Jump to content

Recommended Posts

30 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

 

You might note that the last 4 lines of that were in teams

Yes they were teams, and Ben was along for the ride as he was in San Fran.

But you lost me at Fail GP.  That is a reality TV production, but you seem to take it seriously.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 9.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

Slowly working through yesterday's lot

Posted Images

8 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

Yes but at 43 he's too old, as is Spitball, this is young bloke's game Burling, Tuke, Outteridge...

Why? His role doesn't require any of the physical attributes that age withers

Blake was 42 when he won the Whitbread. 

Jean le cam is 61 and doing pretty well in the Vendee

Both of those could be more easily argued to be young men's games. So could lasers and Finns. 

The helm of these boats? I don't see it

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I think its worth re-posting the above. Yes I know I am quoting myself but in view of the last page or so of bollocks being posted

11 world titles
4 Olympic Golds & 1 silver
Americas Cup win (which I think is what really hurts some on here because he beat them)
Sail GP 1st
2 Maxi yacht cups
1 Transpacs

Is his match racing world champs win included in the 11 world titles? 
Also won the world AC world series leading in to Bermuda. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, astro said:

Yes they were teams, and Ben was along for the ride as he was in San Fran.

But you lost me at Fail GP.  That is a reality TV production, but you seem to take it seriously.

Potty mouth Pete and the dolphin defenders have taken it seriously enough to  have entered (taken wussels dirty coin) 

given his status,  anything other than total domination will be a failure surely?  if old washed up Ben who l can’t drive apparent wind foiling boats can get on and school everyone ol’Pete should be in A different league. 
 

as you say,  that’s  if you were to take it seriously. 
 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Potty mouth Pete and the dolphin defenders have taken it seriously enough to  have entered (taken wussels dirty coin) 

given his status,  anything other than total domination will be a failure surely?  if old washed up Ben who l can’t drive apparent wind foiling boats can get on and school everyone ol’Pete should be in A different league. 
 

as you say,  that’s  if you were to take it seriously. 
 

Gradually over the past few decades sport has been commodified.  Football used to be sport, now clubs are franchises delivering 'product'.

It's sailing's turn.  The Vendee Globe, the Volvo, the Olympics and FailGP are all now products to be marketed.  Fuck them I say.  I won't even watch football because it's not real. and I have lost interest in the Vendee the last cycle (was it the Vendee?) when they had the skippers dress up in costume on exit from the harbour.  A Samuri Warrior and that poor stupid Irish guy?  It was fucking embarrassing for all except the sponsors.  I felt sorry for the skippers having to prostitute themselves to that degree. 

Now FailGP  has highly paid trained monkeys to perform in stadiums that real sailors would not otherwise schedule an event in. let alone sail there.  New York for example,  they must have been fucking desperate to pay for Burling and Tuke. 

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ben Ainslie is clearly the best sailor of his generation. But he grew up and achieved all or most of his success sailing boats that topped out at moderate speeds.

The current generation of top sailors are all adept at what I would call "apparent wind pressure seekers"

Burling, for example has grown up sailing high performance apparent wind boats in which the skill set is different from a Finn designed in 1949. Sailing downwind in particular is completely different, and Burling has an almost supernatural ability as anyone who watched him sail a moth at sorrento saw.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, kiwin said:

Ben Ainslie is clearly the best sailor of his generation. But he grew up and achieved all or most of his success sailing boats that topped out at moderate speeds.

The current generation of top sailors are all adept at what I would call "apparent wind pressure seekers"

Burling, for example has grown up sailing high performance apparent wind boats in which the skill set is different from a Finn designed in 1949. Sailing downwind in particular is completely different, and Burling has an almost supernatural ability as anyone who watched him sail a moth at sorrento saw.

Then he won’t have any issue destroying the fleet at sail GP then... 

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Then he won’t have any issue destroying the fleet at sail GP then... 

