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Ineos boats are back in England

from https://rule69.blog/2021/11/14/carbon-cluedo/

The other thing that a northerly breeze brings is news filtering across from Southampton Water, more specifically from Southampton Docks. Look closely amidst the cars and cargo being unloaded and there’s two rather nice pieces of carbon in the form of AC75’s sitting dockside at the Associated British Ports Terminal. Yes, the Ineos boats – both of them – are back in Britain having been shipped from New Zealand.

(contd) 

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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Magnus Wheatley confirmes that the two INEOS Boats Britannia 1 & 2 are back in the UK.

The Teams Old Portsmouth Base are now being used apparently to built Submarines.

You mean when they aren't building F1 cars?

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1 minute ago, pusslicker said:

You mean when they aren't building F1 cars?

The Bottom Line is: I WAS RIGHT!

The Old Portsmouth Base ain't going to be used to built INEOS' Britannia AC37 Boat.

That Boat is either going to be built at Carrington again or at temporary facility near Brackley, UK.

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6 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Midget submarines. Park them just upwind of the start line and torpedo their opposition. Probably the only way they’re going to win anything lol.

On a weekend where NZ sport didn’t cover itself in glory that’s pretty punchy.. 

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23 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

On a weekend where NZ sport didn’t cover itself in glory that’s pretty punchy.. 

Meh, one weekend. One game.

Try doing that Eden Park and I guarantee they get destroyed, as they always do.

 

 

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5 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

On a weekend where NZ sport didn’t cover itself in glory that’s pretty punchy.. 

Be fair, they have a chance to redeem themselves in some of the sporting events coming up, which are either bigger or more relevant to this forum

F1 championship completion

Winter Olympic games

SailGP season 2 completion

Football world cup

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21 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Ineos boats are back in England

from https://rule69.blog/2021/11/14/carbon-cluedo/

The other thing that a northerly breeze brings is news filtering across from Southampton Water, more specifically from Southampton Docks. Look closely amidst the cars and cargo being unloaded and there’s two rather nice pieces of carbon in the form of AC75’s sitting dockside at the Associated British Ports Terminal. Yes, the Ineos boats – both of them – are back in Britain having been shipped from New Zealand.

(contd) 

"rather nice" is a bit rich considering the first one was essentially a barge, and the second was a shitter.

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8 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Just wondering if the T20 was one of those “ we did win it really” things? Like the one day 50 overs  WC. 
 

 

Test cricket is where its at.

T20 is just a made for TV smash fest.

Test cricket is a game of chess on a cricket pitch.

Test cricket is the AC, the pinnacle, the T20 is the SailGP of cricket, the smash n bash made for TV entertainment for those who don't have the attention span to understand the real game.

 

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6 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Be fair, they have a chance to redeem themselves in some of the sporting events coming up, which are either bigger or more relevant to this forum

F1 championship completion

Winter Olympic games

SailGP season 2 completion

Football world cup

Ah well.... not much to look forward to, from that line-up. ;-)

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6 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Be fair, they have a chance to redeem themselves in some of the sporting events coming up, which are either bigger or more relevant to this forum

F1 championship completion

Winter Olympic games

SailGP season 2 completion

Football world cup

“SailGP season 2 completion” lol like anyone cares.

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34 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Ah well.... not much to look forward to, from that line-up. ;-)

Well when your country only does 3 sports and you lose in 2 (both men and women in rugby and cricket) and 2/3 (sail gp and Olympic sailing), what do you expect?

We still have hopes in all those (though admittedly those in football will be smashed into pieces once the tournament starts, probably by Germany). 

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Test cricket is where its at.

T20 is just a made for TV smash fest.

Test cricket is a game of chess on a cricket pitch.

Test cricket is the AC, the pinnacle, the T20 is the SailGP of cricket, the smash n bash made for TV entertainment for those who don't have the attention span to understand the real game.

 

The AC like test cricket? :lol:

The present event is the T20 without the crowds. A built for TV circus, sailing for the masses trying to emulate all the Red Bull shows without the excitement.

Test cricket, you really are a dickhead.

