Stingray~

INEOS Team GB

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2 hours ago, dullers said:

I just said that....It was in my last sentence.  It was the same for you in SF and 2003.

Oh God yes, 2003 made Ben's current problems look like an excess of pocket lint in comparison.

However, I'm not sure the comparison with SF is so fair as they did almost win the thing.

In fact, I think the conservatism we saw in SF was partially borne out of the cluster fuck that was 2003.

If they'd been a little bit less risk adverse in SF I reckon they would have won.

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1 hour ago, erdb said:

 

Foil cant angle changes are public. @dorox made a nice tool to look at all published data: https://ac36.herokuapp.com/stats_app

ETNZ doesn't trim their foil cant any more than the others. In fact, they may be adjusting it less frequently suggesting that their other control systems are more adaptable and they don't have to drive the FCS to death. Most teams seem to adjust the angle in steps of 1 deg. Only LR seems to have a different way of adjustment. These I believe are jibes on the first day of racing: LR seems to produce nice continuous changes in cant angle while accelerating out of the jibe:

1180896678_NZLvsITA.thumb.png.c54273c9f2ba16f1ac0f7827f64ea37c.png

However, on their second race with ETNZ, they had the same square-like angle changes:ITA-NZL2.thumb.png.16ce0a0a5fce1f63c347dd9fcb32b6ce.png

This was also in much lighter wind, and as the boats become unstable, they need to adjust the foil cant more. However, again it seems LR plays a lot more with cant angle than ETNZ. Just look at how much faster ETNZ is back at target cant angle after their tacks / jibes. That must be better sail trim and acceleration. 

Compare it to INEOS. This is from the first day in good winds. LR hardly makes any adjustments, while INEOS is all over the place:

ITA-GBR-problem.thumb.png.2a18c7ee40f9815f5fd71e8b9e024c25.png

And again, against AM:

1113344957_AM-GBR-hugechanges.thumb.png.0a3b850819523176ab4d038e55a8b3cb.png

It's either their side of foil control giving the wrong commands to the FCS, or more likely, their sail trim sucks, can't keep heeling moment steady and they try to make up for it by adjusting the cant angle all the time.

The first day when the FCS was shitting itself? 
 

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13 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Oh God yes, 2003 made Ben's current problems look like an excess of pocket lint in comparison.

However, I'm not sure the comparison with SF is so fair as they did almost win the thing.

In fact, I think the conservatism we saw in SF was partially borne out of the cluster fuck that was 2003.

If they'd been a little bit less risk adverse in SF I reckon they would have won.

But for a management decision (based on seemingly, invincibility) they likely would have.

Made a hell of a story though - and a redemption. Actually, more like resurrection, now that I come to think of it.

Edited by Sailbydate
Back from the grave

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On the issue of sand bagging does anyone really believe Ineos are guilty of that? They could have still sailed courses if they were without giving away whatever they were trying to hide? If they were it would be the greatest show in the history of the AC. And does it matter? The Kiwis are going to make their boat as fast as possible irrespective of whatever the challengers are doing. Their organizational structure says to me they are were their at. I would like to know the budget Ineos has had to work with in comparison to ETNZ, Prada and American Magic? 

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Just now, terrafirma said:

On the issue of sand bagging does anyone really believe Ineos are guilty of that? They could have still sailed courses if they were without giving away whatever they were trying to hide? If they were it would be the greatest show in the history of the AC. And does it matter? The Kiwis are going to make their boat as fast as possible irrespective of whatever the challengers are doing. Their organizational structure says to me they are were their at. I would like to know the budget Ineos has had to work with in comparison to ETNZ, Prada and American Magic? 

No

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On 12/20/2020 at 11:28 PM, fish7yu said:

Yep, Rita 2 was actually faster than TR today............. in displacement mode.

sayling angelz, until thay wer on TNZ's trale steeling thair wind.

Diddent seme to be katching them then. Havent tshekt tho ...

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19 hours ago, Finnfart said:

My guess is that the curse is in the foils, but not for the reasons mentioned in the series of pictures previously shown.   As someone mentioned, the lift from the different configs, from the straight wings to the delta wing can be calculated easily.  No doubt, GB's foils have the ability to lift.

Drag is the problem and it stems from the Y configuration.   TNZ is the only team running straight T foils.   They rely on the vertical part of the swing arm to get their lateral lift.   The rest of the teams put some Y in the foils so that they could get both vertical and lateral lift.   But if you think about the lateral lift from a Y foil, it cancels its self out, and just gives you drag.

I'm sure they are smart people on three of the teams that had a good reason to do this Y, but I don't see it.   Lateral isn't helped.  Overall wetted surface in increased, and well What?  More flexible angles?  When you can just adjust the cant of the swing arm....   

My 2¢ after not thinking about the AC for a few years now!  

Ps.   Hi TC.   Was in SF a week ago and thought fondly of our champagne at AC34 years ago!   Wouldn't take that bet for GB right now!

I Finnfart, I just discover your post now as I have been out for a while.

Yes, that was a wonderful time when we had Champagne while watching OR training, it was probably the time they found their faster mode.