It will be a good test won't it, I mean we know he can sail the cats thats how the cup ended up in Auckland, and we know he can win in one design sailing, thats how he got his gold medals, can he combine the two? Guess we'll find out.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, mako23 said:

Is this a economy seat ?? Surely a windsurfer and packed lunch is all he needs. Maybe he can meet up with Alex Thomson another loser with a history of poor performance. They could have a competition to see who is the bigger loser and pissed the most  British sponsorship money down  the Kaiser, 

Mako the fake pro Brit is dissing a Brit again.......

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Did you give your keyboard to barfidiot ?

Come back to me when you have evidence of an F50 taking off in under 6kts

and no, try again when you can understand sarcasm re the Burling destroying everyone comment. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Why? His role doesn't require any of the physical attributes that age withers

Blake was 42 when he won the Whitbread. 

Jean le cam is 61 and doing pretty well in the Vendee

Both of those could be more easily argued to be young men's games. So could lasers and Finns. 

The helm of these boats? I don't see it

Elvstrom did quite well in the Tornados with his daughter in his 60's. Not exactly an old mans boat

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Could Ineos be pulling a fast one and putting on a old set of draggy foils to avoid showing everyone how fast they are. 

All the competitors sit back and have a relaxing Christmas. 

You loose out on some practice races but after seeing Ben foiling on the F50 we all know he isn't the weak link. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good helm and tactics can determine the outcome in boats with parity - but let’s be honest, this is AC. Not a worlds title series. 

Ppl only remember your last race and whether you win or not. Burling had a lot of mental lapse mistakes during the last AC, but no one from his side had public issue with it and Spithill still lost some starts spectacularly. 

Everyone knows Ben is a capable small boat helms and tactician - but hey maybe his style of helm contributes to the design choices and maneuver/hydraulic utilization choices. 

We don’t even know what we don’t know in this boat class yet. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, kiwin said:

Ben Ainslie is clearly the best sailor of his generation. But he grew up and achieved all or most of his success sailing boats that topped out at moderate speeds.

The current generation of top sailors are all adept at what I would call "apparent wind pressure seekers"

Burling, for example has grown up sailing high performance apparent wind boats in which the skill set is different from a Finn designed in 1949. Sailing downwind in particular is completely different, and Burling has an almost supernatural ability as anyone who watched him sail a moth at sorrento saw.

I think Ben was pivotol in Oracle's comeback and there are certain roles he does well in in the modern AC, but he is obviously a shite manager. This is the second major disaster in 3 years. He may just have the knack of Paul Cayard to charm rich people out of money, but this is only ending one way.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What level of sandbagging would you go for?

1/ Slightly rubbish

2/ Very disappointing

3/ Utterly hopeless

4/ Very embarrassing - wished you hadn't bothered.

You learn very little about racing the boat if your competitors are a lap ahead. I would be very surprised if INEOS were not trying very hard to be quick and competitive, unfortunately they weren't.

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

I think its worth re-posting the above. Yes I know I am quoting myself but in view of the last page or so of bollocks being posted

11 world titles
4 Olympic Golds & 1 silver
Americas Cup win (which I think is what really hurts some on here because he beat them)
Sail GP 1st
2 Maxi yacht cups
1 Transpacs

You might note that the last 4 lines of that were in teams

So I think the dissing is just from those who don't race, or ignorant trolls, or both

To which ignorance we can evidently add the cause of the concorde crash

Add to that AC45F 2016 overall winner of the series...

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Finnfart said:

does someone "manhandling" a photographer during the parade home to collect medals sound like a level headed manager?

Was he acting as a manager or an olympic athlete during that incidence? Has he manhandled anybody else since, even as a manager?

Leadership is tricky business...

Trying to wear 2 critical and different hats was asking for trouble. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a manager and it's not Ben. Not to mention a squad of 'goons' apparently.

