INEOS Team GB

[jaysper 1,264]

1 hour ago, dullers said:

Depending on how this goes makes me feel that GB may not enter the AC again. It will be even harder to get sponsors next time. I was also thinking if this type of racing is a crowd grabber outside of NZ.(Tv as well). You have made the AC your own but am not sure what the future is?  While it is satisfying to any NZ fan watching a competitor get lapped it  is of limited use to future audiences.  Even half a knot difference will lead to blow out leads.  To be honest I miss watching the old mono hulls with the spinnaker handling. I watched the 2003 race from my boat in NZ and it was great. I remember watching the yachts in the build up sailing on just their mains before the start. The speed was impressive for those days.

Some rule changes needed maybe. The choosing of the foil 5 days out seems like a very stupid rule. Lets say 2 of the boats get the foils wrong. Will that make for good watching? After all this is entertainment.  Over half the crew are on board just doing a gym session. The AC has become a hybrid of gym work and tech with some sailors needed.  In the low wind speeds they dont even do half the manoeuvres in case they come of the foils.  All it takes is one yacht to fall into a wind hole and the result is known even with a few minutes of the start. In SF I have always wondered how the US got the extra speed. (I am not in the they cheated brigade) I doubt any team plays a straight bat. Anyway INEOS are not finished yet.

Agreed re choice of boat.

I miss the IACCs and think this stupid class has been responsible for such piss poor  number of challengers.

[shanghaisailor 1,757]

I seem to remember a radical boat being delivered that was promised to be a world beater and for its first practice races against another to the same design rule proving to not perform as the designer expected.

The boat that would 'wobble' in the wrong wave pattern and was quoted as almost impossible to steer at times early in her life went on to dominate Newport in 1983 and ended the longest sporting run in history, let alone uniting a country through sport as never before.

Australia 2 was not as expected when she was launched and Challenge 12 would be more than a match for her at times but she went on to record an unprecedented (and as far as I know unequalled since) string of victories in the round robins before defeating Liberty in the actual America's Cup match.

She also had her share of breakdowns in the actual match itself with the steering letting go in one race and the mainsail headboard almost ripping off the sail in another with the rig jacked way forward to keep the end of the boom off the deck while the bowman was at the top of the mast jury rigging the thing together.

Comparing A2 to INEOS may be comparing apples to oranges but until the Prada Cup comes around it is all just practice and conjecture and we won't really know until then. 

They have a mountain to climb regarding their performance but it has been done before even though this particular mountain does at present look to be of Everest proportions. Then again I suppose the summit of Everest does look pretty daunting when viewed from Base Camp.

Just throwing a pebble in the pond but right now I would bet Jim Ratcliffe is feeling pretty similar to how Alan Bond in the first few days and weeks of A2's life.

Time will tell and it is only those inside the INEOS camp who have any idea of just how serious (or otherwise) their performance issues are. Fun to guess though

SS  

[notallthere 54]

19 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

 

Australia 2 was not as expected when she was launched and Challenge 12 would be more than a match for her at times but she went on to record an unprecedented (and as far as I know unequalled since) string of victories in the round robins before defeating Liberty in the actual America's Cup match.

 

Nzl32/38 likely hold that record pretty handily...

[Miffy 2,144]

Australia 2 was launched in June of 1982 and had more than a full year's workup to get to the shape she was in by August 1983 for the LV. The 12 m rule was well established and she survived a legal challenge re legality - INEOS is limited by their own foil design and allotment and has 3 weeks in a remote base. The difference in technical complexity and time is like night and say - Colin Chapman handdrawing some wings on a Lotus and getting it fabricated in metal vs. Mercedes F1 in 2020 spending 9 months in a wind tunnel and CFD and handlaidup front wing that affects the rest of the car in 2021.

[XPRO 213]

Little bit of Ineos hate going on in Belgium if anyone cares. Apparently all their vehicles were damaged/vandalized last night.... Ineos Grenadiers has confirmed that six of their vehicles were vandalised, including a race car and a team bus, with the words “Ineos will fall” painted on the side.  The damage is believed to be an protest linked to the Ineos Will Fall campaign group, which opposes the environmental impact of chemical company Ineos, which sponsors the cycling team. Not sailing but thought I would bring it forward....

 

 

[shanghaisailor 1,757]

2 minutes ago, notallthere said:

Nzl32/38 likely hold that record pretty handily...

To be honest I didn't bother to check so ready to be corrected.

