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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

And so it begins. Image credit and copyright Allesandro Spiga  

Posted Images

1 hour ago, jaysper said:

These foils just seem so agricultural compared to the others.

A bit like comparing the wings on Australia II to the rather more refined wings on the IACCs.

I am not convinced these are INEOS' salvation.

Indeed, as they were the very first set. 

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7 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Not sure what bollocks you are trying to present,. But we don't launch from UK because of the way the earth rotates. But in terms of launching sattelites we have put 34 up in one night. 

The uk is one of the biggest manufacturers of satellites

Actually I was responding to one stupid comment with another one, this is Sailing Anarchy...

But now your here...

What launch vehicle was that? I'm genuinely curious as I'm really not aware of a UK built launch vehicle used any time recently.

As for launching from the UK itself, it's pretty similar to New Zealand as far as the way the earth rotates and I know there were plans for UK launches a few years ago but they were shelved so it's no just the location preventing it.

As for why I said, well that is obvious if you read back to the implication by the other poster that.

A: Space programs are somehow linked to America's Cup campaigns.

B: New Zealand doesn't have one.

As for the first one, funnily enough the New Zealand space program is far closer to the AC than anyone else's given the materials the rocket bodies are made of and where the production capability for that in New Zealand largely comes from.

The second one is just flat out wrong.

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3 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

Now now... ALL submarines will leak a tiny bit no matter whether they are British, American, Russian.... 

Now yes, T-boats have had lackluster reliability lately, but that is obvious considering their age and the fact they’re currently being replaced. Why upgrade something thats going to the scrapper in about 5/6 years. Also, the Silent Service hasn’t had an incident like Thresher or Scorpion..... 

They will be retired but not scrapped.  The UK has an issue with figuring out how to scrap their nuclear boats.  Their first nuclear sub is still waiting to be scrapped and it was decommissioned in 1980. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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42 minutes ago, Boybland said:

Actually I was responding to one stupid comment with another one, this is Sailing Anarchy...

But now your here...

What launch vehicle was that? I'm genuinely curious as I'm really not aware of a UK built launch vehicle used any time recently.

As for launching from the UK itself, it's pretty similar to New Zealand as far as the way the earth rotates and I know there were plans for UK launches a few years ago but they were shelved so it's no just the location preventing it.

As for why I said, well that is obvious if you read back to the implication by the other poster that.

A: Space programs are somehow linked to America's Cup campaigns.

B: New Zealand doesn't have one.

As for the first one, funnily enough the New Zealand space program is far closer to the AC than anyone else's given the materials the rocket bodies are made of and where the production capability for that in New Zealand largely comes from.

The second one is just flat out wrong.

And some of the AC boat builders from ETNZ went working for RocketLabs after Bermuda...

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54 minutes ago, Boybland said:

As for the first one, funnily enough the New Zealand space program is far closer to the AC than anyone else's given the materials the rocket bodies are made of and where the production capability for that in New Zealand largely comes from.

Where are the rocket bodies produced in NZ?

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11 minutes ago, OldWoodenShip said:

Where are the rocket bodies produced in NZ?

<<In October 2018, Rocket Lab revealed their new manufacturing facility in  Auckland, New Zealand.[72] It is intended for the production of propellant tanks and stage builds, and is in charge of the overall integration of launch vehicles for Launch Complex 1>>

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On 12/25/2020 at 1:16 PM, jaysper said:

In what world was external hinges ever a good idea?

Never seemed to make sense to me.

On airliners they use them because when you extend the flaps it also increases wing area -> small wings with low camber at high speed, big wings with high camber at low speed & it seems to be what they're trying to do with those first foils (also at high speed the hinge covers act as anti-shock bodies helping delay transonic drag issues)

In the Basher implementation with a bunch of fairly large area hinges I can't see how there can be a net wetted surface advantage over just a slightly bigger flap with inline hinge which appears to be what they evolved to. (and yet it was back on the inner section of the cranked foils)

 

7 hours ago, nroose said:

to me it seems clear that they need to reduce drag rather than increase power

This is my thinking on the need to return to the first foils: they have been running the biggest set -> most wetted drag at low speed.

