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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

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Ben talks about the deck layout and hull design. Crew are divided in two trenches as he called it.
And they take shelter in these trenches for aerodynamic reasons.
Sounds like World War 1:D
Podcast Road to the America's Cup ep5: AC75 hull design
troops-British-trench-Western-Front-World-War.thumb.jpg.a17129c30733b3146d0652cd32337b12.jpg

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7 hours ago, NZK said:

Not sure about Jono specifically but the knitting circles are full of chat about how INEOS are just shedding people from the shore team  - sounds like some quite big players have left in the last few weeks, if it's all true then INEOS are going to be hurting...

I see Ian Mccabe gone from Shore team as well? I thought he was like furniture 

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On 1/11/2020 at 8:47 AM, chesirecat said:

New sailing configuration going off the rudder. Must have some impressive control systems with that rake.

 

Image credit and copyright Allessandro Spiga Photography

 

Alessandro Spiga Photography.jpg

Can you elaborate on your take away? Thx.

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36 minutes ago, barfy said:

Can you elaborate on your take away? Thx.

Yep, the rudder rake looks well forward. We dont know if its sailing state or just all systems off but even then just being able to rake that much says something.

Rudder rake overview. Rake needs to be set so there is slight weather helm upwind with boat set up properly. Raking aft gives more, raking forward gives less. Boats like the 470 will have a degree or more forward rake, Tornado a bit less and that boat is highly sensitive from distant memory - Tcat will have the latest numbers. The faster the speed the more rudder rake becomes difficult to control and the more unstable it becomes - partly due to turbulence traveling up the forward section but mainly any slight oversteer generates immediate and large forces - enough to take the tiller out of your hand or drag you off the sidedeck even though one might be hiking out. Rudder rake needs to be matched with mast rake, ie when the wind increases we rake the mast aft. Sometimes this is as simple as easing rig tension slightly as it's only moving a few centimeters at the top. Raking the mast aft loads up the rudder so it needs to be balanced by raking forward, usually, the boards are raked aft to compensate as well but this is limited in the AC75's. Raking mast also changes the foresail dynamics but this is another subject. In San Fran ETNZ and Oracle needed to change the leach twist profile  (load it up) and this loaded up the rudders and consequently rake changes.

I suspect Ineos have been able to generate special leach profiles along with mast bend/twist characteristics  (they are related), but this loads up the rudder, hence its forward rake. The reason I suspect is because of their mast failure issues since which implies they have been loading up the rig tension to get that D section to twist properly. Semi rotating D sections have interesting bend characteristics, which I think, are well suited to these boats providing one can wack up the rig tension enough.

Quite frankly if, and this is pure conjecture,  the rudders are sailing with that much forward rake just a millimeter miscalculation on the helm would break a lot of expensive stuff. I would venture to add it could be beyond human control without some very good control systems and exotic rudder construction. not to mention the aft hull sections would need to be strengthened or/and designed more box section - oh wait.

Anyway, this is all pure conjecture and maybe others might want to come in with some numbers on say A Class, Moths, Nacras etc.

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5 hours ago, chesirecat said:

Yep, the rudder rake looks well forward. We dont know if its sailing state or just all systems off but even then just being able to rake that much says something.

Rudder rake overview. Rake needs to be set so there is slight weather helm upwind with boat set up properly. Raking aft gives more, raking forward gives less. Boats like the 470 will have a degree or more forward rake, Tornado a bit less and that boat is highly sensitive from distant memory - Tcat will have the latest numbers. The faster the speed the more rudder rake becomes difficult to control and the more unstable it becomes - partly due to turbulence traveling up the forward section but mainly any slight oversteer generates immediate and large forces - enough to take the tiller out of your hand or drag you off the sidedeck even though one might be hiking out. Rudder rake needs to be matched with mast rake, ie when the wind increases we rake the mast aft. Sometimes this is as simple as easing rig tension slightly as it's only moving a few centimeters at the top. Raking the mast aft loads up the rudder so it needs to be balanced by raking forward, usually, the boards are raked aft to compensate as well but this is limited in the AC75's. Raking mast also changes the foresail dynamics but this is another subject. In San Fran ETNZ and Oracle needed to change the leach twist profile  (load it up) and this loaded up the rudders and consequently rake changes.