 

[jaysper 1,264]

35 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

To be honest I didn't bother to check so ready to be corrected.

 

In fairness, Oz II achieved this feat 12 years earlier so was absolutely unprecedented at the time :-)

[jaysper 1,264]

38 minutes ago, XPRO said:

Little bit of Ineos hate going on in Belgium if anyone cares. Apparently all their vehicles were damaged/vandalized last night.... Ineos Grenadiers has confirmed that six of their vehicles were vandalised, including a race car and a team bus, with the words “Ineos will fall” painted on the side.  The damage is believed to be an protest linked to the Ineos Will Fall campaign group, which opposes the environmental impact of chemical company Ineos, which sponsors the cycling team. Not sailing but thought I would bring it forward....

 

 

Eh? Why the fuck?

Is this some stupid anti-Brexit thing?

[nav 591]

read it again slowly....the answer might come

[dullers 467]

1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

I seem to remember a radical boat being delivered that was promised to be a world beater and for its first practice races against another to the same design rule proving to not perform as the designer expected.

The boat that would 'wobble' in the wrong wave pattern and was quoted as almost impossible to steer at times early in her life went on to dominate Newport in 1983 and ended the longest sporting run in history, let alone uniting a country through sport as never before.

Australia 2 was not as expected when she was launched and Challenge 12 would be more than a match for her at times but she went on to record an unprecedented (and as far as I know unequalled since) string of victories in the round robins before defeating Liberty in the actual America's Cup match.

She also had her share of breakdowns in the actual match itself with the steering letting go in one race and the mainsail headboard almost ripping off the sail in another with the rig jacked way forward to keep the end of the boom off the deck while the bowman was at the top of the mast jury rigging the thing together.

Comparing A2 to INEOS may be comparing apples to oranges but until the Prada Cup comes around it is all just practice and conjecture and we won't really know until then. 

They have a mountain to climb regarding their performance but it has been done before even though this particular mountain does at present look to be of Everest proportions. Then again I suppose the summit of Everest does look pretty daunting when viewed from Base Camp.

Just throwing a pebble in the pond but right now I would bet Jim Ratcliffe is feeling pretty similar to how Alan Bond in the first few days and weeks of A2's life.

Time will tell and it is only those inside the INEOS camp who have any idea of just how serious (or otherwise) their performance issues are. Fun to guess though

SS  

Nice post.

[Liquid 645]

3 hours ago, dullers said:

After all this is entertainment. 

Is it?

I thought it was a design race, in sail boats, between far too wealthy individuals paying to watch other people design and sail their boats.

These rich folk probably don't care about your entertainment. 

They would be happy to sweep every competitor in every race by 5 minutes...

[dullers 467]

6 minutes ago, Liquid said:

Is it?

I thought it was a design race, in sail boats, between far too wealthy individuals paying to watch other people design and sail their boats.

These rich folk probably don't care about your entertainment. 

They would be happy to sweep every competitor in every race by 5 minutes...

True. You would have to wonder why they write all over their boats then?  You are mostly right though.

[jaysper 1,264]

4 minutes ago, dullers said:

True. You would have to wonder why they write all over their boats then?

Difference between entertainment and sponsorship though.

Firstly, winning by 5 minutes makes your brand stand out more.

Secondly, for the Billionaires behind these boats the branding is just a way of making sure that they can get a tax write off for their hobby.

[Liquid 645]

3 minutes ago, dullers said:

You would have to wonder why they write all over their boats then?

Ego/vanity project sponsored by your own company via a bump in your marketing budget?

[enigmatically2 1,471]

1 hour ago, XPRO said:

Little bit of Ineos hate going on in Belgium if anyone cares. Apparently all their vehicles were damaged/vandalized last night.... Ineos Grenadiers has confirmed that six of their vehicles were vandalised, including a race car and a team bus, with the words “Ineos will fall” painted on the side.  The damage is believed to be an protest linked to the Ineos Will Fall campaign group, which opposes the environmental impact of chemical company Ineos, which sponsors the cycling team. Not sailing but thought I would bring it forward....

I note the irony of the use of chemicals to paint the graffiti (some of which may even have been manufactured by Ineos).

But not yet as bad as a fan of a team sponsored by an airline criticising a team for its sponsorship by a petrochemical producer.

 

[dullers 467]

3 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Difference between entertainment and sponsorship though.

Firstly, winning by 5 minutes makes your brand stand out more.

Secondly, for the Billionaires behind these boats the branding is just a way of making sure that they can get a tax write off for their hobby.

