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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

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5 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Very interesting, but I think that’s were they keep their blow up sex doll

Who gets first dibs? Or do they have a roster?

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6 minutes ago, HawkeyeNZ said:

Who gets first dibs? Or do they have a roster?

Don’t be absurd......gee everyone’s knows the skipper goes first, the Grinders would just wreck it .

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If ever there was a lesson on doing what you can with what you got, I believe we all have been privileged to see such a reinforcement of said lesson..... be interesting to see their Cunningham management system (doubtful)......

Future ahead, I'm not sure Prada is at the required level, also depends what NYC comes out of the shed with & IF they achieve sailing on the 27th..... too many variables & the crystal ball is in pieces against the wall of my garage.....

Team GBR is probably the closest a Brit team has ever come to being a valid challenger and also we have not seen all the goodies in Grants tool box (& yes he has some real "tool's" in that program....

Hold onto your hats boy's & girls, shit just got real......

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amazing race. Looking forward to seeing the details of the final cross but by the time it got close they were both soaking so closing speed is reduced?...lots of bearing away also so ineos need to be given time to respond?....and these are the best sailors in the world etc. Jimmy just trying to do the ground work for future decisions.....or sulking. Again, amazing given that Rita was woumded.

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2 hours ago, MrBump said:

Anyone know what the issue was this time?

Ben refused to say, but did mention that it wasn't performance related. Bit of niggle from the Italians no doubt.

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Prada protested AM fir cutting the sticker for the Prada cup slightly smaller so it fitted on the bat wing main.. on the basis of it was a weight saving.

the solution was to stick the cut off bit back on.

So yeah tiny bit petty..

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RR4 Day 1

First… what a terrific match race from both the Brits and Italias!! Congrats to both contenders.

Despite the broken cunnigham Ben, Gilo and team INEOS once more max’d the shifts to a well-earned victory. That final pass? Seat of the pants stuff… of this nine lead changes race-off, though gate 1 was defo the moment for me.

Could LRP Pirelli have been more aggressive on the tack plays?!? Maybe… however one mistake on a high-stakes manoeuvre and yer done. Winner takes all.

Quote of the race: Sir Ben; “Here we go guys…. Keep it calm!”

Let’s hope the races betwixt AM and LRP Pirelli are equally dramatic, when the Yanks finally get PATRIOT back into the game.

Tally Ho!

rys_01.png.287bd39a91de9b21a545d683928d93b4.png

 

PS: Any Brits watching the race live? Being of a certain age (dullers, dear chap) I do have to factor in my beauty sleeps…

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26 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Prada protested AM fir cutting the sticker for the Prada cup slightly smaller so it fitted on the bat wing main.. on the basis of it was a weight saving.

the solution was to stick the cut off bit back on.

So yeah tiny bit petty..

The Brits have got history sending criminals in boats down to this part of the Southern Hemisphere...

No doubt it was a major transgression warranting a trip to Sydney Gaol, maybe?

 

 

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38 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I watched it on catch-up this morning at 0830. I did consider getting up but with 6(?) Postponements my way was better :)

As good as sitting on north head and watching it live with a few beers?  My way was better  ;)

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8 minutes ago, I ride bikes said:

As good as sitting on north head and watching it live with a few beers?  My way was better  ;)

I'll give you that one (can't spoil my happiness with the race though)

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1 hour ago, Marinatrix447 said:

RR4 Day 1

First… what a terrific match race from both the Brits and Italias!! Congrats to both contenders.

Despite the broken cunnigham Ben, Gilo and team INEOS once more max’d the shifts to a well-earned victory. That final pass? Seat of the pants stuff… of this nine lead changes race-off, though gate 1 was defo the moment for me.

Could LRP Pirelli have been more aggressive on the tack plays?!? Maybe… however one mistake on a high-stakes manoeuvre and yer done. Winner takes all.

Quote of the race: Sir Ben; “Here we go guys…. Keep it calm!”

Let’s hope the races betwixt AM and LRP Pirelli are equally dramatic, when the Yanks finally get PATRIOT back into the game.

Tally Ho!

rys_01.png.287bd39a91de9b21a545d683928d93b4.png

 

PS: Any Brits watching the race live? Being of a certain age (dullers, dear chap) I do have to factor in my beauty sleeps…

I sleep ugly.

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What a race!

