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5 hours ago, Boink said:

This was discussed long time ago, but filed under inconclusive and therefore a not interesting, as no one could establish that this wasn't one of the support boats......

Can we also just move along in general.

I am feeling Deja Vu here, where a buch of fan boys were crowing about fastest straightline speed in Bermuda, and look where it got them...... 

The teams are focusing on low take off speed, preservation of speed (in tacks and gybes), max VMG (upwind and down), and fastest straightline speed - in that order of importance, with fastest being considerably less important than the other 3 targets. (The 4th target will be sufficient if you hit your targets elsewhere)

Sorry about this but the idea of being told what can and can’t be posted in an Ineos thread by some fucking two week old sock puppet isn’t going to work for me or others

my comment that sparked birdies ire was anecdotal, but based on a real article with real quotes from real people that had actually been on the boat. 

its literally the first article from anyone that’s been on any of the boats that has dealt in specifics (in this case boat speed) and provided context for what was said.

that little streak of Bird piss saying it’s irrelevant to this topic/thread ? Fuck off. 
 

 

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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

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On 7/23/2020 at 11:12 PM, JALhazmat said:

Don’t read it, you don’t like reading what a respected sailor had to say after actually being out on an AC 75? Don’t read it. 

Once described as "having an amazing knack of not knowing what the fuck is going on" :lol::lol:

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Once described as "having an amazing knack of not knowing what the fuck is going on" :lol::lol:

Having shared a dinner with him one time and drinks another, I concur

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9 hours ago, NZK said:

Have we discussed how improved the mainsail shape is? Particularly the deck sweeping foot section? The last few stills and the RKJ video show it looking incredibly smooth compared to how it was in Sardinia and before...

I'm starting to think the Frackers may have made some big strides forward with manouvres and flight stability - if we had more footage like Weta's of ETNZ I think there'd be a lot more chatter comparing the two teams...

I noticed how quickly it snapped across and filled very nicely.

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35 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Not one seagull anywhere how the fuck are we going to bang on endlessly and extrapolate the Frackers SOG.

lil  bird says we arent allowed too as it’s irrelevant and the video isn’t for a specific purpose. 
plus the camera pans.. so seagull frame rate is utterly fucked 

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I mean... we have a British boat whose speed has been compared to a bird... And no one has asked the pertinent question?

 

African or European....

image.png.9ecdfb26da07509ea8665df97f0e4433.png

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On 7/25/2020 at 12:00 AM, Hawke said:

That's why I asked him the question.  It seems you don't understand the fundamentals of discussion - you just keep worrying about speed - is Ineos up to 44 knots yet?  BTW early on not long after launch Te Aihe passed 50 knots (from an excellent source) - since then they have been focussing on other things.

The video said 42 knots from our lord and saviour, Robin Knox-Johnston. If this is the PR speed the bigwigs are comfortable with openly flaunting then it is reasonable to assume that the actual top speed would be quite a bit higher than that. Note: offical top speed in the AC has not changed much since AC34. (47kts), and 48/49 in AC35. I expect to see something similar for AC36. What has dramatically changed is the average speed and agility throughout the course and the difference between upwind/downwind. But with the huge increase in RM and with what we now (the designers) know, it is not unreasonable, in fact it is highly likely imo that all teams will crack 50kts at some point during the campaign if they haven't done so already. I fully expect the ac75 to behave like a runaway train, once it's up to speed, it will stay there no matter what. 

 

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The on limit on these yachts is cavitation around 50knots. So they will all have very similar top speeds. In the last AC challengers series all the yachts had very similar tops speeds as well. But one ended up head and shoulders above the others for different attributes. VMG is king

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2 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

But with the huge increase in RM and with what we now (the designers) know, it is not unreasonable, in fact it is highly likely imo that all teams will crack 50kts at some point during the campaign if they haven't done so already. I fully expect the ac75 to behave like a runaway train, once it's up to speed, it will stay there no matter what. 

This.......

This is exactly the school boy analysis that has perpetually been applied around here. As if speed generating factors are in a linear development. Just apply more RM and hey Presto! FFS

Well it doesn't work like that....... As Uflux suggests and I wrote about in #1616

Yet the idiots who can't wrap their pea sized brains about why, will then use the argument that because the AC75's only have similar top speed - that AC50's must be superior because they were doing this 4 years ago....... 

It is the VMG that makes these boats so much of a step forward. 

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21 hours ago, NZK said:

Have we discussed how improved the mainsail shape is?

You must be mistaken. There were a large number of highly intelligent and equally vocal supporters here who explained to the rest of us, at some length, that their mainsail was without reproach and that no further improvement was needed or possible. 

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39 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

You must be mistaken. There were a large number of highly intelligent and equally vocal supporters here who explained to the rest of us, at some length, that their mainsail was without reproach and that no further improvement was needed or possible. 