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1 minute ago, Gissie said:

The AC like test cricket? :lol:

The present event is the T20 without the crowds. A built for TV circus, sailing for the masses trying to emulate all the Red Bull shows without the excitement.

Test cricket, you really are a dickhead.

Test cricket is the most pure form of the game. Just like a test match in rugby is always the better form of the game. T20 is nothing but entertainment. It’s a batsman’s game. Go out there and smash as hard as you can for as long as you can and get as many runs as you can. There’s no strategy, it’s just aim for the boundary all day long.

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Just now, Forourselves said:

Test cricket is the most pure form of the game. Just like a test match in rugby is always the better form of the game. T20 is nothing but entertainment. It’s a batsman’s game. Go out there and smash as hard as you can for as long as you can and get as many runs as you can. There’s no strategy, it’s just aim for the boundary all day long.

Pretty much summed up most of the last AC. :lol:

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45 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Well when your country only does 3 sports and you lose in 2 (both men and women in rugby and cricket) and 2/3 (sail gp and Olympic sailing), what do you expect?

We still have hopes in all those (though admittedly those in football will be smashed into pieces once the tournament starts, probably by Germany). 

Our provenance in F1 is fine thanks.

We have Winter Olympians too.

Football? Lol...

 

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12 minutes ago, Gissie said:

The AC like test cricket? :lol:

The present event is the T20 without the crowds. A built for TV circus, sailing for the masses trying to emulate all the Red Bull shows without the excitement.

Test cricket, you really are a dickhead.

It’s a comparison moron. SailGP is the T20 of cricket. People love watching batsmen smash in T20 because it’s exciting. It’s a very basic concept. SailGP is a very basic concept. The teams turn up, race for 2 days, Fast boats, thrills, spills and crashes. Very basic principles. Test match cricket is strategic, as is the AC. Is chess and checkers.

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7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

It’s a comparison moron. SailGP is the T20 of cricket. People love watching batsmen smash in T20 because it’s exciting. It’s a very basic concept. SailGP is a very basic concept. The teams turn up, race for 2 days, Fast boats, thrills, spills and crashes. Very basic principles. Test match cricket is strategic, as is the AC. Is chess and checkers.

And your comparison is wrong. The only big difference between AC and SailGP is it isn't held as often. Although, for the right amount of money (calling Red Bull) that could easily be changed.

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26 minutes ago, Gissie said:

And your comparison is wrong. The only big difference between AC and SailGP is it isn't held as often. Although, for the right amount of money (calling Red Bull) that could easily be changed.

So the fact that one is governed by an over 150 year old document requiring mutual consent, versus the other which is governed by Russell Coutts vision to “redefine sailing” isn’t a “big difference”?

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38 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

So the fact that one is governed by an over 150 year old document requiring mutual consent, versus the other which is governed by Russell Coutts vision to “redefine sailing” isn’t a “big difference”?

To be clear, the Deed of Gift dates to 1887, so it is 134 years old.

It also does not require mutual consent:

"The Club challenging for the Cup and the Club holding the same may by mutual consent make any arrangement satisfactory to both as to the dates, courses, number of trials, rules and sailing regulations, and any and all other conditions of the match, in which case also the ten months’ notice may be waived.

In case the parties cannot mutually agree upon the terms of a match, then three races shall be sailed, and the winner of two of such races shall be entitled to the Cup. All such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands, as follows: the first race, twenty nautical miles to windward and return; the second race, an equilateral triangular race of thirty-nine nautical miles, the first side of which shall be a beat to windward; the third race, (if necessary), twenty nautical miles to windward and return; and one week day shall intervene between the conclusion of one race and the starting of the next race. These ocean courses shall be practicable in all parts for vessels of twenty-two feet draught of water and shall be selected by the Club holding the Cup; and these races shall be sailed subject to its rules and sailing regulations so far as the same do not conflict with the provisions of this deed of gift, but without any time allowances whatever. The challenged Club shall not be required to name its representative vessel until at the time agreed upon for the start, but the vessel when named must compete in all the races; and each of such races must be completed within seven hours."

