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1 hour ago, rh3000 said:

You just edited your original post to remove the part saying "we'll have to wait until the first race to know for sure".

Tis a shame, was keen to see if none if your predicted pitchpoles occurred in first race you'd finally admit being wrong. Guess not.

As you bring the matter, I said they would capsize in different ways, you said they would self right, who was right ? :)

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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

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3 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

As you bring the matter, I said they would capsize in different ways, you said they would self right, who was right ? :)

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TC you were right - you are always right - in fact if you were a boat you'd be an AC75, because just like the boat, you can right yourself!

I hope that makes you feel better - it appears you need this belief more than anyone else here - so sure thing kid... have at it... 

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3 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

TC you were right - you are always right - in fact if you were a boat you'd be an AC75, because just like the boat, you can right yourself!

TC is more self righteous than self righting.

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WOnder what teams "crash stop" protocols are like.  Both foils down, fuses off on the sheets?  Interesting how fast Ineos rounded up; is that on purpose to keep the stopped boat from capsizing or just a thing that happened?

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24 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

My guess is rudder stalled, more angle was applied to bear away and when flow suddenly reattached very sharp bear away resulted with rig control being out of sync.

sharp work to blow the jib saved it I think 

Yep. They hit a gust then that slight low he anticipated, then the big one which he got but was too big. I mean its a 75-foot boat, not a skiff. Frensham Pond standard issue and any gusty breeze in flat water stuff.

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6 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Ineos got very messy in that splash down and round up.

Unbelievable. So unstable. ;-)

Pic:INEOS via  NZ Herald

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25 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

You think that was intentional?

I reckon they broke something, which is why the guy went into the foredeck immediately. 

They continued sailing so any damage would have been manageable and within tolerances. 

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4 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Unbelievable. So unstable. ;-)

Pic:INEOS via  NZ Herald

1580428226880.jpg

Straight down the mine, clearly AM are going to win the cup, they only ever fly stable and fast. 

In fact, AM are so great, they dont even need to practice anymore. 

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Wow was hoping the extremely violent wipeouts would be moderated by the increased size :blink:

Rudder let go & it whipped round pivoting around the lee foil.

 

Guess they lost Smackdaddy as a fan ;)

 

Kinda interesting that the non-bulb 'unstable' TNZ hasn't appeared to have that kind of violent wipeout.

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Meanwhile: INEOS Grenadier signed a 420M€ deal with Italian heavy equipment mfr. Carraro for the supply of front&rear axles. A similar contract went to BMW for 6-cylinder diesel engines. Frame chassis to be made in Portugal, reportedly  But wasn’t Ratcliffe a Brexiteer?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Yeah, they do ease it as they're going down the mine, but it seems unrestrained afterwards.

It had been eased/let out to a margin beyond normal plus they were nearly head to wind with a sail that is very flat hence the flapping as the crew went forward 

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2 hours ago, Xlot said:

Meanwhile: INEOS Grenadier signed a 420M€ deal with Italian heavy equipment mfr. Carraro for the supply of front&rear axles. A similar contract went to BMW for 6-cylinder diesel engines. Frame chassis to be made in Portugal, reportedly  But wasn’t Ratcliffe a Brexiteer?

 

Yes. He is a brexiteer. I presume the UK government will hit him heavily with import duties for all the European parts he assembles. 

 

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Just been looking at the photos of Luna Rossa fracking Ineos..! Looks like the Italians have some speed. Meanwhile somebody said Quote Fracking "It's a bit like ripping up your favorite sofa for the chance of finding some loose change that might have dropped out of someone's pocket". 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

This time the brits seem to have well trimmed their main. The usual posters will tell that they fly so high, in fact LR and their kiwi conterpart would probably have belly in the water. :)

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^^^^^^^^

IMO, it's a bit misleading to say NZ and LR are foiling lower than the scows. Since they have their skeg/canoe thingies underneath which could give the impression that they're foiling lower than they actually are. They probably do foil lower than they British and American counterparts but not as much as people think.

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1 hour ago, Lickindip said:

whoever is creating these sketches needs to look at the class rule,

the dimensions shown are required to be the SAME!!!

Yes, pointed out when they were first published some time ago. Also, your Fig. 13.1 isn't from the latest version of the rule. Notably, the 3375 mm circle has been removed (and the diagram is now in pretty colours). :-)

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No one has mentioned the mainsail trim throughout their bear away/stallout/smackdown.....

The head of the main is inverted from the initial bearaway and then throughout and seems to be another contributary factor as to how they saved it whilst there was no real control over events.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Boink said:

No one has mentioned the mainsail trim throughout their bear away/stallout/smackdown.....

