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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

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When i saw Magic I was a bit disappointed. I thought we were going to see the two anglo challengers field entz / rossa B1 hybrids. Only to see ENTZ and Luna Rosa push the game forward with their B2s. 

But, seeing this, at least INEOS have pushed a concept. At least it's bold. 

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot they liked about their B1, however.  But at east they've had the self confidence to recognise it and change direction. Whether not the change in direction pays, we're yet to see. But if their last campaign was plagued by getting stuck in design trenches, then this challenge certainty isn't afraid of a break from the mould.

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2 minutes ago, Xlot said:

No way that thing is going to tack in displacement mode. This from a past Hobie Cat owner

 

I would have thought  the opposite but as an ex Tornado owner, wouldnt compare to cat, more to a 49er 

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19 minutes ago, barfy said:

You would have to say "no bulb" to those.

This whole boat seems to be a hybrid design including those wings, it’s half a T and Y 

But what are those four holes on side of the hull for ??

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I don't get it.  I thought the goal was to develop a boat that stays off the water as long as possible in all modes and manoeuvres.  This hull looks like it is designed for when it is on the water!  But....

People have discussed at length about "ground effect" - I've always felt that was a waste of time. Primarily because none of the hulls seen to date were shaped in a way that would generate ground effect.   Ground effect only develops when vortices are created between a wing's surface and the ground beneath and generate lift.  Is that what this shape does?  Even then you have to have generated speed to do it!  

If it doesn't then what's the point?  

Looking forward to some analysis from the "experts" on SA!

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On 10/15/2020 at 8:33 AM, RMac said:

So far still cautiously optimistic the Ineos boat two will still be horrendously ugly. Seeing that they went for the aesthetic choice to cover the thing in little sucker shapes like some kind of cephalopod limb is very encouraging at this stage.  

ahahah, yeah, dont worry, we're going to be ok! Oh lordy, that is ugly. Man they outdid themselves

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I don't get it.  I thought the goal was to develop a boat that stays off the water as long as possible in all modes and manoeuvres.  This hull looks like it is designed for when it is on the water!  But....

I think some of the B1 boats were slow in getting onto their foils, to be able to foil you need to be a yacht first and get up to 9 or 10 knots. There’s no point being super fast on your foils if your opponent can get on their foils way quicker than you. 

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2 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I think some of the B1 boats were slow in getting onto their foils, to be able to foil you need to be a yacht first and get up to 9 or 10 knots. There’s no point being super fast on your foils if your opponent can get on their foils way quicker than you. 

But how does this new hull shape achieve that?

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I disagree Kate. I think it would be slow on water, it is designed for foiling. Not ground effect but controlling airflow so that it end plates and smooths the aero. I think there is a lot of F1 thinking in there. They have lots of air tunnels.

 

I must admit the holes still have me flummoxed though. Are they bleeding air from above to below? 

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

But how does this new hull shape achieve that?

Ok some of the B1 boats especially AM and GB had flat bottoms with little lateral resistance. A keel is a device that produce lateral resistance. The boats can use a keel because it would drag in the water while foiling. An old design of a keel is a skeg it does the same job of producing lateral resistance. 

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The Keel shape should in theory act as a rigid wing does creating lift and possibly allowing them to initially get up on the foils early but jeez you wouldn’t want to touch and go through manoeuvres with that thing underneath.

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3 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Ok some of the B1 boats especially AM and GB had flat bottoms with little lateral resistance. A keel is a device that produce lateral resistance. The boats can use a keel because it would drag in the water while foiling. An old design of a keel is a skeg it does the same job of producing lateral resistance. 

Big trade off in extra drag though!  Plus needs to be in the water to stop lateral movement.  In my opinion the team that stays driest the longest will have the best advantage.

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Big trade off in extra drag though!  Plus needs to be in the water to stop lateral movement.  In my opinion the team that stays driest the longest will have the best advantage.

First to foil will win hands down.  Hull shape means nothing when not in the water .

