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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

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15 hours ago, Varan said:

ETNZ should name B2 seagull, the boat by which all other boat speeds should be judged by. 

I think it should be name based upon it's performance so far... Ghost, or Phantom.  

Hey, I know... how about Snipe.  All of the other teams would be Snipe hunting..

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On 11/6/2020 at 6:42 PM, Mariner said:

Im not following as closely as I used to... what is the latest estimate of top sped of these things?

Ineos and Ben Ainslie keep boasting about 'over 50 knots'... they've probably gone near or over 50 knots after a few hairy bear aways in just the right conditions, as have all teams IMO. 

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When has he said “we “ have been over 50?

he has said the class is capable of it

terry has said nz and Prada have been 

commentators say AM have been

Ben has been very discreet about ineos so not sure where you get the boasting from? 

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Stuff and spy shots.

If the safety gear weighs 5kg  that's a 470 helm equiv in extra weight which is quite a lot performance-wise, especially as it lowers the max weight of the grinders. Interesting seeing James Spithall and BA's loss of weight for these boats.  Quite hard achieving consistent performance underweight with low side effects.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rule-britannia-sir-ben-ainslies-quest-to-win-the-americas-cup-for-britain-2bh8m26l9

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23 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

Stuff and spy shots.

If the safety gear weighs 5kg  that's a 470 helm equiv in extra weight which is quite a lot performance-wise, especially as it lowers the max weight of the grinders. Interesting seeing James Spithall and BA's loss of weight for these boats.  Quite hard achieving consistent performance underweight with low side effects.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rule-britannia-sir-ben-ainslies-quest-to-win-the-americas-cup-for-britain-2bh8m26l9

Crew weight (in underwear) and equipment weight are specified separately. As are Guest racer, Guest Racer equipment and Crew carried media equipment.

See 10.1, 28.3 and 28.4 in AC75 Class Rule.

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4 hours ago, _JGTProjects_ said:

Took two images from a recent ineos video and overlayed them with some of my images from the summer;

to try create a b1 vs b2 

Screenshot 2010-29 at 12.52.39.jpg

 

Screenshot 2020-10-29 at 12.52.39.jpg

 

It looks like they didn’t really add a bustle, but just stepped the outer edges of the hull.  Took that volume and added it to widen the keel to help it skip more than slice into the water.

The B1 design reminds me of a perimeter weight golf club head. 

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6 hours ago, chesirecat said:

one for the SA foil division

EmUrcaYU8AIIMlC.jpg

Would you mind asking the camera person to take another pic exactly perpendicular to the foil, and get the guy on the boat to cant the closest foil until it's foil baseline is at 0° degrees?

Trying to calc the foil's AoA... :D

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29 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Would you mind asking the camera person to take another pic exactly perpendicular to the foil, and get the guy on the boat to cant the closest foil until it's foil baseline is at 0° degrees?

Trying to calc the foil's AoA... :D

I'll possibly be there Xmas/NY with an 800mm lens, stabilised system and 6k video so I'll ask.

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1 minute ago, chesirecat said:

I'll possibly be there Xmas/NY with an 800mm lens, stabilised system and 6k video so I'll ask.

Awesome!  We have high expectations of you.   ;)

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On 11/7/2020 at 5:34 PM, Varan said:

I thought there were four competitors in this cup. ETNZ, where are you?

I must say my favourite Challenger AM Patriot has got that barrel-chest down-arse up pose down pat. And it looks scarily fast...

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1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

16-18 x F1 mercedes engineers working on Ineos to milk every bit of speed from the boat. Should the Kiwis be worried?

https://www.facebook.com/INEOSTEAMUK/videos/376170060464236/

 

Didn't they have the whole of the aerospace industry designing their very slow boat last time?

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22 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Yeah but somehow "18 Land Rover engineers" didn't quite have the same ring to it ...

Or "the might and industrial action prowess of British Leyland"...

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On 11/9/2020 at 5:30 AM, The_Alchemist said:

It looks like they didn’t really add a bustle, but just stepped the outer edges of the hull.  Took that volume and added it to widen the keel to help it skip more than slice into the water.

The B1 design reminds me of a perimeter weight golf club head. 

How do you think they run the Hydraulic ram - inorder  to get such a huge range of movement of the foil?... It must run right across the boat to get the length of ram required... Thus the beam... ?