The head of the main is inverted from the initial bearaway and then throughout and seems to be another contributary factor as to how they saved it whilst there was no real control over events.

 

 

Isn't that just a lesson learnt from the wing sail days to increase total righting moment? I don't believe we saw the bell shape applied in the AC pre AC34. Could be wrong. 

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2 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

Isn't that just a lesson learnt from the wing sail days to increase total righting moment? I don't believe we saw the bell shape applied in the AC pre AC34. Could be wrong. 

Not sure if the inversion was deliberate, or just a lack of control in this instance..... Haven't seen enough footage to say whether this is repeatable behaviour. I mention it because of the references to their mainsail trim of late - perticularly the sequence of shots with LR where the head of the main looks "slack" for want of a better term.

Yes I recall the whole wing flap in two direction debate.

 

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6 hours ago, Boink said:

No one has mentioned the mainsail trim throughout their bear away/stallout/smackdown.....

The head of the main is inverted from the initial bearaway and then throughout and seems to be another contributary factor as to how they saved it whilst there was no real control over events.

 

 

The Italian Guys covered that...

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11 hours ago, Lickindip said:

could be angle of camera but this is fat like a fat thing

I think its not really end-on.

End-on to the flap which is at quite large deflection.

A lot of the apparent thickness is just the bottom of the foil at angle.

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23 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

You can do so much better than this.. no effort, no attempt at humorous ridicule or wit, just blunt and unsophisticated 2/10 

2/10. That’s one more than the designers of that deck sweeper got.

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

‘Ya think so? It looks like a pile of shit to me.

She is starting to look like she’s been built in a soviet tractor factory :blink:

043B6133-501A-406F-A5EA-49F27ABF460F.jpeg

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

You can do so much better than this.. no effort, no attempt at humorous ridicule or wit, just blunt and unsophisticated 2/10 

So defend the positive aspects you see then. 

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9 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

CU's. Interesting goings-on in sail control.

On another subject the photographer of LR with B stated he saw no discernible difference in their deltas

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So boss, this is where your millions are going.......oh yes, thanks for my wages/retirement fund as well. 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

So defend the positive aspects you see then. 

I was commenting, sarcastically, on the lazy single swear word assessment of the DS 

you being a deliberately argumentative. decide I have to get into defending something I wasn’t even discussing

 but, it’s clear for better visibility,
it’s been added on to the existing main rather than building an entirely new one, so sensible from cost and testing perspective.

it looks to be a pretty decent seal to the deck and the U/V shaped vertical pieces  seem to keep tension on it to hold its shape without collapsing independent of whatever shaping is being put into the main

that ok? 

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I would guess he likes being on his boat and might even go another cycle because it's fun to have a boat you can go on. Those F50s you have to do the tramp dash, ruling out many rich list folk who want to ride along from time tomtime.

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2 hours ago, mad said:

So boss, this is where your millions are going.......oh yes, thanks for my wages/retirement fund as well. 

We can use the Same caption during the Portsmouth event when Mr Emerati is sat on his Dolphin? 

for balance you understand? 

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24 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

I would guess he likes being on his boat and might even go another cycle because it's fun to have a boat you can go on. Those F50s you have to do the tramp dash, ruling out many rich list folk who want to ride along from time tomtime.

Indeed, this was Bertelli’s insistence: a “passenger” (or equivalent weight) is mandated by the Rule

 

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"Now those Italians know how you build a winning AC75." 

"Shame we ended up with a fucking coal barge then. Tell me again how much you appreciate my money."

B9A72205-D414-459B-9383-062769948DEF_1_201_a.jpeg.ac450faff8c0d023da2126e6266e8aef.jpeg

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2 hours ago, trt131 said:

Ex-yachtie, you are just reinforcing the true ETNZ fanboi stereotype.  Keep drinking the Koolade.

You’re right. Another solution, for balance. 
 

Besides, am I any more of a fanboi than someone who says that disaster of a foot is “neat”?

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3 hours ago, barfy said:

Nice photos @chesirecat

Looks like independeNt leech control, but where are they tensioning from, in between the skins and forward?

 

Screenshot_20200206-160631_Chrome.jpg

One can never be sure but the flow indicators show control around that lower clew is important - or perhaps should say more important than usual. They were able to open up that leach quick during the splashdown and spin the boat round fast (also its hull shape helped big time) - almost skiff speed and amazing for a 75 foot boat so the control system must be very efficient and there must be well over 20 tonnes on that mainsheet

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47 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

One can never be sure but the flow indicators show control around that lower clew is important - or perhaps should say more important than usual. They were able to open up that leach quick during the splashdown and spin the boat round fast (also its hull shape helped big time) - almost skiff speed and amazing for a 75 foot boat so the control system must be very efficient and there must be well over 20 tonnes on that mainsheet

Seem to be more a case of out of control launch and luck that she rounded up. Possibly due to the hull shape and volume. It didn’t look like there was much control going on. They were along for the ride! IMHO :blink:

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5 hours ago, barfy said:

Nice photos @chesirecat

Looks like independeNt leech control, but where are they tensioning from, in between the skins and forward?