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3 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

Drain the cockpit etc above maybe 

This boat also uses a bow shape in the top half similar to a imoca boat. These hulls can pierce through waves like a knife going through butter. End result water flows like crazy over the top of the hull. So water could get into cockpit area which would need draining 

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The Keel shape should in theory act as a rigid wing does creating lift and possibly allowing them to initially get up on the foils early

But even that explanation doesn't make sense.  You would need clear air to get lift and once you seem to have that then getting up on the foils follows very very quickly.

Maybe they have been listening to plane engineers too much!  Maybe the shape forces water downwards giving lift that way.

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America's Cup: British push design boundaries with radical new boat

Duncan Johnstone10:22, Oct 17 2020
 
Britannia glistens in the Auckland sun as it is launched at the base of British challenger INEOS Team UK.
INEOS TEAM UK
Britannia glistens in the Auckland sun as it is launched at the base of British challenger INEOS Team UK.

British challenger Sir Ben Ainslie has delivered on his promise to push the design boundaries, delivering a radical reincarnation of his America’s Cup boat.

The second generation AC75 Britannia was launched in Auckland on Saturday morning and featured a massive bustle keel which was totally absent on their original boat.

They have brought themselves in line with the thinking of defenders Emirates Team New Zealand and challenger of record Luna Rossa but have pushed that concept even harder.

The bustle allows easier lift-off from the water for these foiling 75-foot monohulls and also gives an ability to glance off the water surface in the event of touchdowns.

But the aim is to do dry laps completely on foils in racing and the bustle is also designed to improve aerodynamics.When the boat is foiling, the bustle closes the gap between the hull and the water surface, blocking the airflow going across the boat and increasing the efficiency of the sails.

“It looks like a rocket, let’s hope it sails like one too,” Ainslie said as the boat was christened at the team’s base.

INEOS Team UK's second AC75 Britannia is launched in Auckland, showing off its radical bustle keel.
DUNCAN JOHNSTONE/STUFF
INEOS Team UK's second AC75 Britannia is launched in Auckland, showing off its radical bustle keel.

“Taking Team New Zealand on in home waters, it doesn’t get any tougher than that in sailing, so we have got to push the boundaries and I think with this boat we have pushed it pretty bloody hard.

“I don’t think we have left much on the table and the whole team share that philosophy, that we have got to go for it if we are going to win this thing.”

 

Team INEOS UK’s New Zealand designer Nick Holroyd was clearly liberated with that philosophy with this new boat, having been disadvantage with their original concept compared to the Kiwi and Italian designers who had made up the class rule on what was and wasn’t permitted.

With their first design appearing to be off the pace, they have gambled with a major leap in boat two.

“These are big powerful boats and they are on the ragged edge and that’s always an incredibly exciting arena to work in,” Holroyd, who had assistance from the Mercedes Formula One team engineers backed by INEOS, said.

Britannia touches the water for the first time at its Auckland launch at the INEOS Team UK base.
INEOS TEAM UK
Britannia touches the water for the first time at its Auckland launch at the INEOS Team UK base.

In discussing the radical bustle keel, he said: “I guess we have taken that concept and pushed it to its logical extreme. It’s fairly extreme but I think we have taken that concept and pushed it to its limit.”

The British boat was a more radical progression than that unveiled by fellow challenger American Magic on Friday with their refined second boat Patriot whose new bustle was far more understated.

The British will undertake structural testing and look to have the boat under sail as soon as possible.

“We’ve got to race in eight weeks time, we had better be ready,” Ainslie said of the looming Christmas Cup warm-up regatta on December 17-20.

“It’s time to get the boat out there and really work it up to get maximum potential when we start racing.

“We have to be methodical in those steps, but we have to keep pushing because, for sure, the team that wins this competition will be the team that has pushed the hardest and has got the maximum potential from the boat.

“There’s that old saying that luck is preparation looking for an opportunity, and we very much subscribe to that in this team.”

Luna Rossa unveil their new boat on Tuesday, leaving Team New Zealand to complete the launchings at a date yet to be confirmed.