Cant argue with that.

[Miffy 2,144]

31 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I note the irony of the use of chemicals to paint the graffiti (some of which may even have been manufactured by Ineos).

But not yet as bad as a fan of a team sponsored by an airline criticising a team for its sponsorship by a petrochemical producer.

 

A lot of the anti-fracking stuff is about as grass roots as astroturf. There are unique ecological challenges to be sure - but the per se anti-fracking movement is largely geopolitically beneficial and funded by Russia in the EU & offshore petroleum producers who don't want domestic reserves developed and weaken their cash for gov budget. Kind of like every attempt to create a singular homogenized nuclear reactor for the entire country (following France since the 1950s) - gets a ton of money thrown in the pushback that ends up coming from other sources of electric generation vested interests (e.g. coal and now gas).

[DavidYacht 57]

Didn’t end well for Alan Bond

[RMac 306]

20 minutes ago, Miffy said:

A lot of the anti-fracking stuff is about as grass roots as astroturf. There are unique ecological challenges to be sure - but the per se anti-fracking movement is largely geopolitically beneficial and funded by Russia in the EU & offshore petroleum producers who don't want domestic reserves developed and weaken their cash for gov budget.

Yeah that and regions where you can open your faucet, strike a match and enjoy a free light show.  

 

Aside:  Have you ever met or seen a competitive sportsman who needs to feel real or perceived slights against them to perform their best? (watch the Michael Jordan ESPN doc btw)  If that's the case, Ben should be able to punch the moon out of the sky at this point. I can't stand him but I'm actually starting to feel a little bad for him.

 

[mad 3,970]

1 hour ago, XPRO said:

Little bit of Ineos hate going on in Belgium if anyone cares. Apparently all their vehicles were damaged/vandalized last night.... Ineos Grenadiers has confirmed that six of their vehicles were vandalised, including a race car and a team bus, with the words “Ineos will fall” painted on the side.  The damage is believed to be an protest linked to the Ineos Will Fall campaign group, which opposes the environmental impact of chemical company Ineos, which sponsors the cycling team. Not sailing but thought I would bring it forward....

 

 

 

1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Eh? Why the fuck?

Is this some stupid anti-Brexit thing?

I've made it easy for you.

[Miffy 2,144]

If Ben's on the water performance was the issue maybe INOES might have a chance - but it has never been about Ben's abilities as a helmsman/tactician. 

[dullers 467]

3 minutes ago, Miffy said:

If Ben's on the water performance was the issue maybe INOES might have a chance - but it has never been about Ben's abilities as a helmsman/tactician. 

You have to give the few Kiwis(Not all of you) something to focus on.  I suspect Ben is the best helmsmen there but it is the whole package that wins the race.

[jaysper 1,264]

5 minutes ago, mad said:

 

I've made it easy for you.

Yeah I get that they quoted Greenie credentials, but why suddenly now? The EU has its panties in a bunch over Brexit with Belgium being the epicentre of that ill feeling

Hence I am wondering if there is a deeper underlying cause.

[jaysper 1,264]

2 minutes ago, dullers said:

You have to give the few Kiwis(Not all of you) something to focus on.  I suspect Ben is the best helmsmen there but it is the whole package that wins the race.

He certainly might be. Def better than Barker and Spithill IMO and could be better Burling too for all I know.

However, that won't save him from a dog boat. 

[JALhazmat 1,613]

58 minutes ago, Liquid said:

Ego/vanity project sponsored by your own dodgy regime of choice via a bump in your marketing budget? 

 

[chuso007 731]

2 hours ago, XPRO said:

Little bit of Ineos hate going on in Belgium if anyone cares. Apparently all their vehicles were damaged/vandalized last night.... Ineos Grenadiers has confirmed that six of their vehicles were vandalised, including a race car and a team bus, with the words “Ineos will fall” painted on the side.  The damage is believed to be an protest linked to the Ineos Will Fall campaign group, which opposes the environmental impact of chemical company Ineos, which sponsors the cycling team. Not sailing but thought I would bring it forward....

 

 

 

Sometimes I think there can't be more stupidity on Earth. And I always stand corrected.

[Laurence 13]

On 12/19/2020 at 10:21 AM, Indio said:

Iain Percy would have been my pick to run the Ineos AC Challenge, with Sir Ben concentrating on co-ordinating the design and sailing team.