However... I can't help but feel the other teams are losing more than INEOS are winning sometimes. Luna Rossa will be furious. at their race calls through this series and AM clearly have a fast boat. Either of those teams are going to be formidable IF they can get their own houses in order. 

But well done to the lads on INEOS. You need the boat speed to put other teams under pressure, which they just about have and then they have been clinical in leveraging other teams mistakes. 

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so with the new up range faster foils and INEOS with a hobbled boat that cant sail the correct angles,  Prada still cant get it across the line you have to wonder..

the last two races against Prada they have killed them on down wind speed by over 4 kts. 

I wonder is Max is impressed yet?

next weekend up range conditions please,  Prada go home then back to some lightish air stuff for the Final against AM, to face an improved INEOS. the way its been going you wouldn't bet against it 

superb from them today

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13 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

TC should be along to tell you the cats were faster..

Have the cats done over the 50?

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13 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Well there are advantages to high aspect ration certainly. But the time when drag is more of an issue is when going faster. And UK have been consistently faster downwind when they are going faster. So they must be doing something right.

Whether that means they need less flap movement or the foil is thinner or something else I don't know. Those are the only 2 I can think of. And either or both could be true. Or bollocks of course

I forgot of course a lower AOA. I think there may be a bit of that, but I suspect there is a lot of needing less flap movement. Which is more than compensating for more surface area drag, and also means they need less hydraulics so they can get away with fewer grinders.

Sometimes models drive you further down 2 parallel design paths, and I wonder if that is what is happening here. UK with a more stable design and less drag from flaps, and the others going for higher and higher aspect foils with less surface drag but more flap movement and thus drag from that. 

No hard evidence, just a guess based on what little we know. 

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7 minutes ago, dullers said:

Have the cats done over the 50?

That's the wrong measure, you want to be comparing VMG (though I don't have an informed opinion on which boats had/have the better VMG)

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Incidentally one other advantage of the GB afterguard organisation is that when coming out of turns, at the most critical time for the main control, the mainsail trimmer is to windward and in control. That isn't true of AM or LR. Don't know about Nz

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48 minutes ago, Dave S said:

That's the wrong measure, you want to be comparing VMG (though I don't have an informed opinion on which boats had/have the better VMG)

I am assuming  that the mono hulls have better vmg than the cats up wind and visa versa. For us lay sailors we like the boat speed numbers.

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Is there a protest against INEOS at the moment? I could not understand it if there was or was not when watching the post match interview?

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Just now, dullers said:

Is there a protest against INEOS at the moment? I could not understand it if there was or was not when watching the post match interview?

Not a new one but they discussed the first strike warning from the outhaul issue last week. 

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1 minute ago, KingMonkey said:

Not a new one but they discussed the first strike warning from the outhaul issue last week. 

Thanks for that. It was not clear in my tiny walnut.

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4 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

What a race!

However... I can't help but feel the other teams are losing more than INEOS are winning sometimes. Luna Rossa will be furious. at their race calls through this series and AM clearly have a fast boat. Either of those teams are going to be formidable IF they can get their own houses in order. 

But well done to the lads on INEOS. You need the boat speed to put other teams under pressure, which they just about have and then they have been clinical in leveraging other teams mistakes. 

at this level you cant chalk up 5 wins purely down to others mistakes. either the other teams are a lot more shit and prone to cracking under pressure then the names suggest or Ben needs to be buying lottery tickets as he is just 'lucky'

they have regularly topped the speed, the up and down wind averages and in some cases still won having sailed longer distance, how can you do that if you don't have speed in the boat?

on the face of it Luna Rossa have won 1 race on pure pace, against AM who sucked in light air against what is supposed to be the light air bench mark.

the only other win, they were being fucked by AM till they fell over.

otherwise INEOS have had their number in every condition they raced in, how does that point to them having a faster boat? not intended to be picking an argument but you simply cant get this lucky this often at this level.

 

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4 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

TC should be along to tell you the cats were faster..

Cat was slightly faster for a second or two in a squall where other cats got busted up. Haven't seen AC75 top sustained speeds yet.