Their boat is slow through manoeuvres, the higher the wind the more this is disguised but they couldn't win a race except by luck IMO. The roles on board look dubious, some seem 'underemployed', maybe others have too much on. Maybe if they can smooth all this out a bit they will reach a point of being semi-competitive

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, thetruth said:

Hey going to be difficult in 4 years time, Ben will be there, no one else. And don't poach NZ designers try and figure it out amongst the advantages a huge country with an unlimited budget. Can't be too hard only 5 million people in NZ

 

Are all 5 million scientists and sailors now?  While you maybe a very inventive nation building a fast sailing boat, it is not really the limits of design and Engineering. We dont need your scientists because we have our own who build things that go under water and can fire rockets into space while under water etc.That level of expertise in NZ does not exist. We do have the expertise to build a fast racing boat and it may not be as fast as yours, but I have yet to see your nuclear submarine.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, kiwin said:

Burling, for example has grown up sailing high performance apparent wind boats in which the skill set is different from a Finn designed in 1949. Sailing downwind in particular is completely different, and Burling has an almost supernatural ability as anyone who watched him sail a moth at sorrento saw.

Burling grew up sailing Opti, P-Class and Starlings.  Switched to 420s when selected to represent nz at the youth world.  Nothing high performance or modern in that background before he transitioned to 49ers for the Olympics.

Most of last 50 odd post of this thread are miles off the mark.  The problem with this and the last GBR campaign have nothing to do with ainsley as a sailor the problem is with Ainsley as a syndicate head.  Some people make that transition well (Conner, Blake, Coutts) most don’t.

The good news is for the second  AC in a row Ainsley has won the “Talk it up cup” and no-one can ever take that away from him.  Maybe we should add it to the list on his Wikipedia page.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, FinnFish said:

Yes but at 43 he's too old, as is Spitball, this is young bloke's game Burling, Tuke, Outteridge...

Those positions are not really physical though.

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Burling grew up sailing Opti, P-Class and Starlings.  Switched to 420s when selected to represent nz at the youth world.  Nothing high performance or modern in that background before he transitioned to 49ers for the Olympics.

Most of last 50 odd post of this thread are miles off the mark.  The problem with this and the last GBR campaign have nothing to do with ainsley as a sailor the problem is with Ainsley as a syndicate head.  Some people make that transition well (Conner, Blake, Coutts) most don’t.

The good news is for the second  AC in a row Ainsley has won the “Talk it up cup” and no-one can ever take that away from him.  Maybe we should add it to the list on his Wikipedia page.

But how old was he when he switched into 49ers? As opposed to how old was Ainslie when he started sailing apparent wind boats?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dullers said:

Are all 5 million scientists and sailors now?  While you maybe a very inventive nation building a fast sailing boat, it is not really the limits of design and Engineering. 

Not all five million are scientists and sailors - the balance are rugby players

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Burling grew up sailing Opti, P-Class and Starlings.  Switched to 420s when selected to represent nz at the youth world.  Nothing high performance or modern in that background before he transitioned to 49ers for the Olympics.

Most of last 50 odd post of this thread are miles off the mark.  The problem with this and the last GBR campaign have nothing to do with ainsley as a sailor the problem is with Ainsley as a syndicate head.  Some people make that transition well (Conner, Blake, Coutts) most don’t.

The good news is for the secend AC in a row Ainsley has won the “Talk it up cup” and no-one can ever take that away from him.  Maybe we should add it to the list on his Wikipedia page.

I am trying to work out how many Kiwi posters on here are in team INEOS?  All this inside information about Ainslie is incredible. If your not in the team it must mean you are talking bullshit. Are you in the team or just a bull shitter? 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

The problem for Ben is reflexes, which slow with age.

IMHO the helm needs to have won some foiling moth champs, which probably rules out most over 30?

How old do you think Glen Ashby is?!?!

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

The problem for Ben is reflexes, which slow with age.

IMHO the helm needs to have won some foiling moth champs, which probably rules out most over 30?

It is not formula 1 reflexes that are needed. Having never been on a foiling yacht i am in no real position to debate this.

Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Most of last 50 odd post of this thread are miles off the mark.  The problem with this and the last GBR campaign have nothing to do with ainsley as a sailor the problem is with Ainsley as a syndicate head.  Some people make that transition well (Conner, Blake, Coutts) most don’t.

100% aligned... Ainsley is simply not a good syndicate/team person.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, astro said:

Yes they were teams, and Ben was along for the ride as he was in San Fran.

But you lost me at Fail GP.  That is a reality TV production, but you seem to take it seriously.