I hope we meet for a next AC, perhaps with @Stingray~

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11 minutes ago, Xlot said:

 

Ahh, I love these guys. You can, ahh, be pretty ahhh, messed up and still, ahh follow them.

Seriously, I would love to see them reannounce a race replay, as if they were the actual commentators. Knowledgeable and entertaining, in ahh, their own sort of way.

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2 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

Seems like a pretty coherent theory across all the evidence. Needs some first hand verification of the facts used to arrive at the hypothesis to be sure, or we just wait and see, but again, if these guys aren't right 100% of the time they are making a great contribution of ideas nonetheless.

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2 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

They are suggesting what I’ve been posting too, Ineos is a very fast boat; except for those light-airs tack problems the boat is perfectly competitive. 

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

They are suggesting what I’ve been posting too, Ineos is a very fast boat; except for those light-airs tack problems the boat is perfectly competitive. 

It's not just light air manouvres we are seeing as problematic IMO stinger and without excellent speed and stability through the manouvres, they are fucked.

The easiest way to resolve this problem is probably foils with more lift, but this means more drag and they may not be able to modify them any more and remain within the rules anywho.

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

They are suggesting what I’ve been posting too, Ineos is a very fast boat; except for those light-airs tack problems the boat is perfectly competitive. 

My van is very fast except for all those things that make it slow....:ph34r:

Even on the first day of racing which had plenty of breeze they were not competitive.

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Seems just removing the foils, and then reattaching them with a higher angle of attack will help a lot. However angle of attack is very basic stuff, any student pilot knows it well. How could Ineos make such a basic mistake, unless angle of attack is not the problem. To be honest I suspect Ineos being dumb 

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14 minutes ago, uflux said:

My van is very fast except for all those things that make it slow....:ph34r:

Even on the first day of racing which had plenty of breeze they were not competitive.

Correct. Being fast in a straight line is not the same as being fast around the course.

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20 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Correct. Being fast in a straight line is not the same as being fast around the course.

Mercedes F1 cars are often not the fastest in a straight line, there usually fastest around a corner. 

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46 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

They are suggesting what I’ve been posting too, Ineos is a very fast boat; except for those light-airs tack problems the boat is perfectly competitive. 

Speed maybe okay, but vmg? Not so much imo. "Sideways fast" was my impression when they were actually foiling.

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On 12/19/2020 at 5:44 PM, Finnfart said:

But back to Ben.   He clearly excelled when at the top of the pile.  Good on him.   But we also saw many public displays that show he didn't have it all under control.   Remember when he jumped out of his boat and sucker punched a photographer for making wakes?  If you don't believe me, look it up.

He manhandled the photographer, certainly was threatening, certainly unacceptable behaviour. But no evidence of a punch, let alone a "sucker punch". How, come to that, could you jump off a boat, climb on another and deliver a "sucker punch" (an unexpected punch or blow.). Unexpected would have kind of evaporated at the point an obviously furious sailor was climbing aboard. SA does love to exaggerate, layer on layer.

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Just looking at differences between INEOS and ENTZ, has anyone done a comparison re the weight distribution of crew along the length of the yacht? i.e. INEOS spread out vs ENTZ packed in tightly. Just wondering if the ENTZ crew being distributed along a shorter distance, thereby concentrates their weight closer to the foil arm and therefore gives the rudder less weight to counter balance, particularly when the loading on the foils is changing during tacks and gybes.  Thoughts?

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7 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

Just looking at differences between INEOS and ENTZ, has anyone done a comparison re the weight distribution of crew along the length of the yacht? i.e. INEOS spread out vs ENTZ packed in tightly. Just wondering if the ENTZ crew being distributed along a shorter distance, thereby concentrates their weight closer to the foil arm and therefore gives the rudder less weight to counter balance, particularly when the loading on the foils is changing during tacks and gybes.  Thoughts?

Distance from the fulcrum, the foil, would be the critical thing I'd imagine. Haven't checked.

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Having people more spread would increase the angular momentum and thus actually smooth the changes through the turns.

So from the analysis to date

1) The issue isn't the top speed (though I haven't seen any quantitive data on angles or VMG)

2) The data shows the that low speed after turns is poor.

Thus it isn't power, speed, acceleration out of the turns and thus not power. Hence it must be drag through the turns. Thus it suggests it is not sail related, or even aero related. But foils.

Could be cant control, foil shape, or flap control.

All of those can be changed between now and Prada. Assuming of course that one or more wasn't deliberately sub-optimal for the sake of sandbagging 

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11 hours ago, erdb said:

 

Foil cant angle changes are public. @dorox made a nice tool to look at all published data: https://ac36.herokuapp.com/stats_app

ETNZ doesn't trim their foil cant any more than the others. In fact, they may be adjusting it less frequently suggesting that their other control systems are more adaptable and they don't have to drive the FCS to death. Most teams seem to adjust the angle in steps of 1 deg. Only LR seems to have a different way of adjustment. These I believe are jibes on the first day of racing: LR seems to produce nice continuous changes in cant angle while accelerating out of the jibe:

1180896678_NZLvsITA.thumb.png.c54273c9f2ba16f1ac0f7827f64ea37c.png

However, on their second race with ETNZ, they had the same square-like angle changes:ITA-NZL2.thumb.png.16ce0a0a5fce1f63c347dd9fcb32b6ce.png

This was also in much lighter wind, and as the boats become unstable, they need to adjust the foil cant more. However, again it seems LR plays a lot more with cant angle than ETNZ. Just look at how much faster ETNZ is back at target cant angle after their tacks / jibes. That must be better sail trim and acceleration. 