Sorry, I haven't kept my spreadsheet updated recently (too busy counting seagull wingspans) so I had to rely on my own unreliable observations rather than the official updates from this thread...

As @The_Alchemist said, it does pop cleanly between gybes - batten development could be one of the biggest trickle-downs from this cup. Or at the very least C-Tech and a few others are having a hell of a run for this cup cycle...

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11 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Well...

 

On 7/6/2020 at 11:12 PM, barfy said:

An African seagull or a European seagull?

Well my apologies to Barfy for repeating the joke!

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27 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

The designers having said so from multiple teams? Or is that not credible enough for you? 

Bullshit, members of the teams said so before they were sailed, after sailing it some agreed that the F50 was faster. For what it's worth though. You have no PROOF.

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I have seen people say that the 75s will have better VMG, but I didn't really get it. My basic assumption is that VMG is about efficiency. The hard wing is hard to match for efficiency. So I was guessing they had some improvement in the hydrofoils. That seems plausible, especially because there are significant differences. But I don't think we have yet seen any proof. I hope the race broadcasts will provide enough telemetry to know.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Bullshit, members of the teams said so before they were sailed, after sailing it some agreed that the F50 was faster. For what it's worth though. You have no PROOF.

Ok.

but by the same standards neither do you. As there isn’t going be a race between an F50 and the new AC class so your comparisons can get fucked.

the people that actually know, that do the design and performance modelling already know. 

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6 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Ok.

but by the same standards neither do you. As there isn’t going be a race between an F50 and the new AC class so your comparisons can get fucked.

the people that actually know, that do the design and performance modelling already know. 

Actually Boink was the one making the comparison between the AC75 and the other sailbboats. He is the one claiming without proof.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Bullshit, members of the teams said so before they were sailed, after sailing it some agreed that the F50 was faster. For what it's worth though. You have no PROOF.

Where's your proof that some teams agreed that the F50s were faster?

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Actually Boink was the one making the comparison between the AC75 and the other sailbboats. He is the one claiming without proof.

Then don’t quote me wanging on about bloody proof. 

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16 hours ago, Boink said:

This.......

This is exactly the school boy analysis that has perpetually been applied around here. As if speed generating factors are in a linear development. Just apply more RM and hey Presto! FFS

Well it doesn't work like that....... As Uflux suggests and I wrote about in #1616

Yet the idiots who can't wrap their pea sized brains about why, will then use the argument that because the AC75's only have similar top speed - that AC50's must be superior because they were doing this 4 years ago....... 

It is the VMG that makes these boats so much of a step forward. 

I never said the ac50's were superior.... learn to read; I wasn't even talking about vmg.

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Until there is some revolutionary super cavitation foils design, these foiling boats (mono or cat) will be limited to top end speeds in the 50 knot range.  

The races will all be won by the team that can get it up to speed the quickest, keep it up at speed and point the closest to the gates.  

It is as simple as that, but how you do it is in the details.

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7 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

The designers having said so from multiple teams? Or is that not credible enough for you? 

Na. Troll cat thinks on his own...little bus. I reckon he's not even French, just a wanna be Quebecer.

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17 minutes ago, barfy said:

Na. Troll cat thinks on his own...little bus. I reckon he's not even French, just a wanna be Quebecer.

Why do you bother posting when most of your crap involves just weak and personal attacks? It pollutes the subjects, maybe go barf over subjects in a less-decent forum? 
 

Get a life, but somewhere else please, you spread poison as if it’s your sole mission. 

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Why do you bother posting when most of your crap involves just weak and personal attacks? It pollutes the subjects, maybe go barf over subjects in a less-decent forum? 
 

Get a life, but somewhere else please, you spread poison as if it’s your sole mission. 

You two are so cute together

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Why do you bother posting when most of your crap involves just weak and personal attacks? It pollutes the subjects, maybe go barf over subjects in a less-decent forum? 
 

Get a life, but somewhere else please, you spread poison as if it’s your sole mission. 

Careful or he'll threaten to put you on ignore again.

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10 hours ago, nroose said:

I have seen people say that the 75s will have better VMG, but I didn't really get it. My basic assumption is that VMG is about efficiency. The hard wing is hard to match for efficiency. So I was guessing they had some improvement in the hydrofoils. That seems plausible, especially because there are significant differences. But I don't think we have yet seen any proof. I hope the race broadcasts will provide enough telemetry to know.

The theory is that the AC75 foils can be canted and anhedral, allowing most of the vertical lift to come from the outboard wing and the inboard wing can be used mostly for horizontal lift. Plus the flaps mean continuous adjustment to optimise lift vectors in conjunction with main trim. I think a lot has happened in regard to playing twist in the upper section of the sail since Bermuda, which also affects RM and hence how lift form the foil is used. That may, or may not, counter the reduced efficiency of the rig. But no one here knows how efficient the twin–skin main is vs a wing (or if they do they aren't saying).