 

The operative term here is "may." "May" is permissive not obligatory.

The second paragraph says how the Match is to be sailed when mutual consent is not reached.

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

And the one before that, and the one before that. Is what it is. Apparently that’s what the masses want so that’s what they get.

Actually, it has fuck all to do with the masses.

 

3 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Well when your country only does 3 sports and you lose in 2 (both men and women in rugby and cricket) and 2/3 (sail gp and Olympic sailing), what do you expect?

We still have hopes in all those (though admittedly those in football will be smashed into pieces once the tournament starts, probably by Germany). 

Ah well, like, Sig. Patrizio Bertelli, at least you've got almost close a few times.  Where's, Pickles when you need him, eh?

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

So the fact that one is governed by an over 150 year old document requiring mutual consent, versus the other which is governed by Russell Coutts vision to “redefine sailing” isn’t a “big difference”?

The fact it is governed by an old deed does nothing to stop it being the same as SailGP. Just shows how badly the modern holders have changed what was once the pinnacle of sailing. One that was all about the race and bragging rights in the rich boys bar.

Now it is all bread and circuses for the masses. Short, bounce the boundary idiocy. All to try and make it pay for itself.

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21 minutes ago, Gissie said:

The fact it is governed by an old deed does nothing to stop it being the same as SailGP. Just shows how badly the modern holders have changed what was once the pinnacle of sailing. One that was all about the race and bragging rights in the rich boys bar.

Now it is all bread and circuses for the masses. Short, bounce the boundary idiocy. All to try and make it pay for itself.

The old boys bar was never going to last forever. The old boys were getting older and older, greyer and greyer, fatter and fatter while the young sailors were blasting around in 49er skiffs and Nacra 17’s. The event needed to change, and it has.

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12 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The old boys bar was never going to last forever. The old boys were getting older and older, greyer and greyer, fatter and fatter while the young sailors were blasting around in 49er skiffs and Nacra 17’s. The event needed to change, and it has.

Yet these older, greyer and fatter rich boys are still sailing. They just race TP52's, J class etc. Not for them the masses and McDonald's sponsorship. They don't need it, they can pay for their own fun and stay fairly private with it.

Unlike the team, which has been forced to whore the event out to anyone prepared to cough up enough dough. Although there seem to be very few takers.

As for the young sailors zapping around, when they have the money to fund a race boat get back to me. Until then they are just hired hands out to make a buck.

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2 hours ago, Gissie said:

Yet these older, greyer and fatter rich boys are still sailing. They just race TP52's, J class etc. Not for them the masses and McDonald's sponsorship. They don't need it, they can pay for their own fun and stay fairly private with it.

Unlike the team, which has been forced to whore the event out to anyone prepared to cough up enough dough. Although there seem to be very few takers.

As for the young sailors zapping around, when they have the money to fund a race boat get back to me. Until then they are just hired hands out to make a buck.

Good for them. But the J's and TP52's as graceful as they are, are dinosaurs. Old technology, slow boring racers. Sailing is now about speed and excitement.

Thats just the way it is.

Personally, I'd like to see an evolution of the IACC, or even 100 foot keel boats racing in the AC, but foiling is where the sport is right now. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Good for them. But the J's and TP52's as graceful as they are, are dinosaurs. Old technology, slow boring racers. Sailing is now about speed and excitement.

Thats just the way it is.

Personally, I'd like to see an evolution of the IACC, or even 100 foot keel boats racing in the AC, but foiling is where the sport is right now because that is where the team has driven it.

 

FIFY

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12 minutes ago, Gissie said:

FIFY

If not this team, another team would've introduced foiling. Its just the way sport is. It evolves.

Cricket has evolved from a game of strategy, over a 4 day period, to smash n bash over a 20 over innings.

Rugby has evolved from a game played on a winters afternoon to a sport who's season now starts mid summer and runs through to the end of year tour in November.

It is what it is. Sport evolves, sailing is no different.

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27 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

If not this team, another team would've introduced foiling. Its just the way sport is. It evolves.

Cricket has evolved from a game of strategy, over a 4 day period, to smash n bash over a 20 over innings.