I suspect Ineos have been able to generate special leach profiles along with mast bend/twist characteristics  (they are related), but this loads up the rudder, hence its forward rake. The reason I suspect is because of their mast failure issues since which implies they have been loading up the rig tension to get that D section to twist properly. Semi rotating D sections have interesting bend characteristics, which I think, are well suited to these boats providing one can wack up the rig tension enough.

Quite frankly if, and this is pure conjecture,  the rudders are sailing with that much forward rake just a millimeter miscalculation on the helm would break a lot of expensive stuff. I would venture to add it could be beyond human control without some very good control systems and exotic rudder construction. not to mention the aft hull sections would need to be strengthened or/and designed more box section - oh wait.

Anyway, this is all pure conjecture and maybe others might want to come in with some numbers on say A Class, Moths, Nacras etc.

Changing rake in the way that the AC75s are changing rake won't really affect the weather/lee helm of the boat - the whole stock/blade assembly is moving, rather than the blade relative to the stock/pivot point. Obviously the boat will be slightly different to drive with different rake settings, but not in as simple a way as more/less weather helm. 

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On 1/10/2020 at 7:19 AM, NZK said:

Not sure about Jono specifically but the knitting circles are full of chat about how INEOS are just shedding people from the shore team  - sounds like some quite big players have left in the last few weeks, if it's all true then INEOS are going to be hurting...

Plenty of rumour and conjecture, but from first hand conversations, can confirm that most if not all of the shore department heads have unanimously left the team for pretty similar reasons... this is the same group that stuck it out through Bermuda, the interim and the transition into Ineos so one can only imagine the issue may lie with management changes since then? Rumour has it that the count is close to 20 individuals in as little as 2 months. If this is true then this is more often than not telling of failing management, conditions, compensation or all of the above. The tell will be whom they find to fill this void on such short notice. We may see further evidence of the mercenary stigma associated with this outfit.

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12 hours ago, jr15457 said:

Changing rake in the way that the AC75s are changing rake won't really affect the weather/lee helm of the boat - the whole stock/blade assembly is moving, rather than the blade relative to the stock/pivot point. Obviously the boat will be slightly different to drive with different rake settings, but not in as simple a way as more/less weather helm. 

This was my thought as well @chesirecat, thanks for the thoughts tho.

My first bit to un pack was that with active rake control it won't be a matter of setting up the rudder as much as the relationship between stern height,  main foil height, and flap and foil wing angle. Then all the sail dynamics. Complicated I reckon.

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3 hours ago, Racing Fast said:

Plenty of rumour and conjecture, but from first hand conversations, can confirm that most if not all of the shore department heads have unanimously left the team for pretty similar reasons... this is the same group that stuck it out through Bermuda, the interim and the transition into Ineos so one can only imagine the issue may lie with management changes since then? Rumour has it that the count is close to 20 individuals in as little as 2 months. If this is true then this is more often than not telling of failing management, conditions, compensation or all of the above. The tell will be whom they find to fill this void on such short notice. We may see further evidence of the mercenary stigma associated with this outfit.

Main thing that has happened since ineos is sail gp. Which comes with its own shore crew, no?

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19 hours ago, chesirecat said:

Yep, the rudder rake looks well forward. We dont know if its sailing state or just all systems off but even then just being able to rake that much says something.