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15 minutes ago, Baconator said:

How do you think they run the Hydraulic ram - inorder  to get such a huge range of movement of the foil?... It must run right across the boat to get the length of ram required... Thus the beam... ?

Almost to the centre. Beam is specified as 4.8-5.0m.

image.png.05d115455caf83dcfa8c6e09b95b0dab.png

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22 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

Almost to the centre. Beam is specified as 4.8-5.0m.

image.png.05d115455caf83dcfa8c6e09b95b0dab.png

Wow... Not much leverage. Isn't the foil cant axis in the hulls skin ...which means the arm the ram is attached to cannot be wider than the axis...  

 

What loads are on the ram when adjusted under load?

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Foil update for Britannia from today - their foil that has been much-discussed on here seems to have had a glossy coat? Max thinks it may have been slim-lined??

And a new one on Port, slight anhedral and swept straight front edges, with curved tips. It also looks quite glossy.

foil1.jpg

foil2.jpg

foil3.jpg

foil4.jpg

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Lightest wind take off that I saw from any team today:

Britannia had a Code Zero as well as a forestay (unloaded), you can see a crew member go forward before they tack to manage this. They did a lot of sailing back and forth in displacement mode until the wind built and they switched to a jib.

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43 minutes ago, mikenz2 said:

Lightest wind take off that I saw from any team today:

Britannia had a Code Zero as well as a forestay (unloaded), you can see a crew member go forward before they tack to manage this. They did a lot of sailing back and forth in displacement mode until the wind built and they switched to a jib.

Transition looks so smooth, amazing acceleration. That fin must be displacing a couple of tonnes and flat bottom a bucket load of lift.

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

So much for that fancy F1 designed inverted gull foil, it looks like they have gone back to testing an anhedral with a minimized bulb.

Aww, it was all cutting edge and cool when there was a little one on TeKahu

built by the merc F1 team . Not designed but hey never mind. 

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Am I missing something? I don't understand why the windward foil is raised when the boat is in displacement mode. Surely use both foils to get airborne and then raise the windward.

Yes I know it's testing, but still!

 

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11 hours ago, weta27 said:

Foil update for Britannia from today - their foil that has been much-discussed on here seems to have had a glossy coat? Max thinks it may have been slim-lined??

And a new one on Port, slight anhedral and swept straight front edges, with curved tips. It also looks quite glossy.

foil1.jpg

foil2.jpg

foil3.jpg

foil4.jpg

Thanks Weta, useful pics as usual.  

What seems evident is that teams are still very unsettled on foil design (perhaps with the exception of AM - who appear to have made smaller adjustments to their foil concept so far). 

We still see a variety of foil designs being trialled by the teams and there is considerable movement back and forth between bulb/no bulb, anhedral/flat, narrow/broad, fences/no fences, etc.  LR look like they're checking out earlier ETNZ designs, ETNZ looked like there were moving toward AM and LR's bulbed designs before they stripped B1, and INEOS were off on their own - but now appear to be testing something that looks more like an anhedral version of  ETNZ's blended bulb-wing.  

I guess figuring out the trade-offs with foil design is complex, but it makes me wonder whether the teams are struggling to accurately model the behaviour and performance of the foils.  Modelling the flow of air over a aeroplane wing seems comparatively simple compared with modelling a flying surface the operates across mediums of very different density (i.e. air water) with all the associated ventilation type issues that arise.  

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31 minutes ago, laser 173312 said:

Am I missing something? I don't understand why the windward foil is raised when the boat is in displacement mode. Surely use both foils to get airborne and then raise the windward.

Yes I know it's testing, but still!

 

Righting moment and I’m pretty sure the rules limit how long you can have both in the water.

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3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

So much for that fancy F1 designed inverted gull foil, it looks like they have gone back to testing an anhedral with a minimized bulb.

'minimised'?

Who was it that was banging on a few months ago about how the kiwis were clearly behind with their bulb less foils because all the other teams had bulbs?:D

How the worm doth turn :-)

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15 hours ago, weta27 said:

Foil update for Britannia from today - their foil that has been much-discussed on here seems to have had a glossy coat? Max thinks it may have been slim-lined??