Rugby has evolved from a game played on a winters afternoon to a sport who's season now starts mid summer and runs through to the end of year tour in November.

It is what it is. Sport evolves, sailing is no different.

So now you are saying the AC has evolved into T20 after all? :lol:

You really need to put more effort into keeping your bullshit straight.

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6 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Really? Who?

Provenance? McLaren, Amon, Hulme... one of which birthed one of the greatest F1 teams in recent history (you're welcome).

For drivers it's a brutal game, Hartley has likely had his shot, hopefully Liam Lawson will get a good one soon. Failing that there's worse people to be than another Scott Dixon. :-)

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Really. I must be doing that wrong too. Bugger.

Lol The pointy end of the sport is all about speed and excitement.

Probably why most of us, if not all of us in here are here and not enjoying the spoils of the AC like GD is.

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

So now you are saying the AC has evolved into T20 after all? :lol:

You really need to put more effort into keeping your bullshit straight.

In some ways yes, it has. Though it still retains its core governing principles which prevent it from evolving as far as SailGP has.

It is still governed by a document which has remained largely unscathed since its inception in 1851.

SailGP is run by one man, who makes decisions for every single team in the competition, and who at the drop of a hat, can change what ever he wants, when ever he wants. 

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3 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Provenance? McLaren, Amon, Hulme... one of which birthed one of the greatest F1 teams in recent history (you're welcome).

For drivers it's a brutal game, Hartley has likely had his shot, hopefully Liam Lawson will get a good one soon. Failing that there's worse people to be than another Scott Dixon. :-)

McClaren? Which never won a title until a Brit took it over? Run from Woking, England 

So no NZ involvement at all in current F1, apart (almost inevitably) from the Kiwi who serves the drinks In the VIP drivers club lounge at Silverstone. And no chances of winning the driver's title since 1967.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

McClaren? Which never won a title until a Brit took it over? Run from Woking, England 

So no NZ involvement at all in current F1, apart (almost inevitably) from the Kiwi who serves the drinks In the VIP drivers club lounge at Silverstone. And no chances of winning the driver's title since 1967.

 

 

Not that you care about F1 right? I mean especially since they're holding an event in Saudi Arabia right? 

Hypocrite.

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1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

McClaren? Which never won a title until a Brit took it over? Run from Woking, England 

So no NZ involvement at all in current F1, apart (almost inevitably) from the Kiwi who serves the drinks In the VIP drivers club lounge at Silverstone. And no chances of winning the driver's title since 1967.

You know every face in every F1 team!? Impressive stuff.

FYI location of building does not determine nationality of constructor. McLaren is indeed certified by an English club though. You have a kiwi to thank for it, just like you have the Germans to thank for Mercedes, a German constructor who happens to be based in England.

Anyway there's one prize in sport the Brits excel at, reliable if not perennial under achievers . Shame...

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

In some ways yes, it has. Though it still retains its core governing principles which prevent it from evolving as far as SailGP has.

It is still governed by a document which has remained largely unscathed since its inception in 1851.

SailGP is run by one man, who makes decisions for every single team in the competition, and who at the drop of a hat, can change what ever he wants, when ever he wants. 

But the governing document can mean whatever mc decides, as you continually bleat on about. So there is nothing stopping it becoming SailGP with a new name.

At present they are just using a different boat and forcing teams to join in or don't get to play the big game.

Seems if is all being run by one man, Lord Dalts. He just wishes he had the money of Lord Ellison.

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30 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Anyway there's one prize in sport the Brits excel at, reliable if not perennial under achievers . Shame...

Really? That the best you can do,

  • Only country to have won world cups in all of the biggest 3 world team sports (football, rugby & cricket)
  • 4th, 2nd and 3rd in medal tables for last 3 Olympics- Most successful country at Olympic sailing (last time and all-time)
  • More F1 driver titles than any other country (including 6 of the last 10)
  • 6 of the last 10 Tour De France winners

Those are the largest sporting events in the world (excluding Asian Games where it is true we have had little success).