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20 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Cockpit drain holes as stated several times already 

Or is it a reverse F duct from F1 where the high pressure foredeck( assuming bow down attitude)  somehow vents to the underside to reduce the Vacuum downforce a diffuser would make to the stern? 
there are too many holes for a simple cockpit drain?!?

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3 minutes ago, ed__miller said:

Or is it a reverse F duct from F1 where the high pressure foredeck somehow vents to the underside to reduce the Vacuum downforce a diffuser would make to the stern? 
there are too many holes for a simple cockpit drain?!?

Lots of water in a splashdown.   The more the merrier 

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4 minutes ago, ed__miller said:

Or is it a reverse F duct from F1 where the high pressure foredeck( assuming bow down attitude)  somehow vents to the underside to reduce the Vacuum downforce a diffuser would make to the stern? 
there are too many holes for a simple cockpit drain?!?

There is a minimum flow rate to drain the cockpits so that’s why 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

If they sail like AM and ETNZ are with the outer foil tip breaking the surface then the bustle must surely be touching the water.

You can only assume they can’t have done any calculations.. 

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7 minutes ago, ed__miller said:

A few bailing holes will not recover them from a complete nosedive. They will be boat lengths behind in seconds

These holes are more aero than hydro... I reckon these vents are bleeding high pressure from the foredeck/cockpit to the low pressure under the hull to reduce drag caused by the raised stern.. the opposite F1 used to create extra downforce https://www.racecar-engineering.com/tech-explained/f-ducts-how-do-they-work-f1-2010-formula-one-technology/

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15 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

Your race is done anyway at that point 

Exactly. So these holes are not simply for bailing... there is some other effect that they are trying to achieve that’s more than they hydro drag these will cause when floating in the water. This is aero...

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2 hours ago, weta27 said:

a natural progression of the B1 concept.

I don't think it's anything like their first boat. They've totally binned that concept. Blind alley as Simmer said......now we know what he was referring to.

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12 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Kudos to them for really having a go. Their foils are like nothing we've seen from the others. Very steep angle, and quite broad. Not the high aspect ratio we've seen from ETNZ. Seem to be geared for light airs.

Remember that these almost certainly aren't the race foils

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2 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

I don't think it's anything like their first boat. They've totally binned that concept. Blind alley as Simmer said......now we know what he was referring to.

There were rumors going around that B1 was a bit of a dog, there design of B2 doesn’t help in dispelling these rumors 

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3 minutes ago, ed__miller said:

Exactly. So these holes are not simply for bailing... there is some other effect that they are trying to achieve that’s more than they hydro drag these will cause when floating in the water. This is aero...

Don’t agree but you never know 

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2 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

Don’t agree but you never know 

I’m in two minds could be draining for the cockpit, However in the above video they did mention Ineos Mercedes F1 team. Who love ducting air from one place to another. 

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8 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

One thing for sure, 8 weeks till the first race is stuff all time even for a one-design trapezing Olympic class.

Agree, time is very tight, and they're not going to be able to sail every day. Often it just blows out in AKL.

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6 minutes ago, classfve said:

Looks like they’ll have to be sailing rear end down.  The front looks to be capable of touching down a lot although the design may be to lessen the impact if this does happen.  Who knows until we see her go.

Bow down attitude with  skeg kissing the surface as b1was last seen... leaning on the foil in the pressure.  I guess. :)  can’t wait for these beasts to rumble 

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12 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I’m in two minds could be draining for the cockpit, However in the above video they did mention Ineos Mercedes F1 team. Who love ducting air from one place to another. 

Since the f duct was banned they really don’t, and it was McLaren that were the masters of that air ducting trick 

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9 minutes ago, dbeauvar said:

I agree, those holes are for aero, with that huge keel inthe way of the airflow, you need to bring some air on the other side. An F1 team designers love those duct routing of the airflows.

 

Blue sky,

D.

Air scoops?

