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I am amazed that Ben still trots out the trope that the rules violation they committed was not "performance enhancing". That is just BS. He needs to drop it.

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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

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8 minutes ago, weta27 said:

And no mention of FCS issues, the ones that he blamed ETNZ for,

Oh my Christ, I completely forgot that  BA dared to question if the OD FCS was being treated fairly. And about if ETNZ may have better software and support versions? Blasphemy - Hang ‘em up!!!!! Buuuurn the Witches!!!!!!!
 

:D 

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2 hours ago, Lat35sowth said:

Oooo...she called him old,  thats gotta hurt.

In the interests s of equality i noticed her looking at his hands.

Screenshot (1863).png

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3 hours ago, southseasbill said:

Ben's toughest challenge. Not staring at her cleavage:

 

In the interests of equality i noticed she looked at his hands.

 

Screenshot (1863)_1600x900.jpg

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26 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Oh my Christ, I completely forgot that  BA dared to question if the OD FCS was being treated fairly. And about if ETNZ may have better software and support versions? Blasphemy - Hang ‘em up!!!!! Buuuurn the Witches!!!!!!!
 

:D 

If it was  ETNZ's fault when it didn't work, then presumably it was ETNZ that fixed the problem??

Around the same time that Rita suddenly became so much more stable and so much faster??? :ph34r:

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8 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Ineos have been seen out on the water towing a bit and by all reports could be foil tweaks? Anyone else got any info on this, sounds very late for a foil tweak or change?

https://www.youtube.com/post/UgwUvewkt4JcK87Spbp4AaABCQ

 

They were measured on Monday so I doubt they can do any measurement rule tweaks or changes. Could certainly be software/control system though.

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It looks from some angles like they have done something to the foil centre section and there is more of a bulb. Am a bit doubtful as the photo angle is tricky and would seem strange to break it out today. 
 

But there definitely seems to be some kind of protuberance and to my eye the anhedral angle seems flatter. Not sure about that but the protuberance  seems to be there. 

 

 

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They do look a bit different from this angle. As if the foil flaps are quite a bit shorter and intersection between vertical and foils looks to have a different shape 

The tip of the 'bulbous' bit seems to be reaching further out in front of the foil arm vertical stock 

Could be just the angle of this view though... 

Screenshot_20210212-073546-01.jpeg.e3eab893fccb21380f0d200ca3f2645a.jpeg

 

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Yeah there has always been a small lump on the front but that looks more visible. 
 

Re the dihedral angle: the Mar e Vela Italians reckon that everyone who has an angle (all challengers) is using 15 deg and that’s the maximum you can get to fit it in the rule box, so if you are going for that approach you are going to hit 15 degrees. Maybe unlikely to change but guess we’ll get some close ups tomorrow. 

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7 hours ago, nroose said:

I am amazed that Ben still trots out the trope that the rules violation they committed was not "performance enhancing". That is just BS. He needs to drop it.

So the MC lied in the official document then? 

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Ben Ainslie's Ineos Team UK are into the final of the Challenger Series - which will determine who faces Team New Zealand for the America's Cup in March.

They face Italy's Luna Rossa in the Prada Cup final, a best-of-13 series starting on Saturday in Auckland - with the first four races live on the BBC.

The winners will take on holders Team New Zealand for the 35th America's Cup from 6-21 March.

Ineos Team UK is bidding to become the first British team to win the trophy.

 

https://www.bbc.com/sport/sailing/55865520?fbclid=IwAR2Fdv2ffS-NjSsSMxueiF7C7ZBErOYlGR57rulHuIXeaSH4H83cW0WigUo

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19 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

 

One thing I've noticed about Ineos lately - they don't look like they are sailing with as much bow down pitch as they used to. Maybe it's lower wind strengths, and they want to retain a bit of AoI effect on the foil, but I don't really know.

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2 hours ago, KingMonkey said:

Yeah there has always been a small lump on the front but that looks more visible. 
 

Re the dihedral angle: the Mar e Vela Italians reckon that everyone who has an angle (all challengers) is using 15 deg and that’s the maximum you can get to fit it in the rule box, so if you are going for that approach you are going to hit 15 degrees. Maybe unlikely to change but guess we’ll get some close ups tomorrow. 