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46 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

at this level you cant chalk up 5 wins purely down to others mistakes. either the other teams are a lot more shit and prone to cracking under pressure then the names suggest or Ben needs to be buying lottery tickets as he is just 'lucky'

they have regularly topped the speed, the up and down wind averages and in some cases still won having sailed longer distance, how can you do that if you don't have speed in the boat?

on the face of it Luna Rossa have won 1 race on pure pace, against AM who sucked in light air against what is supposed to be the light air bench mark.

the only other win, they were being fucked by AM till they fell over.

otherwise INEOS have had their number in every condition they raced in, how does that point to them having a faster boat? not intended to be picking an argument but you simply cant get this lucky this often at this level.

 

true, and sailing is very much about minimising mistakes. They've been the best at that, so sailed the best. 

I think, in the LR losses to INEOS, you can point to moments in the race where LR made tactical errors, or handling errors which have a greater impact on the end of race delta than pure speed. These all get summed up in to the end of race averages, so it's hard to then pull them out afterwards. 

Race 1: LR missed the hook, lost start, then struggle to bear away twice. Delta was in the teens. Without these errors luna rossa 'may' have won

Race 2 (canned): LR were better upwind in the waves, slight edge to INEOS downwind. But overall LR had more legs I felt. Seemed to get less unsettled and have a wider groove. But then they hit the hole and INEOS sailed right by... 

Race 2: LR got out of phase upwind and lost a lot, then went wrong windward to get out of phase for downwind. INEOS had better speed DW, LR better height UW. Very tight, but I would say INEOS had a slight speed advantage in this race... but marginal. 

Race 3: LR fudged two tacks. Missed layline. Swung out round leeward mark. And were only half a boat length off winning the race with that final cross. 

They also never matched up against LR in the light, which is where most would suspect LR to have their edge. 

So, I couldn't conclusively say INEOS have a faster boat (although if their Cunningham had worked today, maybe it would have been?). What we can say for sure, if the way INEOS is sailed, the crew roles, the division of labour... excellent. Harder to give a metric for this, but I don't think anyone can deny. 

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Also worth noting that GB did make some mistakes in all the races. Not as many, but they aren't perfect. 

As well as the bear away over 50kts, GB did over 48kts downwind. I know they were sailing higher than usual because of the Cunningham, but that is still fast.

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35 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

true, and sailing is very much about minimising mistakes. They've been the best at that, so sailed the best. 

I think, in the LR losses to INEOS, you can point to moments in the race where LR made tactical errors, or handling errors which have a greater impact on the end of race delta than pure speed. These all get summed up in to the end of race averages, so it's hard to then pull them out afterwards. 

Race 1: LR missed the hook, lost start, then struggle to bear away twice. Delta was in the teens. Without these errors luna rossa 'may' have won

Race 2 (canned): LR were better upwind in the waves, slight edge to INEOS downwind. But overall LR had more legs I felt. Seemed to get less unsettled and have a wider groove. But then they hit the hole and INEOS sailed right by... 

Race 2: LR got out of phase upwind and lost a lot, then went wrong windward to get out of phase for downwind. INEOS had better speed DW, LR better height UW. Very tight, but I would say INEOS had a slight speed advantage in this race... but marginal. 

Race 3: LR fudged two tacks. Missed layline. Swung out round leeward mark. And were only half a boat length off winning the race with that final cross. 

They also never matched up against LR in the light, which is where most would suspect LR to have their edge. 

So, I couldn't conclusively say INEOS have a faster boat (although if their Cunningham had worked today, maybe it would have been?). What we can say for sure, if the way INEOS is sailed, the crew roles, the division of labour... excellent. Harder to give a metric for this, but I don't think anyone can deny. 

Seems to me that it's difficult to really define one boat as faster than another.

GB have a very talented and well organised crew. If they were the crew on either LR or AM, I suspect they would have done quite well with those boats too. IMO.

 

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4 hours ago, dullers said:

I am assuming  that the mono hulls have better vmg than the cats up wind and visa versa. For us lay sailors we like the boat speed numbers.

Are we talking about the Ac35 Cats? Not entirely apples to apples, as this is just one race vs an entire series, however these were the stats for the final in Bermuda:

vmg.thumb.PNG.cb1a81f19eba21fa602e16da10443ab9.PNG

And this is yesterday's race:

americascupmonohull.jpg.04c0206f4e0c3b4e29c11dbe77964bef.jpg

In the entire Bermuda final, New Zealand never got to 40 knots. Here, the boats are going over 50

Again, it's just one race and Bermuda is not the Hauraki, but the difference is striking

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I think the main advantage INEOS has is the ability to turn corners faster than any of the challengers. They make lots of gains around the top marks. 