How was he along for the "ride"?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mako23 said:

No I support winners not losers.....such as British Cycling and English rugby 

The ultimate fare weather fan. You are above charted drying height when it comes to being shallow.

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, dullers said:

The ultimate fare weather fan. You are above charted drying height when it comes to being shallow.

To be honest I don’t like Ben, not at all. I think he’s wasted a lot of money that could of been spent better. He’s a good sailor but his management style is under performing. I still hope and wish Ineos does well. If they sort out their  low speed tacking problems and start winning I’ll be very happy camper. 
Dullers feel free to think I hate the Brits I can understand why you think that. There’s no doubt you have been a strong defender of Ineos and I respect that. Maybe I’m a bit more ruthless and less forgiving of poor results.  Take the English rugby team the don’t always win but their professional and still win a lot of games. Nor do they make excuses when losing. Yes there’s been a few disappointments but they do bounce back. All in all the there a great team  and that’s why I respect them and enjoying watching them. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Indio said:

How old do you think Glen Ashby is?!?!

 

It is not fair on Ben to compare him with Glenn.  One of them has won 17 world championships and the Americas Cup.  The other is Ben.

and Glenn is unique at this level of sailing in that he will happily hand the tiller/wheel to someone else so he can focus on sailing the boat.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, mako23 said:

To be honest I don’t like Ben, not at all. I think he’s wasted a lot of money that could of been spent better. He’s a good sailor but his management style is under performing. I still hope and wish Ineos does well. If they sort out their  low speed tacking problems and start winning I’ll be very happy camper. 
Dullers feel free to think I hate the Brits I can understand why you think that. There’s no doubt you have been a strong defender of Ineos and I respect that. Maybe I’m a bit more ruthless and less forgiving of poor results.  Take the English rugby team the don’t always win but their professional and still win a lot of games. Nor do they make excuses when losing. Yes there’s been a few disappointments but they do bounce back. All in all the there a great team  and that’s why I respect them and enjoying watching them. 

I support my team through thick and thin. It is called loyalty.  You are not ruthless at all.  You miss out on the ups and downs of sporting life. I guess if AM win I presume you will be a paid up fan and tell everyone your team won....Just What sort of person would I be if i just supported a team when they are winning? I enjoy the victories not so much the losses but look forward to next time when revenge can be sweet. If you had wisdom you would know Kipling's lines..

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same;  
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

It is not fair on Ben to compare him with Glenn.  One of them has won 17 world championships and the Americas Cup.  The other is Ben.

and Glenn is unique at this level of sailing in that he will happily hand the tiller/wheel to someone else so he can focus on sailing the boat.

I think BA is the most successful Olympic sailor ever and has won an AC. Against the Kiwis as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of elementary-school lunchtime food fights going on, with especially some usual-suspects here attacking BA for his ‘management’ style or suppose’d lack of apparent-wind skill. It’s pretty silly, IMO :) The guy is among the very best in the current generation of sailing rock stars, obviously. 
 

Ineos was not set up as well as the others for some of the light, tricky conditions that eventuated in this ACWS, it’s not THAT big a deal and pretty much everyone across the syndicates say they are targeting/expecting/guessing that the target windspeed to optimize for come the PC and the AC is in the 10-14 knot range. 
 

In a V2 of these AC75 Rules and SI’s they will hopefully take a lessons-learned and make the lower WS higher, plus make foils and rudders easier to select and switch the morning of each race-day. This ACWS event exposed those problems, it was unfortunately a touch ugly - for every one of them. 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

It is not fair on Ben to compare him with Glenn.  One of them has won 17 world championships and the Americas Cup.  The other is Ben.

Kidding... Right?

Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, dullers said:

I support my team through thick and thin. It is called loyalty.  You are not ruthless at all.  You miss out on the ups and downs of sporting life. I guess if AM win I presume you will be a paid up fan and tell everyone your team won....Just What sort of person would I be if i just supported a team when they are winning? I enjoy the victories not so much the losses but look forward to next time when revenge can be sweet. If you had wisdom you would know Kipling's lines..

