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3 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

I'm struggling to make heads or tails out of the rationale of the new "features" of this boat. 

I don't think you're the only one Max. All the other teams are going to be scratching their heads over this boat. So intriguing. The AC has always been predominately a design contest. This boat is either going to be really good, or a big flop...who knows?

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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

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2 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Not only that, but how is it going to handle during tricky starting maneuvers, if in displacement mode? Don't think its going to be able to turn on a dime!

Valid points. They may have a fast boat, but one that is difficult to sail and get around the track. The short time frame makes it problematical as well.

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1 minute ago, Horn Rock said:

This boat is either going to be really good, or a big flop...who knows?

With such a radical boat there not leaving themselves much time.

in the America’s cup in Fremantle Western Australia. One of the defender boats was called steak and kidney which is slang for Sydney. The sailing team ran out of time in developing her when testing on the water. Reflection was she was the fastest defender but just too late in getting all her potential. Fast enough to beat Stars and Stripes....who knows

The Brits are cutting this fine time wise 

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13 minutes ago, Sugarscoop said:

Looks like they may have been talking with Ludde and taken a leaf out of the successful CQS design......

CQS-laying-over-on-Sydney-Harbour-–-ROLEX-Kurt-Arrigo.jpg

just seen another photo of boat been picked up from using these exact points....there definitely for the rigging 

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1 hour ago, ed__miller said:

Looks very bouyant even without a mast? Not much wetted surface ?

We don't know where she floats yet. They kept tension the on crane the whole time, she was never free floating today. When crew got on and off she didn't list, she swayed on the crane rigging instead.

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2 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

In that video posted by @uflux the boat shows she has a lot of rocker, especially in the hull step up from the keel. The sort of rocker you see on a white water kayak. This might be trying to aid her turning ability when immersed?

Going to be hard to push that big skeg through a tack in displacement mode 

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11 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

Going to be hard to push that big skeg through a tack in displacement mode 

Yep.....so something they'll be looking to minimise. Could be problematical in light winds. This could be the reason why they've gone for the big area foils - to make sure they get up, and stay up.

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10 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

In that video posted by @uflux the boat shows she has a lot of rocker, especially in the hull step up from the keel. The sort of rocker you see on a white water kayak. This might be trying to aid her turning ability when immersed?

Yes. When you think the AC 75 has no centerboard or keel pivot around. The foil hanging some 2 meters outside - and usually the wrong side so there is very little to pivot on. Bit like trying to tack a 49er with the centerboard two thirds up. We saw a bit of this on the first ETNZ capsize where she was dangerously dragged by the foil so the wind was pushing her down. Apparently, Ineos learnt a lot in Cagliari when hit by that gust. Shortly after they put the fin on.

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1 hour ago, mikenz2 said:

We don't know where she floats yet. They kept tension the on crane the whole time, she was never free floating today. When crew got on and off she didn't list, she swayed on the crane rigging instead.

@ed__miller she has her mast and is back in the water. We know where she floats now.

 

1140466-01.jpeg

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3 hours ago, Apterix said:

If they have, this may allow them to change the length, chord, etc of the outer foil sections within the rules.  

They are constrained by a defined area that the foils must fit within, which limits foil length. Chord width they can play with providing the foils are with the 10m-12m from stern planes. Weight is also regulated, total of foil arms plus foils etc must be 1385 kg per side.

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5 hours ago, ed__miller said:

Exactly. So these holes are not simply for bailing...

You could always read the rule:

11.15 The hull lower surface shall form a continuous surface bounded only by the perimeter line, with no openings, except for:
(a) the exits of watertight conduits through the hull to provide drainage, which shall be:
(i) no larger than required for their permitted purpose; and
(ii) entirely above MWP; and
(b) penetrations into the closed volume of the hull permitted by Rule 11.16.

Rule 11.16 allows openings for rudder rotation, arms, rigging, etc. Air ducts are not permitted.