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7 minutes ago, Jachtař said:

 

In the entire Bermuda final, New Zealand never got to 40 knots. Here, the boats are going over 50

Again, it's just one race and Bermuda is not the Hauraki, but the difference is striking

Worth noting that it wasn't even that windy yesterday. And I'm sure they were both quicker than the were in similar conditions from RR1

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2 minutes ago, dullers said:

Just out of interest were Prada on their new foils on day 4 (race 5)?

I think it was mentioned at the post race presser that they were on the new foils.

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1 minute ago, marlowe said:

I think it was mentioned at the post race presser that they were on the new foils.

I thought so to but i was not sure if he was referring to them in the race  or when they had trialled them.  I still think Prada has a control problem. They often touch and splash compared to others and I am trying to work out why their mark rounding's are poor, Is it human input, mechanical/software  or a mixture of all 3?

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

I think the main advantage INEOS has is the ability to turn corners faster than any of the challengers. They make lots of gains around the top marks. 

Yes they turn well and really important they get low after the windward mark, gaining distance to the leeward mark. This is difficult to do-it is much easier to sail a bit high initially then come down when everything is sorted and your speed is up. As Ineos does this it gains distance DDW and means they hit the boundary later which gives them more tactical options.

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9 minutes ago, oatsandbeans said:

Yes they turn well and really important they get low after the windward mark, gaining distance to the leeward mark. This is difficult to do-it is much easier to sail a bit high initially then come down when everything is sorted and your speed is up. As Ineos does this it gains distance DDW and means they hit the boundary later which gives them more tactical options.

So far because of that u turn they do other teams have not been able to stop a split. INEOS can pick a split if it suits them. Great tactical advantage.

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Just rewatching that first beat, again Ben sails parallel with LR and thinks.he is safe, I think subconsciously still treating the gap as he would with a slower boat, but when LR luffs and closes the gap Ineos is made to tack off and actually falls off the.foils....but accelerates quickly taking us into LRs bad too mark... which LR is calling race loosing, but actually is nothing of the.kind.......thing is, that situation only arises because ineos misjudged the above luff situation ie if they had racked off smoothly earlier they'd have been clear at the top mark. The take away for ineos\ben is to be more careful of a Jimmy/ac75 luff.....hopefully that'll be lesson learnt.

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36 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

Just rewatching that first beat, again Ben sails parallel with LR and thinks.he is safe, I think subconsciously still treating the gap as he would with a slower boat, but when LR luffs and closes the gap Ineos is made to tack off and actually falls off the.foils....but accelerates quickly taking us into LRs bad too mark... which LR is calling race loosing, but actually is nothing of the.kind.......thing is, that situation only arises because ineos misjudged the above luff situation ie if they had racked off smoothly earlier they'd have been clear at the top mark. The take away for ineos\ben is to be more careful of a Jimmy/ac75 luff.....hopefully that'll be lesson learnt.

Ben was also driving from Leeward at that point something they haven’t done much of in a race/luffing context 

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1 hour ago, Chris UK said:

The on board of the bottom mark, leg 4 to 5, was something else. Absolutely a team at its peak performance.

Best example of boat handling we have seen so far IMO and by quite some margin.

Contrast this with LR who would have almost definitely won if they had been able to tack the boat properly.

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4 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

If you remember the PR when Prada launched they said they had 100% perfect manoeuvres and that was thier big advantage.. 

I don't think, Max is quite as cocky as he was, then. ;-)

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18 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Best example of boat handling we have seen so far IMO and by quite some margin.

Contrast this with LR who would have almost definitely won if they had been able to tack the boat properly.

I dont know why but i get a kick every time INEOS does this round a mark.

Screenshot (1823).png

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5 minutes ago, dullers said:

I dont know why but i get a kick every time INEOS does this round a mark.

Screenshot (1823).png

I know why.

It was an absolute master class done by the team you support which almost without doubt led to them winning the race.

What's not to love if you are a pommy sailor?

 

Edit: bonus points for correct use of colour.

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8 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I know why.

It was an absolute master class done by the team you support which almost without doubt led to them winning the race.

What's not to love if you are a pommy sailor?

I agree, I think it is the smoothness and knowing that AM and LR cant do it or dont seem to want do it. It is a party trick and a half and you know it is a gain every time. Yes of course I am biased but it is a thing of beauty. Actually if I am trying to be neutral all their manoeuvres sort of look hypnotic and similar to ballet.