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same;  

I’m putting my Pom hat on and I happily state who I support Ineos then ETNZ.  I don’t support Prada and AM, At the moment things are hard in England. My son still lives there I’m well aware of what people in the street are going. My ex wife has lost her job and has a mortgage to pay. Even though I’ve remarried I’m still on good terms with her. My sons job is still safe but he’s locked up in London. To make matters worse even Christmas has been canceled. Yet life in New Zealand is back to normal. England needs some good news, we have little to cheer about. The Tories are useless and Labour isn’t any better. We have borrowed so much money that a new generation will have to pay it off. We need a win, something to cheer  about. I remember how good it felt when England won the World Cup in rugby. Winning the Ashes was another feel good experience . What we don’t need at the moment is sporting disasters. The nation is feeling low enough at the moment with COVID going crazy.  Brexit is also coming along at break neck pace. This truly has been a year of discontent. It must be the worst year since the war. So if I seem harsh in Sir Ben, my reply is he’s deserve what he gets. He’s promised results he better start bloody delivering. If he can’t deliver then stand aside and let gets someone who can. Winning the AC would be a great boost to the country. Yes I know sailing is not supper popular but winning would generate interest. I think the nation would embrace a victory and have something to cheer about 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Whatever you might think of Ben his record isn’t exactly poor so getting into a medal winning contest with his record isn’t the best idea. 
 

he also chalked up an AC win too..

If you consider Ben Ainslie's time with Oracle in 2013 a win, do you also consider his time with ETNZ in 2007 a loss? He was the B-boat helm in both cases. It seems that many here weigh Ben's influence heavily in the 2013 win, however, an argument could be made that another qualified tactician would have provided similar results- To be clear, I'm suggesting that it wasn't so much putting Ben in that role, as it was removing JK from it, which was a bigger influence. Ben being involved as a B-Boat driver likely had as much input during the development of the boats during the build-up as he would have as anyone on the A-Boat. I highly doubt he brought game-altering concepts to the table only after he was promoted to the A-Boat in the give it everything we've got assault to retain the cup. That's just not logical.

I don't understand why there is so much importance placed on Ben's trophy case. He can obviously drive the boat, and I doubt that his age and reflexes are the reason the INEOS AC75 has underperformed to date.

Does anyone here really think Ben is the last word in that organization- that Ben is sitting down and telling the designers how to shape the foils, sails, and hull? Those are all team management decisions. To paraphrase Ken Read- They need to close all the doors around them, hunker down, and assess the viability of every option they have available as a team. They aren't out yet, but relying on Ben's past results won't put them back into it either.

The thing I am most surprised by is that INEOS and AM have used their foil allocation- especially considering that they both had test platforms, and they should have been far enough down the development path when it came to committing the designs for their AC75 foils. And actually, if my memory serves me correctly, I believe several around here claimed that ETNZ specifically would be behind the other teams with early test boats who were able to test foil configurations. The other notable thing to mention in this regard, is that INEOS would have carried the software IP from the 2017 AC foils into this, so they weren't exactly starting from a blank sheet as AM did.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

The irony is that Grant Dalton has a great deal of respect for BA, and Ben for Grant. Read their books. If you don't know or believe that then your wrong.

All the NZ sailors would have respect for Ben. As I say it's only the non sailing racing sailors talking this shit

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, atwinda said:

Does anyone here really think Ben is the last word in that organization- that Ben is sitting down and telling the designers how to shape the foils, sails, and hull? Those are all team management decisions.

O geez, doyathink? Lol. BA is not even the CEO. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

All the NZ sailors would have respect for Ben. As I say it's only the non sailing racing sailors talking this shit

How can you know this, that is speculation at its best. Mind due idle speculation with no evidence is the hallmark of this place so carry on. 