The anhedral angle does vary a bit, but certainly ~15° is the maximum.  GB has about 24° with their W foil due it's shape, but I haven't had a suitable pic of their latest foil to gauge the Y foil angle, only the planform.   LR is using ~13.4°.

image.png.f196d64d79869904d537784f1415d4be.png

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17 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

The anhedral angle does vary a bit, but certainly ~15° is the maximum.  GB has about 24° with their W foil due it's shape, but I haven't had a suitable pic of their latest foil to gauge the Y foil angle, only the planform.   LR is using ~13.4°.

image.png.f196d64d79869904d537784f1415d4be.png

TU QUOQUE, @MaxHugen, FILI MI!

Luna ROSSSSSSSSA. I don't understand if maybe you have to pay more for the double letter usage abroad. :) :)

 

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46 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

One thing I've noticed about Ineos lately - they don't look like they are sailing with as much bow down pitch as they used to. Maybe it's lower wind strengths, and they want to retain a bit of AoI effect on the foil, but I don't really know.

What’s been consistent with them is not looking especially fast but then suddenly accelerate at specific points maintaining it then backing off.

Ride height upwind too, when they hunker down and hold the boat low it’s in another gear, but then lift up slow down and wind it back 

I think they have very specific modes and are not charging around flat out the entire time 

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8 minutes ago, strider470 said:

TU QUOQUE, @MaxHugen, FILI MI!

Luna ROSSSSSSSSA. I don't understand if maybe you have to pay more for the double letter usage abroad. :) :)

 

 
Ho la faccia rossa!  Apologies, fixed it. :(
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10 hours ago, nroose said:

I am amazed that Ben still trots out the trope that the rules violation they committed was not "performance enhancing". That is just BS. He needs to drop it.

I bet you were looking for a reaction. Well you wont get one......blistering haddock i just reacted and fell for your cunning trick you rascally knave. 

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9 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

What’s been consistent with them is not looking especially fast but then suddenly accelerate at specific points maintaining it then backing off.

Ride height upwind too, when they hunker down and hold the boat low it’s in another gear, but then lift up slow down and wind it back 

I think they have very specific modes and are not charging around flat out the entire time 

Good point. Perhaps BA is sharpening his pre-start tactics? The ability to slow down, then very quickly accelerate could be quite useful at that time...

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1 hour ago, strider470 said:

We are ready

7cc43a212ac88cfbd29ad0eebf0ec28c.jpg.f95d58a92cee075c993afbf63fdcc5dd.jpg2019-ferrari-f8-tributo-00003_9ew0kx.thumb.jpg.3fe0388ae8c9b39bf302ec646a1ad924.jpg

The foil is oddly located on the roof of the UK entry. Planning on being upsidedown for the race?

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1 minute ago, Nutta said:

The foil us oddly located in the roof of the UK entry. Planning on being upsidedown for the race?

I have been on parades with that Landover.

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3 minutes ago, strider470 said:

I don't blame anyone for their music preferences

You really should with that group.

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23 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Pretty unique in sports, a star taking an interview with his wife. It works, somehow :) 

Happened before, Spanish goalie was interviewed by his soccer reporter wive when they became World Champion. Spanish.. so started crying offcourse (he)

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49 minutes ago, underperformer said:

Happened before, Spanish goalie was interviewed by his soccer reporter wive when they became World Champion. Spanish.. so started crying offcourse (he)

She's his wife now... Nobody knew she was his girlfriend until that day.

 

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2 hours ago, strider470 said:

To all my British friends: let’s enjoy the race. In bocca al lupo e che vinca il migliore. 

Yes let’s have a good clean race that’s close and exciting 

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18 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

So the MC lied in the official document then? 

Seems like that is out of context. Every detail of these boats affects performance.

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15 hours ago, dullers said:

I bet you were looking for a reaction. Well you wont get one......blistering haddock i just reacted and fell for your cunning trick you rascally knave. 

I was expressing an opinion. And you did react.

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6 minutes ago, dullers said:

Wrong sail in that race.

And wrong boat.

 

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9 minutes ago, Nutta said:

And wrong boat.

 

You might be right. Look forward to the Kiwis on our balls today.

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41 minutes ago, dullers said:

You might be right. Look forward to the Kiwis on our balls today.

LRPP was always going to be quicker down the wind range, Dullers. The next two might go the same way, but even then, early days. 

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20 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

LRPP was always going to be quicker down the wind range, Dullers. The next two might go the same way, but even then, early days. 

Finally some sense! Prada were always supposed to be a light air weapon, finally they put it all together today 

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Just now, Forourselves said:

FFS. 2 of the best foiling sailors in the world today, and ones coaching and the other is a commentator! 

His choice to take the cash.. his choice to stay. 
 

was  doing the same job when INEOS  were 5-0 and didn’t hear any complaints he wasn’t sailing then. 