Rudder rake overview. Rake needs to be set so there is slight weather helm upwind with boat set up properly. Raking aft gives more, raking forward gives less. Boats like the 470 will have a degree or more forward rake, Tornado a bit less and that boat is highly sensitive from distant memory - Tcat will have the latest numbers. The faster the speed the more rudder rake becomes difficult to control and the more unstable it becomes - partly due to turbulence traveling up the forward section but mainly any slight oversteer generates immediate and large forces - enough to take the tiller out of your hand or drag you off the sidedeck even though one might be hiking out. Rudder rake needs to be matched with mast rake, ie when the wind increases we rake the mast aft. Sometimes this is as simple as easing rig tension slightly as it's only moving a few centimeters at the top. Raking the mast aft loads up the rudder so it needs to be balanced by raking forward, usually, the boards are raked aft to compensate as well but this is limited in the AC75's. Raking mast also changes the foresail dynamics but this is another subject. In San Fran ETNZ and Oracle needed to change the leach twist profile  (load it up) and this loaded up the rudders and consequently rake changes.

 I suspect Ineos have been able to generate special leach profiles along with mast bend/twist characteristics  (they are related), but this loads up the rudder, hence its forward rake. The reason I suspect is because of their mast failure issues since which implies they have been loading up the rig tension to get that D section to twist properly. Semi rotating D sections have interesting bend characteristics, which I think, are well suited to these boats providing one can wack up the rig tension enough.

Quite frankly if, and this is pure conjecture,  the rudders are sailing with that much forward rake just a millimeter miscalculation on the helm would break a lot of expensive stuff. I would venture to add it could be beyond human control without some very good control systems and exotic rudder construction. not to mention the aft hull sections would need to be strengthened or/and designed more box section - oh wait.

Anyway, this is all pure conjecture and maybe others might want to come in with some numbers on say A Class, Moths, Nacras etc.

Could the change in rudder rake just simply be related to wanting to foil with a more bow down position, which would in effect straighten out the rudder rake in the water?

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15 hours ago, jr15457 said:

Changing rake in the way that the AC75s are changing rake won't really affect the weather/lee helm of the boat - the whole stock/blade assembly is moving, rather than the blade relative to the stock/pivot point. Obviously the boat will be slightly different to drive with different rake settings, but not in as simple a way as more/less weather helm. 

This is much closer to the effect than Cheshirecats' explanation.

As the point of effort is NOT moving in relation to the rotation of the stock then far less change to the feel upon helmsman. BUT massive change to the horizontals attitude and AOA.

So think what the I14's go through rather than rudder rake on traditional rudders.

Importantly, when you start flying horizontals at a heeled angle its direction of lift starts to steer and throw the stern around in non-intuitive directions. Again I14 sailors would understand but others may need to digest that for a little while.

The fact that they have so much forward rake capability may be the rudimentary Moth style way of discouraging air entrainment down the vertical.

But they wouldn't be wasting rake capability without an upside. ;)

Bow down trim would certainly be one up side - but requires other systems and architecture to be complimentary to that trim state. They will all be searching for that skittish yet barely controlled feeling rather than planted and stodgy point the boat is too embedded to really run. Speed gains at this point on the control spectrum are large, but need to be tempered with the flirting on the edge of disaster. Expect to see lots more splashs crashes and worse. For ALL teams.

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2 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Could the change in rudder rake just simply be related to wanting to foil with a more bow down position, which would in effect straighten out the rudder rake in the water?

Rudder can be raked dynamically quite a bit, 16.4, sorry can't paste it. Who knows where or why the launch position is.

Interesting as discussed, if one flight controller does flaps and rudder or are the tasks shared out.

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16.3 The wetted part of the rudder must be symmetric about the rudder centre plane, with a build tolerance
of 3.0 mm.
16.4 With the rudder centre plane aligned with LCP, and at all rake angles that can be achieved, no wetted part
of the rudder shall extend:
(a) below a waterline plane 3.500 m below MWP;
(b) aft of TRP; or
(c) forward of a transverse plane 1.500 m forward of TRP.
16.5 At all yaw and rake angles that can be achieved, no wetted part of the rudder shall extend further outboard
than planes offset from LCP by 1.500 m both to port and to starboard.
16.6 Only the following rudder movements are permitted relative to the AC75 yacht:
(a) yaw, being a rotation about an axis joining the lower and upper bearing centres; and
(b) rake, being a rotation about a transverse axis through the lower bearing centre

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2 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

No foiling tacks here.