Some under-achievers

 

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56 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Really? That the best you can do,

  • Only country to have won world cups in all of the biggest 3 world team sports (football, rugby & cricket)
  • 4th, 2nd and 3rd in medal tables for last 3 Olympics- Most successful country at Olympic sailing (last time and all-time)
  • More F1 driver titles than any other country (including 6 of the last 10)
  • 6 of the last 10 Tour De France winners

Those are the largest sporting events in the world (excluding Asian Games where it is true we have had little success).

Some under-achievers

 

LOL

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19 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

A couple of councillors are disappointed. Though the council gets a higher rent now. And they get some 'ship-building' back. I've had more backlash from a seat-belt pre-tensioner

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39 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

A couple of councillors are disappointed. Though the council gets a higher rent now. And they get some 'ship-building' back. I've had more backlash from a seat-belt pre-tensioner

Your problem is you don't use enough exclamation points!! You need to raise your game to stress the urgency of this!!!!

(irony font, in case that wasn't obvious)

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7 minutes ago, accnick said:

Your problem is you don't use enough exclamation points!! You need to raise your game to stress the urgency of this!!!!

(irony font, in case that wasn't obvious)

!Not! !At! !All! Obvious!. 

!!!!Sorry!!!

I think perhaps I need to set my font permanently to sarcastic. Or piss-take if there is a dedicated colour. Especially when there is a whole lot of nothing going on.

Still, at least we have the excitement of the protocol announcement later {please select your preferred colour)

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BAR got public subsidy for the monstrous building, out of scale for the site, and has now buggered off. There's nothing to be done about it but next time BA and friends are looking for favours from the public sector, they may find what goes around, comes around.

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So they employ over 100 people there through 1851 and BAR applied technologies and have it on the ever so bloody Likely  shortlist for where the sailing team will operate from when the new boat is built. They pay 110k per year rent on it, also something they were not doing when they were based there. 
 

and a councillor is “disappointed…” 

boo fucking hoo. 
 

 

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8 hours ago, Gissie said:

But the governing document can mean whatever mc decides, as you continually bleat on about. So there is nothing stopping it becoming SailGP with a new name.

At present they are just using a different boat and forcing teams to join in or don't get to play the big game.

Seems if is all being run by one man, Lord Dalts. He just wishes he had the money of Lord Ellison.

There are aspects of the DoG that take precedence over the protocol.

The most fundamental being validity of the CoR and MC.

Without those two fundamentals, there is no protocol.

Mutual consent, as we saw in Auckland, can be critical in deciding factors.

Coutts can decide what ever he wants for any team at any time.

 

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9 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

McClaren? Which never won a title until a Brit took it over? Run from Woking, England 

So no NZ involvement at all in current F1, apart (almost inevitably) from the Kiwi who serves the drinks In the VIP drivers club lounge at Silverstone. And no chances of winning the driver's title since 1967.

 

 

They never won a title until an American took over you mean?

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15 hours ago, Forourselves said:

 But the J's and TP52's as graceful as they are, are dinosaurs. Old technology, slow boring racers. Sailing is now about speed and excitement.

 

 

You need tell that to the 99% of sailors who are out every weekend and Wednesday and Friday night. Also best tell Sharon Green, Gilles Martin, Beken of Cowes, etc. You should also tell the dozen or more teams that challenged in 2000, 2003 and 2007 in monohulls and the hundreds of thousands of spectators who visited Auckland and Valencia. None of them have received the memo about what "sailing is now".

Foiling is fun to watch and exciting for the youngsters; a bit like BMX biking or freestyle snowboarding I suppose. However, you don't see many thoughtful grown ups doing this.

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13 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

You need tell that to the 99% of sailors who are out every weekend and Wednesday and Friday night. Also best tell Sharon Green, Gilles Martin, Beken of Cowes, etc. You should also tell the dozen or more teams that challenged in 2000, 2003 and 2007 in monohulls and the hundreds of thousands of spectators who visited Auckland and Valencia. None of them have received the memo about what "sailing is now".

Foiling is fun to watch and exciting for the youngsters; a bit like BMX biking or freestyle snowboarding I suppose. However, you don't see many thoughtful grown ups doing this.