 

3443CF55-01C6-462A-8A6D-D326C310CFB6.jpeg

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Cannot but feel that the team have gone "All In" on the design stakes. Very Casino Royale to draw parallels. I like the stepped hull. You can see how the hul will quickly diminish frontal resistance as it rises to the skeg portion. The extra step just inside the hinge points will reduce WSA massively at the unsticking phase. The central skeg is very reminiscent of a moth hull - particu;arly at the back and the front has hints of the TP bow on the JK design from what 10 years ago? Its ski like nose will enable them to fly the wjole show close to water surface for good endplating gains.

Those holes are I think more likely viewing windows for monitoring the foil legs for immersion. 

Like the aero treatments - are those deck bulges a way of twinning down the Code Zero sheets more effectively?

Bold, yes, and you have to be bold if you want to win...........

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3 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Since the f duct was banned they really don’t, and it was McLaren that were the masters of that air ducting trick 

But the principal was transferring pressure from one side to the other. Right? So you wouldn’t want downforce induced under the stern behind the skeg. So the vents would relieve the vacuum and reduce drag.... no? 

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2 minutes ago, ed__miller said:

But the principal was transferring pressure from one side to the other. Right? So you wouldn’t want downforce induced under the stern behind the skeg. So the vents would relieve the vacuum and reduce drag.... no? 

No the principle was to stall the airflow over a wing to reduce drag at speed 150 mph plus 

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12 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Since the f duct was banned they really don’t, and it was McLaren that were the masters of that air ducting trick 

There have been lots of ducting schemes , such as the W duct the double diffuser duct. McLaren are not the masters of the air ducting trick they just invented the F Duct. It would be fair that all major team have mastered air ducting 

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4 minutes ago, ed__miller said:

But the principal was transferring pressure from one side to the other. Right? So you wouldn’t want downforce induced under the stern behind the skeg. So the vents would relieve the vacuum and reduce drag.... no? 

Following your theory 

the holes would be bleeding low speed air into a higher speed area, either slowing the airflow or inducing turbulent flow, the very thing you don’t want if you are trying to induce either end plating or smooth air extraction 

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She does sit quite nicely in the water - similar to Te Aihe.......It's how she handles is going to be the big thing..........I get the impression she's going to behave differently from the boats we've seen.....bodes well for some good footage......

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5 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Following your theory 

the holes would be bleeding low speed air into a higher speed area, either slowing the airflow or inducing turbulent flow, the very thing you don’t want if you are trying to induce either end plating or smooth air extraction 

Isn’t the concept of RAN and HugoB to reduce windage/pressure off the foredeck? If Rita is going to be bow down in attitude and end plating surely the high pressure side is above and to windward and the low pressure to rear and leeward? 

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17 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Following your theory 

the holes would be bleeding low speed air into a higher speed area, either slowing the airflow or inducing turbulent flow, the very thing you don’t want if you are trying to induce either end plating or smooth air extraction 

Sometimes inducing turbulence works. The small dimples on a golf ball does that. 

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15 minutes ago, ed__miller said:

Isn’t the concept of RAN and HugoB to reduce windage/pressure off the foredeck? If Rita is going to be bow down in attitude and end plating surely the high pressure side is above and to windward and the low pressure to rear and leeward? 

Maybe I am mixing my metaphors.. what I am try to say is they exactly don’t want to induce downforce under the rear as an f1 car would want. The holes are to vent and equalise pressure from above to below and reduce drag of the whole shape.? 

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4 hours ago, uflux said:

Those are some thick as [ass] foils sections!! 

Looks like they put weight into the Y section of the foils, to reduce the size of the bulb?

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43 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

Clearly not 

D7FB5D31-69D8-48EC-8EC5-55DB4D5E99A3.jpeg

I think this a duct for air. Part of the problem is that you want air to go in and not water. Maybe this shape reduces water intake but allows air. The weird shape at the bow and holes in the hull seem very weird. They might be related to each other or they may not. The good thing for other teams is the idea could be copied. If we suddenly see ETNZ builders rushing in Mitre10 asking for big drill bits  ??

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