Actually in race 5 the commentator made a comment along the lines that LR were to shocked to do a manoeuvre because of the loss compared to INEOS.

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11 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I know why.

It was an absolute master class done by the team you support which almost without doubt led to them winning the race.

What's not to love if you are a pommy sailor?

 

Edit: bonus points for correct use of colour.

I have been given permission to use yellow by someone more qualified than me.

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On 22/01/2021 at 9:24 PM, Daniel Holman said:

Sounds interesting - apart from actuating a flap which presumably doesn't need a tonne of space judging by the skinier foils of some competitors, what do you suppose they are doing mechanically in there? I'd assumed when I saw the holes along the foils I thoughtmaybe some sort of passive air lubrication. No idea if that was a goer or not.

Maybe doing something cleverer (sp) regarding manipulating global foil shape? My experience of hydrofoils and undertanding of moth stuff is that they are as skinny as they can be within stiffness / strength limits so there is not much space in the ones that I know about.

I don't think they can pipe air down there. 

I think it's to do with how close you can get the hydraulics to the hinge. The kiwi setup is very 'moth' like, with not much in the foil. With a single foil system adjusting both flaps. INEOS I think are at the other end of the scale. Pushing more mechanics in to the foil itself. Possible better control, variable flaps along the span etc? Just speculating. The foils shape can't change, but, I think you could do clever stuff with flaps is you move control out along the foil (at the expense of foil thickness). 

Clearly, there is something the INEOS foil that is working very well. But, it may not be the overall shape, that might just be a byproduct of other good features. 

Remember, the foils have to weight 921 kilo as well, so you have to house that mass somewhere...

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19 hours ago, Piet56 said:

If ever there was a lesson on doing what you can with what you got, I believe we all have been privileged to see such a reinforcement of said lesson..... be interesting to see their Cunningham management system (doubtful)......

Future ahead, I'm not sure Prada is at the required level, also depends what NYC comes out of the shed with & IF they achieve sailing on the 27th..... too many variables & the crystal ball is in pieces against the wall of my garage.....

Team GBR is probably the closest a Brit team has ever come to being a valid challenger and also we have not seen all the goodies in Grants tool box (& yes he has some real "tool's" in that program....

Hold onto your hats boy's & girls, shit just got real......

The two most talented after guards in terms of raw talent and achievement are Ineos and ETNZ.

But the boats and teams are sufficiently strong that anything can happen.

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On 1/22/2021 at 12:36 PM, Mozzy Sails said:

Q: Which team do INEOS support?

A: West Ham, because they're forever blowing bubbles...

Some speculation about the issues with lift on maneuverer exits during the ACWS... thanks to the guys from the forum who's bits of images we've used

 

Just found this. Very interesting analysis. I like the bubble theory. I always thought their issue was related to some last-minute "upgrade" before the ACWS that completely screwed everything up they had before, but they couldn't change it back because they declared the foil for the ACWS already. Among all the upgrades they did after the ACWS, there was probably one that's responsible for 90% of their improvement, which fixed the main issue. The rest is just the usual development all teams had.

I also like the discussion on design foil AOA. I thought a lot about this while making the VPP. It changes a lot of things. As you explain take off is one of them, but I couldn't really model that with my simple tools. However, even at top speed, that foil to foil arm angle determines hull pitch and yaw angles, shifting weight distribution, hull aerodynamics and could also affect how well the keel can be sealed to the water.

Tried to compare pitch and cant angles from ACWS race 8 and Prada cup race 1. Unfortunately the conditions were a bit different, but these were the two closest races in TWS. This is all straight-line / steady speed data. Positive pitch angle on these graphs is pitch forward.

Upwind ACWS race 8, TWS ~12 kts, boat speed ~31 kts:

1995665851_uwpitch.png.a948a92ae13e806d6b10d0c795f8cbd3.png  1001092672_uwcant.png.fb83ffd326b268df3f473ace2e22ef07.png

Upwind Prada RR1: TWS 13.5 - 14 kts, boat speed ~33 kts:

uw_pitch.png.fc7a203b59d90b710e3048e697207e08.pnguw_cant.png.f477adbab31bc49f4dd3956e5c7477dc.png

INEOS's pitch angle is actually lower in the Prada RR than in the ACWS. On the other hand, foil is canted out more, but that could be the result of higher TWS and smaller jib with lower center of effort, which requires higher cant angle.