Compare it to INEOS. This is from the first day in good winds. LR hardly makes any adjustments, while INEOS is all over the place:

ITA-GBR-problem.thumb.png.2a18c7ee40f9815f5fd71e8b9e024c25.png

And again, against AM:

1113344957_AM-GBR-hugechanges.thumb.png.0a3b850819523176ab4d038e55a8b3cb.png

It's either their side of foil control giving the wrong commands to the FCS, or more likely, their sail trim sucks, can't keep heeling moment steady and they try to make up for it by adjusting the cant angle all the time.

Is this cause or effect of the FCS problems though?

The races against NZL on the second day the cant angles look similar in how they are moving. What we don't know is if what we see on the first day in cant angles is becuase of the FCS issues, or what caused them. 

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10 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Having people more spread would increase the angular momentum and thus actually smooth the changes through the turns.

So from the analysis to date

1) The issue isn't the top speed (though I haven't seen any quantitive data on angles or VMG)

2) The data shows the that low speed after turns is poor.

Thus it isn't power, speed, acceleration out of the turns and thus not power. Hence it must be drag through the turns. Thus it suggests it is not sail related, or even aero related. But foils.

Could be cant control, foil shape, or flap control.

All of those can be changed between now and Prada. Assuming of course that one or more wasn't deliberately sub-optimal for the sake of sandbagging 

Enigmatically, interesting thanks. Just looking at the extreme case i.e. weight 100% centered or weight in the ends, aren't you getting an initial damping effect, but then as it starts to move up/down, your having to put in greater corrections.  Having the mass as central as possible would allow the rudder elevator to have greater authority no?

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5 hours ago, mako23 said:

Seems just removing the foils, and then reattaching them with a higher angle of attack will help a lot. However angle of attack is very basic stuff, any student pilot knows it well. How could Ineos make such a basic mistake, unless angle of attack is not the problem. To be honest I suspect Ineos being dumb 

I think the initial foil AoA relative to MWP is determined by the designed hull AoA.

For example, NZ flies with a hull AoA (pitch) of -2° (ie bow down), while GB looks like they fly at about -1°.   I suspect they would want the foil AoA to be zero at design pitch, so for GB this would mean an initial foil AoA of +1°.  Based on this theory, NZ would have an initial foil AoA of +2°.

Then thinking about what happens when they drop off the foils, and have to try to get back up. There are 2 ways to change the foil AoA - the pitch of the hull and the angle of the flaps. Flat in the water, adjusting hull pitch is out. Since the boats are more or less level in pitch, NZ has it's foil already at 2°, GB only at 1°.

Bottom line is that GB probably needs to use a lot more flap for takeoffs and low speed turns etc. I suspect that drag, especially induced drag, would be higher in these circumstances than other boats. So GB would require a more power to overcome additional drag before they can foil.

Maybe.

 

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38 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

Enigmatically, interesting thanks. Just looking at the extreme case i.e. weight 100% centered or weight in the ends, aren't you getting an initial damping effect, but then as it starts to move up/down, your having to put in greater corrections.  Having the mass as central as possible would allow the rudder elevator to have greater authority no?

True, it's a matter of moments, and momentum. ;)

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5 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

I think the initial foil AoA relative to MWP is determined by the designed hull AoA.

For example, NZ flies with a hull AoA (pitch) of -2° (ie bow down), while GB looks like they fly at about -1°.   I suspect they would want the foil AoA to be zero at design pitch, so for GB this would mean an initial foil AoA of +1°.  Based on this theory, NZ would have an initial foil AoA of +2°.

Then thinking about what happens when they drop off the foils, and have to try to get back up. There are 2 ways to change the foil AoA - the pitch of the hull and the angle of the flaps. Flat in the water, adjusting hull pitch is out. Since the boats are more or less level in pitch, NZ has it's foil already at 2°, GB only at 1°.

Bottom line is that GB probably needs to use a lot more flap for takeoffs and low speed turns etc. I suspect that drag, especially induced drag, would be higher in these circumstances than other boats. So GB would require a more power to overcome additional drag before they can foil.

Maybe.

 

Also flap on rudder will also play with A0A,  which explains why at high speed the AOA is very low 

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9 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Also flap on rudder will also play with A0A,  which explains why at high speed the AOA is very low 

The primary purpose of the stabilator is to manage the pitch of the boat so it flies at it's design pitch. It has to strike a balance between the sail Drive force, which is trying to pitchpole the boat, vs boat mass ± stabilator force.

