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16 minutes ago, Raptorsailor said:

Well. We almost got to the Cup.

I think the debrief is going to be particularly harsh as it’s hard to see where they made big ass mistakes. Sure they had a slow boat but what were the fundamental mistakes that led them to making a slow boat? It’s hard to see them. 

Foils not refined enough. 
Boom off an old keeler. 
Bottom of the main like and old bed sheet. 

Pretty average in the pre start. 
Skipper stopped listening to his tactician. 
Ugly boat. 

 

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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

And so it begins. Image credit and copyright Allesandro Spiga  

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During the press conference Ben pretty much ruled out helping the Italians.  If ETNZ win they have the boat and the base already in NZ. So makes financial sense to help the Kiwis 

Also Team GB must hate LR in they way they acted in the Prada Cup

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53 minutes ago, Raptorsailor said:

it’s hard to see where they made big ass mistakes.

The big advantage ETNZ had after the last cup cycle was in their personnel, and the tools those people had to use. In particular it's the design staff, their relationship with the sailing team, and the communication between those two groups, plus the simulator and CFD/VPP software.

The Brits finished the last cup aware of their defecit in design know how. They largely addressed that with Holroyd/Simmer but of course they were almost starting from scratch with software tools that were a generation behind those of ETNZ. Because of the deal between ETNZ & Prada Luna Rossa, the italians were in a similar position to ETNZ, with access to much of the code & data from the Kiwi's.

We will see shortly a comparison between Luna Rossa and ETNZ. It may be that the Brits are very close to what is required. Clearly they are much better this time around than last, and who knows what may have happened in a world without Covid. If they can keep key staff, and perhaps recruit judiciously then they will be serious challengers next time, hopefully in Auckland!

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They asked Ben if he will be hanging around to watch the final. Of course he will be there, he will be in the RNSYS boat handing over the challenge and being COR it ETNZ wins 

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One team takes the low to medium wind speed route and the other the medium to high. The weather gods played the former cards. It's difficult to reconfigure the boat if the mast step is locked in at design stage. A few millimeters here  makes a significant difference in light or medium performance a and an AC75 will be more tender. INEOS is a fast enough boat in the medium to high and they did very well against LR. LR put together a great campaign and deserved to win. Much will depend on the wind for the AC itself and how efficiently they can evolve. I hope Ineos will stay in the AC, they have a great team in Ben, Giles and the others and they are certainly up to the challenge. 

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1 minute ago, mako23 said:

They asked Ben if he will be hanging around to watch the final. Of course he will be there, he will be in the RNSYS boat handing over the challenge and being COR it ETNZ wins 

Yes, I reckon you're right. Most wouldn't have a problem with it either. 

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15 minutes ago, mako23 said:

They asked Ben if he will be hanging around to watch the final. Of course he will be there, he will be in the RNSYS boat handing over the challenge and being COR it ETNZ wins 

Is Ben a club official, like a commodore or such? 

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4 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Is Ben a club official, like a commodore or such?  

Delivery doesn't need to be by a club official.

But its certainly hard to argue with a direct Commodore to Commodore transfer as the victor crosses the line.

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1 minute ago, hoom said:

Delivery doesn't need to be by a club official.

But its certainly hard to argue with a direct Commodore to Commodore transfer as the victor crosses the line.

So, I could go there and deliver a challenge on the Club's behalf, e.g. being a random guest and simple Club member on the boat? 

It's splitting hares, I know :).

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

During the press conference Ben pretty much ruled out helping the Italians.  If ETNZ win they have the boat and the base already in NZ. So makes financial sense to help the Kiwis 

Also Team GB must hate LR in they way they acted in the Prada Cup

Well. If they had supported LR they might have raced in more wind last Thursday or Friday! Would not have made any difference in the end though. Like Bermuda, slower boat.

What about the last minute measurement protest about how the Italians used their jib winch. That seemed a bit pretty.

