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Both LR and Ineos have 8 days to lock down their design before measurement. It will be interesting to watch video of these two boats in the following week. 

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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

And so it begins. Image credit and copyright Allesandro Spiga  

Posted Images

1 minute ago, mako23 said:

Both LR and Ineos have 8 days to lock down their design before measurement. It will be interesting to watch video of these two boats in the following week. 

Yes, our spies will serve us well....release them!

 

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7 hours ago, Nutta said:

I guess it matters then how close they are in speed to LR/ETNZ. Are smaller incremental changes going to be enough?

Not saying they aren't, but interesting to see in coming weeks...

Ineos have a history if incremental gains on their cycling side, so is a methodology that has merit. It would be fascinating to have an inside view into what the teams are looking at and how they balance keeping the performance they have with making steps forward as I guess sometimes you have to go backwards before finding a route further forward. 

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7 hours ago, mako23 said:

Both LR and Ineos have 8 days to lock down their design before measurement. It will be interesting to watch video of these two boats in the following week. 

No more mods allowed after measurement? Or is it a time prohibitive to remeasure? I foresee big changes from everyone in the next few days. 

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1 hour ago, Raptorsailor said:

No more mods allowed after measurement? Or is it a time prohibitive to remeasure? I foresee big changes from everyone in the next few days. 

No more mods on hardware on boat

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1 hour ago, Raptorsailor said:

No more mods allowed after measurement? Or is it a time prohibitive to remeasure? I foresee big changes from everyone in the next few days. 

So you don't have to guess, attached is the NOR and Conditions for the Prada Cup.  See particularly article 7, which tells you what must be in the required declaration due 1600 NZ time on February 8.

If you read all of article 7, you will see everything you need to know on this topic.

The Conditions for the Match have essentially the same requirements for the declaration and timing of the declaration

COR Notice 19 to Competitors - Notice of Race and Conditions for the Prada Cup - sent.pdf

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9 hours ago, mako23 said:

Both LR and Ineos have 8 days to lock down their design before measurement. It will be interesting to watch video of these two boats in the following week. 

I am more of interested to see what ETNZ is up to. Not much news about their improvements lately

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Just now, uflux said:

I am more of interested to see what ETNZ is up to. Not much news about their improvements lately

We wont know until first race i suppose.

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On 1/29/2021 at 8:56 PM, EYESAILOR said:

When Jimmy bore away 14 degrees, its possible he started to get a piece of him but that broke rule 16

I sort of wonder how rule 16 applies to these boats. how much time do you need to give them? Do then need to be able to avoid while staying on the foils? Earlier in the series, Jimmy dipped a starboard tacker when he might have been able to cross ahead. That was upwind. If there is a close downwind cross, how much time do they need and how much distance?

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14 minutes ago, nroose said:

I sort of wonder how rule 16 applies to these boats. how much time do you need to give them? Do then need to be able to avoid while staying on the foils? Earlier in the series, Jimmy dipped a starboard tacker when he might have been able to cross ahead. That was upwind. If there is a close downwind cross, how much time do they need and how much distance?

It would seem so....

 

 

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Quite strange lighting and hard to tell, but it looks like the port foil is a slight modification from the foils used in the round robin, with some area taken from the leading edge, whereas the starboard foil seems to be a more dramatic modification with significant are taken from the trailing edge as well as the leading edge. Or... is this a trick of lighting and perspective? 

From Ineos' instagram..

143453985_606197610244466_3602184360841863623_n.jpg

145276733_811920619361409_1265683791703873966_n.jpg

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22 minutes ago, Flags said:

It would seem so....

 

 

Circle! This was the video that started this... I was talking about wondering how they decide what is enough for the give way boat to do. Jimmy did duck at least one time when it was close. Do we let Ben aggressively take risks and then invoke 16, but everyone else has to play it safe? Or is there some way the RC knows that this is fundamentally different? In fleet racing, of course you can't change course. In match racing, you can, and there is some unspoken amount of time they get. But in this situation, I am just not sure of how long that is. I guess it's kinda clear in this situation they would not have collided and there was not enough time. But where are the lines?