 

 

Not sure how independent that leech control is - both orange strops lead back to single strop onto the traveller. It looks like the split allows independent twist/orientation fore-aft between the skins but leech control is combined....

ineos leech.jpg

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27 minutes ago, NZK said:

Not sure how independent that leech control is - both orange strops lead back to single strop onto the traveller. It looks like the split allows independent twist/orientation fore-aft between the skins but leech control is combined....

 

+1

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54 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Given that the two skins are linked at the leech

What is there suggestion of wanting  independent leech control of each skin surely they have to function in unison 

Don’t know if it’s independent leech control or independent tack shift

 

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On 2/4/2020 at 11:22 AM, chesirecat said:

Neat solution on the foot

Ineos.jpg

What is the point of over engineering it?  All it does is prevent air from moving under the sail.  This does that and provides visibility without adding excessive weight.  I assume AM will use a similar setup.  

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12 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

All it does is prevent air from moving under the sail.

It contributes to the overall shape of the main. ENTZ/LR's are the way to do it, not that manky effort from Ineos. That said, it's fixable. Seems they've gone for a very minimal boom compared to ETNZ. Their control system doesn't look as sophisticated either.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

It contributes to the overall shape of the main. ENTZ/LR's are the way to do it, not that manky effort from Ineos. That said, it's fixable. Seems they've gone for a very minimal boom compared to ETNZ. Their control system doesn't look as sophisticated either.

What boom.

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4 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

What is the point of over engineering it?  All it does is prevent air from moving under the sail.  This does that and provides visibility without adding excessive weight.  I assume AM will use a similar setup.  

Ah ... no sorry the foot is potentially a very effective part of the sail profile. We see from both Luna Rossa and ETNZ that a clean and controlled main sail foot gives you access to a lot of low end power, as it becomes the portion on the main sail with the most draft. Giving you access to better lower end acceleration.Not designing for that is a major cluster f@ck

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13 hours ago, NZK said:

Not sure how independent that leech control is - both orange strops lead back to single strop onto the traveller. It looks like the split allows independent twist/orientation fore-aft between the skins but leech control is combined....

ineos leech.jpg

Are there not blocks at the top of the orange strops? I had imagined one side of the block being able to be tensioned from above...otherwise how do you tension anything on that arrangement, the traveller car looks simple enough and hard to lead power to as it has to be mobile.

The pod cast shared a while ago with the Aus fellow from advance wing??? (Sorry on mobile can't find) , the double skin sail pioneer, mentioned challenges with skin tension and rotating D spar. Etnz seems to have thought it important enough to have started trialling a hydraulic independent leach control mechanism in full view from day one.

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7 hours ago, Xlot said:

Don’t know if it’s independent leech control or independent tack shift

 

Yes, that's a good point.easier place to keep the gear and get power to. Still, combining a main sheet control with leach control seems like good thinking. 

Still lots of time for teams to switch up thinking and copy another's ideas in this area, unlike hull shape where time for b2 dev is becoming very short.

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54 minutes ago, Xlot said:

In fact, where’s the mainsheet ram? 

that's my entire point. That's why i was thinking that the two blocks at the top just under the clew are actively tensioning the clews somehow.

837300562_ineosleech.jpg

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10 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Given that the two skins are linked at the leech

What is there suggestion of wanting  independent leech control of each skin surely they have to function in unison 

I don't think there is, I think much of the shaping is done from the luff through the battens

The top of the orange strop splits into three smaller strops to distribute the load across a pretty slender piece of carbon boom

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12 minutes ago, RMac said:

I don't think there is, I think much of the shaping is done from the luff through the battens

The top of the orange strop splits into three smaller strops to distribute the load across a pretty slender piece of carbon boom

Upon zooming further I can see that slender bit as well, so I agree the top assembly is load distribution.

Still, how does the "mainsheet" assembly get tension?

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7 hours ago, barfy said:

that's my entire point. That's why i was thinking that the two blocks at the top just under the clew are actively tensioning the clews somehow.

837300562_ineosleech.jpg

Yip. This is the answer. Sheets lead forward along the foot (where the boom is hidden).

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Yip. This is the answer. Sheets lead forward along the foot (where the boom is hidden).

To me that looks like an Antal style ring at the base of the leech strops that goes onto a single mainsheet line. Articulation between leeches but not individual mainsheet control....

ineos leech3.jpg

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