The plan appears to be to get more low-speed lift -> take-off earlier at the expense of top end speed but they appear to be on the wrong side of a vicious cycle so they actually have a harder time getting liftoff, while TNZ with the currently smallest foils don't seem to have an issue reaching take-off speed.

4 hours ago, jaysper said:

These foils just seem so agricultural compared to the others.

That was what I said at the time.

They did refine them a fair bit & IMO they look nicer than the cranked or big delta ones.

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7 hours ago, RobG said:

All launches at Mahia for the last two years have been by Rocket Labs (US) using its Electron launch vehicle and NRO (US government) funding in support of US national security.

I'm sure they're very grateful for NZ supplying such a picturesque location.

 It could be you're stupid; more likely you've chosen to be wildly selective with your facts.

Rocket Lab was founded in NZ and it's founder Peter Beck remains as CEO and CTO.

Since 2006, Beck has grown Rocket Lab to become a globally-recognized industry leader in space and a billion-dollar company employing world-class engineers and technicians. With growth and venture capital backing he incorporated in the US seven years ago and moved his HQ to Huntington Beach.

Beck established Rocket Lab’s Electron orbital launch program in 2013. Her also oversaw the development of the world’s first and only private orbital launch range, located on New Zealand's Māhia Peninsula. He played a crucial role in establishing international treaties and legislation to enable orbital launch capability from New Zealand. That capability was realized in January 2018 with Rocket Lab’s first orbital launch of the Electron rocket.  The company now has five launch sites around the world but its primary location is here on the Māhia Peninsula.

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An Ineos question 

Has anyone seen any action around the Ineos compound. Carbon fibre suppliers, vans from boatbuilders etc. Guys walking around with large chainsaws. Doesn’t have to be the true the best rumours are never let the truth get in the way. 

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7 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Indeed, as they were the very first set. 

If INEOS are to stage a comeback, it will be by shaving their existing foils, improved technique and perhaps something in the rig.

They are clearly doing something wrong but I sure as shit don't have the knowledge to say what.

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

An Ineos question 

Has anyone seen any action around the Ineos compound. Carbon fibre suppliers, vans from boatbuilders etc. Guys walking around with large chainsaws. Doesn’t have to be the true the best rumours are never let the truth get in the way. 

My cat says he saw them rolling in ETNZ B1...

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9 hours ago, jaysper said:

These foils just seem so agricultural compared to the others.

A bit like comparing the wings on Australia II to the rather more refined wings on the IACCs.

I am not convinced these are INEOS' salvation.

Think you're missing the potential.

 

FB_IMG_1608667795359.thumb.jpg.9835ede8caf51f1fed45747d3d15da42.jpg

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I am looking forward to seeing what they come up with!

Did anyone figure out what was going on with the water coming out of the foils on INEOS? Seems like if they had water in them, that might be part of the problem?! Perhaps I missed that part of the enormous amount of text around here.

I don't think they are all that far off, but making any progress faster than the other teams will be a pretty serious challenge.

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1 hour ago, nroose said:

I am looking forward to seeing what they come up with!

Did anyone figure out what was going on with the water coming out of the foils on INEOS? Seems like if they had water in them, that might be part of the problem?! Perhaps I missed that part of the enormous amount of text around here.

I don't think they are all that far off, but making any progress faster than the other teams will be a pretty serious challenge.

All the AC75s seem to drain some water from their foils.

INEOS just more than the rest.

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5 hours ago, mako23 said:

An Ineos question 

Has anyone seen any action around the Ineos compound. Carbon fibre suppliers, vans from boatbuilders etc. Guys walking around with large chainsaws. Doesn’t have to be the true the best rumours are never let the truth get in the way. 

A few 30 yard dumpsters and a travel agent

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On 12/24/2020 at 8:22 PM, mako23 said:

Same to you in about 4 hours. For many people who can’t be with their family due to COVID restrictions in England I wish them solace and they find some mirth in these trying times. 

Many thanks for the kind thought, but from what I've observed it seems that most people here have responded to the Xmas COVID restrictions either by ignoring them or by finding a way to persuade themselves that they're exempt.