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

You might be right. Look forward to the Kiwis on our balls today.

This is not the Christmas racing series. The second race was not a massive difference time wise.  Maybe a tweak on the sails and sailing mode change and things can be better. Nothing has changed for RITA she still has to win 7 races. 

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Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Prada
If You Think We're On The Run?
We Are The Boys Who Will Stop Your Little Game
We Are The Boys Who Will Make You Think Again
'Cause Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Prada 
If You Think Old England's Done?

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30 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

His choice to take the cash.. his choice to stay. 
 

was  doing the same job when INEOS  were 5-0 and didn’t hear any complaints he wasn’t sailing then. 

because it didn't matter then, like it does now. Surely you'd want your best sailors on board when your backs are against the wall.

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

LRPP was always going to be quicker down the wind range, Dullers. The next two might go the same way, but even then, early days. 

By this time tomorrow SBD it won't be early days.! By this time tomorrow it will be getting late now days for one team me thinks.............

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2 hours ago, mako23 said:

Nothing has changed for RITA she still has to win 7 races. 

Channeling and paraphrasing John Bertrand - Newport '83?

You're not wrong though.

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After sober reflection I do think that Ineos is faster than Rita. However the gap is less than Ineos versus AM.

In the first race non of the other boats including ETNZ would of won.  LR is clearly very good in the light.
In the second race lost by 26 seconds, some of that time could be attributed to choice of head sail. The bigger headsails have a lot of drag at high speed. 
 

With better sail choices and higher winds Ineos will be competitive. However if it’s 4  zip at the end of tomorrow it’s going to be very hard for Ineos. 

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7 minutes ago, mako23 said:

After sober reflection I do think that Ineos is faster than Rita. However the gap is less than Ineos versus AM.

 

Do you mean LR is faster that Rita? Gap less than LR versus AM? 

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4 hours ago, mako23 said:

This is not the Christmas racing series. The second race was not a massive difference time wise.  Maybe a tweak on the sails and sailing mode change and things can be better. Nothing has changed for RITA she still has to win 7 races. 

They were spooked by the first race, (light wind) and this affected their judgement re: jib choice for the second race. They are human after all.... As good as Ben is.

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Yeah second race not too bad. Jimmy was able to cover going up to the final top mark and Rita had to do one more tack then. 10 seconds. A few seconds for the right jib. It was close but ultimately Ben still lost. 
 

... when one boat is foiling and one not it is just incredibly painful to watch. 

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Balls lade out for stomping by Kiwis between 1800 hours local each day until 1615 each day. Balls maybe withdrawn dependant on race results.  Well done Italy.

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Mornin’ Dullers…

Prada Cup Final Day 1

Defo an eeek moment for the Brit AC fans, seeing Britannia and Ineos on the back-foot.

Race 1: RITA glued to the sea atop the start line (ouch)… and then Race 2: the Italians just a hop-skip-n-a-jump ahead at all points of sail.

Quote of the day Shirley “Luna Rossa… just a click of extra pace…”

Indeed… tis not over till the meaty Italian lady opera singer belts it out.

And when the going gets tough, Ben and co get going... let’s face it… would be boring if the fight was always one handed. Congrats to the Italians, they for sure socked it to the Poms today!

I N I Z I O   P A R T I T A

rys_01.png.be14a3cf8f7d2168a060a126cc03114a.png

 

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1 hour ago, Potter said:

Do you mean LR is faster that Rita? Gap less than LR versus AM? 

It means I’ve had a brain fart

LR is faster than Rita but the gap is less than  LR vs AM

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I looked at the two stern cameras at the start of race 2, trying to work out how LR suddenly leapt ahead. Just after start,  Bruni says they can’t live on Rita’s hip after the start and they are dropping back. They get ready for the tack and go for it although were  living there just fine again by the time of the tack. Straight after the tack Bruni says “we’re in phase, 38 is hard left” and the numbers start to jump up. 
 

Meanwhile on Rita Giles makes the call to go for the boundary, out of phase as we realise from the LR cam. Their tack is OK but they are 2/3 of a length behind. Then Giles takes the wheel for the duck and gets it wrong, goes too low and gets a roasting from Ben. 2-3 lengths down now. 
 

Just after the cross Jimmy says “big righty” LR still in phase, Rita still out  and by the time of the next cross LR in full control of the race course and at least 10-15 seconds up. Splits roughly even for next two laps then LR forces an extra tack on Rita on final beat (Giles had previously said “we’re two and into the left” but they had to do three and to the right). So another 10 seconds down after Rita had caught up a very small amount on that beat before that. 
 