We know the hydrodynamics drag of the hull matches the ETNZ from the light air displacement race. 

we also know that the top speed is there. 

we know they struggle to get foiling and they struggle through manoeuvres..eg at low speed, really all the same problem. 

Its clearly a screw up as they haven't optomised the boat for these conditions. I wouldn't of guessed how much time you can loose through manoeuvres. 

 The boat might not be that far away.  Are they allowed to reshape old foils? 

 Can they improve the sail shape at low speed.. 

Can the improve foil control in these conditions, do they need more flap authority. 

The risk is always you fix this problem, and reduce your top speed. You then get a week of sailing in heavy wind and your just as screwed. 

 

[Finnfart 39]

12 hours ago, dogwatch said:

He manhandled the photographer, certainly was threatening, certainly unacceptable behaviour. But no evidence of a punch, let alone a "sucker punch". How, come to that, could you jump off a boat, climb on another and deliver a "sucker punch" (an unexpected punch or blow.). Unexpected would have kind of evaporated at the point an obviously furious sailor was climbing aboard. SA does love to exaggerate, layer on layer.

I stand corrected.  I probably read an exaggerated headline as it was widely described as a punching.  But this is IRRELEVANT to the point I was making.

If he "manhandled" his staff like he treated that photographer, the morale effect would be identical.

Love how people like to sharpshoot a point within an argument to try to discredit its conclusion.

This is a distinction without a difference as a lawyer would say.   You might want to look up the "logical fallacies"

[dullers 467]

Now something I was pondering. In the abandoned race between INEOS and TR the Brit boat seemed to be faster in displacement mode meaning to my mind the hull was better for getting speed up before lifting. If I am right does this point to the hull design being ok and its issues lie elsewhere?

[Manfred 62]

4 minutes ago, Laurence said:

We know the hydrodynamics drag of the hull matches the ETNZ from the light air displacement race. 

we also know that the top speed is there. 

we know they struggle to get foiling and they struggle through manoeuvres..eg at low speed, really all the same problem. 

Its clearly a screw up as they haven't optomised the boat for these conditions. I wouldn't of guessed how much time you can loose through manoeuvres. 

 The boat might not be that far away.... 

 

In my opinion the answer is given in Post # 5410 from our Italian friends who are describing a big portion of the problem. Difficult for me to explain in short but I had been there with my Moth sailing and a real expert brought wonders to my boat, working hard on the set up and tuning both centerboard foil and rudderfoil to work in harmony. Before either one was creating drag when trying to race the boat by constantly working on the adjustments. After the boat had been given back to me, it all felt light and easy going. It is an all new technique even for the very best and I think they should have employed Goodison. 

[uflux 662]

24 minutes ago, dullers said:

Now something I was pondering. In the abandoned race between INEOS and TR the Brit boat seemed to be faster in displacement mode meaning to my mind the hull was better for getting speed up before lifting. If I am right does this point to the hull design being ok and its issues lie elsewhere?

So INEOS designed the sweet spot for displacement sailing in under 6 knots.......genius 

[Status quo 32]

48 minutes ago, dullers said:

Now something I was pondering. In the abandoned race between INEOS and TR the Brit boat seemed to be faster in displacement mode meaning to my mind the hull was better for getting speed up before lifting. If I am right does this point to the hull design being ok and its issues lie elsewhere?

I thought this was a race where the idea was for the hull to never touch the water, and primarily act as an aero element to have as low drag to max power factor as possible. Wile yes take of is a factor if you have the right engine and gearbox (sails and control)this is not a problem. This team sadly have not understood aero drag you just have to look at there cockpits to see that as well as many other small bits. Just stick your finger out of the car window at 30 mph and feel the force on something so small, then multiply that by a thousand and you start to understand there drag penalty compared to say Prada. Just look at the runners Prada took off that might add up to over a square Meter of surface area in drag reduction. I will say the first 20 feet of the boat look nice though although I would have softened the hard corners. Hard corners are a reduction in area but more likely to create turbulence that is induced drag, so you might want them on the hull chine to lock in air and water but not on the deck chine were you want the wind to join the sails from the hull cleanly. 

Off topic but it might be worth the aero penalty for them to cut some powerboat cutouts in the keel /skeg to help unstick the bottom of the keel, in take off.

[dogwatch 1,314]

46 minutes ago, Finnfart said:

Love how people like to sharpshoot a point within an argument to try to discredit its conclusion.

I said nothing about your conclusion, one way or the other. 

[dullers 467]

1 hour ago, uflux said:

So INEOS designed the sweet spot for displacement sailing in under 6 knots.......genius 

You added greatly to my understanding.