 

Man, they look like they're quite a ways behind the other teams. Maybe Ben should stop mucking around with SailGP and start putting more focus on his Cup campaign. 

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1 hour ago, barfy said:

so please correct me armchair engineer.

was that aimed at me ?

to clarify

i hardly read the posts or analysed either of them

i just saw you couldn't post 16.4 . so i posted it for you

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jeez dont let sD see that

sailing bow down scooting the waves

he will haemorrhage fits

well ok

either that or trumpify it and say it was am's greatest idea ever

 

it does sort of hint at what teams and boat attitudes are getting the best speeds

must have been why the frackers were the first in line chasing te ahi after the break

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15 minutes ago, phill_nz said:

was that aimed at me ?

to clarify

i hardly read the posts or analysed either of them

i just saw you couldn't post 16.4 . so i posted it for you

No cuz, I'm the armchair engineer. Thanks for post. 

I was wondering if I read that correctly, 1.5 m of throw at bottom of the rudder.

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27 minutes ago, phill_nz said:

it does sort of hint at what teams and boat attitudes are getting the best speeds

To be fair, with the boat pitching around like that, you could freeze that video in a dozen different places and illustrate a dozen different “attitudes”. 

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Just now, Ex-yachtie said:

To be fair, with the boat pitching around like that, you could freeze that video in a dozen different places and illustrate a dozen different “attitudes”. 

Which is of course what many others have done with the kiwi images and footage.

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Nope. I havent asked. Nor would I and if I had I wouldn’t be airing it here. 
 

sorry to disappoint.

best to let the team get on with sailing and the rumour mill get on with what it is good at.

 if we all believed everything that’s put on here.. 

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5 hours ago, barfy said:

No cuz, I'm the armchair engineer. Thanks for post. 

I was wondering if I read that correctly, 1.5 m of throw at bottom of the rudder.

Think about it. At all angles of rake, the entire rudder has to fit between TRP and a transverse plane 1.5m forward of TRP.

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8 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Man, they look like they're quite a ways behind the other teams. Maybe Ben should stop mucking around with SailGP and start putting more focus on his Cup campaign. 

Of course, because they would never be testing like NZ does when they splash down....

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3 hours ago, accnick said:

Think about it. At all angles of rake, the entire rudder has to fit between TRP and a transverse plane 1.5m forward of TRP.

Yup, that's what I read. 1.5m of travel for the bottom of the rudder. That's a fair bit of rake available. 

Edit. It will be noticeable during racing if trimmed actively during side profile shots.

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18 minutes ago, barfy said:

Yup, that's what I read. 1.5m of travel for the bottom of the rudder. That's a fair bit of rake available. 

Edit. It will be noticeable during racing if trimmed actively during side profile shots.

Think again, and take the extreme case to demonstrate the problem. Think of those two transverse planes 1.5m apart as two walls containing the rudder at any rake angle. Take a rudder with a rudder wing with a chord length of 1.5m. How much can that rudder rake before it hits the walls?

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Yes, there is width to consider. Eyeballing most stocks appear to be less than 0.5m. So still heaps of travel. With the amount of stock showing above the water I reckon it will be the only indication of trim we've seen in the foiling cycles to date.

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On 1/10/2020 at 3:21 AM, Schakel said:

Ben talks about the deck layout and hull design. Crew are divided in two trenches as he called it.
And they take shelter in these trenches for aerodynamic reasons.
Sounds like World War 1:D
Podcast Road to the America's Cup ep5: AC75 hull design
 

Highly recommend that you all listen to this podcast!

Interesting how he really likes the innovations with the LR design.  He also mentions how the AM and UK designs are more for acceleration in displacement mode.  He also mentioned that the bustles on the NZ and LR boats have two reasons. First is to aid in early lift off (like we have discussed) and a second one was to do with an aerodynamic effect similar to the endplate on the mainsail.  So when the hull is close to the water it could seal off airflow between the high and low pressure sides of the hull.  He says it would give a significant aerodynamic advantage if it can be pulled it off (the AM and UK hulls have greater effective surface area).  He thinks the boat that can best utilize the water end-plating will get the best out of water performance.  Of course. that has to be balanced with the negative effect of hydro drag when the hull touches the water.  He also points out how NZ chose to distribute the weight across larger foils and didn't use a bulb to hold the weight.