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I’m putting my Pom hat on and I happily state who I support Ineos then ETNZ.  I don’t support Prada and AM, At the moment things are hard in England. My son still lives there I’m well aware of what people in the street are going. My ex wife has lost her job and has a mortgage to pay. Even though I’ve remarried I’m still on good terms with her. My sons job is still safe but he’s locked up in London. To make matters worse even Christmas has been canceled. Yet life in New Zealand is back to normal. England needs some good news, we have little to cheer about. The Tories are useless and Labour isn’t any better. We have borrowed so much money that a new generation will have to pay it off. We need a win, something to cheer  about. I remember how good it felt when England won the World Cup in rugby. Winning the Ashes was another feel good experience . What we don’t need at the moment is sporting disasters. The nation is feeling low enough at the moment with COVID going crazy.  Brexit is also coming along at break neck pace. This truly has been a year of discontent. It must be the worst year since the war. So if I seem harsh in Sir Ben, my reply is he’s deserve what he gets. He’s promised results he better start bloody delivering. If he can’t deliver then stand aside and let gets someone who can. Winning the AC would be a great boost to the country. Yes I know sailing is not supper popular but winning would generate interest. I think the nation would embrace a victory and have something to cheer about 

You don't have a Pom hat. If you understood Poms you would realise a sailing race is of no interest over here. We dont plunge into despair over the loss of a little known sailing race.  Apart from soccer interest in every other sport is fairly low key. Sailing is at the bottom of the ladder.  Even losing the Rugby World cup final was not a big event in the mind of most Britons. Winning the AC or not only matters to about 10 people over here. Being a British fan is fun regardless of a win or a loss. That is why the Kiwis or Australians dont have a Balmy Army in cricket. We support through thick and thin and know sport is for fun.  We will not be affected by a win or a loss. If Ben wins he might become a Dame that is all. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, atwinda said:

If you consider Ben Ainslie's time with Oracle in 2013 a win, do you also consider his time with ETNZ in 2007 a loss? He was the B-boat helm in both cases. It seems that many here weigh Ben's influence heavily in the 2013 win, however, an argument could be made that another qualified tactician would have provided similar results- To be clear, I'm suggesting that it wasn't so much putting Ben in that role, as it was removing JK from it, which was a bigger influence. Ben being involved as a B-Boat driver likely had as much input during the development of the boats during the build-up as he would have as anyone on the A-Boat. I highly doubt he brought game-altering concepts to the table only after he was promoted to the A-Boat in the give it everything we've got assault to retain the cup. That's just not logical.

I don't understand why there is so much importance placed on Ben's trophy case. He can obviously drive the boat, and I doubt that his age and reflexes are the reason the INEOS AC75 has underperformed to date.

Does anyone here really think Ben is the last word in that organization- that Ben is sitting down and telling the designers how to shape the foils, sails, and hull? Those are all team management decisions. To paraphrase Ken Read- They need to close all the doors around them, hunker down, and assess the viability of every option they have available as a team. They aren't out yet, but relying on Ben's past results won't put them back into it either.

The thing I am most surprised by is that INEOS and AM have used their foil allocation- especially considering that they both had test platforms, and they should have been far enough down the development path when it came to committing the designs for their AC75 foils. And actually, if my memory serves me correctly, I believe several around here claimed that ETNZ specifically would be behind the other teams with early test boats who were able to test foil configurations. The other notable thing to mention in this regard, is that INEOS would have carried the software IP from the 2017 AC foils into this, so they weren't exactly starting from a blank sheet as AM did.

I think most can agree that Ben is a good sailor if not a great sailor. He’s the logical choice for steering the boat. However Ineos performance in the Christmas racing series was terrible. After such a shocking result it’s only natural that a discussion on how Ben is running the syndicate would happen. As the head of the syndicate the buck stops with him. He has to take responsibility for how things have turned out. He didn’t design the boat but he did hire the designers. He can’t just hire a designer and then wash his hand of all responsibilities.  I’ve also given some stick to Nick Holroyd the designer. He may be culpable than anyone. 
 

Maybe I’m a bit more hard nosed than some, but it’s just not acceptable to have such a large budget and perform so badly.  It’s only natural and also proper that hard questions should  to be asked. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, dullers said:

You don't have a Pom hat. If you understood Poms you would realise a sailing race is of no interest over here. We dont plunge into despair over the loss of a little known sailing race.  Apart from soccer interest in every other sport is fairly low key. Sailing is at the bottom of the ladder.  Even losing the Rugby World cup final was not a big event in the mind of most Britons. Winning the AC or not only matters to about 10 people over here. Being a British fan is fun regardless of a win or a loss. That is why the Kiwis or Australians dont have a Balmy Army in cricket. We support through thick and thin and know sport is for fun.  We will not be affected by a win or a loss. If Ben wins he might become a Dame that is all. 