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8 hours ago, nroose said:

I am looking forward to seeing what they come up with!

Did anyone figure out what was going on with the water coming out of the foils on INEOS? Seems like if they had water in them, that might be part of the problem?! Perhaps I missed that part of the enormous amount of text around here.

I don't think they are all that far off, but making any progress faster than the other teams will be a pretty serious challenge.

There is some fancy Doppler? speed log inside that needs to be encased in water to work properly. https://www.ineosteamuk.com/en/articles/331_Measuring-speed-through-water-with-Nortek.html

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1 hour ago, ed__miller said:

There is some fancy Doppler? speed log inside that needs to be encased in water to work properly. https://www.ineosteamuk.com/en/articles/331_Measuring-speed-through-water-with-Nortek.html

I thought that would be sealed given it needs to be acoustically transparent to the sensor which is why its filled with the same/similar salinity water as in the gulf, but you also wouldn't want any air bubbles for the same reasons?

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On 12/25/2020 at 12:56 PM, dullers said:

Does it operate under water?

Odd kwestchin to be asking

 

 

 

at 2am on Xmas day


 

 

 

(at leest, that iz what tym it woz,

 

 

 

in Grate Britten)

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5 hours ago, Dave S said:

Many thanks for the kind thought, but from what I've observed it seems that most people here have responded to the Xmas COVID restrictions either by ignoring them or by finding a way to persuade themselves that they're exempt.

Everybody I know has stayed home and not travelled anywhere.

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5 hours ago, ed__miller said:

There is some fancy Doppler? speed log inside that needs to be encased in water to work properly. https://www.ineosteamuk.com/en/articles/331_Measuring-speed-through-water-with-Nortek.html

If you fit a Doppler to a tractor....It's still a tractor 

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If they are allowed to modify up to 20% of the mass of the foils, could the first set of foils actually be drastically redesigned by taking a little weight from the bulb and adding it to the foil to create a far larger foil area?

 

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17 minutes ago, Tvick1 said:

If they are allowed to modify up to 20% of the mass of the foils, could the first set of foils actually be drastically redesigned by taking a little weight from the bulb and adding it to the foil to create a far larger foil area?

 

They already have the largest foil area...:lol:

At this point, it would just be more drag.

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The eagle wing foils were thought to be good for light winds by our Italian friends, who compared these against the heavier range anhedral ones used in the Xmas cup. They spent October sailing with them and November trialing both designs

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8 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

And yet with all that drag they managed a fastest top speed on one of the days? How does that work smarty pants? 
 

Maybe they mistook a seagull for a Brexitannic albatross

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

And yet with all that drag they managed a fastest top speed on one of the days? How does that work smarty pants? 
 

if it was all so hugely draggy they couldn’t  have 

VMG is the word. They spent many hours reaching around fast off Portsmouth and Cagliari. The problems started when they tried sailing upwind and downwind.

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2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

And yet with all that drag they managed a fastest top speed on one of the days? How does that work smarty pants? 
 

if it was all so hugely draggy they couldn’t  have 

How ever you look at it. It is just more wetted surface area. I don't make physics up :rolleyes:

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5 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

And yet with all that drag they managed a fastest top speed on one of the days? How does that work smarty pants? 
 

if it was all so hugely draggy they couldn’t  have 

Hah as they say "every dog has its day."

Basher Ben and Haemorrhoid Holroyd should have spent more time on Youtube . 

 

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On 12/26/2020 at 7:00 AM, rh3000 said:

You might want to do some more reading on Rocket Labs.

The rationale for moving their corporation location to the US is also kinda obvious once you think about for a bit. ;)

So the CEO is a Kiwi, clearly he wasn't going to build a successful rocket company if it stayed in NZ, that much is obvious. It's something of a vanity project to chose to launch space vehicles from a geographically shitty location that cops a 22% initial velocity hit (Cape Canaveral is 11° closer to the equator).

I guess South Africans can claim credit for Tesla's success.

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21 minutes ago, RobG said:

It's something of a vanity project to chose to launch space vehicles from a geographically shitty location that cops a 22% initial velocity hit (Cape Canaveral is 11° closer to the equator).