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1 hour ago, uflux said:
11 hours ago, mako23 said:

Both LR and Ineos have 8 days to lock down their design before measurement. It will be interesting to watch video of these two boats in the following week. 

I am more of interested to see what ETNZ is up to. Not much news about their improvements lately

Wonder if, Weta27 has enough brownie points chalked up with, Mrs Weta?

What are you doing for the next 8 days, buddy?

Time to get back out on your rock. Peanut butter sandwiches, L&P and SPF50 sunblock are at the ready. Bring your own hat. OK?

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52 minutes ago, Aqua Firma 01 said:

Or... is this a trick of lighting and perspective? 

Interesting choice of photo... I think it is probably a trick of the light and these are the foils with the bigger / silver wing tips and loads of rivets photoed  last week that otherwise seemed to be the PC RR foils,  but assuming that is the case the photo is take deliberately to show them looking as if they are higher aspect. Which begs the question of why they are having fun with onlookers like that.. it’s part of the fun I guess. 

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1 minute ago, KingMonkey said:

Interesting choice of photo... I think it is probably a trick of the light and these are the foils with the bigger / silver wing tips and loads of rivets photos last week that otherwise seemed to be the PC RR foils,  but assuming that is the case the photo is take deliberately to show them looking as if they are higher aspect. Which begs the question of why they are having fun with onlookers like that.. it’s part of the fun I guess. 

Maybe.. Maybe.. I'm sure we will found out soon enough. Just hoping that the local photographers (Justin, Mike, etc.) will be out sooner rather than later because the suspense is killing me!

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42 minutes ago, nroose said:

Circle! This was the video that started this... I was talking about wondering how they decide what is enough for the give way boat to do. Jimmy did duck at least one time when it was close. Do we let Ben aggressively take risks and then invoke 16, but everyone else has to play it safe? Or is there some way the RC knows that this is fundamentally different? In fleet racing, of course you can't change course. In match racing, you can, and there is some unspoken amount of time they get. But in this situation, I am just not sure of how long that is. I guess it's kinda clear in this situation they would not have collided and there was not enough time. But where are the lines?

The stbd boat can alter course to force port to gybe or to luff up to pass astern, but if stbd boat leaves course alteration sufficiently late that all port can do is hold course, then stbd has to give enough room for port to keep clear.  In other words, Jimmy can force Ben to gybe or luff but cannot force Ben to break 10 without giving Ben room to avoid breaking 10.

In this case, I think Ben was crossing but if Jimmy bear away prevented Ben crossing , it was done too late for Ben to respond.

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2 hours ago, uflux said:

I am more of interested to see what ETNZ is up to. Not much news about their improvements lately

I wonder during this time, are any of the teams taking time off for the sailing crew. I know LR took a day of after defeating AM.

you don’t want a tired and jaded crew when racing in the final 

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Luna Rossa publicly stated they had improved by 10% during the AM re-build period. Not sure why you state anything if this were true? So it will be interesting to see what Ineos achieve. I believe Luna Rossa went to slightly smaller flaps? In their last race Ineos won and  just crossed and that was without cunningham control. I'm tipping it will be close because both teams will be improving every day. It's amazing how they know what each of the teams have done in terms of mods and changes.

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21 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Luna Rossa publicly stated they had improved by 10% during the AM re-build period. Not sure why you state anything if this were true? So it will be interesting to see what Ineos achieve. I believe Luna Rossa went to slightly smaller flaps? In their last race Ineos won and  just crossed and that was without cunningham control. I'm tipping it will be close because both teams will be improving every day. It's amazing how they know what each of the teams have done in terms of mods and changes.

I frankly doubt they could improve by 10%...

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1 minute ago, strider470 said:

I frankly doubt they could improve by 10%...

Lol probably Jimmies idea of a mind game.