So while it was not pretty viewing for the Brit fans, it was strongly down to that first tack onto port which LR felt forced to do. They didn’t do the tack to catch the shift, that was just luck. So I don’t think it’s the end of the world. However, clearly Rita is not faster but I don’t think any slower in 10 kts plus. 

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I think the jib was too large. And then it hadn't been tweeked (leech line) which made it a bit more painful. Also looked like INEOS had a larger main on, certainly in the head judging by the logo sizes. 

I think the first race was a given, possibly electing for the starboard entry in light breeze was a mistake, but LR was always heavily favoured. The second race will have hurt though. Probably would have a been tighter with lead changes if they had the correct sails on... but they didn't and that's racing. INEOS have had a pretty good run of luck on who they raced and when, and today that luck just ran out.

Plus, LR sailed a pretty much faultless race. Big thing for me is they've just got better at realising when they have a advantage in speed they just need to race. No facing tacks, just let the boat rip. 

But... I still expect a close series. Throw in the right sails, plus a few shifts and gusts and we'll get more interesting races.

 

Jibs.jpg

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Getting the sails wrong seems a pretty basic mistake from a top class outfit. And LR looked altogether smoother and fast. To me, INEOS looked rattled. Plenty of time but not the start many of us expected. 

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Sorry Brits but Britannia's sail is 10% worse than LR's.  Sir Ben's solid boom, and inability to shape the wing for down low power is a huge difference.  Several things make up some for this but less than 10knots they are not competitive and above their ability to do crisp tacks/gybes comes down to lack of ability to control the twin skin.

It is not too late for them to get this right it is maybe nearly impossible, that's all.  IMHO.

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1 hour ago, Paddywackery said:

Getting the sails wrong seems a pretty basic mistake from a top class outfit. And LR looked altogether smoother and fast. To me, INEOS looked rattled. Plenty of time but not the start many of us expected. 

Luna Rossa have made some big improvements upwind, I think we will go 4-0 down, lets hope the design team have some new parts on the way. 

we were consistently slower up wind on both races, and we now seem to have lost our downwind advantage. 

I'm not convinced, the problems aren't deeper than just wrong jib, lets hope. 

Todays races were as boring as sin, wish I hadn't stayed up. The races were alot more interesting inshore, Allows Giles to earn his money. 

 

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Compared to Lr, Ben’s main looked flat as fuck. It looked flat even compared tk what they were running in the round robins. Also LR were pointing slightly closer to the wind and weren’t losing ANY distance in tacks/gybes. 

I think UK boat handling was worse than team handbag by a considerable amount in AC terms. 

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20 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

Sorry Brits but Britannia's sail is 10% worse than LR's.  Sir Ben's solid boom, and inability to shape the wing for down low power is a huge difference.  Several things make up some for this but less than 10knots they are not competitive and above their ability to do crisp tacks/gybes comes down to lack of ability to control the twin skin.

It is not too late for them to get this right it is maybe nearly impossible, that's all.  IMHO.

I’m pretty sure they can sail with a deeper main. What surprised me the most is LR were NOT easing the main out of a tack/gybe and UK was. That’s really weird, and I bet there’s some pretty nice gains to be made from changing that. 

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18 minutes ago, Laurence said:

Luna Rossa have made some big improvements upwind, I think we will go 4-0 down, lets hope the design team have some new parts on the way. 

.....

I think the boats have measured for the entire Prada Cup final series. I'm not sure what the design team can play with.

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1 hour ago, Paddywackery said:

Getting the sails wrong seems a pretty basic mistake from a top class outfit. And LR looked altogether smoother and fast. To me, INEOS looked rattled. Plenty of time but not the start many of us expected. 

Maybe  INEOS were rattled by coming off the foils in the first start and so were too conservative with their choice of the bigger jib for the second race.

LR had a speed edge today but it's still close. Some people are calling this too early.

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In all sport, momentum matters. INEOS has lost a touch of invincibility which is probably no harm. And the much admired afterguard have now shown, like everyone else, that pressure causes mistakes. 

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48 minutes ago, Laurence said:

Luna Rossa have made some big improvements upwind, I think we will go 4-0 down, lets hope the design team have some new parts on the way. 

we were consistently slower up wind on both races, and we now seem to have lost our downwind advantage. 

I'm not convinced, the problems aren't deeper than just wrong jib, lets hope. 

Todays races were as boring as sin, wish I hadn't stayed up. The races were alot more interesting inshore, Allows Giles to earn his money. 

 

Psst, it’s a 13 race series. First one to 7, wins.

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