[mad 3,970]

2 hours ago, jaysper said:

Yeah I get that they quoted Greenie credentials, but why suddenly now? The EU has its panties in a bunch over Brexit with Belgium being the epicentre of that ill feeling

Hence I am wondering if there is a deeper underlying cause.

XR and others are alive and well, lots of pissed of people, plenty to protest about.  Nothing to do with EU.

[mad 3,970]

1 hour ago, uflux said:

So INEOS designed the sweet spot for displacement sailing in under 6 knots.......genius 

Sirena's comment about lowering the wind limit to 4 knots to help Ben out was classic.

[SF Woody Sailor 402]

4 hours ago, RMac said:

Yeah that and regions where you can open your faucet, strike a match and enjoy a free light show.  

 

I hope you are not in charge of anything important.

[JALhazmat 1,613]

3 hours ago, Finnfart said:

I stand corrected.  I probably read an exaggerated headline as it was widely described as a punching.  But this is IRRELEVANT to the point I was making.

If he "manhandled" his staff like he treated that photographer, the morale effect would be identical.

Love how people like to sharpshoot a point within an argument to try to discredit its conclusion.

This is a distinction without a difference as a lawyer would say.   You might want to look up the "logical fallacies"

The key word is “If”  so it’s pretty easy to discredit what you are suggesting ref his staff as you provided nothing it guess work. To what end? 

[Tornado-Cat 1,082]

28 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

The key word is “If”  so it’s pretty easy to discredit what you are suggesting ref his staff as you provided nothing it guess work. To what end? 

He used the conditional, so why do you say Finnfart  discredits ?

[JALhazmat 1,613]

It’s conjecture 

[dullers 467]

5 hours ago, DavidYacht said:

Didn’t end well for Alan Bond

Yes but what a life....

[mako23 632]

4 hours ago, dullers said:

Now something I was pondering. In the abandoned race between INEOS and TR the Brit boat seemed to be faster in displacement mode meaning to my mind the hull was better for getting speed up before lifting. If I am right does this point to the hull design being ok and its issues lie elsewhere?

In short yes, the hull is doing what is should be doing. I think the two Italian guys theory about angles of attack on the foils could be correct. Which would be an easy fix. In a straight line Ineos is not slow, they have a problem with low speed foiling. Present evidence means it’s a bit early to write off Ineos yet. 
 

also whats abundantly clear is the helmsman play a crucial part, being in the right place at the right time is paramount 

 

[chesirecat 715]

The light wind "Eagle wing" foils they didn't use. They used them throughout October, then used a combo of these and the foils used in the Xmas R during November.

Boats need to be measured in 5 days before the race start and apparently, 2 days are needed to change them, so was the forecast 7 days out giving sea breezes developing.

 

[FinnFish 289]

7 hours ago, jaysper said:

He certainly might be. Def better than Barker and Spithill IMO and could be better Burling too for all I know.

However, that won't save him from a dog boat. 

The only forward planning required.

[jaysper 1,264]

3 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

The only forward planning required.

Ouch!

Assuming this cup goes down like it is looking for Ben, I cannot see him getting another shot at the cup. Certainly not as syndicate head anyway.

I was reading somewhere yesterday that he inked a 2 cup cycle deal with INEOS, but I would imagine that it would have some form of out clause for non-performance.

[Finnfart 39]

6 hours ago, dogwatch said:

I said nothing about your conclusion, one way or the other. 

The purpose of the logical fallacy known as sharpshooting is to undermine one of many premises in order to discredit the conclusion.

if it wasn't your intention, it was your result.

And why?   to try to say that BA is a slightly nicer asshole?

Sorry, I don't buy it.  Again, this is a distinction about a difference.  One  that is somewhat uncomfortable for the Brits that want to support their hero and  brilliant sailor who like the rest of us is a flawed human... and manager in this case.

IMHO.

 

[Finnfart 39]

3 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

It’s conjecture 

EXACTLY.    Its fucking conjecture!   Is this news here?

We are trying to make sense of a crazy situation based on what we know about the situation and the players.

I have some 'insight' into the players.  I use it to conjecture how this could lead to the indeputable clusterfuck.

Use your discernment to see if my data supports my point.

So back to the point....  does someone "manhandling" a photographer during the parade home to collect medals sound like a level headed manager?

If you want to be rational... dispute whether level headed manager is useful in the design room of an AC campaign.  But we know the guy can blow his wig when inappropriate.  IF that happens in the management context... it is poison.