When you try to quantify what 10% really means, its difficult to imagine that its any sort of reality. I don't think they demonstrated they were 10% faster in a straight line for any given wind or 10% more efficient in tacks / gybes.

I wonder how many INEOS designers needed new keyboards when they head that statement :)

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10 minutes ago, Flags said:

Lol probably Jimmies idea of a mind game.

When you try to quantify what 10% really means, its difficult to imagine that its any sort of reality. I don't think they demonstrated they were 10% faster in a straight line for any given wind or 10% more efficient in tacks / gybes.

I wonder how many INEOS designers needed new keyboards when they head that statement :)

I think it was not Jimmy, just an exaggeration from Checco. If that is true, ETNZ should prepare the arrangements for becoming the next COR :-D

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13 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Improved by 10%? 

10%less fucked up tacks and mark roundings is my take on it. 

Wrong mob, JAL

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1 minute ago, JALhazmat said:

No I was referring to the Prada claims. 

As you were. My bad. Bullshit, as you suggest.

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Just now, Sailbydate said:

As you were. My bad. Bullshit, as you suggest.

No, I think they did, they only had one fall off the foil shit rounding and a fluffed tack, only talked over each other in one pre start and once in the race, that’s 10% better already ;-) 

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4 hours ago, fish7yu said:

 

Well that' no bloody good. the fast boats like AM and NZ have moved beyond smooth and level to being able to leap out of the water when they want.

Though I'm not sure when that was taken because isn't that AM in the background at 0:55?

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2 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Well that' no bloody good. the fast boats like AM and NZ have moved beyond smooth and level to being able to leap out of the water when they want.

Though I'm not sure when that was taken because isn't that AM in the background at 0:55?

 Footage taken on Thursday 28 (as per Youtube description)

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18 hours ago, pluscount said:

Former American Magic fanboy signing in to switch sides.  Go team INEOS!

If we win, I'll  petition Bidnen to restore Churchill's bust to the White House!

It is still in the White House, just moved to a different room.

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2 hours ago, strider470 said:

 Footage taken on Thursday 28 (as per Youtube description)

Surprised that the NYYC were out on the water. 

Is there any suggestions that they will be helping either challenger to tune up? 

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10 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Surprised that the NYYC were out on the water. 

Is there any suggestions that they will be helping either challenger to tune up? 

When the video was taken it was still game on for the semifinals. TH in a recent interview excluded that AM would have trained with ETNZ, as a form of respect towards the other challengers.

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14 minutes ago, Loose Cannon said:

did I’d anyone notice the elephant in the room in the go video?  Nobody switched sides during maneuvers....

Only the second one, likely because they rolled into a gybe shortly after rounding the orange bouy and then they swapped sides. 
 

they swapped on the three other manoeuvres.

it’s been seen before from them on one of the GMR vids I think prior to the Xmas cup 

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9 hours ago, Loose Cannon said:

did I’d anyone notice the elephant in the room in the go video?  Nobody switched sides during maneuvers....

They've done it before in racing when immediately or almost immediately tacking/gybing after a mark rounding or in similar quick 1-2 manoeuvres in the start box. 

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On 1/31/2021 at 10:18 PM, Aqua Firma 01 said:

Quite strange lighting and hard to tell, but it looks like the port foil is a slight modification from the foils used in the round robin, with some area taken from the leading edge, whereas the starboard foil seems to be a more dramatic modification with significant are taken from the trailing edge as well as the leading edge. Or... is this a trick of lighting and perspective? 

From Ineos' instagram..

143453985_606197610244466_3602184360841863623_n.jpg

145276733_811920619361409_1265683791703873966_n.jpg

They have new inboard winglets. 

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18 minutes ago, captainSackSparrow said:

Is this video blurred or there is a very smooth transition to flap? I thought I read somewhere they could have flexible transitions from main foil to flap

 

Screenshot_20210202-080348.png

Thinks like this make me happy.

Making commentators jobs harder “what size flaps are they running Nathan? Not a damn clue kenny...” 