What do you guys think?

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21 minutes ago, bigrpowr said:

dammit you're right. :D

They are just off the harbor entrance waiting for a breeze to come in. Previously sailed off Villasimius as Cagliari was becalmed. Big breeze coming end of the week perhaps.

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7 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

They are just off the harbor entrance waiting for a breeze to come in. Previously sailed off Villasimius as Cagliari was becalmed. Big breeze coming end of the week perhaps.

hopefully there is some good video to come from it. thanks for the heads up dude.

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11 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Highly recommend that you all listen to this podcast!

Interesting how he really likes the innovations with the LR design.  He also mentions how the AM and UK designs are more for acceleration in displacement mode.  He also mentioned that the bustles on the NZ and LR boats have two reasons. First is to aid in early lift off (like we have discussed) and a second one was to do with an aerodynamic effect similar to the endplate on the mainsail.  So when the hull is close to the water it could seal off airflow between the high and low pressure sides of the hull.  He says it would give a significant aerodynamic advantage if it can be pulled it off (the AM and UK hulls have greater effective surface area).  He thinks the boat that can best utilize the water end-plating will get the best out of water performance.  Of course. that has to be balanced with the negative effect of hydro drag when the hull touches the water.  He also points out how NZ chose to distribute the weight across larger foils and didn't use a bulb to hold the weight.

What do you guys think?

Another detail he discussed, is that the crew is not switching between the trenches, Gives a lot of advantages, Ben said about it.

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Video and text from Sailing Sardinia

"As already said, given the epoch-making calm that hit the Gulf of Cagliari, the Ben Ainslie team went to tow up to the eastern part of the Gulf, in Villasimius precisely, where a fair Grecale blew. A tow at over 20 knots of speed, all strictly in foils (less than an hour from the port of Cagliari), which was followed by a nice training session.

Many flying turns testify to the high level of preparation achieved by the team and, finally, a video with an acceptable definition that shows all the power of Britannia."

Article link Sailing Sardinia

Really like that leach.

 

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5 hours ago, chesirecat said:

As already said, given the epoch-making calm that hit the Gulf of Cagliari ...

“It’s not usually like this”: the first sentence in any conversation book about sailing :D

 

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7 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Yeah I guess the boat is so good it gets itself in and out of the water now.. 

Acknowledging the issues is a better way forward than sarcasm or denial.

With respect to the rig - it does look pretty good, although at this level that has to be a given if one aspires to success. I'd also suggest that the rigs control system will be a massive part of it as well. One hopes Ineos's back office issues won't hamper them too much in developing and refining the technical aspects of the control systems. 

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2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Acknowledging the issues is a better way forward than sarcasm or denial.

Now this is one of the more ironic things I've read in a good while.

That photo above is gorgeous. Good to see INEOS out smashing it.

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Acknowledging the issues is a better way forward than sarcasm or denial.

With respect to the rig - it does look pretty good, although at this level that has to be a given if one aspires to success. I'd also suggest that the rigs control system will be a massive part of it as well. One hopes Ineos's back office issues won't hamper them too much in developing and refining the technical aspects of the control systems. 

No this is exactly the right place for sarcasm.

 

its a forum populated by 99% of people with out a hope in hell of getting near an AC program spouting off Tin foil theories as gospel.

if you can’t have fun with that and respond accordingly then it’s a sad day.

they lost shore crew? Clearly the ones left are doing a decent job or it wouldn’t be sporting changes and out sailing 

jonno went? Yup he did, and the boat is out and doing it’s thing.

 

these big dramatic oh so terrifying changes that seem so important to some on SA don’t even generate a ripple or a PR release so in terms of significance or being comment worthy for the team, not so much.

best we let the teams do what they do and lap up the pics and images, just keep a bit of perspective eh? 