Also notable that both AM and ETNZ sails with much more pitch forward than INEOS.

Downwind: ACWS race 8, TWS ~12 kts, boat speed ~37 kts:

1223075563_dwpitch.png.213111e7785ea6ab9bfd213e7f56fee2.png  1385632569_dwcant.png.f7ed5c78b33039f1c47cdecc1b348a45.png

Downwind, Prada RR1: TWS 13.5 - 14 kts, boat speed ~41 kts:  

dw_pitch.png.f42a1d55ca3ef025513623c3c6d8cb88.png  dw_cant.png.00e3b92cbd26176336c450cec61ec682.png

Same trend downwind, pitch angle is lower for INEOS in the Prada RR thank in the ACWS. Foil cant is higher in the Prada, again that could be because of higher TWS, smaller jib.

Once again, both AM and ETNZ sail with much more pitch forward than INEOS.

Based on this, I don't think they increased the foil arm to foil angle, because that would produce more pitch forward when up to speed. The changes are probably due to different foil profile, flap control or flap size. What's interesting is that I expected more pitch forward downwind, but that's apparently not the case. The 1st gen boats were sailed very differently. They sailed with a lot more pitch and yaw, especially downwind. Probably the newer foils provide much better lift control with the flaps, and the pitch (foil AOA) doesn't have to change that much as speed increases. This lets them keep the keel closer to the water.

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7 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I don't think they can pipe air down there. 

I think it's to do with how close you can get the hydraulics to the hinge. The kiwi setup is very 'moth' like, with not much in the foil. With a single foil system adjusting both flaps. INEOS I think are at the other end of the scale. Pushing more mechanics in to the foil itself. Possible better control, variable flaps along the span etc? Just speculating. The foils shape can't change, but, I think you could do clever stuff with flaps is you move control out along the foil (at the expense of foil thickness). 

Clearly, there is something the INEOS foil that is working very well. But, it may not be the overall shape, that might just be a byproduct of other good features. 

Remember, the foils have to weight 921 kilo as well, so you have to house that mass somewhere...

I think you must have so!trying here. Why else would ineos arrive at such thicker foils lower aspect foils than entz. As you say, entz with a month style actuator in the arm, vs ineos with actuation in the foil. If ineos do make the cup, this is going to be one scary first beat for both teams at its hard to see a last minute switch being possible. Looking at ineos first set of foils, I would see these as being of the entz/moth camp...so ineos chose to move away.

Does anyone know what the advantage of differential actuation of the flaps would be?

Interesting that against LR and AM, Ineos has always had an edge downwind......although it hard to tell as against them ineos seems to sail on phase far more......entz won't go the wrong.way like LR and AM.

Is that also what we are seeing, that Ben and Giles and the others are better sailors than assembled in the other teams....and that that does actually.matter in an ac75.

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9 hours ago, dullers said:

And yet another one of those ballet moves. Day 4 Gate 4 race 5 RR.

Screenshot (1824).png

Yeah I watched this about six times. Mozzy has been calling it a “Thomas the Tank Engine” ie a manoeuvre on rails, which is quite good. 

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NZ stuff saying Ben is mad/sad that they have one rules infraction and if they get a second will get a dsq. He says LR is staring at them with big cameras and it makes him nervous so all teams will meet to try and change the two strike rule cause it's obviously unfair when you have one strike already.

Yea right.

 

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22 minutes ago, barfy said:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/234721/Americas-Cup-Rialto-Jan-23-Brits-make-history

Gladwell goes into a fairly strong objection to what is happening in the bottom half of this also. 
 

Ben is making a lot of it to be sure as ultimately they weren’t compliant but It’s also difficult to get their measurement cleared and then be told that it wasn’t. 
 

I guess it depends on your view of how obvious it was that the outhaul coming through the sail like that wasn’t legal. Given how easy the fix was for them, you’d have to assume they’d have done it like that in the first place of it they were half worried about illegality. 

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In plan view there was no hole. As there was no material missing and you could not see through it. 

in the rules everything is discussed in plan view , laid flat looking from above so there was no material missing and no hole. 
 

if a rule is written with an interpretation that even the measurements committee can get ‘wrong’ it’s too loose or you have to tip your hat to the team that exploited it. 
 