The F50s have likely moved well beyond where the AC50s were in terms of rig development, so it's not too much of a stretch to think that current AC75 sails have narrowed, if not closed, the gap on where the AC50 wings were 4 years ago.

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8 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

The races will all be won by the team that can get it up to speed the quickest, keep it up at speed and point the closest to the gates.  

It is as simple as that, but how you do it is in the details.

Isn't this how every America's Cup is won?

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3 hours ago, RobG said:

The theory is that the AC75 foils can be canted and anhedral, allowing most of the vertical lift to come from the outboard wing and the inboard wing can be used mostly for horizontal lift. Plus the flaps mean continuous adjustment to optimise lift vectors in conjunction with main trim. I think a lot has happened in regard to playing twist in the upper section of the sail since Bermuda, which also affects RM and hence how lift form the foil is used. That may, or may not, counter the reduced efficiency of the rig. But no one here knows how efficient the twin–skin main is vs a wing (or if they do they aren't saying).

The F50s have likely moved well beyond where the AC50s were in terms of rig development, so it's not too much of a stretch to think that current AC75 sails have narrowed, if not closed, the gap on where the AC50 wings were 4 years ago.

I don't think you can underestimate the value of unlimited cant angles in these boats. The AC50 was hobbled by the rule, and the entire premise of the L foil was lee coupling, which doesn't help the vmg towards the mark when powered. Dinosaurs.

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26 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

CF0A9CCD-0C16-4B3B-A59B-24156F827298.jpeg

They have maintained that stance on the condensed time frame from the very start so not sure what you are getting at? That the second boat will be different? Er yeh they all will be. 
 

or is there something in there that says it’s a heap of shit?

as for barely Sailing, they are out most days In the Solent so that seems odd? 

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The syndicate's CEO Grant Simmer has told NZME they are only sailing 'Britannia' once or twice a week during the British summer.

"We are not trying to sail every day, we are doing quite a lot of development on some of the systems on the boat but we are in the late stages of building our second boat."

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Crikey when the Frackers CEO says they spent $100 mil of Sir Jim’s ill gotten gains and got a dog let’s hope the next $100 mil produces something that is at least competitive.

This combobulated  AC has journeyed into historically uncharted waters on the sparkling Waitemata.

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On 7/27/2020 at 12:49 AM, Tornado-Cat said:

Ah, and what proof do you have that they have better vmg that the F50 ?

To place a twist on a well known actor, in a well known scene:

Proof?

You want Proof?

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE PROOF!      

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45 minutes ago, Boink said:

To place a twist on a well known actor, in a well known scene:

Proof?

You want Proof?

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE PROOF!      

mate, you are talking to a muppet.

Pepe, the king prawn

 

 

Pepe_the_King_Prawn_(Muppet).jpg

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2 hours ago, barfy said:

mate, you are talking to a muppet.

Pepe, the king prawn

 

 

Pepe_the_King_Prawn_(Muppet).jpg

I know that....

You know that.....

Everyone knows that.....

But he can barely remember what day of the week it is. Let alone who said what and why.

But unless you provide a fully indexed bibliograpgy of references Or you are one of his inner circle playing soggy biscuit - then he tries to shout down whatever clear as day finding is posted while it counters his narrative (until in a few more months he will suddenly switch position and quietly claim he had seen it all along - as per Bermuda foil farce......) And for once - I cannot believe I am saying this - I agree with #Clown Pa - I will not spoon feed the idiot information that is freely available and easy to find.........

YCMTSU

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On 7/26/2020 at 5:49 PM, Tornado-Cat said:

Ah, and what proof do you have that they have better vmg that the F50 ?

What actual not anecdotal proof do you have that they don’t? 
 

you and little bird, great at posing questions, rather short on evidence to back up the squawk 

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28 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

What actual not anecdotal proof do you have that they don’t? 
 

you and little bird, great at posing questions, rather short on evidence to back up the squawk 

I am not the one making the claim, can you understand something sometimes ?

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You and the Little  bird don’t get it do you? If you are going to say something (f50) has better vmg than a 75 then you will be challenged to provide proof that it Actually does. 
 

you can’t because

A. they haven’t raced 

B. the 50s.are evolving New wings etc

C. the current 75s aren’t even the final versions so again performance metrics are changing. 
 

the only certain thing is that multiple teams have all said that the 75s are going to be faster around the track than the fastest race boat from Bermuda. And that’s still higher performance than the F50 in terms of VMG 

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22 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

You and the Little  bird don’t get it do you? If you are going to say something (f50) has better vmg than a 75 then you will be challenged to provide proof that it Actually does. 
 

you can’t because

A. they haven’t raced 

B. the 50s.are evolving New wings etc

C. the current 75s aren’t even the final versions so again performance metrics are changing. 
 

the only certain thing is that multiple teams have all said that the 75s are going to be faster around the track than the fastest race boat from Bermuda. And that’s still higher performance than the F50 in terms of VMG 

^^ As often you don't get it.