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14 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

If they're happy for these to be shown, it must mean these are old news.

Especially the red painted and hinge-visible variant shown below:

image.thumb.png.e976ce8997bd93c9a60bec0a6d483b87.png

 

Is this a tip of rudder elevator or foil? In any case it gets plenty of love and attention.

image.thumb.png.2becb5e9942f8f649d38c62dd03e8f29.png

 

Cavitation damage?

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59 minutes ago, captainSackSparrow said:

Is this video blurred or there is a very smooth transition to flap? I thought I read somewhere they could have flexible transitions from main foil to flap

Ah, now thats nice.

This is much better use of the continuous flexy stuff than that weird scallop round the corner of the cranked foil.

Arm/wing joins better faired in & they changed the geometry of the inner flap/bulb join.

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23 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

If they're happy for these to be shown, it must mean these are old news.

Especially the red painted and hinge-visible variant shown below:

image.thumb.png.e976ce8997bd93c9a60bec0a6d483b87.png

 

Is this a tip of rudder elevator or foil? In any case it gets plenty of love and attention.

image.thumb.png.2becb5e9942f8f649d38c62dd03e8f29.png

 

It’s a foil tip 

 

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On 1/31/2021 at 10:23 PM, pluscount said:

Former American Magic fanboy signing in to switch sides.  Go team INEOS!

If we win, I'll  petition Bidnen to restore Churchill's bust to the White House!

line in the sand: 

 

NYYC thread - page 140

ETNZ - 130

Luna Rosa -  60 

this thread -  78

 

As a neutral, I've been happy for any of the four challengers to take it

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30 minutes ago, shebeen said:

line in the sand: 

 

NYYC thread - page 140

ETNZ - 130

Luna Rosa -  60 

this thread -  78

 

As a neutral, I've been happy for any of the four challengers to take it

Please, it's with the double S! Luna Rossa. ;-) rosa is pink, rossa is red

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1 hour ago, southseasbill said:

Cavitation damage?

Residue from wet sanding (P800) with soapy water?

Which would make it bubbles rather than chipped paint.

 

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1 hour ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

Yep, foil tip - I think I can see an outline of the flap, stopping just before the tip winglet

image.thumb.png.5c2667f22b1e7e49094eb483acf23e99.png

Maybe ware and tear through the water? 

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2 hours ago, captainSackSparrow said:

Is this video blurred or there is a very smooth transition to flap? I thought I read somewhere they could have flexible transitions from main foil to flap

 

Screenshot_20210202-080348.png

There are a few things about this image that don't look quite kosher to me.

However... it appears that they have addressed the "end-plating" of the inner foil end to the bulb, as has LR:

Capture.JPG.c843db9d492c61f10b5118d4ed4af63f.JPG

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9 hours ago, Grog said:

Residue from wet sanding (P800) with soapy water?

Which would make it bubbles rather than chipped paint.

 

OK talk to me, I have never heard of using soapy water when wet sanding? Whats the theory, happy to learn about this.....

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42 minutes ago, Flags said:
9 hours ago, Grog said:

Residue from wet sanding (P800) with soapy water?

Which would make it bubbles rather than chipped paint.

 

OK talk to me, I have never heard of using soapy water when wet sanding? Whats the theory, happy to learn about this.....

Keeps the sandpaper from clogging up. Works very well. Best method I've found is to have a bucket of soapy water (hot soapy water, if it's a cold day) to dunk the sandpaper in, and just a trickle of fresh water across the surface to clear the sanding sludge as you go.

Not sure how it works on aluminum, works great on any fiberglass surface or finish

- DSK

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43 minutes ago, Flags said:

OK talk to me, I have never heard of using soapy water when wet sanding? Whats the theory, happy to learn about this.....

Helps to keep the water between the paper, and the surface, so the paper doesn't get wrinkled or stuck. Use a little soap, the paper lasts longer. 

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16 minutes ago, Laurence said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ben-ainslie-hits-out-at-gamesmanship-by-italian-rivals-luna-rossa-in-prada-cup-nswt9fdpl

 

Does anyone have access to the rest of this article, or know what the issue is?