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10 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

So, I could go there and deliver a challenge on the Club's behalf, e.g. being a random guest and simple Club member on the boat? 

It's splitting hares, I know :).

As long as the written Notice of Challenge delivered itself came from an appropriately authorised officer of the club and you could actually get there to deliver it, sure.

 

Quote

The Challenging Club shall give ten months' notice, in writing, naming the days for the proposed races;... Accompanying the ten months' notice of challenge there must be sent the name of the owner and a certificate of the name, rig and following dimensions of the challenging vessel, namely, length on load water-line; beam at load water-line and extreme beam; and draught of water;

 

Fay sent lawyers I believe.

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“When defeat comes, accept it as a signal that your plans were not sound, rebuild those plans, and set sail once more toward your coveted goal...”

Ben, Gilo and Team INEOS you gave it your very best shot, AND good to see in the presser that honour holds in defeat.

Heads, down… regroup and shoot for it again!


rys_01.png.8b2ccc47b516c9b2d56e9f352c5c1cf6.png

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3 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

Well. We almost got to the Cup.

I think the debrief is going to be particularly harsh as it’s hard to see where they made big ass mistakes. Sure they had a slow boat but what were the fundamental mistakes that led them to making a slow boat? It’s hard to see them. 

:blink:

What were you watching?

 

Ineos was nowhere near getting the Cup. 

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Unfortunately after about a lap of R1 today it became clear that the sea breeze wasn’t going to get over 8-10 and we’ve seen plenty of times what happens when that’s the case. 

Plenty of future for the team and let’s hope for some stability in the class next time around. We heard Jim Radcliffe talking about a level playing field yesterday which is crucial and will require the Kiwis to win the AC in order to achieve.

Same class rules, entry level teams buying one second hand and building one new boat. Existing teams have their cup boats plus one new. Volvo-style women rules? Decent AC World Series will help everyone develop which let’s be honest was sadly sorely missed here. Lots to look forward to and Jim Radcliffe still has 18.9 billion left (although I think he funds only part of the team and does it with his two co-owners).

So here’s hoping for a kiwi win and an end to frankly 13 years of, not exactly instability once 2010 was done but certainly not much long-term planning. 

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14 minutes ago, lupedelupe said:

:blink:

What were you watching?

 

Ineos was nowhere near getting the Cup. 

Somebody missed the purple font there...

 

On Rita's progress and lack of, seems to me that after their disastrous Christmas Cup regatta, Ineos basically threw everything possible at the boat, meaning every single upgrade they had on the drawing boards. This gave them some advantage during the round robins, but left nothing much on the table to prepare for the finals.

In these competitions it is always vitally important to be able to continuously upgrade your boat. That means you need to start with a platform that has a solid basis of performance, but one that also provides avenues of continuous improvement, where you can adapt to the lessons you learn on the race course and keep on improving.

But at least my theory that ugly boats can't be fast has now thankfully been confirmed!

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2 minutes ago, KingMonkey said:

...

Same class rules, entry level teams buying one second hand and building one new boat. Existing teams have their cup boats plus one new. Volvo-style women rules? Decent AC World Series will help everyone develop which let’s be honest was sadly sorely missed here. Lots to look forward to and Jim Radcliffe still has 18.9 billion left (although I think he funds only part of the team and does it with his two co-owners).

So here’s hoping for a kiwi win and an end to frankly 13 years of, not exactly instability once 2010 was done but certainly not much long-term planning. 

Time to set up a class association independent from the AC holders

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4 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

Time to set up a class association independent from the AC holders

Yes, also a good idea. Everything like that. We need the same boat for the next cycle. Personally I liked the 75s but am not saying it’s necessarily the best boat, it just needs to be the same and ideally for several cycles. 

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10 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

Time to set up a class association independent from the AC holders

They already did, it's SailGP. But unless they change the Deed of Gift, and I don't even know if it's possible, there is no way to 100% enforce the use of a Class across different AC.