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just had another look at this thing on this angle

now

take the front part of the fuselage below the windows from the front to the main wing

and where have i seen that design shape before

 

so .. i have to ask .. why isnt it airbus team usa flying this thing instead of ineos

plane or ac75 afterbirth.jpg

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8 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Acknowledging the issues is a better way forward than sarcasm or denial.

With respect to the rig - it does look pretty good, although at this level that has to be a given if one aspires to success. I'd also suggest that the rigs control system will be a massive part of it as well. One hopes Ineos's back office issues won't hamper them too much in developing and refining the technical aspects of the control systems. 

But that’s not the Ineos way. 

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46 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

No this is exactly the right place for sarcasm.

 

its a forum populated by 99% of people with out a hope in hell of getting near an AC program spouting off Tin foil theories as gospel.

if you can’t have fun with that and respond accordingly then it’s a sad day.

they lost shore crew? Clearly the ones left are doing a decent job or it wouldn’t be sporting changes and out sailing 

jonno went? Yup he did, and the boat is out and doing it’s thing.

 

these big dramatic oh so terrifying changes that seem so important to some on SA don’t even generate a ripple or a PR release so in terms of significance or being comment worthy for the team, not so much.

best we let the teams do what they do and lap up the pics and images, just keep a bit of perspective eh? 

There might just be more than 1% here that have either been involved or up close and personal to AC programs over the years.......and as you say, this is exactly the right place for a bit of sarcasm, just take a look in the other AC threads. ;)

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5 minutes ago, Saro Scimitar Sunshine said:

What, these areas ?

Capture d’écran 2020-01-15 à 11.43.31.png

True, wrinkles, not aerodynamic.
The same in another shot taken in the same run.
1388869493_ineostakesflightinCagliari.thumb.jpg.666398787aac06b6a019bccc3cc652aa.jpg

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

Just cos you haven’t “heard it” doesn’t mean they haven’t.

If there had been mass sackings at ETNZ we'd have heard about it.

1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

i guess nothing is official until it’s been vomited out here anyway 

Such contempt for SA, yet here you are.

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51 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

If there had been mass sackings at ETNZ we'd have heard about it.

Such contempt for SA, yet here you are.

Aww does it hurt that not everyone takes this place as gospel?  That it’s actually possible to be here yet not take every word, insinuation or rumour seriously 

 

the contempt is for those that take the subject or themselves to seriously 

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9 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

the contempt is for those that take the subject or themselves to seriously 

Amusing, as you seem to take yourself way too seriously, as well as any criticism of Ineos. 

11 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Aww does it hurt that not everyone takes this place as gospel?

Strange thing to say or think, but no I don't take any religion seriously.

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Just asking for a little perspective rather than the lurching from its fucking amazing to its horrific type of reactions 

 

as for the use  of the word gospel? It’s an expression, It doesn’t imply  or attach a significant religious connotation to the user or the reader

The only way to take offence is to be so overly woke I am supprised you can even bring yourself to Interact with people on a daily basis. 

so I couldn’t give a crap about your views on religion. 

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Unless you want everthing Boris does to be considered the new 'British Way', that's enough.  We're all allowed to have awful leaders sometimes.

That wasn't meant as a slant on you just a humorous observation, it would be way more fun if the team tweeted their disagreements like trump. Also I think based on the fact the UK 1 voted for Brexit and 2 voted for Boris the new "British way" Is buffoonery :-). if thats not a word it is now.

 

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7 hours ago, Saro Scimitar Sunshine said:
 
 
 
1
7 hours ago, Saro Scimitar Sunshine said:

What, these areas ?

Capture d’écran 2020-01-15 à 11.43.31.png

Creases help show what is happening. Mainly its relationships between mast bend/twist and luff curve and how the rig responds, and boat balance. Being the leeward sail I'd hesitate to comment without seeing what the windward sail is doing and spending about a year looking at the boat, which is about the time to get one's eye in and pick up all those tiny subtleties which have big consequences on the race track.

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