And a new one on Port, slight anhedral and swept straight front edges, with curved tips. It also looks quite glossy.

foil4.jpg

The new foil looks like it has quite a "blended" underside... wonder what the top looks like - are they trying out NZ's "BFB" profile?

Thought I'd compare NZ's foil area with this one, about 50% larger area:

image.png.b8dce9df2924f8bfb8313f77f52c030c.png

image.png.82937010a56c7e8c4f62eb45af9e2aeb.png

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3 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Righting moment and I’m pretty sure the rules limit how long you can have both in the water.

Absolutely for RM...  but haven't seen anything in the rules re leaving them down (?), but I would have thought there'd be no reason to do that anyway, too much drag, ample lifting moments with 1 foil from about 6 knots TWS, etc

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2 hours ago, rh3000 said:

'minimised'?

Who was it that was banging on a few months ago about how the kiwis were clearly behind with their bulb less foils because all the other teams had bulbs?:D

How the worm doth turn :-)

I wouldn’t use a boat that at least for now, looks kind of slow, as proof to your point. 

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9 hours ago, laser 173312 said:

Am I missing something? I don't understand why the windward foil is raised when the boat is in displacement mode. Surely use both foils to get airborne and then raise the windward.

Yes I know it's testing, but still!

 

Perhaps drag is too much of a penalty to pay?

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6 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

The new foil looks like it has quite a "blended" underside... wonder what the top looks like - are they trying out NZ's "BFB" profile?

Thought I'd compare NZ's foil area with this one, about 50% larger area:

image.png.b8dce9df2924f8bfb8313f77f52c030c.png

image.png.82937010a56c7e8c4f62eb45af9e2aeb.png

Nice drawings.  Should the AM on the top drawing be UK instead?

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3 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Nice drawings.  Should the AM on the top drawing be UK instead?

Bugger - you're right of course.  Maybe it was past beer o'clock...

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10 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Aww, it was all cutting edge and cool when there was a little one on TeKahu

built by the merc F1 team . Not designed but hey never mind. 

https://www.sailweb.co.uk/2020/10/28/the-appliance-of-mercedes-f1-applied-science-to-britannia/
 

Sure sounds like they are crediting the F1 team with a lot more than just building the foils.

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7 hours ago, rh3000 said:

'minimised'?

Who was it that was banging on a few months ago about how the kiwis were clearly behind with their bulb less foils because all the other teams had bulbs?:D

How the worm doth turn :-)

I used the word minimized because I could remember wtf you guys were calling it.   The Kiwis have had the most changes in their foil packages on the big boats than any other team.  Obviously, the teams are dialing in the performance of the foils, but you do not typically see such jumping around on the various designs by just one team if they truly know what direction they want to go.  Again, the reason why it was critiqued so heavily is because all of the fanboys raved about how advanced their original designs were compared to all the other teams.

I fully suspect to see AM go to smaller, faster foils as they get closer to the races.  They seem to be focused on mastering boat handling and crew work before they push it to the edge.

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All teams are currently on their 4th generation foils, or so we are told. These designs will be at least a couple of months old in terms of the team's current knowledge of foil design. Much will depend on how quickly each team can make these things so those with additive titanium production capabilities and such, will be at an advantage.

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38 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Again, the reason why it was critiqued so heavily is because all of the fanboys raved about how advanced their original designs were compared to all the other teams.

Some certainly did - and it turns out they might have been right...

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51 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

All teams are currently on their 4th generation foils, or so we are told. These designs will be at least a couple of months old in terms of the team's current knowledge of foil design. Much will depend on how quickly each team can make these things so those with additive titanium production capabilities and such, will be at an advantage.

I found it rather puzzling that the rules are "6 foils" rather than "6 pairs of foils" - this seems to be quite limiting, considering the teams would want 1 pair for light weather, and 1 for heavy weather.

That's 4 foils already, not much room for test foils... if they have tried 4 test foils already, they would have to add the remaining 2 to match 2 of the 4 tested. Is that right?

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

https://www.sailweb.co.uk/2020/10/28/the-appliance-of-mercedes-f1-applied-science-to-britannia/
 

Sure sounds like they are crediting the F1 team with a lot more than just building the foils.

