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On 1/16/2020 at 4:59 AM, chesirecat said:

Creases help show what is happening. Mainly its relationships between mast bend/twist and luff curve and how the rig responds, and boat balance. Being the leeward sail I'd hesitate to comment without seeing what the windward sail is doing and spending about a year looking at the boat, which is about the time to get one's eye in and pick up all those tiny subtleties which have big consequences on the race track.

Isn’t that the windward sail in the photo?

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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

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Can I also add, after listening to that podcast and hearing Ben Ainslie reveal that he came down to watch Te Aihe, that I am deeply deeply hurt and disappointed that he didn't see fit to notify us all on SAAC and host a Rheineck boat race at Swashies as would surely be appropriate...

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15 hours ago, terrafirma said:

The shore crew rumors intrigue me. Shore crew come and go and who knows what contractual arrangements were made for each and every one of them? Could it also be the need for shore crew has changed as the program moves down the track? So many questions really. 

As I hear it from very close to home then 15 shore/builders have left as all are pissed off - 3 letter word beginning with B being main reason.

 

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22 minutes ago, GBH said:

As I hear it from very close to home then 15 shore/builders have left as all are pissed off - 3 letter word beginning with B being main reason.

 

ssssshhhhhhh, according to @JALhazmat we're all armchair warriors have never been close to or involved with an AC project.

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8 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Sssshhhh stop being cunty ...

and yup we all are, that’s why they are on AC teams and we (you) are sat spaffing over your keyboard when anyone posts a new pic. 

 

You really don't have a clue as to how many boat builders, mast builders, riggers and sail makers post here do you?    ;)

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12 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

That are actually in current employment with AC teams...? 

Multiple.  Carbonologists built this forum, and one of the very best in the world is building Prada and is a 20 year SA follower who constantly sends me funny links from the AC forum.  Same guy built me a gorgeous carbon rolling tray with a cannabis leaf and anarchy symbol on it one year when we were hanging out together in Sardinia.  

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9 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Multiple.  Carbonologists built this forum, and one of the very best in the world is building Prada and is a 20 year SA follower who constantly sends me funny links from the AC forum.  Same guy built me a gorgeous carbon rolling tray with a cannabis leaf and anarchy symbol on it one year when we were hanging out together in Sardinia.  

I'd love for one of them to provide their opinion of two AC75's sailing against each other in anger with huge foil arms/foils hanging off the sides.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 minutes ago, WetHog said:

I'd love for one of them to provide their opinion of two AC75's sailing against each other in anger with huge foil arms/foils hanging off the sides.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

"Good for business"

No I'm not currently a boat builder.

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10 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

In that case they must be pissing themselves at the ludicrous comments on boat performance And  rig optimisation etc by the forum experts.. 

 

Generally yes, same as always. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, WetHog said:

 It has worked for me so far.

 

I suppose if you are not an expert at anything there is no need to establish any credibility? 

I have long told my industry friends not to post here ever. You never know what will give away your identity and you sure as shit don't want to get canned and/or blackballed as a narc or leaker or whatever. 

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On 1/17/2020 at 7:42 AM, barfy said:

Can you have both? High gunwales and bustle?

Yes. The hull restrictions are more about preventing a scow in plan view and disallowing tunnels or anything approaching a multihull, though hollows are allowed (per LR and ENTZ current shapes). As long as a horizontal line only cuts the skin twice.

hollows.png.e8df0e50f82b54ed9f326cf81c596f0e.png

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9 hours ago, RobG said:

Yes. The hull restrictions are more about preventing a scow in plan view and disallowing tunnels or anything approaching a multihull, though hollows are allowed (per LR and ENTZ current shapes). As long as a horizontal line only cuts the skin twice.

hollows.png.e8df0e50f82b54ed9f326cf81c596f0e.png

Thanks Rob. Had another read, there is a vertical projection that can't cut twice as well. And a bunch of minimum buoyancy, but no maximum volume limit from what I see.

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29 minutes ago, Varan said:

Here is a kind of nice photo ripped from a sail-world article on recent training exercises. 

e.jpg.00001037c1944b10ce67903dc9fbcf21.jpg

It must be the direction they are sailing relative to the camera...

The spray from the foil seems to be closer to the bow than the other AC75

Is the foil position on the hills controlled by the rules?

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Rushman said:

Is the foil position on the hills controlled by the rules?

13.5  The entire foil wing and foil flaps must lie between planes 10.000 m and 12.000 m forward of TRP and the entire foil arm and foil systems must lie between planes 9.950 m and 12.000 m.

Where "TRP" is transom reference plane.

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On 1/17/2020 at 4:26 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

I suppose if you are not an expert at anything there is no need to establish any credibility? 

