need a new heat exchanger. That's 500 Euro before labour. The radar is busted again and the tech charges 120/hr. It all adds up.

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45 minutes ago, Zonker said:

If you are in the charter business you need a marina berth, at least part of the time. Old charter guests leave Sat AM. Much easier if they step on to a dock with their luggage and a crew member wheels their gear up to the waiting taxi.

With the idea of the wooden boat I am back in the tall ship / traditional scene business. I don't see a chance for myself in the very competitive charter market. 

Markets: Tall ship races, day guests at events, team building, Sail training and unusual cruises with a ship that stands out. Maybe some fitness and weight losing cruises, I bet there is a market for that. 

Insurance and certification are interesting topics. I don't have an idea jet. It seams that a lot depends on where the vessel is registered. For example there are specific regulations for traditional ships in Germany. They even have a captains license endorsement for that reason. Only downside is that you can't make profit with the ship. What ever that means. 

Marina costs are also a little bit less with a traditional ship. I found prices at 1,50€ per Meter. 

And my girlfriend has sailed a tall ship race on a Colin Archer. I don't want to say that she/we know the business but we know the people who run that ship and I think we could do that. (Marketing is missing and they still have guests most of the time). Also she worked on a commercial RORO ship for more than a year. We have worked as sailing instructors for more than five years before we started racing. I know the people who work in the industry. Most of them are successful even with big gaps in their business plans. Maybe it's much harder in the US? 

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4 minutes ago, born2sail.at said:

With the idea of the wooden boat I am back in the tall ship / traditional scene business. I don't see a chance for myself in the very competitive charter market. 

Markets: Tall ship races, day guests at events, team building, Sail training and unusual cruises with a ship that stands out. Maybe some fitness and weight losing cruises, I bet there is a market for that. 

Insurance and certification are interesting topics. I don't have an idea jet. It seams that a lot depends on where the vessel is registered. For example there are specific regulations for traditional ships in Germany. They even have a captains license endorsement for that reason. Only downside is that you can't make profit with the ship. What ever that means. 

Marina costs are also a little bit less with a traditional ship. I found prices at 1,50€ per Meter. 

And my girlfriend has sailed a tall ship race on a Colin Archer. I don't want to say that she/we know the business but we know the people who run that ship and I think we could do that. (Marketing is missing and they still have guests most of the time). Also she worked on a commercial RORO ship for more than a year. We have worked as sailing instructors for more than five years before we started racing. I know the people who work in the industry. Most of them are successful even with big gaps in their business plans. Maybe it's much harder in the US? 

Hey, the concept has worked very well for Windjammer Cruises.  They have been around for a long time  Although I do believe their ships are steel, not wood.  I am too tired to look it up  right now, it's late here.

It's something to look into anyway, you are looking at a much smaller scale operation.

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I'm no expert but I think the best advice given here way back in the the thread, is you and your GF get a crew job on a boat/business that you hope to copy.  Or a business as similar as possible.  Volunteer for food and berth, maybe some pocket money, if necessary.  Get some experience as to what is involved and what type of vessel or clients are out there.  It ought/should to be fun for you. If it isn't then do you really want to invest your life savings and be tied to this business AND BOAT?  As a crew you have no responsibility, you can give notice and walk away.  You can't if you have a large boat with monthly marina, insurance and more costs.  A year or two of crewing and you will be giving us advice, and you will know whether you want to do this.  All your questions, and the advice given here are well and good but I can't imagine starting a business without some experience.  You are asking about a 60-80' boat.  This is a huge weight around your neck and you will never be able to get out of it quickly or cheaply.  Now if you start small with a 40 footer then you have way more exit options.  I think you are real, but I can't help the slight impression this is a troll, kind of like at the start of fish food's thread.   A couple posters gave good advice for thorough marketing and research into the sector.  However, I'm talking about good old fashion apprenticeship.  I don't think you can learn this business from Utube, forums or walking the docks/calling competitors and asking advice.   I wish you success.  Please revive this thread in a year or 3 and tell us how it went.  Good luck.

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10 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

They have been around for a long time  Although I do believe their ships are steel, not wood. 

It's something to look into anyway, you are looking at a much smaller scale operation.

Both, the majority is built of steel but there are wooden boats as well.  Especially in the 20 to 30 Meter range. This whole tread has been my search for sweet spot between to much boat and not enough space/cabins.  There are not many boats even in the 30 to 40 Meter range carrying more than 12 passengers.  I think the reason is SOLAS compliance. 

 

1 hour ago, eric1207 said:

I'm no expert but I think the best advice given here way back in the the thread, is you and your GF get a crew job on a boat/business that you hope to copy. 

I got that advice and I would definitely book some sail training on a similar type of vessel. Got it. But to ask the right questions I have to know what I want and I have to know what is financially possible for me. 

 

1 hour ago, eric1207 said:

ou are asking about a 60-80' boat.  This is a huge weight around your neck and you will never be able to get out of it quickly or cheaply.  Now if you start small with a 40 footer then you have way more exit options.

It sounds a little bit more than it is. Hull lengths I am looking for are around 44' to 47'. But with the hughe bowsprit and davits you reach that LOA of 60'. I would be totally fine with a boat under 40' for myself. Maybe a Fisher 37. But only one V-berth for  guests is limiting the business options quite much. Maybe I get my YouTube channel running in the next few months while I am still racing the Nacra 17 and get a "passive" income. Then I could forget about the focus on the business idea. 

My costs for camping are quite high at the moment. Something around 8000€ a year. And the reeling value of my stuff like the caravan and the car goes down every single month. I could rent a flat but I would loose money every month and still would need the car. Maybe it's a good idea to purchase a small boat first to live on and get all the qualifications first, then resell it and buy something bigger for guests. But I am not the best salesman and I usually loose some money when I sell something like a car. So I rather do my homework first, get as much informations I can get and only play one card. 

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12 passengers is a flag state limit in Red Ensign as well as most other countries, for a "commer ial yacht."

 If you have a boat inspected for actual passenger service 12 would not mean anything.but in U.S. 49 would.

You are looking at lots of charter yachts not head boats which is why you see that limit.

P.s there is a 36 pax Rule for yachts for charter in SOLAS but that has a separate flag state rule in Red Ensign countries.

(Most u.s. charter yachts are registered under British Commonwealth so that's my experience and why I am speaking from that basis)

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On 12/8/2019 at 5:42 PM, KC375 said:

Before going to far into wooden boats you might spend some time here

Why did you do that to me? I am now considering building a wooden ship by my own hands. Think I need professional help by a headshrinker. Or drink less, or more, I definitely got the wrong dose. 

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20 minutes ago, born2sail.at said:

Why did you do that to me? I am now considering building a wooden ship by my own hands. Think I need professional help by a headshrinker. Or drink less, or more, I definitely got the wrong dose. 

Or here

But definitely not here

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32 minutes ago, born2sail.at said:

Why did you do that to me? I am now considering building a wooden ship by my own hands. Think I need professional help by a headshrinker. Or drink less, or more, I definitely got the wrong dose. 

That is exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm encouraging you to get the big picture stuff right before you get tied into the details of one path or adventure. Learn by sucking up info from those who have gone before and get some real experiential learning using other peoples situations - drop in learn drop out, repeat until you know enough to commit years at a time.

Best of luck

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The latest trend in charter :

 

47 ft, 6 double cabin (essentially a 47 footer where the salon has been removed and replaced by 2 cabins).

Exterior galley and dual cockpit table. 

Hosting 10 to 12 peoples means sizeable galley and sizeable dining space.

Hard to use in bad weather, but rather few people rent boats in not so sunny locations.

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