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i have not yet had an opportunity to comment about Patriot or Britannia.  Now, raking through the glowing commentary coals there's plenty to note.

On first impressions, the American boat just looks right.  Spare, sleek, streamlined with little obvious attempt to boost displacement performance or aid transition to foiling. Is that such a big issue?  After all, ETNZ's Te Aihe has shown ability to consistently get on her feet (flippers?) in light airs.  Patriot's oopsie yesterday within hours of launching reminded of a small boy coming to terms with his new tricycle,

Britannia?  I am an admirer of Nick Holroyd's design work but it appears to have combined every possible gimmick feature except the kitchen  sink. It seems to be part of a cash-fuelled syndicate overkill on everything from graphics to promotion and PR.

Let's see what CoR and Defender have to reveal.

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1 minute ago, KiwiJoker said:


i have not yet had an opportunity to comment about Patriot or Britannia.  Now, raking through the glowing commentary coals there's plenty to note.

On first impressions, the American boat just looks right.  Spare, sleek, streamlined with little obvious attempt to boost displacement performance or aid transition to foiling. Is that such a big issue?  After all, ETNZ's Te Aihe has shown ability to consistently get on her feet (flippers?) in light airs.  Patriot's oopsie yesterday within hours of launching reminded of a small boy coming to terms with his new tricycle,

Britannia?  I am an admirer of Nick Holroyd's design work but it appears to have combined every possible gimmick feature except the kitchen  sink. It seems to be part of a cash-fuelled syndicate overkill on everything from graphics to promotion and PR.

Let's see what CoR and Defender have to reveal.

Yes it could easily be interpreted as a boat with every possible feature. As for the PR well nowadays you have to otherwise there will always be a shortage of sponsors. Nick Holroyd vs Dan Bernasconi, perhaps the designs will reflect their personalities in the end? LOL

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19 minutes ago, RobG said:

You could always read the rule:

11.15 The hull lower surface shall form a continuous surface bounded only by the perimeter line, with no openings, except for:
(a) the exits of watertight conduits through the hull to provide drainage, which shall be:
(i) no larger than required for their permitted purpose; and
(ii) entirely above MWP; and
(b) penetrations into the closed volume of the hull permitted by Rule 11.16.

Rule 11.16 allows openings for rudder rotation, arms, rigging, etc. Air ducts are not permitted.

Which I think puts a close to this, must be drainage 

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23 minutes ago, NZK said:

In @mikenz2 latest pics it seems like the jib tracks extend into those outboard fairing bumps whilst the shrouds appear to attach further aft...?

This thing is, interesting......

Finally home and looking through this morning's photos on a laptop and not a little phone screen. It's definitely a track.
 

P1140240 (2).JPG

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11 minutes ago, mikenz2 said:

Finally home and looking through this morning's photos on a laptop and not a little phone screen. It's definitely a track.
 

P1140240 (2).JPG

Given that they're not allowed self tacking jibs, they must be using twin cars on this single track?? Or a single car but some variation on rings for sheet leads and in/out fuckery to satisfy the rule. I'm guessing this effort is about making the headsail transitions as smooth as possible in the tacks (thinking back to comparisons of AM vs ETNZ out in the harbour) . Seems like a fairly big aero compromise to get that track in?

Although with that track it might be easier to haul the jib to windward when they bury that fucking keel during a prestart and lose steerage...(what colour is semi-sarcasm font?)

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8 minutes ago, NZK said:

Given that they're not allowed self tacking jibs, they must be using twin cars on this single track??

I was just looking for the same thing in my photos, and finally found it! Two huge jib cars!

P1140485_(2)_LI.jpg

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They have had that there on B1 I think? 
 

your pic with the jib cars shows it better, also that it’s bolted down so if they need access they can get it, I guess at cooling something given the air scoop/vent in the forward facing surface 

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9 hours ago, Boybland said:

So who is still in the basically one design like last time camp now?

These things are freaking awesome!!!!!