No I don’t. They compete in the RC44, TP52 and Maxi Yacht Cup. There’s no need for them to compete in the AC anymore.

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On 11/16/2021 at 2:22 PM, SF Woody Sailor said:

Foiling is fun to watch and exciting for the youngsters; a bit like BMX biking or freestyle snowboarding I suppose. However, you don't see many thoughtful grown ups doing this.

Agreed, the current AC is not yacht racing. 

It is absurd to pretend that the Dalton (or Ellison) versions of the cup are somehow hewed to the grand tradition of the DoG because they occasionally use mutual consent when convenient, while using bicyclists, hydraulic motors, mandatory OD parts and chase boats, and host the event wherever in the world it suits them or will pay the bill. The Americas Cup and Sail GP are fundamentally the same concept and it’s not Americas Cup match racing of yachts.

They should just call the AC37 protocol the Deed of Dalton and get on with it.

I wish the rich fuckers in NY would spend the world to win it back in these foiling speedboats, write the $20m check, and then design a TP52-ish boat for a future cup.

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1 minute ago, JALhazmat said:

Clinker built hulls and canvas sails for you eh? Jog on 

Actually you know what? If it’s all about sponsorships and TV and you want the general public to watch the America’s Cup? Do it in Viking longships. Get a few Scandinavian teams in there. Hell, even I would rather watch that than the same four outfits doing AC36 again but in Ireland. 2C4A5E2A-5C26-4AE2-B1CE-E773811CD402.gif.256b7a0f0730b0df50ad1725e71040e3.gif

But no, not clinker built and canvas. A modern displacement yacht would be nice.

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2 hours ago, loneshark64 said:

I wish the rich fuckers in NY would spend the world to win it back in these foiling speedboats, write the $20m check, and then design a TP52-ish boat for a future cup.

There is no check in the world big enough to beat Ineos/Mercedes this time around. Here is how it must work: RYS win wherever it is. As they cross the line in the last race in 2024 NYYC hands in its hip pocket challenge. NYYC must then try to win the next one in Cowes 2027 which one hopes will be sailed in something like a 70ish version of a TP52.

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19 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

There is no check in the world big enough to beat Ineos/Mercedes this time around. Here is how it must work: RYS win wherever it is. As they cross the line in the last race in 2024 NYYC hands in its hip pocket challenge. NYYC must then try to win the next one in Cowes 2027 which one hopes will be sailed in something like a 70ish version of a TP52.

Excellent….

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Here is the way I figure it:

The Mercedes AMG/Petronas Formula 1 team has a staff of around 1500. Due to the 2022 funding cap they cannot keep them all however they don’t want to lose the talent.

During the recent video Allison (new Ineos CTO from Mercedes) said if a Formula 1 team looked at a challenge on the scale of an America’s Cup they would probably put about 500 people on it (as opposed to the 100 or so at most well-funded Cup teams). So let’s say Mercedes F1 “lease” 200 staff to Ineos AC. If you listen to Allison he identified the following ways that Mercedes has expertise to offer. This is in addition to the CFD supercomputers and wind tunnels which can be used to optimize wings and aero (I know, I know, they don’t apply to the foils).

The physic models which in turn lead to the designs which in turn leads into manufacturing (who does better carbon fabrication and quality control?) which in turn needs a logistics system to deliver each part to the right place at the right time. A commercial system and a marketing system. Rules and regulations compliance (as he put it, a big old book full of opportunities).

On top of that, management. The coordination of all of these elements against the time constraints. I think the complexity is underestimated by many on this board. The project management and resource allocation required of a team on this scale is a very, very complex matter. It is far beyond Sir Ben and a few mates sitting around a white board.

He didn't say it, but I would add: hydraulics, control systems, computer systems and simulations, telemetry systems, the analysis of telemetry data and much more. These are all areas where there is potential crossover.

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45 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

There is no check in the world big enough to beat Ineos/Mercedes this time around. Here is how it must work: RYS win wherever it is. As they cross the line in the last race in 2024 NYYC hands in its hip pocket challenge. NYYC must then try to win the next one in Cowes 2027 which one hopes will be sailed in something like a 70ish version of a TP52.