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14 hours ago, erdb said:

 

Foil cant angle changes are public. @dorox made a nice tool to look at all published data: https://ac36.herokuapp.com/stats_app

ETNZ doesn't trim their foil cant any more than the others. In fact, they may be adjusting it less frequently suggesting that their other control systems are more adaptable and they don't have to drive the FCS to death. Most teams seem to adjust the angle in steps of 1 deg. Only LR seems to have a different way of adjustment. These I believe are jibes on the first day of racing: LR seems to produce nice continuous changes in cant angle while accelerating out of the jibe:

1180896678_NZLvsITA.thumb.png.c54273c9f2ba16f1ac0f7827f64ea37c.png

However, on their second race with ETNZ, they had the same square-like angle changes:ITA-NZL2.thumb.png.16ce0a0a5fce1f63c347dd9fcb32b6ce.png

This was also in much lighter wind, and as the boats become unstable, they need to adjust the foil cant more. However, again it seems LR plays a lot more with cant angle than ETNZ. Just look at how much faster ETNZ is back at target cant angle after their tacks / jibes. That must be better sail trim and acceleration. 

Compare it to INEOS. This is from the first day in good winds. LR hardly makes any adjustments, while INEOS is all over the place:

ITA-GBR-problem.thumb.png.2a18c7ee40f9815f5fd71e8b9e024c25.png

And again, against AM:

1113344957_AM-GBR-hugechanges.thumb.png.0a3b850819523176ab4d038e55a8b3cb.png

It's either their side of foil control giving the wrong commands to the FCS, or more likely, their sail trim sucks, can't keep heeling moment steady and they try to make up for it by adjusting the cant angle all the time.

how is all of this data collected?

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2 hours ago, Chris UK said:

Enigmatically, interesting thanks. Just looking at the extreme case i.e. weight 100% centered or weight in the ends, aren't you getting an initial damping effect, but then as it starts to move up/down, your having to put in greater corrections.  Having the mass as central as possible would allow the rudder elevator to have greater authority no?

wrt to angular momentum I was thinking of impact on the foils rather than the rudder. But yes, once the boat has started rotating then the increased angular moment could require more effort to stop it

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13 hours ago, jaysper said:

Oh God yes, 2003 made Ben's current problems look like an excess of pocket lint in comparison.

However, I'm not sure the comparison with SF is so fair as they did almost win the thing.

In fact, I think the conservatism we saw in SF was partially borne out of the cluster fuck that was 2003.

If they'd been a little bit less risk adverse in SF I reckon they would have won.

Depending on how this goes makes me feel that GB may not enter the AC again. It will be even harder to get sponsors next time. I was also thinking if this type of racing is a crowd grabber outside of NZ.(Tv as well). You have made the AC your own but am not sure what the future is?  While it is satisfying to any NZ fan watching a competitor get lapped it  is of limited use to future audiences.  Even half a knot difference will lead to blow out leads.  To be honest I miss watching the old mono hulls with the spinnaker handling. I watched the 2003 race from my boat in NZ and it was great. I remember watching the yachts in the build up sailing on just their mains before the start. The speed was impressive for those days.

Some rule changes needed maybe. The choosing of the foil 5 days out seems like a very stupid rule. Lets say 2 of the boats get the foils wrong. Will that make for good watching? After all this is entertainment.  Over half the crew are on board just doing a gym session. The AC has become a hybrid of gym work and tech with some sailors needed.  In the low wind speeds they dont even do half the manoeuvres in case they come of the foils.  All it takes is one yacht to fall into a wind hole and the result is known even with a few minutes of the start. In SF I have always wondered how the US got the extra speed. (I am not in the they cheated brigade) I doubt any team plays a straight bat. Anyway INEOS are not finished yet.

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

Depending on how this goes makes me feel that GB may not enter the AC again. It will be even harder to get sponsors next time. I was also thinking if this type of racing is a crowd grabber outside of NZ.(Tv as well). You have made the AC your own but am not sure what the future is?  While it is satisfying to any NZ fan watching a competitor get lapped it  is of limited use to future audiences.  Even half a knot difference will lead to blow out leads.  To be honest I miss watching the old mono hulls with the spinnaker handling. I watched the 2003 race from my boat in NZ and it was great. I remember watching the yachts in the build up sailing on just their mains before the start. The speed was impressive for those days.

Some rule changes needed maybe. The choosing of the foil 5 days out seems like a very stupid rule. Lets say 2 of the boats get the foils wrong. Will that make for good watching? After all this is entertainment.  Over half the crew are on board just doing a gym session. The AC has become a hybrid of gym work and tech with some sailors needed.  In the low wind speeds they dont even do half the manoeuvres in case they come of the foils.  All it takes is one yacht to fall into a wind hole and the result is known even with a few minutes of the start. In SF I have always wondered how the US got the extra speed. (I am not in the they cheated brigade) I doubt any team plays a straight bat. Anyway INEOS are not finished yet.

Agreed re choice of boat.

I miss the IACCs and think this stupid class has been responsible for such piss poor  number of challengers.

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I seem to remember a radical boat being delivered that was promised to be a world beater and for its first practice races against another to the same design rule proving to not perform as the designer expected.

The boat that would 'wobble' in the wrong wave pattern and was quoted as almost impossible to steer at times early in her life went on to dominate Newport in 1983 and ended the longest sporting run in history, let alone uniting a country through sport as never before.

Australia 2 was not as expected when she was launched and Challenge 12 would be more than a match for her at times but she went on to record an unprecedented (and as far as I know unequalled since) string of victories in the round robins before defeating Liberty in the actual America's Cup match.