I am completely clueless about foiling, boat design and boat engineering, and I don't even like these boats, however this AC is now so much more interesting than the last one. Finally we have a real design contest and boats built according to different concepts with visible differences. It's fun again to watch, can't wait for the first regatta. 

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9 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Sure, but with limited numbers/time you can't really afford subterfuge......

Swapping the foils can be done overnight. You wouldn't put your final foils on yet. With such a radical boat I would be starting to sail it on high lift foils to reduce the chance of problems and moving to faster ones once ready. Note that may be just new tips rather than whole foils if the mass rules allow

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5 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Swapping the foils can be done overnight.

That wasn't the time parameter I was referring to. Time to establish your data on a particular setup.

 

7 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

With such a radical boat I would be starting to sail it on high lift foils

Which they look to be doing. Their initial foils are big....

AFAIK Ineos/AM have not tried flat foils on their 75's. Interesting as ETNZ have used them quite extensively.....

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2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

They have had that there on B1 I think? 
 

your pic with the jib cars shows it better, also that it’s bolted down so if they need access they can get it, I guess at cooling something given the air scoop/vent in the forward facing surface 

Really? You would put a forward facing vent on the bow of one of these boats...to chill something?

Must be a better guess. Only on phone as usual so can't do ptshp enhance

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This boat is bold indeed!

These AC75s are not that heavy given their size and Britannia does not seem to sit very deep in the water. Aside other things, could the design shift boyancy from the main hull to what is effectively the wet surface of a tri's outboard hull? That should help with getting up and flying quickly ...

Gosh, the British don't have the word "idiosyncratic" in their dictionary for nothing!

 

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12 minutes ago, barfy said:

Really? You would put a forward facing vent on the bow of one of these boats...to chill something?

Must be a better guess. Only on phone as usual so can't do ptshp enhance

Laser beams?

Ben has been watching too many Bond movies during lockdown

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40 minutes ago, barfy said:

Really? You would put a forward facing vent on the bow of one of these boats...to chill something?

Must be a better guess. Only on phone as usual so can't do ptshp enhance

Dunno if it’s to chill something but the vent is there on both boats, think AM b1 had the same thing too? But also on the phone and not trawling photos,

39592CE2-BD60-47E4-A8A0-50748C015155.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Rushman said:

Laser beams?

Ben has been watching too many Bond movies during lockdown

I was going to say the gunnery position for 'the Guv' for when Spithill starts getting warmed up into his sledging game....

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17 hours ago, mikenz2 said:

They pulled her back out and she's back on the cradle.

1140419-01.jpeg

1140425-01.jpeg

They seem to agree with one of our more knowledgeable poster, and Ineos already hinted several times about speed in excess of 50kts.

As for the rest of the concept, it is quite interesting and very complex.
- They kept minimal frontale cross section. Hull excluding bustle looks pretty thin (AM actually looks a bit fat around the middle).
- Interesting to see the shape of their bustle. Looking at it from the front makes it look like water ski and given their speed it might well have similar effect (as long as angle of incidence at contact is not to big).
- Main concern, maneuverability in displacement mode but that is not expected to be required very often.

Mikenz and Weta are probably lens cleaning right now and can't wait to see their next production, it starts to be an interesting cast out there on the water.
 

 

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17 hours ago, terrafirma said:

One sexy bit of kit..! 

 

Now that's really fantastic new design.
And the keelsection that comes out when foiling gives lateral propulsion area  when not.
A static is boom is shown, not the internals,

Front is daring, this boat will luff enormously when not foiling.
Especially with leeward foil not down.
I see the idea, she might be out the water first.
595173000_ineos4.thumb.PNG.b2bde6553c030e1392b754d556eee191.PNG

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8 hours ago, _JGTProjects_ said:

Transverse grinding positions?

Vs Patriot longitudinal and ETNZ boat 1 transverse

yysw298108.jpg

 

 

Probably maximising space-utilisation decision, and possibly functional as well to have the grinders see which of them is slackening off and rev him up :)

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Interesting comments in the launch video:

The designer says they have pushed the design to the extreme edges, as far as it can go...