At which point Ineos presumably says no, we agreed it to be AC67.5s. Assuming no-one else has given a challenge which is more acceptable to Ineos, if they refuse to accept a Tp70 we would presumably get. DoG match, in 90 foot foilers (probably multihull because of the offshore course). That would be fun

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52 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Here is the way I figure it:

The Mercedes AMG/Petronas Formula 1 team has a staff of around 1500. Due to the 2022 funding cap they cannot keep them all however they don’t want to lose the talent.

During the recent video Allison (new Ineos CTO from Mercedes) said if a Formula 1 team looked at a challenge on the scale of an America’s Cup they would probably put about 500 people on it (as opposed to the 100 or so at most well-funded Cup teams). So let’s say Mercedes F1 “lease” 200 staff to Ineos AC. If you listen to Allison he identified the following ways that Mercedes has expertise to offer. This is in addition to the CFD supercomputers and wind tunnels which can be used to optimize wings and aero (I know, I know, they don’t apply to the foils).

The physic models which in turn lead to the designs which in turn leads into manufacturing (who does better carbon fabrication and quality control?) which in turn needs a logistics system to deliver each part to the right place at the right time. A commercial system and a marketing system. Rules and regulations compliance (as he put it, a big old book full of opportunities).

On top of that, management. The coordination of all of these elements against the time constraints. I think the complexity is underestimated by many on this board. The project management and resource allocation required of a team on this scale is a very, very complex matter. It is far beyond Sir Ben and a few mates sitting around a white board.

He didn't say it, but I would add: hydraulics, control systems, computer systems and simulations, telemetry systems, the analysis of telemetry data and much more. These are all areas where there is potential crossover.

A good example of how they operate calculated risk in very time tight time frames was Brazil recently. Now of course Ineos can add the Grenadiers knowledge base and assets along with the All Blacks shortly.

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1 hour ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Here is the way I figure it:

The Mercedes AMG/Petronas Formula 1 team has a staff of around 1500. Due to the 2022 funding cap they cannot keep them all however they don’t want to lose the talent.

During the recent video Allison (new Ineos CTO from Mercedes) said if a Formula 1 team looked at a challenge on the scale of an America’s Cup they would probably put about 500 people on it (as opposed to the 100 or so at most well-funded Cup teams). So let’s say Mercedes F1 “lease” 200 staff to Ineos AC. If you listen to Allison he identified the following ways that Mercedes has expertise to offer. This is in addition to the CFD supercomputers and wind tunnels which can be used to optimize wings and aero (I know, I know, they don’t apply to the foils).

The physic models which in turn lead to the designs which in turn leads into manufacturing (who does better carbon fabrication and quality control?) which in turn needs a logistics system to deliver each part to the right place at the right time. A commercial system and a marketing system. Rules and regulations compliance (as he put it, a big old book full of opportunities).

On top of that, management. The coordination of all of these elements against the time constraints. I think the complexity is underestimated by many on this board. The project management and resource allocation required of a team on this scale is a very, very complex matter. It is far beyond Sir Ben and a few mates sitting around a white board.

He didn't say it, but I would add: hydraulics, control systems, computer systems and simulations, telemetry systems, the analysis of telemetry data and much more. These are all areas where there is potential crossover.

24.4 Testing limitations

No Competitor shall carry out fluid dynamic testing of designs, at any scale, in any controlled environment such as a wind tunnel, cavitation tunnel, towing tank or manoeuvring basin. Any fluid dynamic testing of designs can only be undertaken in the open air and on open water, subject to the restrictions of this Article 24.

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39 minutes ago, accnick said:

24.4 Testing limitations

No Competitor shall carry out fluid dynamic testing of designs, at any scale, in any controlled environment such as a wind tunnel, cavitation tunnel, towing tank or manoeuvring basin. Any fluid dynamic testing of designs can only be undertaken in the open air and on open water, subject to the restrictions of this Article 24.