She also had her share of breakdowns in the actual match itself with the steering letting go in one race and the mainsail headboard almost ripping off the sail in another with the rig jacked way forward to keep the end of the boom off the deck while the bowman was at the top of the mast jury rigging the thing together.

Comparing A2 to INEOS may be comparing apples to oranges but until the Prada Cup comes around it is all just practice and conjecture and we won't really know until then. 

They have a mountain to climb regarding their performance but it has been done before even though this particular mountain does at present look to be of Everest proportions. Then again I suppose the summit of Everest does look pretty daunting when viewed from Base Camp.

Just throwing a pebble in the pond but right now I would bet Jim Ratcliffe is feeling pretty similar to how Alan Bond in the first few days and weeks of A2's life.

Time will tell and it is only those inside the INEOS camp who have any idea of just how serious (or otherwise) their performance issues are. Fun to guess though

SS  

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19 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

 

Australia 2 was not as expected when she was launched and Challenge 12 would be more than a match for her at times but she went on to record an unprecedented (and as far as I know unequalled since) string of victories in the round robins before defeating Liberty in the actual America's Cup match.

 

Nzl32/38 likely hold that record pretty handily...

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Australia 2 was launched in June of 1982 and had more than a full year's workup to get to the shape she was in by August 1983 for the LV. The 12 m rule was well established and she survived a legal challenge re legality - INEOS is limited by their own foil design and allotment and has 3 weeks in a remote base. The difference in technical complexity and time is like night and say - Colin Chapman handdrawing some wings on a Lotus and getting it fabricated in metal vs. Mercedes F1 in 2020 spending 9 months in a wind tunnel and CFD and handlaidup front wing that affects the rest of the car in 2021.

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Little bit of Ineos hate going on in Belgium if anyone cares. Apparently all their vehicles were damaged/vandalized last night.... Ineos Grenadiers has confirmed that six of their vehicles were vandalised, including a race car and a team bus, with the words “Ineos will fall” painted on the side.  The damage is believed to be an protest linked to the Ineos Will Fall campaign group, which opposes the environmental impact of chemical company Ineos, which sponsors the cycling team. Not sailing but thought I would bring it forward....

 

 

Capture33.PNG

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2 minutes ago, notallthere said:

Nzl32/38 likely hold that record pretty handily...

To be honest I didn't bother to check so ready to be corrected.

 

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35 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

To be honest I didn't bother to check so ready to be corrected.

 

In fairness, Oz II achieved this feat 12 years earlier so was absolutely unprecedented at the time :-)

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38 minutes ago, XPRO said:

Little bit of Ineos hate going on in Belgium if anyone cares. Apparently all their vehicles were damaged/vandalized last night.... Ineos Grenadiers has confirmed that six of their vehicles were vandalised, including a race car and a team bus, with the words “Ineos will fall” painted on the side.  The damage is believed to be an protest linked to the Ineos Will Fall campaign group, which opposes the environmental impact of chemical company Ineos, which sponsors the cycling team. Not sailing but thought I would bring it forward....

 

 

Capture33.PNG

Eh? Why the fuck?

Is this some stupid anti-Brexit thing?

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1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

I seem to remember a radical boat being delivered that was promised to be a world beater and for its first practice races against another to the same design rule proving to not perform as the designer expected.

The boat that would 'wobble' in the wrong wave pattern and was quoted as almost impossible to steer at times early in her life went on to dominate Newport in 1983 and ended the longest sporting run in history, let alone uniting a country through sport as never before.

Australia 2 was not as expected when she was launched and Challenge 12 would be more than a match for her at times but she went on to record an unprecedented (and as far as I know unequalled since) string of victories in the round robins before defeating Liberty in the actual America's Cup match.

She also had her share of breakdowns in the actual match itself with the steering letting go in one race and the mainsail headboard almost ripping off the sail in another with the rig jacked way forward to keep the end of the boom off the deck while the bowman was at the top of the mast jury rigging the thing together.

Comparing A2 to INEOS may be comparing apples to oranges but until the Prada Cup comes around it is all just practice and conjecture and we won't really know until then. 

They have a mountain to climb regarding their performance but it has been done before even though this particular mountain does at present look to be of Everest proportions. Then again I suppose the summit of Everest does look pretty daunting when viewed from Base Camp.

Just throwing a pebble in the pond but right now I would bet Jim Ratcliffe is feeling pretty similar to how Alan Bond in the first few days and weeks of A2's life.

Time will tell and it is only those inside the INEOS camp who have any idea of just how serious (or otherwise) their performance issues are. Fun to guess though

SS  

Nice post.

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3 hours ago, dullers said:

After all this is entertainment. 

Is it?

I thought it was a design race, in sail boats, between far too wealthy individuals paying to watch other people design and sail their boats.

These rich folk probably don't care about your entertainment. 

They would be happy to sweep every competitor in every race by 5 minutes...

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6 minutes ago, Liquid said:

Is it?

I thought it was a design race, in sail boats, between far too wealthy individuals paying to watch other people design and sail their boats.

These rich folk probably don't care about your entertainment. 

They would be happy to sweep every competitor in every race by 5 minutes...

True. You would have to wonder why they write all over their boats then?  You are mostly right though.