"it is the VMG that makes these boats so much of a step forward." (boink)

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31 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:
On 7/28/2020 at 3:22 PM, JALhazmat said:

 

You and the Little  bird don’t get it do you? If you are going to say something (f50) has better vmg than a 75 then you will be challenged to provide proof that it Actually does. 
 

you can’t because

 A. they haven’t raced 

 B. the 50s.are evolving New wings etc

C. the current 75s aren’t even the final versions so again performance metrics are changing. 
 

 the only certain thing is that multiple teams have all said that the 75s are going to be faster around the track than the fastest race boat from Bermuda. And that’s still higher performance than the F50 in terms of VMG 

 

Bring the proof, and for that you need a race or a polar.

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10 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

So according to Rambling Sid Rumpole sources say B2 is in the shed and will be flown to NZ August. Which is what someone in the comments section said much earlier.

Yes, caught that too.

If they do fly just one actual hull down I’m sure a bunch of other kit from B1 will accompany it.

From the photos of the GBR base before the doors closed, did it look like it was set up for two boats?

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Yes, caught that too.

If they do fly just one actual hull down I’m sure a bunch of other kit from B1 will accompany it.

From the photos of the GBR base before the doors closed, did it look like it was set up for two boats?

They will save a few weeks breaking down the boat then reassembling if trialing it first in the Solent and don't think any team can afford to loose a day let alone a week. 

It would be amazing to see the internals with all those custom titanium additive printed parts.

The clock is really ticking now for getting these B2's up to speed, there's stuff all time left now.

Also - Gladwell said was ETNZ didn't B1 sail weekends - First time I've heard anyone doing that in a campaign especially this far in!

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^ A smart move could be to fly B2 down to NZ soon, then keep developing on the Solent until that boat is ready to launch out of the AKL base. Then maybe fly B1 down later, as insurance for just in case B2 hits Rangitoto or some other rock.. 

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

^ A smart move could be to fly B2 down to NZ soon, then keep developing on the Solent until that boat is ready to launch out of the AKL base. Then maybe fly B1 down later, as insurance for just in case B2 hits Rangitoto or some other rock.. 

There's been a couple of sinkings or thereabouts in previous editions of the AC in Auckland. Another one amongst the challengers could earn a headline or two...

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39 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

There's been a couple of sinkings or thereabouts in previous editions of the AC in Auckland. Another one amongst the challengers could earn a headline or two...

Really? 
 

There were sinkings  off SD but I don’t recall any in the HG? 

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8 hours ago, chesirecat said:

So according to Rambling Sid Rumpole sources say B2 is in the shed and will be flown to NZ August. Which is what someone in the comments section said much earlier.

Carringtons shed

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On 7/3/2020 at 8:06 AM, JALhazmat said:

Given the ETNZ leaks I wonder if RFs source has clammed up a bit? 
 

team member that lives within eye sight of the base, lives with RF ( he has said he has watched deliveries to base from home) and known each other for 20 years, shouldn’t be too hard to work out an age and identity.. Silly boy. 

Afraid not, as previously mentioned - you're not worth my time. Just giving you enough rope. As for your wildly assumptive sexism, you, my dear, can't see the wood for the trees! I don't recall stating that the backer of this team had run out of funds, simply raised the notion that no additional would be allocated.

As for your tedious tendency to claim fiction as fact, if you took a breath every now and then you might learn something. Check your "sources", you have not seen half of what you claim.

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2 hours ago, Racing Fast said:

Afraid not, as previously mentioned - you're not worth my time. Just giving you enough rope. As for your wildly assumptive sexism, you, my dear, can't see the wood for the trees! I don't recall stating that the backer of this team had run out of funds, simply raised the notion that no additional would be allocated.

As for your tedious tendency to claim fiction as fact, if you took a breath every now and then you might learn something. Check your "sources", you have not seen half of what you claim.

Aww you came back? How is your source? Been sacked yet? 

has Jim told you that funding has been capped? 
as for what I haven’t seen why don’t you share with the group?  that way you can have the satisfaction of hoisting me by my own petard.. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Racing Fast said:

Afraid not, as previously mentioned - you're not worth my time. Just giving you enough rope. As for your wildly assumptive sexism, you, my dear, can't see the wood for the trees! I don't recall stating that the backer of this team had run out of funds, simply raised the notion that no additional would be allocated.

As for your tedious tendency to claim fiction as fact, if you took a breath every now and then you might learn something. Check your "sources", you have not seen half of what you claim.

"Dude" may be a lady.  

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