So NZ is fairly sure they have the best software to do all the testing without anything physical needed.

It would also make it next to impossible for any new team to bother joining up as they would be starting development and fine tuning of this software.

It would look more and more like the team is asking for new challengers on the one hand, making it impossible on the other. Makes sense, less chances of losing the poisoned chalice.

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10 minutes ago, Gissie said:

So NZ is fairly sure they have the best software to do all the testing without anything physical needed.

It would also make it next to impossible for any new team to bother joining up as they would be starting development and fine tuning of this software.

It would look more and more like the team is asking for new challengers on the one hand, making it impossible on the other. Makes sense, less chances of losing the poisoned chalice.

The same happened last time, and AM signed up as a new team.

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54 minutes ago, accnick said:

24.4 Testing limitations

No Competitor shall carry out fluid dynamic testing of designs, at any scale, in any controlled environment such as a wind tunnel, cavitation tunnel, towing tank or manoeuvring basin. Any fluid dynamic testing of designs can only be undertaken in the open air and on open water, subject to the restrictions of this Article 24.

Wonder how much tank testing NZ and GB have done already?

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2 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Here is the way I figure it:

The Mercedes AMG/Petronas Formula 1 team has a staff of around 1500. Due to the 2022 funding cap they cannot keep them all however they don’t want to lose the talent.

During the recent video Allison (new Ineos CTO from Mercedes) said if a Formula 1 team looked at a challenge on the scale of an America’s Cup they would probably put about 500 people on it (as opposed to the 100 or so at most well-funded Cup teams). So let’s say Mercedes F1 “lease” 200 staff to Ineos AC. If you listen to Allison he identified the following ways that Mercedes has expertise to offer. This is in addition to the CFD supercomputers and wind tunnels which can be used to optimize wings and aero (I know, I know, they don’t apply to the foils).

The physic models which in turn lead to the designs which in turn leads into manufacturing (who does better carbon fabrication and quality control?) which in turn needs a logistics system to deliver each part to the right place at the right time. A commercial system and a marketing system. Rules and regulations compliance (as he put it, a big old book full of opportunities).

On top of that, management. The coordination of all of these elements against the time constraints. I think the complexity is underestimated by many on this board. The project management and resource allocation required of a team on this scale is a very, very complex matter. It is far beyond Sir Ben and a few mates sitting around a white board.

He didn't say it, but I would add: hydraulics, control systems, computer systems and simulations, telemetry systems, the analysis of telemetry data and much more. These are all areas where there is potential crossover.

Nice recap of what Allison (let's call him JA?) said and yes he was the most impressive character in the presser.

The possible counter arguments to how 'invincible' that all sounds include that other competitors have already proved they can produce excellent AC75s; and that the marine industry actually is a fair bit different from F1.

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1 minute ago, enigmatically2 said:

But not for the period from the finish of the last one to entry of this one

But then according to AM, INEOS and Team NZ, all teams have been kept updated as to rue changes etc, so they've all known the deal.

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57 minutes ago, accnick said:

24.4 Testing limitations

No Competitor shall carry out fluid dynamic testing of designs, at any scale, in any controlled environment such as a wind tunnel, cavitation tunnel, towing tank or manoeuvring basin. Any fluid dynamic testing of designs can only be undertaken in the open air and on open water, subject to the restrictions of this Article 24.

What if Merc develops and tests and aero piece for a "car"? 

Who's to say which business line tested something in a wind tunnel for what product?

 

Merc develops engines as a matter of its day to day business, those development $ don't/won't count towards a spending cap in F1...

They can dedicate as much staff and computational power as needed to solve an issue and it will never show up on the balance sheet of Ineos Britannia.

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12 minutes ago, Liquid said:

What if Merc develops and tests and aero piece for a "car"? 

Who's to say which business line tested something in a wind tunnel for what product?

 

Merc develops engines as a matter of its day to day business, those development $ don't/won't count towards a spending cap in F1...

They can dedicate as much staff and computational power as needed to solve an issue and it will never show up on the balance sheet of Ineos Britannia.

Is that much different from getting technology from, say, Airbus?

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