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4 minutes ago, dullers said:

True. You would have to wonder why they write all over their boats then?

Difference between entertainment and sponsorship though.

Firstly, winning by 5 minutes makes your brand stand out more.

Secondly, for the Billionaires behind these boats the branding is just a way of making sure that they can get a tax write off for their hobby.

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3 minutes ago, dullers said:

You would have to wonder why they write all over their boats then?

Ego/vanity project sponsored by your own company via a bump in your marketing budget?

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1 hour ago, XPRO said:

Little bit of Ineos hate going on in Belgium if anyone cares. Apparently all their vehicles were damaged/vandalized last night.... Ineos Grenadiers has confirmed that six of their vehicles were vandalised, including a race car and a team bus, with the words “Ineos will fall” painted on the side.  The damage is believed to be an protest linked to the Ineos Will Fall campaign group, which opposes the environmental impact of chemical company Ineos, which sponsors the cycling team. Not sailing but thought I would bring it forward....

I note the irony of the use of chemicals to paint the graffiti (some of which may even have been manufactured by Ineos).

But not yet as bad as a fan of a team sponsored by an airline criticising a team for its sponsorship by a petrochemical producer.

 

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3 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Difference between entertainment and sponsorship though.

Firstly, winning by 5 minutes makes your brand stand out more.

Secondly, for the Billionaires behind these boats the branding is just a way of making sure that they can get a tax write off for their hobby.

Cant argue with that.

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31 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I note the irony of the use of chemicals to paint the graffiti (some of which may even have been manufactured by Ineos).

But not yet as bad as a fan of a team sponsored by an airline criticising a team for its sponsorship by a petrochemical producer.

 

A lot of the anti-fracking stuff is about as grass roots as astroturf. There are unique ecological challenges to be sure - but the per se anti-fracking movement is largely geopolitically beneficial and funded by Russia in the EU & offshore petroleum producers who don't want domestic reserves developed and weaken their cash for gov budget. Kind of like every attempt to create a singular homogenized nuclear reactor for the entire country (following France since the 1950s) - gets a ton of money thrown in the pushback that ends up coming from other sources of electric generation vested interests (e.g. coal and now gas).

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20 minutes ago, Miffy said:

A lot of the anti-fracking stuff is about as grass roots as astroturf. There are unique ecological challenges to be sure - but the per se anti-fracking movement is largely geopolitically beneficial and funded by Russia in the EU & offshore petroleum producers who don't want domestic reserves developed and weaken their cash for gov budget.

Yeah that and regions where you can open your faucet, strike a match and enjoy a free light show.  

 

Aside:  Have you ever met or seen a competitive sportsman who needs to feel real or perceived slights against them to perform their best? (watch the Michael Jordan ESPN doc btw)  If that's the case, Ben should be able to punch the moon out of the sky at this point. I can't stand him but I'm actually starting to feel a little bad for him.

 

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1 hour ago, XPRO said:

Little bit of Ineos hate going on in Belgium if anyone cares. Apparently all their vehicles were damaged/vandalized last night.... Ineos Grenadiers has confirmed that six of their vehicles were vandalised, including a race car and a team bus, with the words “Ineos will fall” painted on the side.  The damage is believed to be an protest linked to the Ineos Will Fall campaign group, which opposes the environmental impact of chemical company Ineos, which sponsors the cycling team. Not sailing but thought I would bring it forward....

 

 

Capture33.PNG

 

1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Eh? Why the fuck?

Is this some stupid anti-Brexit thing?

I've made it easy for you.

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If Ben's on the water performance was the issue maybe INOES might have a chance - but it has never been about Ben's abilities as a helmsman/tactician. 

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3 minutes ago, Miffy said:

If Ben's on the water performance was the issue maybe INOES might have a chance - but it has never been about Ben's abilities as a helmsman/tactician. 

You have to give the few Kiwis(Not all of you) something to focus on.  I suspect Ben is the best helmsmen there but it is the whole package that wins the race.

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5 minutes ago, mad said:

 

I've made it easy for you.

Yeah I get that they quoted Greenie credentials, but why suddenly now? The EU has its panties in a bunch over Brexit with Belgium being the epicentre of that ill feeling

Hence I am wondering if there is a deeper underlying cause.

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2 minutes ago, dullers said:

You have to give the few Kiwis(Not all of you) something to focus on.  I suspect Ben is the best helmsmen there but it is the whole package that wins the race.

He certainly might be. Def better than Barker and Spithill IMO and could be better Burling too for all I know.

However, that won't save him from a dog boat. 

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58 minutes ago, Liquid said:

Ego/vanity project sponsored by your own dodgy regime of choice via a bump in your marketing budget? 

 

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2 hours ago, XPRO said:

Little bit of Ineos hate going on in Belgium if anyone cares. Apparently all their vehicles were damaged/vandalized last night.... Ineos Grenadiers has confirmed that six of their vehicles were vandalised, including a race car and a team bus, with the words “Ineos will fall” painted on the side.  The damage is believed to be an protest linked to the Ineos Will Fall campaign group, which opposes the environmental impact of chemical company Ineos, which sponsors the cycling team. Not sailing but thought I would bring it forward....