You have an amazing ability to never be able to see another see another person point of view. It’s not up to you to tell me if I have a Pom hat or not. My British citizenship is that all matters. I have citizenship and nothing you can say can discount this fact. You can’t seem to understand my dislike of Ben does not mean that I’m anti British.  I also know lots of people like rugby in England. I lived in Surrey where rugby was popular. Your view of England seems very northern to me which I suspect you are. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, dullers said:

Are all 5 million scientists and sailors now?  While you maybe a very inventive nation building a fast sailing boat, it is not really the limits of design and Engineering. We dont need your scientists because we have our own who build things that go under water and can fire rockets into space while under water etc.That level of expertise in NZ does not exist. We do have the expertise to build a fast racing boat and it may not be as fast as yours, but I have yet to see your nuclear submarine.

split your own atom fuckwit !!!

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, thetruth said:

I think the most expensive and culpable is the endless love affair for Grant Simmer. Was passed his used by date 8 years ago. The fact that someone from a different era is current is beyond me......

8 years ago? Was he not heading the Alinghi cat team that got thumped in an open book design contest vs the tri? No doubt an outstanding sailor with plenty of silverware, like Ben, but in an open design context away from one design and limited fields does he(they) have the open mind to ask the right questions or just believe the designer/s and the numbers handed out? 
A new class with a blank sheet of paper and instead of seeking out sailors and designers familiar with these apparent wind, foil/flap types they go with the past. Even the best (sadly without their best acquisition in Jenson benched), won’t make up for a design team that lacks relevant input and questioning from outside of the loop.

The other 3 teams have Moth world podium sailors in their engine room. INEOs had one and dumped him to the bench...
 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, mako23 said:

You have an amazing ability to never be able to see another see another person point of view. It’s not up to you to tell me if I have a Pom hat or not. My British citizenship is that all matters. I have citizenship and nothing you can say can discount this fact. You can’t seem to understand my dislike of Ben does not mean that I’m anti British.  I also know lots of people like rugby in England. I lived in Surrey where rugby was popular. Your view of England seems very northern to me which I suspect you are. 

I will message you. Lets keep this a boat thread.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dullers said:

You don't have a Pom hat. If you understood Poms you would realise a sailing race is of no interest over here. We dont plunge into despair over the loss of a little known sailing race.  Apart from soccer interest in every other sport is fairly low key. Sailing is at the bottom of the ladder.  Even losing the Rugby World cup final was not a big event in the mind of most Britons. Winning the AC or not only matters to about 10 people over here. Being a British fan is fun regardless of a win or a loss. That is why the Kiwis or Australians dont have a Balmy Army in cricket. We support through thick and thin and know sport is for fun.  We will not be affected by a win or a loss. If Ben wins he might become a Dame that is all. 

A Brit that refers soccer as soccer, and doesn't think the antipodeans don't have an equivalent to what he thinks is called the Balmy Army?

Not sure who you think you are fooling... But we do know why...

 

giphy.gif

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

A Brit that refers soccer as soccer, and doesn't think the antipodeans don't have an equivalent to what he thinks is called the Balmy Army?

Not sure who you think you are fooling... But we do know why...

 

giphy.gif

He called football soccer?

I'm more pom than he is.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dullers said:

It is not formula 1 reflexes that are needed. Having never been on a foiling yacht i am in no real position to debate this.

Says it all.
The faster your reflexes the better you sail a foiling moth.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, dullers said:

Are all 5 million scientists and sailors now?  While you maybe a very inventive nation building a fast sailing boat, it is not really the limits of design and Engineering. We dont need your scientists because we have our own who build things that go under water and can fire rockets into space while under water etc.That level of expertise in NZ does not exist. We do have the expertise to build a fast racing boat and it may not be as fast as yours, but I have yet to see your nuclear submarine.