The bit in italics from holroyd “we” is ineos 

the second bit in italics from MAS  

it’s pretty clear who used their  experience and expertise the boaty people for design, the clever car people for build as yeah it’s a total shock but they happen to have better tech/build and manufacturing experience when it comes to making wired stuff out of carbon. 
 

Let’s look at your design, show you what can be built using what we can do you then refine it within the realms of what we have shown you can be built then let us build it for you 

Its collaboration between design and manufacturing, not that hard to grasp 

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2 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

I found it rather puzzling that the rules are "6 foils" rather than "6 pairs of foils" - this seems to be quite limiting, considering the teams would want 1 pair for light weather, and 1 for heavy weather.

That's 4 foils already, not much room for test foils... if they have tried 4 test foils already, they would have to add the remaining 2 to match 2 of the 4 tested. Is that right?

Unlike Bermuda you have to lock your foils in for racing configuration quite early on, far enough out that weather is going to be seasonal trends and not "its windy tomorrow use the heavy foils" so in my opinion the teams will be building generalist foils that lean towards expected conditions rather than out and out light or heavy wind foils.

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12 hours ago, nroose said:

Perhaps drag is too much of a penalty to pay?

May be, but I should of explained my thoughts more. 

The foils are quite heavy objects, if the boat is struggling to fly surely having lift from 2 foils to help lift the hull is going to be beneficial, compared to one foil trying to lift the hull and the other foil. Just look at how the boats pop up when tacking or gybing as the 2nd foil is lowered into the water. 

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

And someone from one of the team's did say that the takeoff speed was lower with 2 foils so it makes sense. But presumably either the drag to get to that speed or the lack of RM makes it a worse option 

Or it would telegraph take off speed so it doesn't happen until all the spy boats are a bit distant.

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13 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

And someone from one of the team's did say that the takeoff speed was lower with 2 foils so it makes sense. But presumably either the drag to get to that speed or the lack of RM makes it a worse option 

It was Max that said it so... 

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24 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

It was Max that said it so... 

Yes, Max Sirena quoted 16 knots take-off on 2 foils, 19 knots on one.  But you still need to weigh up the extra drag and reduced RM, and will you be ahead or behind the other boat going for a one foil take-off? Time will tell.

Someone commented in YT on one of Justin's videos that there were Sailing Rules which limited the use of 2 foils simultaneously... imagine it wouldn't apply to a take-off attempt, but I don't know.

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4 hours ago, terrafirma said:

This is the best I have seen Ineos sail in the light conditions. The boat seems very fast and you can see the bustle/skeg working IMO. 

 

just looking at the date of this vid one might think those wiley limeys have found a potentially winning trick, what with being way ahead of their time, grin

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8 hours ago, terrafirma said:

This is the best I have seen Ineos sail in the light conditions. The boat seems very fast and you can see the bustle/skeg working IMO. 

 

This is so great! A video from the future! Exactly what we need!

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It it me or is impossible to have a clue from isolated video in unknown wind strength, no idea of boat set up or what they are trying to do in a given session.. 

I can’t help but think people just sit on thread for teams they don’t support making random guesses 

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14 hours ago, terrafirma said:

This is the best I have seen Ineos sail in the light conditions. The boat seems very fast and you can see the bustle/skeg working IMO. 

 

Wasn't light winds - breeze was 15-18kts at Northern Leading at 1800hrs yesterday (and had been hovering around 12kts since noon). You can see the whitecaps in the later stages of the video. Plus they have their #2 jib on which is the usual choice in these conditions.

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4 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Is it just me or do others feel like they are slower that the other boats.  Their designs are so boxy, like even the new narrow rudder with the step.  I can't help but think they will be the last boat in Prada cup.

It will be a Luna Rossa v Ineos Team UK final.

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19 hours ago, terrafirma said:

This is the best I have seen Ineos sail in the light conditions. The boat seems very fast and you can see the bustle/skeg working IMO. 

 

Interesting vid. At about 2.14 (after the crew member moves to leeward) you can see the boom end shunt backwards. Must be a barrel of oil behind that adjustment.

Thoughts?

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20 hours ago, terrafirma said:

This is the best I have seen Ineos sail in the light conditions. The boat seems very fast and you can see the bustle/skeg working IMO. 

 

Ooohh, foil down then up again with a neat little pinch to windward...interesting. Fake tack, pre-start manuoevre or a new mode?

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