 

 

 

Sometimes I think there can't be more stupidity on Earth. And I always stand corrected.

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On 12/19/2020 at 10:21 AM, Indio said:

Iain Percy would have been my pick to run the Ineos AC Challenge, with Sir Ben concentrating on co-ordinating the design and sailing team.

We know the hydrodynamics drag of the hull matches the ETNZ from the light air displacement race. 

we also know that the top speed is there. 

we know they struggle to get foiling and they struggle through manoeuvres..eg at low speed, really all the same problem. 

Its clearly a screw up as they haven't optomised the boat for these conditions. I wouldn't of guessed how much time you can loose through manoeuvres. 

 The boat might not be that far away.  Are they allowed to reshape old foils? 

 Can they improve the sail shape at low speed.. 

Can the improve foil control in these conditions, do they need more flap authority. 

The risk is always you fix this problem, and reduce your top speed. You then get a week of sailing in heavy wind and your just as screwed. 

 

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12 hours ago, dogwatch said:

He manhandled the photographer, certainly was threatening, certainly unacceptable behaviour. But no evidence of a punch, let alone a "sucker punch". How, come to that, could you jump off a boat, climb on another and deliver a "sucker punch" (an unexpected punch or blow.). Unexpected would have kind of evaporated at the point an obviously furious sailor was climbing aboard. SA does love to exaggerate, layer on layer.

I stand corrected.  I probably read an exaggerated headline as it was widely described as a punching.  But this is IRRELEVANT to the point I was making.

If he "manhandled" his staff like he treated that photographer, the morale effect would be identical.

Love how people like to sharpshoot a point within an argument to try to discredit its conclusion.

This is a distinction without a difference as a lawyer would say.   You might want to look up the "logical fallacies"

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Now something I was pondering. In the abandoned race between INEOS and TR the Brit boat seemed to be faster in displacement mode meaning to my mind the hull was better for getting speed up before lifting. If I am right does this point to the hull design being ok and its issues lie elsewhere?

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4 minutes ago, Laurence said:

We know the hydrodynamics drag of the hull matches the ETNZ from the light air displacement race. 

we also know that the top speed is there. 

we know they struggle to get foiling and they struggle through manoeuvres..eg at low speed, really all the same problem. 

Its clearly a screw up as they haven't optomised the boat for these conditions. I wouldn't of guessed how much time you can loose through manoeuvres. 

 The boat might not be that far away.... 

 

In my opinion the answer is given in Post # 5410 from our Italian friends who are describing a big portion of the problem. Difficult for me to explain in short but I had been there with my Moth sailing and a real expert brought wonders to my boat, working hard on the set up and tuning both centerboard foil and rudderfoil to work in harmony. Before either one was creating drag when trying to race the boat by constantly working on the adjustments. After the boat had been given back to me, it all felt light and easy going. It is an all new technique even for the very best and I think they should have employed Goodison. 

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24 minutes ago, dullers said:

Now something I was pondering. In the abandoned race between INEOS and TR the Brit boat seemed to be faster in displacement mode meaning to my mind the hull was better for getting speed up before lifting. If I am right does this point to the hull design being ok and its issues lie elsewhere?

So INEOS designed the sweet spot for displacement sailing in under 6 knots.......genius :ph34r:

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48 minutes ago, dullers said:

Now something I was pondering. In the abandoned race between INEOS and TR the Brit boat seemed to be faster in displacement mode meaning to my mind the hull was better for getting speed up before lifting. If I am right does this point to the hull design being ok and its issues lie elsewhere?

I thought this was a race where the idea was for the hull to never touch the water, and primarily act as an aero element to have as low drag to max power factor as possible. Wile yes take of is a factor if you have the right engine and gearbox (sails and control)this is not a problem. This team sadly have not understood aero drag you just have to look at there cockpits to see that as well as many other small bits. Just stick your finger out of the car window at 30 mph and feel the force on something so small, then multiply that by a thousand and you start to understand there drag penalty compared to say Prada. Just look at the runners Prada took off that might add up to over a square Meter of surface area in drag reduction. I will say the first 20 feet of the boat look nice though although I would have softened the hard corners. Hard corners are a reduction in area but more likely to create turbulence that is induced drag, so you might want them on the hull chine to lock in air and water but not on the deck chine were you want the wind to join the sails from the hull cleanly. 

Off topic but it might be worth the aero penalty for them to cut some powerboat cutouts in the keel /skeg to help unstick the bottom of the keel, in take off.

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46 minutes ago, Finnfart said:

Love how people like to sharpshoot a point within an argument to try to discredit its conclusion.

I said nothing about your conclusion, one way or the other. 

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1 hour ago, uflux said:

So INEOS designed the sweet spot for displacement sailing in under 6 knots.......genius :ph34r:

You added greatly to my understanding.

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2 hours ago, jaysper said:

Yeah I get that they quoted Greenie credentials, but why suddenly now? The EU has its panties in a bunch over Brexit with Belgium being the epicentre of that ill feeling

Hence I am wondering if there is a deeper underlying cause.

XR and others are alive and well, lots of pissed of people, plenty to protest about.  Nothing to do with EU.