And yet you can't control COVID. Try again.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, FinnFish said:

And yet you can't control COVID. Try again.

I am glad the death of people in our country allows you to get off on proving how wonderful you are.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, dullers said:

Are all 5 million scientists and sailors now?  While you maybe a very inventive nation building a fast sailing boat, it is not really the limits of design and Engineering. We dont need your scientists because we have our own who build things that go under water and can fire rockets into space while under water etc.That level of expertise in NZ does not exist. We do have the expertise to build a fast racing boat and it may not be as fast as yours, but I have yet to see your nuclear submarine.

Just to be pedantic, you build these things, then they leak embarrassingly and have to go back to the builders for year long refits. But in the past you were quite good at square sail rigs etc... 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dullers said:

I am glad the death of people in our country allows you to get off on proving how wonderful you are.

No one tell him what nuclear warheads launched from submarines are for...

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, mako23 said:

How can you know this, that is speculation at its best. Mind due idle speculation with no evidence is the hallmark of this place so carry on. 

Read their books. Ben worked extensively with ENTZ, and got a lot out of it, loved etc. read his book.......its not hard to know stuff, just read. Cheers.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

In a V2 of these AC75 Rules and SI’s they will hopefully take a lessons-learned and make the lower WS higher, plus make foils and rudders easier to select and switch the morning of each race-day. This ACWS event exposed those problems, it was unfortunately a touch ugly - for every one of them. 

They should bin code zeros and the weight of carrying them and instead allow a second pair of foils to be measured in for each regatta. Wind limits could then probably stay the same. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Nutta said:

Just to be pedantic, you build these things, then they leak embarrassingly and have to go back to the builders for year long refits. But in the past you were quite good at square sail rigs etc... 

Which of our subs leak? Tis news to me.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone else been watching the Viaduct webcam lately.  At least twice over the the past few days Ineos has trial fitted its mast and (what looks like) played around with foil settings before going out for  practice.  Definitely the most active oboat in the xmas leadup.  MikeNZ and Weta where are you?  We need more on the ground info and less of the usual tossers sounding off at each other.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, 167149 said:

I think thats the scot's you are referring to there

It is a UK team and I am sure a square rig has been around a lot longer than the UK. You could have used google before attributing the square rig to the Scots.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

In a V2 of these AC75 Rules and SI’s they will hopefully take a lessons-learned and make the lower WS higher, plus make foils and rudders easier to select and switch the morning of each race-day. This ACWS event exposed those problems, it was unfortunately a touch ugly - for every one of them.

Nah, if I was the DIC (dictator-in-charge) I'd go with

  • NO wind speed limitations.
  • NO minimum mainsail area, encourage reefing.
  • NO battery powered hydraulics - human power only.
  • NO option to change foils, not even 120 hrs before a race. Sails - OK.
  • NO tiny 25 minute course designed for the TL:DW casual TV mob.
  • NO geo-restricted content that no-one can watch if not in the host country.

Fortunately (?), I'm not the DIC.   :lol:

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Nah, if I was the DIC (dictator-in-charge) I'd go with

  • NO wind speed limitations.
  • NO minimum mainsail area, encourage reefing.
  • NO battery powered hydraulics - human power only.
  • NO option to change foils, not even 120 hrs before a race. Sails - OK.
  • NO tiny 25 minute course designed for the TL:DW casual TV mob.
  • NO geo-restricted content that no-one can watch if not in the host country.

Fortunately (?), I'm not the DIC.   :lol:

I'd take all of that, but I don't think they need another 6 or 7 grinders just to move the foils, happy enough with a bettery for that.  If canting keelers are allowed to move their bits about with power then the AC should be able to as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Boybland said:

I'd take all of that, but I don't think they need another 6 or 7 grinders just to move the foils, happy enough with a bettery for that.  If canting keelers are allowed to move their bits about with power then the AC should be able to as well.

Understand what you're saying, but I'm thinking about the possible flow-down effects longer term. IMOCAs have foils, and they're sailing solo around the world without a very long extension cord to recharge batteries. Apparently, it can be done single-handed.

Link to post
Share on other sites