Given that the now legal remedy was to put a patch over it and just cover it is hilarious. 
 

the item in question is still there that the line passes through the sail you now just can’t see it. Pointing to the fact it was Prada being dicks, INEOS  are still beating them albeit with a patch over the offending article. I bet that makes EB so much happier..
 

 

 

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6 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

But the boats and teams are sufficiently strong that anything can happen.

Oh HELL yes..... beat's anything I've seen in the cup since '93...... I am a convert to these boats and dare I say it (Arrrgggghhhhh I can't I just can't do it)...... the POMS are a surprise..... God that hurts t say that - however faint heart's and all that good shit don;t win yacht races..... yet again Ben & Giles prove they have baal's bigger than Texas.... I have gone over that last cross so many times since yesterday...... thickness of a cigarette paper & 2 boats joining Patriot in open heart surgery......

 

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1 hour ago, KingMonkey said:

Yeah I watched this about six times. Mozzy has been calling it a “Thomas the Tank Engine” ie a manoeuvre on rails, which is quite good. 

I heard Mossie talking about the "Thomas". It is great to watch. I look forward to every mark rounding. I know it is going to be smooth, fast and graceful.

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1 hour ago, KingMonkey said:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/234721/Americas-Cup-Rialto-Jan-23-Brits-make-history

Gladwell goes into a fairly strong objection to what is happening in the bottom half of this also. 
 

Ben is making a lot of it to be sure as ultimately they weren’t compliant but It’s also difficult to get their measurement cleared and then be told that it wasn’t. 
 

I guess it depends on your view of how obvious it was that the outhaul coming through the sail like that wasn’t legal. Given how easy the fix was for them, you’d have to assume they’d have done it like that in the first place of it they were half worried about illegality. 

At least we finally have a baddie in the cup. Prada defender of rabbits.

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In the post race presser Ben took a bit of a swipe at LR for that. I think it would be fairer if the strikes were reset at each stage, so now the RRs are finished they go back to 1. Otherwise it is yet another advantage to NZ who are guaranteed to start the AC on 0

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2 hours ago, barfy said:

NZ stuff saying Ben is mad/sad that they have one rules infraction and if they get a second will get a dsq. He says LR is staring at them with big cameras and it makes him nervous so all teams will meet to try and change the two strike rule cause it's obviously unfair when you have one strike already.

Yea right.

If the MC measured Brittania with the illegal hole-in-the-main, they shouldn't have to answer for it. I hope ETNZ refuse to sign off on the 2-strikes-you're-dq'ed nonsense.

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Ah well at least you all get to re use the don’t make me angry ben memes that have been in the wings since 2012.. ;-)

it does sound like NZ are fed up with the constant bickering so I do hope for a full reset/throwing out the pending rule for DSQ

might it need full agreement to pass into rule? 
 

Prada exiting to AM? Now that would be worth the price of admission :D

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5 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Ah well at least you all get to re use the don’t make me angry ben memes that have been in the wings since 2012.. ;-)

it does sound like NZ are fed up with the constant bickering so I do hope for a full reset/throwing out the pending rule for DSQ

might it need full agreement to pass into rule? 
 

Prada exiting to AM? Now that would be worth the price of admission :D

Requires unanimous agreement of all 4 competitors. The litigious Italians have burned up all the goodwill they might have enjoyed with Kiwis - hope Patriot deals to them.

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31 minutes ago, dullers said:

At least we finally have a baddie in the cup. Prada defender of rabbits. 

Who called for the "Holy Hand grenade of Antioch"?????

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36 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

In the post race presser Ben took a bit of a swipe at LR for that. I think it would be fairer if the strikes were reset at each stage, so now the RRs are finished they go back to 1. Otherwise it is yet another advantage to NZ who are guaranteed to start the AC on 0

I suspect NZ would be happy to see INEOS DQued. All the good will is only skin deep in this.

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1 hour ago, Piet56 said:

Who called for the "Holy Hand grenade of Antioch"?????

I'm pretty sure that is only for use in a three strike situation, not two. The instructions were quite specific.

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2 hours ago, Nutta said:

I'm pretty sure that is only for use in a three strike situation, not two. The instructions were quite specific.