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1 hour ago, uflux said:

So INEOS designed the sweet spot for displacement sailing in under 6 knots.......genius :ph34r:

Sirena's comment about lowering the wind limit to 4 knots to help Ben out was classic.:lol:

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4 hours ago, RMac said:

Yeah that and regions where you can open your faucet, strike a match and enjoy a free light show.  

 

I hope you are not in charge of anything important.

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3 hours ago, Finnfart said:

I stand corrected.  I probably read an exaggerated headline as it was widely described as a punching.  But this is IRRELEVANT to the point I was making.

If he "manhandled" his staff like he treated that photographer, the morale effect would be identical.

Love how people like to sharpshoot a point within an argument to try to discredit its conclusion.

This is a distinction without a difference as a lawyer would say.   You might want to look up the "logical fallacies"

The key word is “If”  so it’s pretty easy to discredit what you are suggesting ref his staff as you provided nothing it guess work. To what end? 

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28 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

The key word is “If”  so it’s pretty easy to discredit what you are suggesting ref his staff as you provided nothing it guess work. To what end? 

He used the conditional, so why do you say Finnfart  discredits ?

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5 hours ago, DavidYacht said:

Didn’t end well for Alan Bond

Yes but what a life....

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4 hours ago, dullers said:

Now something I was pondering. In the abandoned race between INEOS and TR the Brit boat seemed to be faster in displacement mode meaning to my mind the hull was better for getting speed up before lifting. If I am right does this point to the hull design being ok and its issues lie elsewhere?

In short yes, the hull is doing what is should be doing. I think the two Italian guys theory about angles of attack on the foils could be correct. Which would be an easy fix. In a straight line Ineos is not slow, they have a problem with low speed foiling. Present evidence means it’s a bit early to write off Ineos yet. 
 

also whats abundantly clear is the helmsman play a crucial part, being in the right place at the right time is paramount 

 

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The light wind "Eagle wing" foils they didn't use. They used them throughout October, then used a combo of these and the foils used in the Xmas R during November.

Boats need to be measured in 5 days before the race start and apparently, 2 days are needed to change them, so was the forecast 7 days out giving sea breezes developing.

 

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7 hours ago, jaysper said:

He certainly might be. Def better than Barker and Spithill IMO and could be better Burling too for all I know.

However, that won't save him from a dog boat. 

The only forward planning required.

Screenshot_20201223-111945_Chrome.jpg

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3 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

The only forward planning required.

Screenshot_20201223-111945_Chrome.jpg

Ouch!

Assuming this cup goes down like it is looking for Ben, I cannot see him getting another shot at the cup. Certainly not as syndicate head anyway.

I was reading somewhere yesterday that he inked a 2 cup cycle deal with INEOS, but I would imagine that it would have some form of out clause for non-performance.

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6 hours ago, dogwatch said:

I said nothing about your conclusion, one way or the other. 

The purpose of the logical fallacy known as sharpshooting is to undermine one of many premises in order to discredit the conclusion.

if it wasn't your intention, it was your result.

And why?   to try to say that BA is a slightly nicer asshole?

Sorry, I don't buy it.  Again, this is a distinction about a difference.  One  that is somewhat uncomfortable for the Brits that want to support their hero and  brilliant sailor who like the rest of us is a flawed human... and manager in this case.

IMHO.

 

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3 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

It’s conjecture 

EXACTLY.    Its fucking conjecture!   Is this news here?

We are trying to make sense of a crazy situation based on what we know about the situation and the players.

I have some 'insight' into the players.  I use it to conjecture how this could lead to the indeputable clusterfuck.

Use your discernment to see if my data supports my point.

So back to the point....  does someone "manhandling" a photographer during the parade home to collect medals sound like a level headed manager?

If you want to be rational... dispute whether level headed manager is useful in the design room of an AC campaign.  But we know the guy can blow his wig when inappropriate.  IF that happens in the management context... it is poison.

You do the math.

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1 hour ago, FinnFish said:

The only forward planning required.

Screenshot_20201223-111945_Chrome.jpg

Is this a economy seat ?? Surely a windsurfer and packed lunch is all he needs. Maybe he can meet up with Alex Thomson another loser with a history of poor performance. They could have a competition to see who is the bigger loser and pissed the most  British sponsorship money down  the Kaiser, 

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^ bit harsh that. One of the two is relatable, informative, and does a massive amount to help promote his long-time sponsor

And I'm pretty sure its not British sponsorship money funding his campaign.

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7 minutes ago, MrBump said:

^ bit harsh that. One of the two is relatable, informative, and does a massive amount to help promote his long-time sponsor

And I'm pretty sure its not British sponsorship money funding his campaign.

Being harsh is a specialty of this place and winding other people up

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29 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Being harsh is a specialty of this place and winding other people up

Ramen!

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

Is this a economy seat ?? Surely a windsurfer and packed lunch is all he needs. Maybe he can meet up with Alex Thomson another loser with a history of poor performance. They could have a competition to see who is the bigger loser and pissed the most  British sponsorship money down  the Kaiser, 

 

images (4).jpeg

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3 hours ago, FinnFish said:

The only forward planning required.

Screenshot_20201223-111945_Chrome.jpg

Gonna be a lot more than that. Benny hasn't sat in economy for a long time.

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