That seals it.  There's no value in reading your posts on anything including sailing.  You fail to understand that your "22% initial velocity hit" is negated by the advantage of the southern/polar orbit targets.  Nor that the "velocity hit" can be compensated by a lower payload.  Which when you consider the fact that satellites are being made smaller and smaller for a  number of reasons the disadvantages of launching away from the equator become minimal.

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On 12/26/2020 at 7:08 AM, Kate short for Bob said:

Yes in theory because the speed of rotation of the earth at the equator is faster than at the higher latitudes.  The maximum difference is 500km/h which in the overall scheme of things is stuff all.

At the equator it's about 460 m/s (1,670 km/h), at poles it's zero so the maximum difference is 1,670 km/h. Low orbit speed is about 27,000 km/h.

The nations that are space capable are well away from the equator, their facilities are overwhelmingly defence oriented so that is their primary consideration. Proximity to the equator is secondary, but still very important. Why did the poms launch from Aus in the 70s? Why does the US launch from Florida? Why are nearly all the facilities on your map located as close to the equator as practical within the bounds of the mainland States that own them (except for the French, of course)?

FFS, this whole discussion is absurd. I initially responded to a comment "But we don't launch from UK because of the way the earth rotates", pointing out the practical issues. Next come a bunch of dick waving Kiwis extolling the virtues of launching from remote islands in relatively high latitudes.

I'm off sailing.

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2 hours ago, RobG said:

So the CEO is a Kiwi, clearly he wasn't going to build a successful rocket company if it stayed in NZ, that much is obvious. It's something of a vanity project to chose to launch space vehicles from a geographically shitty location that cops a 22% initial velocity hit (Cape Canaveral is 11° closer to the equator).

I guess South Africans can claim credit for Tesla's success.

Wow your a bitter person

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7 hours ago, winchfodder said:

VMG is the word. They spent many hours reaching around fast off Portsmouth and Cagliari. The problems started when they tried sailing upwind and downwind.

VMG is an abbreviation;-) 

the repeated thing is the boat is slow because the foils are draggy,

slow foils don’t register top speeds during Racing 

I wasn’t saying bugger all about VMG as that is a different matter and more relevant to winning a race than outright top end speed but you can’t have top speeds if your foils are as draggy as the peanut gallery are making out. 

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3 hours ago, Salty Seacock said:

Did BMC Leyland design and build this boat or what? Sad really, England was once a great sailing nation. Now, they're a joke. 

I'm not so sure it's about the design, per se.  I can't get my head around the rationale for what they've come up with, but they do seem to be able to sail at competitive speed in a straight line.

My guess is that they have major problems with their controllers.

Somehow, the controllers have to be set up for both macro and micro adjustments, at the drop of a hat. One single second is a long time for these boats, and human reaction time is not that fine tuned. Reaction time for a person is only about 0.25 secs to visual input.

Someone from the NZ team said they were up to their 8-9th iteration of controllers ( he may have been talking about the mainsail controller? ).

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3 hours ago, RobG said:

So the CEO is a Kiwi, clearly he wasn't going to build a successful rocket company if it stayed in NZ, that much is obvious. It's something of a vanity project to chose to launch space vehicles from a geographically shitty location that cops a 22% initial velocity hit (Cape Canaveral is 11° closer to the equator).

I guess South Africans can claim credit for Tesla's success.

Actually, no the rocket company is succesfully based in NZ...

It was founded by a Kiwi living in NZ, and since inception has designed, built, and launched its rockets from here... with Kiwis and of course recent immigrants attracted to our fair shores.

Here are were the electrons are made, about 10 mins away from where I live

EXNjRDvUYAAoSkv.thumb.jpg.da5e9d5090e9be70fe0e11e320105ac9.jpg

And here is where they launch them from, somewhat further away, but still in NZ...

rocketlab-lc1b.jpg.1302f5cad7c5b850f7a2c5e8ff5e7af6.jpg

The corporate relocation is about appeasing the type of americancentric parochialism that you so well illustrate...

https://www.satellitetoday.com/business/2014/10/23/electron-to-launch-at-least-once-per-week-says-rocket-lab-ceo/

Other considerations included launch sites and reusability. Rocket Lab was originally a New Zealand company, but switched to the United States after raising money from sources such as Silicon Valley venture firm, Khosla Ventures. Electron is now considered a U.S. launch system, and Rocket Lab New Zealand is owned by Rocket Lab USA. Beck said the launch site and range are what tethers Rocket Lab to New Zealand because, after speaking with U.S. launch ranges, none could accommodate the company’s projected launch cadence.