If you google Prada protest it seems to go back to the mainsail protest a couple of weeks ago. Rehash by journo?

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Yes, the same issue:

The British team, funded by Ineos co-founder Sir Jim Ratcliffe, have been carrying a penalty from the first round robin in mid-January after the Italian team’s reconnaissance group spotted a small irregularity on Britannia’s mainsail. The danger now is that if the Italians can find another infringement, Ainslie’s team will be docked one race.
 
The Italians spotted a small irregularity in the way a line that controls the foot of the mainsail was integrated into the sail on Britannia and successfully protested. This was despite the fact that the rigging solution the British team was using was not, as the team put it, “performance enhancing.”
 
Ainslie and his rules advisors have since tried to have this sort of draconian punishment for a minor “offence” of this kind outlawed, because they do not believe that Prada Cup races should be lost in this way. They also want to avoid the series descending into a tit-for-tat measurement battle which would do the reputation of the sport no good. But Luna Rossa, the Challenger of Record (the team that organises the challenger selection series) have refused to change it.
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1 hour ago, Flags said:

OK talk to me, I have never heard of using soapy water when wet sanding? Whats the theory, happy to learn about this.....

 

Pleasure, but Steam Flyer was quicker. Because the soap reduces the liquid tension it ...

1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Keeps the sandpaper from clogging up. Works very well. Best method I've found is to have a bucket of soapy water (hot soapy water, if it's a cold day) to dunk the sandpaper in, and just a trickle of fresh water across the surface to clear the sanding sludge as you go.

Not sure how it works on aluminum, works great on any fiberglass surface or finish

- DSK

(On smaller bits of aluminium I have used (thinned) spiritus, same as in cooling it when milling or drilling. Don't smoke.)

 

... and so was jhc ...

1 hour ago, jhc said:

Helps to keep the water between the paper, and the surface, so the paper doesn't get wrinkled or stuck. Use a little soap, the paper lasts longer. 

 

... I might add, that I wouldn't use it for preparing a paint job (because of the soap) but rather for fixing up surfaces for an evenly matte or eventually polished finish. Also, with the finer grits I like to "break in" new paper with a few light strokes to cut the inevitable few sharper teeth.

 

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1 hour ago, weta27 said:

Yes, the same issue:

The British team, funded by Ineos co-founder Sir Jim Ratcliffe, have been carrying a penalty from the first round robin in mid-January after the Italian team’s reconnaissance group spotted a small irregularity on Britannia’s mainsail. The danger now is that if the Italians can find another infringement, Ainslie’s team will be docked one race.
 
The Italians spotted a small irregularity in the way a line that controls the foot of the mainsail was integrated into the sail on Britannia and successfully protested. This was despite the fact that the rigging solution the British team was using was not, as the team put it, “performance enhancing.”
 
 

I really hate this lawyer lead rule book bullshit. I remember the kiwi challenge in 92 where Paul Cayard played merry hell over the bowsprit. In the end it did effect the kiwi challenge. 

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6 minutes ago, mako23 said:
1 hour ago, weta27 said:
.... The Italians spotted a small irregularity in the way a line that controls the foot of the mainsail was integrated into the sail on Britannia and successfully protested. This was despite the fact that the rigging solution the British team was using was not, as the team put it, “performance enhancing.”
 
 

I really hate this lawyer lead rule book bullshit. I remember the kiwi challenge in 92 where Paul Cayard played merry hell over the bowsprit. In the end it did effect the kiwi challenge. 

Psychological battle. Saps momentum & confidence from the team being protested.

It doesn't sound like it would be a big deal, but a surprising number of times, it rocks a competitor back out of the drivers seat and they never get back to their best.

- DSK

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10 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I really hate this lawyer lead rule book bullshit. I remember the kiwi challenge in 92 where Paul Cayard played merry hell over the bowsprit. In the end it did effect the kiwi challenge. 