You do the math.

[mako23 632]

1 hour ago, FinnFish said:

The only forward planning required.

Is this a economy seat ?? Surely a windsurfer and packed lunch is all he needs. Maybe he can meet up with Alex Thomson another loser with a history of poor performance. They could have a competition to see who is the bigger loser and pissed the most  British sponsorship money down  the Kaiser, 

[MrBump 78]

^ bit harsh that. One of the two is relatable, informative, and does a massive amount to help promote his long-time sponsor

And I'm pretty sure its not British sponsorship money funding his campaign.

[mako23 632]

7 minutes ago, MrBump said:

^ bit harsh that. One of the two is relatable, informative, and does a massive amount to help promote his long-time sponsor

And I'm pretty sure its not British sponsorship money funding his campaign.

Being harsh is a specialty of this place and winding other people up

[jaysper 1,264]

29 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Being harsh is a specialty of this place and winding other people up

Ramen!

[FinnFish 289]

1 hour ago, mako23 said:

Is this a economy seat ?? Surely a windsurfer and packed lunch is all he needs. Maybe he can meet up with Alex Thomson another loser with a history of poor performance. They could have a competition to see who is the bigger loser and pissed the most  British sponsorship money down  the Kaiser, 

 

[pusslicker 663]

3 hours ago, FinnFish said:

The only forward planning required.

Gonna be a lot more than that. Benny hasn't sat in economy for a long time.

[mako23 632]

29 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

 

Ridiculous statement not enough sand there mate 

[jaysper 1,264]

40 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Gonna be a lot more than that. Benny hasn't sat in economy for a long time.

I doubt his ego would fit in the smaller seats. LOL!

[despacio avenue 490]

13 hours ago, XPRO said:

Little bit of Ineos hate going on in Belgium if anyone cares. Apparently all their vehicles were damaged/vandalized last night.... Ineos Grenadiers has confirmed that six of their vehicles were vandalised, including a race car and a team bus, with the words “Ineos will fall” painted on the side.  The damage is believed to be an protest linked to the Ineos Will Fall campaign group, which opposes the environmental impact of chemical company Ineos, which sponsors the cycling team. Not sailing but thought I would bring it forward....

 

 

Not a good year for Ineos in the sporting world. Despite having one of if not the largest budgets of any cycling team, it was hammered in the TDF. 

[Nutta 454]

11 hours ago, Finnfart said:

I stand corrected.  I probably read an exaggerated headline as it was widely described as a punching.  But this is IRRELEVANT to the point I was making.

If he "manhandled" his staff like he treated that photographer, the morale effect would be identical.

Love how people like to sharpshoot a point within an argument to try to discredit its conclusion.

This is a distinction without a difference as a lawyer would say.   You might want to look up the "logical fallacies"

Look, this is SA for fucks sake.

Fact and reality have only a passing familiarity with this place.

Stick to your guns.

He crashed his boat into a dock trying to mate the two, saw a reporter and leapt across the 10m separating them, and head-butted the guy before slapping him senseless.

Way, way, more interesting version of events.

[FinnFish 289]

1 hour ago, mako23 said:

Ridiculous statement not enough sand there mate 

Golf clap sir.

[JALhazmat 1,613]

1 hour ago, despacio avenue said:

Not a good year for Ineos in the sporting world. Despite having one of if not the largest budgets of any cycling team, it was hammered in the TDF. 

Yeah really shit the F1 team they sponsor was crap and the cycling team won the Giro with a new rider. TDF isn’t the only game in town. 

[Nutta 454]

2 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Not only that on the same day he poured petrol on a litter of puppies and set them alight and then drowned another litter of kittens. Later in that night he masturbated while watching Schindler list. 
 

(Never let the truth get in the way of an interesting story)

I was sticking to the vaguely sailing related bits...

[crashtack 334]

On 12/20/2020 at 3:33 AM, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Another great British delta wing ...

 

That is a screenshot from GTA V...

[oatsandbeans 11]

OK INEOS are way off the pace in the light. They have three weeks to get a step change in their light-weather performance. This thing is technically a really complex beast how can they do this? Well it may be that they have multiple elements that are off and the chances of fixing them all is just too difficult ( when changing stuff it is sometimes as easy to make things worse!). But it may be that they one thing way off which is messing up everything else. If they put  this where it should be they may find that the whole thing sorts itself out. It may sound far fetched but sometimes really complex things work like that, it is not a case of incremental changes to many things to fix it but one single variable that is off and the complexity of the system makes it difficult to get to the variable. When you do, the system frees itself ( think of a mechanical system that need a sharp hit with a hammer to get things moving a bit!).