Beck said that, while New Zealand would not be an ideal launch site for traditional satellites due to its distance from the equator, its access to high inclination and sun synchronous orbits is a major benefit for SmallSats, which are predominantly LEO-based. Plus, New Zealand has a smaller amount of air and sea traffic that could raise safety concerns and potentially cancel or delay launches.

Believe it or not, sometimes the USA isn't actually best by default... would have thought that lesson would have sunk in about half a century ago...

I'm actually an immigrant to NZ from South Africa, despite where Elon was born, I don't think anyone would consider Tesla a South African company - if that's the best argument you've got, this discussion is already over in the mind of every other reader :-)

 

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3 hours ago, RobG said:

FFS, this whole discussion is absurd. I initially responded to a comment "But we don't launch from UK because of the way the earth rotates", pointing out the practical issues. Next come a bunch of dick waving Kiwis extolling the virtues of launching from remote islands in relatively high latitudes.

I'm off sailing.

Perhaps next time you'll think twice before sticking your nose in to a scrap between little NZ and big brother Britain, it will save you a bloody nose and some confusion :D

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35 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Actually, no the rocket company is succesfully based in NZ...

It was founded by a Kiwi living in NZ, and since inception has designed, built, and launched its rockets from here... with Kiwis and of course recent immigrants attracted to our fair shores.

Here are were the electrons are made, about 10 mins away from where I live

EXNjRDvUYAAoSkv.thumb.jpg.da5e9d5090e9be70fe0e11e320105ac9.jpg

And here is where they launch them from, somewhat further away, but still in NZ...

rocketlab-lc1b.jpg.1302f5cad7c5b850f7a2c5e8ff5e7af6.jpg

The corporate relocation is about appeasing the type of americancentric parochialism that you so well illustrate...

https://www.satellitetoday.com/business/2014/10/23/electron-to-launch-at-least-once-per-week-says-rocket-lab-ceo/

Other considerations included launch sites and reusability. Rocket Lab was originally a New Zealand company, but switched to the United States after raising money from sources such as Silicon Valley venture firm, Khosla Ventures. Electron is now considered a U.S. launch system, and Rocket Lab New Zealand is owned by Rocket Lab USA. Beck said the launch site and range are what tethers Rocket Lab to New Zealand because, after speaking with U.S. launch ranges, none could accommodate the company’s projected launch cadence.

Beck said that, while New Zealand would not be an ideal launch site for traditional satellites due to its distance from the equator, its access to high inclination and sun synchronous orbits is a major benefit for SmallSats, which are predominantly LEO-based. Plus, New Zealand has a smaller amount of air and sea traffic that could raise safety concerns and potentially cancel or delay launches.

Believe it or not, sometimes the USA isn't actually best by default... would have thought that lesson would have sunk in about half a century ago...

I'm actually an immigrant to NZ from South Africa, despite where Elon was born, I don't think anyone would consider Tesla a South African company - if that's the best argument you've got, this discussion is already over in the mind of every other reader :-)

 

Just another American Company.

https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/20-11-2018/what-lies-inside-rocket-labs-secret-us-military-contracts/

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4 hours ago, Salty Seacock said:

Did BMC Leyland design and build this boat or what? Sad really, England was once a great sailing nation. Now, they're a joke. 

No, a Kiwi designed it, lol.  And in many ways that’s even sadder, regardless of whether it gets competitive or not.  

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54 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

No, a Kiwi designed it, lol.  And in many ways that’s even sadder, regardless of whether it gets competitive or not.  

Nick Holroyd's AC design career could be done if he doesn't come up with something very good...

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22 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

Nick Holroyd's AC design career could be done if he doesn't come up with something very good...