Bens press conference he was pretty adamant it was next strike was an automatic DSQ........

it was a Monty Python reference from the film "In Search of the Holy Grail".... rather apt I thought.... going further as dullers mentioned re Prada & Rabbits..... funniest shit I swear....A.M. as the Black Night on the bridge (come back... I'll bite your knee caps off!)....... Prada as the White Rabbit......AM CUP Rules committee as the "High Priests" with the hand grenade......

I know - COVID with too much time on my hands - can't get to the boat.... too much scotch in the house....... :ph34r:

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11 hours ago, erdb said:

Just found this. Very interesting analysis. I like the bubble theory. I always thought their issue was related to some last-minute "upgrade" before the ACWS that completely screwed everything up they had before, but they couldn't change it back because they declared the foil for the ACWS already. Among all the upgrades they did after the ACWS, there was probably one that's responsible for 90% of their improvement, which fixed the main issue. The rest is just the usual development all teams had.

I also like the discussion on design foil AOA. I thought a lot about this while making the VPP. It changes a lot of things. As you explain take off is one of them, but I couldn't really model that with my simple tools. However, even at top speed, that foil to foil arm angle determines hull pitch and yaw angles, shifting weight distribution, hull aerodynamics and could also affect how well the keel can be sealed to the water.

Tried to compare pitch and cant angles from ACWS race 8 and Prada cup race 1. Unfortunately the conditions were a bit different, but these were the two closest races in TWS. This is all straight-line / steady speed data. Positive pitch angle on these graphs is pitch forward.

Upwind ACWS race 8, TWS ~12 kts, boat speed ~31 kts:

1995665851_uwpitch.png.a948a92ae13e806d6b10d0c795f8cbd3.png  1001092672_uwcant.png.fb83ffd326b268df3f473ace2e22ef07.png

Upwind Prada RR1: TWS 13.5 - 14 kts, boat speed ~33 kts:

uw_pitch.png.fc7a203b59d90b710e3048e697207e08.pnguw_cant.png.f477adbab31bc49f4dd3956e5c7477dc.png

INEOS's pitch angle is actually lower in the Prada RR than in the ACWS. On the other hand, foil is canted out more, but that could be the result of higher TWS and smaller jib with lower center of effort, which requires higher cant angle.

Also notable that both AM and ETNZ sails with much more pitch forward than INEOS.

Downwind: ACWS race 8, TWS ~12 kts, boat speed ~37 kts:

1223075563_dwpitch.png.213111e7785ea6ab9bfd213e7f56fee2.png  1385632569_dwcant.png.f7ed5c78b33039f1c47cdecc1b348a45.png

Downwind, Prada RR1: TWS 13.5 - 14 kts, boat speed ~41 kts:  

dw_pitch.png.f42a1d55ca3ef025513623c3c6d8cb88.png  dw_cant.png.00e3b92cbd26176336c450cec61ec682.png

Same trend downwind, pitch angle is lower for INEOS in the Prada RR thank in the ACWS. Foil cant is higher in the Prada, again that could be because of higher TWS, smaller jib.

Once again, both AM and ETNZ sail with much more pitch forward than INEOS.

Based on this, I don't think they increased the foil arm to foil angle, because that would produce more pitch forward when up to speed. The changes are probably due to different foil profile, flap control or flap size. What's interesting is that I expected more pitch forward downwind, but that's apparently not the case. The 1st gen boats were sailed very differently. They sailed with a lot more pitch and yaw, especially downwind. Probably the newer foils provide much better lift control with the flaps, and the pitch (foil AOA) doesn't have to change that much as speed increases. This lets them keep the keel closer to the water.

Thanks, that confirms what my eyeballing of the data told me. Plus, there's something else out which I've had pointed out to me as to why a change in AoA was unlikely (video later this week). 

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19 hours ago, Chris UK said:

The on board of the bottom mark, leg 4 to 5, was something else. Absolutely a team at its peak performance.

going to watch that now.

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7 hours ago, barfy said:

NZ stuff saying Ben is mad/sad that they have one rules infraction and if they get a second will get a dsq. He says LR is staring at them with big cameras and it makes him nervous so all teams will meet to try and change the two strike rule cause it's obviously unfair when you have one strike already.

Yea right.

 

Getting a bit worried about facing INEOS barf?

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6 hours ago, dullers said:

I heard Mossie talking about the "Thomas". It is great to watch. I look forward to every mark rounding. I know it is going to be smooth, fast and graceful.

On board they called it "JK". There were no clues why.

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