They have spent more hours sailing B2 in the simulator than they will be able to sail the actual boat through the AC.

The "pilot" had quite a few good comments:

- The form has changed substantially between B2 and B1.  Slow speed maneuverability is much more difficult, initial stage of acceleration will be tricker.  But B2 is much better aerodynamically, will accelerate much quicker in the mid-range, better acceleration to take-off.

- They have sailed all of the computer boats (B1's) in simulation, and tested all of the foils.....

- SPEEDS: bearing away and reaching they should be able to get over 50 knots.  upwind over 30 knots. downwind in the mid to high 40's.

- once in the air, his goal is to keep the foils as high and close to the surface of the water (to reduce drag) without causing a catastrophe.  

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I have a few questions about some of the details of UK B2.  It looks like they are being a little sloppy about features that could be adding some drag.  I do not know if it is enough to make a difference, but they could have easily made these part more streamlined.

The bow, why is it so blunt on the nose, why are the bolts sticking out from the hull where they attach the bowsprit and the bobstay to the hull.  

280980790_ScreenShot2020-10-17at4_20_47PM.thumb.png.83a6c59851e796a710cc7b526e51f818.png

And why does the bottom of the keel have ripples in it?

919137548_ScreenShot2020-10-17at5_23_23PM.png.ef167210dc8ccd6d6934e41dd41829d1.png

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22 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

 

- once in the air, his goal is to keep the foils as high and close to the surface of the water (to reduce drag) without causing a catastrophe.  

he said that? Interesting

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Just now, The_Alchemist said:

He didn't actually say goal, but said to reduce drag he wants to keep the foils as high and close to the surface of the water without causing a catastrophe.

Perhaps it’s for less arm-induced hydro drag 

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3 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

yes

It’s possible that, because the arm trailing-edge fairings are team-designed and likely aid in windward climb, that this having less arm in the water is more important downwind than upwind.

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25 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

I have a few questions about some of the details of UK B2.  It looks like they are being a little sloppy about features that could be adding some drag.  I do not know if it is enough to make a difference, but they could have easily made these part more streamlined.

The bow, why is it so blunt on the nose, why are the bolts sticking out from the hull where they attach the bowsprit and the bobstay to the hull.  

280980790_ScreenShot2020-10-17at4_20_47PM.thumb.png.83a6c59851e796a710cc7b526e51f818.png

And why does the bottom of the keel have ripples in it?

919137548_ScreenShot2020-10-17at5_23_23PM.png.ef167210dc8ccd6d6934e41dd41829d1.png

Poorly faired by there builders 

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36 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

I have a few questions about some of the details of UK B2.  It looks like they are being a little sloppy about features that could be adding some drag.  I do not know if it is enough to make a difference, but they could have easily made these part more streamlined.

The bow, why is it so blunt on the nose, why are the bolts sticking out from the hull where they attach the bowsprit and the bobstay to the hull.  

280980790_ScreenShot2020-10-17at4_20_47PM.thumb.png.83a6c59851e796a710cc7b526e51f818.png

And why does the bottom of the keel have ripples in it?

919137548_ScreenShot2020-10-17at5_23_23PM.png.ef167210dc8ccd6d6934e41dd41829d1.png

That is water reflecting back up not poor fairing LOL..! As for the bolts don't think it's an issue in terms of speed planes have rivets everywhere too.

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31 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

To elaborate, if the nose is sharp then for anything other than the design wind angle (0 deg apparent if you want it symmetrical) then the sharp edge causes flow separation. 

Makes sense since they do not travel directly into the wind.

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In AM you see a smallish skeg, and in Ineos B2 you see a massive Skeg. How can two competent design teams be so far apart. One of these teams must be wrong. The Italians have indicated not massive changes. AM B2 seems a refined LR B1.  The Brits also admit that they have taken things to the limit. I wonder if they have gone too far with the skeg concept. 

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