Isn't that the whole point of it, to get inside their heads.

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31 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Psychological battle. Saps momentum & confidence from the team being protested.

It doesn't sound like it would be a big deal, but a surprising number of times, it rocks a competitor back out of the drivers seat and they never get back to their best.

- DSK

Didn't seem to work this time round.

Jimmy should have learned from history: you don't want to make Ben angry, you won't like it when he's angry. Ask Robert Scheldt

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40 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Isn't that the whole point of it, to get inside their heads.


yes your correct the whole point is to cause psychological distress 

It’s legal but poor sportsmanship. The other syndicates didn’t have to help when AM got a hole in the side. However good sportsmanship prevailed. I’m for one are glad that they did help. 

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10 hours ago, Grog said:

 

... I might add, that I wouldn't use it for preparing a paint job (because of the soap) but rather for fixing up surfaces for an evenly matte or eventually polished finish. .......

 

Yes Nacra 17 foils :)

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22 hours ago, dullers said:

Nothing is happening. No races, so why am I on here?

The wine, good food and stimulating conversation in the manner of dining at La Colombe d’Or in a summer's evening.

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11 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Didn't seem to work this time round.

Jimmy should have learned from history: you don't want to make Ben angry, you won't like it when he's angry. Ask Robert Scheldt

I rewatched that race, What amazing skill. 

It's a shame we didn't get to see all four boats on the water together,  I would pay good money to watch Ben do the same to Jimmy in the AC75's

Let's hope we see some more close races where boat speed isn't the only factor.

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1 minute ago, Laurence said:

I rewatched that race, What amazing skill. 

 

Oh yes. Absolutely incredible. One of the truly great olympic performances. 

I'm sure all the other helms n this AC have watched it too!

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1 hour ago, chesirecat said:

The wine, good food and stimulating conversation in the manner of dining at La Colombe d’Or in a summer's evening.

To dine there in the 50s. That would be something in our grey dreary lockdown world.

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11 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Psychological battle. Saps momentum & confidence from the team being protested.

It doesn't sound like it would be a big deal, but a surprising number of times, it rocks a competitor back out of the drivers seat and they never get back to their best.

- DSK

Was that protest made after the first or second race against Prada?  I think they wish they could get inside Bens head. If they could they might have picked up on what makes him so good.

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24 minutes ago, dullers said:

Was that protest made after the first or second race against Prada?  I think they wish they could get inside Bens head. If they could they might have picked up on what makes him so good.

After first day, so 1st race against Prada.

Like I said, doesn't seem to have impacted GB too much since then

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25 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

After first day, so 1st race against Prada.

Like I said, doesn't seem to have impacted GB too much since then

Nobody is forcing or bending the rules here (as was common practice in recent America's Cups), and there is no need to change them either. The boats must be compliant. There are means to officially ask for clarifications in case of doubts. I don't think this will affect the finals nor that it was some sort of mind game. I add that I doubt any mind game could affect a sailor of the calibre of Ben Ainsile.

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3 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

After first day, so 1st race against Prada.

Like I said, doesn't seem to have impacted GB too much since then

I agree, in fact i think the real  mind game was won in the race with the final cross and dodgy cunningham. Has INEOS been out on the water since the 28th??

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2 hours ago, strider470 said:

Nobody is forcing or bending the rules here (as was common practice in recent America's Cups), and there is no need to change them either. The boats must be compliant. There are means to officially ask for clarifications in case of doubts. I don't think this will affect the finals nor that it was some sort of mind game. I add that I doubt any mind game could affect a sailor of the calibre of Ben Ainsile.

Will the challenger race against the defender with a clean slate? That is the real issue...Seeing as it hands an advantage to the defender.

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5 minutes ago, dullers said:

Will the challenger race against the defender with a clean slate? That is the real issue...Seeing as it hands an advantage to the defender.

As it currently stands, no I think,. And I agree that is unfair. But they said NZ were amenable to a rule change, so once GB beat LR...;)

 

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