I have long told my industry friends not to post here ever. You never know what will give away your identity and you sure as shit don't want to get canned and/or blackballed as a narc or leaker or whatever. 

It’s understandable.  Having said that, why can’t you be their mouthpiece? Not looking for the AC version of the Pentagon Papers.  Just some general dirt and confirmation or refute of speculation.  Could be a great way to resurrect the SA podcast.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

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25 minutes ago, RobG said:

13.5  The entire foil wing and foil flaps must lie between planes 10.000 m and 12.000 m forward of TRP and the entire foil arm and foil systems must lie between planes 9.950 m and 12.000 m.

Where "TRP" is transom reference plane.

Thanks

 

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10 hours ago, 17mika said:

Some upwind video in mistral conditions (big breeze, small waves)

 

Can easily just be shaky-cam effects but looks like it has quite a bit of decceleration when it kisses?

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8 minutes ago, hoom said:

Can easily just be shaky-cam effects but looks like it has quite a bit of decceleration when it kisses?

Don't think it's the cam, it's quite clear the deceleration when it touches the water and big acceleration when it get airbone again.

Make me think about LR and their windy video. They don't seem to lose as much speed as Ineos but as I wrote then, how much is it due to hull profile less sticky or lower max speed and acceleration which make it look better. We can see a big deceleration but also a big acceleration from Ineos which tend to show they can quickly regain their speed back. Don't know which has best average speed however, and Ineos approach is more demanding for the sailors as those acceleration and deceleration phases present some risks performance wise.

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20 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Windward heel for take off at 36 seconds?

 

Yep. New foot and main control. Italian source commented on different leach profiles to LR. The vid vis 17mika looks like they are trying to get height and dampen the boat down, ht v speed. What do you think? (Chi Harbour breeze flat water up the channels.)

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11 hours ago, Lakrass said:

Don't know which has best average speed however, and Ineos approach is more demanding for the sailors as those acceleration and deceleration phases present some risks performance wise.

Significant differences in AWS and direction too, so lots of extra sail trimming required to optimise SOG.

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20 hours ago, porous_morris said:

its the original photo zoomed out. showing you its the leeward side of the sails. Everything to do with it.... jeez...

Apologies, I was confusing myself

Thanks for referring me back to the original photo

 

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10 hours ago, chesirecat said:

Yep. New foot and main control. Italian source commented on different leach profiles to LR. The vid vis 17mika looks like they are trying to get height and dampen the boat down, ht v speed. What do you think? (Chi Harbour breeze flat water up the channels.)

Is it a new main control as well?

Foot looks smoother. With a curved piece down in the clew.  The previous skirt did fold up quite a bit when they pulled on leech tension as it squashed against the deck. I guess being able to see what the crew are doing and what you're about to hit to leeward is the most considerable advantage.

Not sure any of the photos or videos are good enough for me to tell anything about sail shape or sail control! 

We've actually had quite a bit of nice sailing in Chichester Harbour since they've left the UK. A few storms too mind you. And Italy does look warmer!

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1 hour ago, Brittaniawaivestherules said:

Back on the Jono Macbeth question, there's the idea from someone in the building that he didn't leave for any disciplinary reason. The rumour is that he was quite expensive and wasn't delivering 'value'. Just a rumour.  

You can get fired for not delivering value????? Fuck! I hope my boss isn't on here!!!!

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On 1/15/2020 at 5:50 PM, rh3000 said:

After listening to BA's thoughts about the blister/bustle, I'm thinking we'll see it appear on their B2 (?)

If LR is able to make the end platting work, I would agree.  It all depends on the distance they need to keep off the water and the drag trade off of the hull slicing through the waves in rough waters.  

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Seen it, don't trust his 'practicality' either, a theorist not a sailor maybe. Can you quantify the theorised gain*? How to achieve an airtight seal under a flying boat:blink:

Even if in perfect stable conditions a boat 'endplated-to-the-water' might have a slight advantage over one that was not (which is presumably what their computers are telling them), I think that situation occurs so rarely during a race in a tight course as to be a marginal gain - and if achieving it places constraints on design, sailing options or team resources that could be directed to areas of greater practical potential it becomes a negative.....IMO

But carry on....

*reduction of loss really, as every archimedean boat is already perfectly 'endplated'

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41 minutes ago, nav said:

Can you quantify the theorised gain*?

IIRC, Tom Speer’s site has a graph on the sail’s equivalent aspect ratio vs. a more or less perfect root seal (a full seal obviously doubles the geometrical aspect ratio). I believe the advantage was rather noteworthy - or rather, an imperfect seal carries a big penalty. At the time, this was of interest to me because it was thought that on catamarans, the trampoline was enough to magically double the aspect ratio: as the graph shows, this is far from true

 

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^Thanks

That helps, but is there anything that shows the gain of hull and deck seal vs deck alone - as that's what they are banging on about?