Hasn’t done Juan K any harm.. granted he isnt working in the AC but got people signing up for a lap of the planet in his boats. 
 

memories are short and money talks. 
 

still it’s nice that irrespective of Rita making the final there will be a Brit designer contesting the final ;-) 

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On 12/25/2020 at 10:31 AM, snaerk said:

Thresher, Scorpion ...

Is that your final answer or would you like to phone a friend?  If you are going for smart replies you might as well get them right.

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16 hours ago, snaerk said:

Odd kwestchin to be asking

 

 

 

at 2am on Xmas day


 

 

 

(at leest, that iz what tym it woz,

 

 

 

in Grate Britten)

Is that your final answer or would you like to phone a friend?  If you are going for smart replies you might as well get them right. 

You and Barfly should look at the time date on the question. It was Christmas Eve and my wife had let me stay up late. The time is even on your post!

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On 12/26/2020 at 1:07 PM, Dave S said:

Many thanks for the kind thought, but from what I've observed it seems that most people here have responded to the Xmas COVID restrictions either by ignoring them or by finding a way to persuade themselves that they're exempt.

Rubbish. According to the press that the kiwis read we are all suffering in misery.

DSCF6517.JPG

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20 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

And yet with all that drag they managed a fastest top speed on one of the days? How does that work smarty pants? 
 

if it was all so hugely draggy they couldn’t  have 

Top speed is about power to drag ratio. Speed through the maneuvers is about low drag because there's no power.

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On 12/26/2020 at 8:01 AM, ed__miller said:

There is some fancy Doppler? speed log inside that needs to be encased in water to work properly. https://www.ineosteamuk.com/en/articles/331_Measuring-speed-through-water-with-Nortek.html

That seems like some fun tech, but I don't think a measurement device that slows you down is a great idea, if that is what it is.

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On 12/26/2020 at 12:24 AM, jaysper said:

All the AC75s seem to drain some water from their foils.

INEOS just more than the rest.

Yeah. All the AC75s slow down in the maneuvers. INEOS just more than the rest.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

LOL! And Sallies collection bin strategically placed alongside.

Get drunk, strip off and donate. You know it is the only way.

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4 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

This should do for RR1

images.jpeg.jpg

Nice recyclable container too. Couple of quick cuts with the chainsaw and you have a pair of hottubs with some fuel left over for the wood powered boiler.

(Would love to see Deschutes sponsor Race Week PNW)

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40 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

When is Ben gonna get back out on the water? He has 2 weeks left, and if they’ve made the mods to the boat, surely they need to get training time in before the regatta starts? 

This is going to look like Artemis. Heroic effort to turn a turd into less of a turd right before the RR's.

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46 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

When is Ben gonna get back out on the water? He has 2 weeks left, and if they’ve made the mods to the boat, surely they need to get training time in before the regatta starts? 

I would imagine right now they have to prioritize mods over practice since they know no matter how well they sail that boat in it's current configuration, they will lose.

The reality is that they don't face elimination till the semi final, so can use all the time up to that point to learn to sail it.

It is hard to imagine them being able to close such a massive gap.

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19 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I would imagine right now they have to prioritize mods over practice since they know no matter how well they sail that boat in it's current configuration, they will lose.

The reality is that they don't face elimination till the semi final, so can use all the time up to that point to learn to sail it.

It is hard to imagine them being able to close such a massive gap.

Stranger things have happened, it is the AC afterall.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

When is Ben gonna get back out on the water? He has 2 weeks left, and if they’ve made the mods to the boat, surely they need to get training time in before the regatta starts? 

Relax. Time for a relaxing holiday. Doesn't take long to empty all the sand out

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18 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Indeed. San Francisco was a hard lesson for us Kiwis on this.

It's possible but pretty unlikely.

Haven't you stopped this from happening by having to declare everything 2 days before the first race.. Surely this means that you can't carry on developing the boat midway through the series?

A crap rule for the spectators as if one boat is off the pace, there is no chance of catching up. Does anyone know what the key upgrades were apart from ben aislie?

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

When is Ben gonna get back out on the water? He has 2 weeks left, and if they’ve made the mods to the boat, surely they need to get training time in before the regatta starts? 

Maybe the front fell off?

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