When the job is done, it was "obvious" and the  bright spark that came up with the solution is forgotten about and gets no credit. I hope they do fix it and we get some good racing from them.

[Status quo 32]

1 hour ago, crashtack said:

That is a screenshot from GTA V...

The Vulcan was a very cool aircraft. And remember it was designed in the 40s. The Brits are good at Delta wings. Another example Concorde.

[Nutta 454]

5 minutes ago, Status quo said:

The Vulcan was a very cool aircraft. And remember it was designed in the 40s. The Brits are good at Delta wings. Another example Concorde.

Until the front fell off... 

[enigmatically2 1,471]

On 12/19/2020 at 12:23 PM, enigmatically2 said:

 

The only other thing I'd say is that I think those posters who repeatedly insult Ben clearly show themselves up as not true sailors, or at least not true racing sailors. Because I don't think any true racing sailors would diss Ben any more than I would diss Blake or Elvstrom or any of the greats of our sport. 

I think its worth re-posting the above. Yes I know I am quoting myself but in view of the last page or so of bollocks being posted

11 world titles
4 Olympic Golds & 1 silver
Americas Cup win (which I think is what really hurts some on here because he beat them)
Sail GP 1st
2 Maxi yacht cups
1 Transpacs

You might note that the last 4 lines of that were in teams

So I think the dissing is just from those who don't race, or ignorant trolls, or both

To which ignorance we can evidently add the cause of the concorde crash

[FinnFish 289]

33 minutes ago, Nutta said:

Until the front fell off... 

Thought that was French?

[FinnFish 289]

20 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I think its worth re-posting the above. Yes I know I am quoting myself but in view of the last page or so of bollocks being posted

11 world titles
4 Olympic Golds & 1 silver
Americas Cup win (which I think is what really hurts some on here because he beat them)
Sail GP 1st
2 Maxi yacht cups
1 Transpacs

You might note that the last 4 lines of that were in teams

So I think the dissing is just from those who don't race, or ignorant trolls, or both

To which ignorance we can evidently add the cause of the concorde crash

Yes but at 43 he's too old, as is Spitball, this is young bloke's game Burling, Tuke, Outteridge...

[enigmatically2 1,471]

8 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

Yes but at 43 he's too old, as is Spitball, this is young bloke's game Burling, Tuke, Outteridge...

Why? His role doesn't require any of the physical attributes that age withers

Blake was 42 when he won the Whitbread. 

Jean le cam is 61 and doing pretty well in the Vendee

Both of those could be more easily argued to be young men's games. So could lasers and Finns. 

The helm of these boats? I don't see it

[enigmatically2 1,471]

13 minutes ago, thetruth said:

 

No one will ever question Ben's resume. 

Take a look around this page. Many ignoramuses do

[Mozzy Sails 953]

44 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I think its worth re-posting the above. Yes I know I am quoting myself but in view of the last page or so of bollocks being posted

11 world titles
4 Olympic Golds & 1 silver
Americas Cup win (which I think is what really hurts some on here because he beat them)
Sail GP 1st
2 Maxi yacht cups
1 Transpacs

Is his match racing world champs win included in the 11 world titles? 
Also won the world AC world series leading in to Bermuda. 

[JALhazmat 1,613]

15 minutes ago, astro said:

Yes they were teams, and Ben was along for the ride as he was in San Fran.

But you lost me at Fail GP.  That is a reality TV production, but you seem to take it seriously.

Potty mouth Pete and the dolphin defenders have taken it seriously enough to  have entered (taken wussels dirty coin) 

given his status,  anything other than total domination will be a failure surely?  if old washed up Ben who l can’t drive apparent wind foiling boats can get on and school everyone ol’Pete should be in A different league. 
 

as you say,  that’s  if you were to take it seriously. 
 

[FinnFish 289]

4 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Is his match racing world champs win included in the 11 world titles? 
Also won the world AC world series leading in to Bermuda. 

The AC World Series you say, oooooh...

[kiwin 196]

Ben Ainslie is clearly the best sailor of his generation. But he grew up and achieved all or most of his success sailing boats that topped out at moderate speeds.