And presumably any gap under the keel must lead to less than 'perfect root seal'? 

So how to quantify that. What is the equivalent aspect ratio with a 5cm gap, 20cm, 50cm etc etc?

That will tell us if it's a/ significant enough to chase and b/ realistically achievable in a racing situation

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I would call BS on the idea of the hull end-plating to the water.
Ineos's hull does a very good job end-plating the rig already with it's side acting like wingets.

Look at the bottom of the AC50's wings they where all closed to the centre end plate with physical contact. A 250mm flight gap would drop the theoretical from 2 to 1.4 while 1.250m flight gap would drop it say 1.25. So yes close is better but is closing bellow 250mm worth the cost of contact?
 

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I suspect increasing effective aspect ratio is far more important for foilers than on conventional boats, because of the fantastic speed they can achieve especially going upwind (in the order of twice TWS, dixit Martin Fischer). This means that the AWA is very narrow and the sail lift component toward propulsive force works at a very unfavorable angle. Instead, sail drag is almost entirely converted into boat drag; since sail profile drag should be negligible (especially with double skinned sails), induced drag is the main factor - and this depends on aspect ratio (as well as on the sail’s lift coefficient, squared)

 

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On 1/23/2020 at 11:17 PM, Brittaniawaivestherules said:

Back on the Jono Macbeth question, there's the idea from someone in the building that he didn't leave for any disciplinary reason. The rumour is that he was quite expensive and wasn't delivering 'value'. Just a rumour.  

That could add up. These AC  two boat campaign's will be eating up cash like no tomorrow and an earlier interview mid last year had BA mentioning costs causing difficult decisions. Running costs on just the boat will be eye-watering. Bertelli complained they spent 20mil euros on software with a reported budget of only 60m, so we can only guess at Ineos's budget on that alone.

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7 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

That could add up. These AC  two boat campaign's will be eating up cash like no tomorrow and an earlier interview mid last year had BA mentioning costs causing difficult decisions. Running costs on just the boat will be eye-watering. Bertelli complained they spent 20mil euros on software with a reported budget of only 60m, so we can only guess at Ineos's budget on that alone.

If they’re spending 20M Euro on software for a yacht race then you’ve got to question their priorities. 
 

Also, letting go good people is hardly the recipe for good cost cutting.

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1 hour ago, chesirecat said:

That could add up. These AC  two boat campaign's will be eating up cash like no tomorrow and an earlier interview mid last year had BA mentioning costs causing difficult decisions. Running costs on just the boat will be eye-watering. Bertelli complained they spent 20mil euros on software with a reported budget of only 60m, so we can only guess at Ineos's budget on that alone.

I wonder what the BA wage and expenses bill is? 

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

If they’re spending 20M Euro on software for a yacht race then you’ve got to question their priorities. 
 

Also, letting go good people is hardly the recipe for good cost cutting.

Unless you have better coming up thru the ranks. many of their team are pro sailors with good people around them externally to the AC campaign, so will have much to offer.

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8 hours ago, chesirecat said:

These AC  two boat campaign's will be eating up cash like no tomorrow and an earlier interview mid last year had BA mentioning costs causing difficult decisions. Running costs on just the boat will be eye-watering. 

Good plan to buy into failGp then.

"Dear husband, you tried with the boat you cleverly named after me. I'm so glad you spent the money earmarked for the AC b2 dev push on a place in a regatta where you can take second place".

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On 1/26/2020 at 10:56 PM, nav said:

I'll take a wild guess here and say that BA's 'endplaying the hull to the water advantage' is small, theoretical and distracting :blink:

Go for it Ben......

Kinda like a failgp team?

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16 minutes ago, mad said:

A days shooting on the country estate?

Fuck me if they aren't doing their best to make it look he's leading an elite unit of country gentleman rather than an AC team... 

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On 1/27/2020 at 6:50 PM, chesirecat said:

That could add up. These AC  two boat campaign's will be eating up cash like no tomorrow and an earlier interview mid last year had BA mentioning costs causing difficult decisions. Running costs on just the boat will be eye-watering. Bertelli complained they spent 20mil euros on software with a reported budget of only 60m, so we can only guess at Ineos's budget on that alone.

I struggle with this as reason. He is one man and the teams now have a much larger number than the last campaigns.

Also, what is Jono doing now? Surely he would have accepted a wage cut before the team flicked him?

I just feel that a financial reason is very unlikely

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