The current generation of top sailors are all adept at what I would call "apparent wind pressure seekers"

Burling, for example has grown up sailing high performance apparent wind boats in which the skill set is different from a Finn designed in 1949. Sailing downwind in particular is completely different, and Burling has an almost supernatural ability as anyone who watched him sail a moth at sorrento saw.

[JALhazmat 1,613]

56 minutes ago, kiwin said:

Ben Ainslie is clearly the best sailor of his generation. But he grew up and achieved all or most of his success sailing boats that topped out at moderate speeds.

The current generation of top sailors are all adept at what I would call "apparent wind pressure seekers"

Burling, for example has grown up sailing high performance apparent wind boats in which the skill set is different from a Finn designed in 1949. Sailing downwind in particular is completely different, and Burling has an almost supernatural ability as anyone who watched him sail a moth at sorrento saw.

Then he won’t have any issue destroying the fleet at sail GP then... 

[JonRowe 959]

21 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Then he won’t have any issue destroying the fleet at sail GP then... 

It will be a good test won't it, I mean we know he can sail the cats thats how the cup ended up in Auckland, and we know he can win in one design sailing, thats how he got his gold medals, can he combine the two? Guess we'll find out.

[chuso007 731]

2 hours ago, kiwin said:

Ben Ainslie is clearly one of the best sailors of his generation

FIFY

[The_Alchemist 1,426]

5 hours ago, thetruth said:

 The fact that someone from a different era is current is beyond me......

Spoken as seen by those who want to reinvent the wheel.  

It does require some knowledge to understand that one doesn't know as much as they think they know.

[Tornado-Cat 1,082]

3 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Then he won’t have any issue destroying the fleet at sail GP then... 

Did you give your keyboard to barfidiot ?

[dullers 467]

13 hours ago, mako23 said:

Is this a economy seat ?? Surely a windsurfer and packed lunch is all he needs. Maybe he can meet up with Alex Thomson another loser with a history of poor performance. They could have a competition to see who is the bigger loser and pissed the most  British sponsorship money down  the Kaiser, 

Mako the fake pro Brit is dissing a Brit again.......

[JALhazmat 1,613]

1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Did you give your keyboard to barfidiot ?

Come back to me when you have evidence of an F50 taking off in under 6kts

and no, try again when you can understand sarcasm re the Burling destroying everyone comment. 

[Tornado-Cat 1,082]

8 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Come back to me when you have evidence of an F50 taking off in under 6kts

and no, try again when you can understand sarcasm re the Burling destroying everyone comment. 

I never said that, only in your mind. Strawman argument.

[chesirecat 715]

7 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Why? His role doesn't require any of the physical attributes that age withers

Blake was 42 when he won the Whitbread. 

Jean le cam is 61 and doing pretty well in the Vendee

Both of those could be more easily argued to be young men's games. So could lasers and Finns. 

The helm of these boats? I don't see it

Elvstrom did quite well in the Tornados with his daughter in his 60's. Not exactly an old mans boat

[Laurence 13]

Could Ineos be pulling a fast one and putting on a old set of draggy foils to avoid showing everyone how fast they are. 

All the competitors sit back and have a relaxing Christmas. 

You loose out on some practice races but after seeing Ben foiling on the F50 we all know he isn't the weak link. 

 

[Miffy 2,144]

Good helm and tactics can determine the outcome in boats with parity - but let’s be honest, this is AC. Not a worlds title series. 

Ppl only remember your last race and whether you win or not. Burling had a lot of mental lapse mistakes during the last AC, but no one from his side had public issue with it and Spithill still lost some starts spectacularly. 

Everyone knows Ben is a capable small boat helms and tactician - but hey maybe his style of helm contributes to the design choices and maneuver/hydraulic utilization choices. 

We don’t even know what we don’t know in this boat class yet. 

[pusslicker 663]

6 hours ago, kiwin said:

Ben Ainslie is clearly the best sailor of his generation. But he grew up and achieved all or most of his success sailing boats that topped out at moderate speeds.

The current generation of top sailors are all adept at what I would call "apparent wind pressure seekers"

Burling, for example has grown up sailing high performance apparent wind boats in which the skill set is different from a Finn designed in 1949. Sailing downwind in particular is completely different, and Burling has an almost supernatural ability as anyone who watched him sail a moth at sorrento saw.

I think Ben was pivotol in Oracle's comeback and there are certain roles he does well in in the modern AC, but he is obviously a shite manager. This is the second major disaster in 3 years. He may just have the knack of Paul Cayard to charm rich people out of money, but this is only ending one way.