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1 minute ago, strider470 said:

They already did, it's SailGP. But unless they change the Deed of Gift, and I don't even know if it's possible, there is no way to 100% enforce the use of a Class across different AC.

Sail GP is just an entity that developed the AC50's further and provides them to teams to race.

I'm talking about an association of all the current teams that participated with the AC75's coming together to agree on further development of the class. Some kind of consensus seems to be emerging that these are good boats and deserve a few more cycles.

Only a Class Association can ensure that the older boats remain of value to the teams, by being able to sell them off to new teams interested in joining the next cup, where ever it will be held.

Only a Class Association can set up an annual or bi-annual AC75 World Cup, that would provide some racing independent of the Cup cycle.

If this does not happen, everything will grind to a halt in a few weeks time, waiting for the holders and the new COR to negotiate a protocol and decide what kind of boat they want, and more importantly how far that boat will be from the current AC75's.

Those negotiations will be guided exclusively by the interests of the holder and COR, and might take up to a year.

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23 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

Sail GP is just an entity that developed the AC50's further and provides them to teams to race.

I'm talking about an association of all the current teams that participated with the AC75's coming together to agree on further development of the class. Some kind of consensus seems to be emerging that these are good boats and deserve a few more cycles.

Only a Class Association can ensure that the older boats remain of value to the teams, by being able to sell them off to new teams interested in joining the next cup, where ever it will be held.

Only a Class Association can set up an annual or bi-annual AC75 World Cup, that would provide some racing independent of the Cup cycle.

If this does not happen, everything will grind to a halt in a few weeks time, waiting for the holders and the new COR to negotiate a protocol and decide what kind of boat they want, and more importantly how far that boat will be from the current AC75's.

Those negotiations will be guided exclusively by the interests of the holder and COR, and might take up to a year.

Yes I agree, what I ment is that a if a COR decides not to follow the agreement for whatever reason,  the Deed still is what it is.

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16 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Yes I agree, what I ment is that a if a COR decides not to follow the agreement for whatever reason,  the Deed still is what it is.

Of course the holder and COR can do what they want in the confines of the DoG, hell, they can decide to go back to J-classes if that's what they want

But this is the first time in a decade or more that all competitors appear to share some enthusiasm for the boats designed for this cycle - that's why early commitment to an AC75 Class Association can only be good news for the Cup

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3 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

So, I could go there and deliver a challenge on the Club's behalf, e.g. being a random guest and simple Club member on the boat? 

It's splitting hares, I know :).

As long as the challenge is authorised by the club. I vaguely recall that the first New Zealand Challenge (not COR) was lodged by a private individual Marcel Fachler, a Belgian living in Sydney.

 

PS. I looked it up. Marcel paid the entry fee and then informed the RNZYS that they had entered ;)

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9 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

Of course the holder and COR can do what they want in the confines of the DoG, hell, they can decide to go back to J-classes if that's what they want

But this is the first time in a decade or more that all competitors appear to share some enthusiasm for the boats designed for this cycle - that's why early commitment to an AC75 Class Association can only be good news for the Cup

Let's hope. I heard that LR too is keen to continue on a development in AC75 should they win.

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6 minutes ago, strider470 said:

LR too is keen to continue on a development in AC75 should they win.

Yes unfortunately we have seen with the removal of the 15 minute delay rule in the semis and they changes in wind limits how keen they are on a level playing field. 

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17 minutes ago, Raptorsailor said:

Have you seen Te Rehutai?

And from what we know, she’s not slow. 

Agree that TR does not have the sleek beauty of LR, but her shape makes sense without the jarring excesses of Rita

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Well us Brits had a little bit of a set back this morning. Well the only way out of this pickle is to have a cup of tea and the full Monty. Done in official yellow.

 

170 years of solving problems with a cup of tea.

DSCF6621.JPG

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7 minutes ago, KingMonkey said:

Yes unfortunately we have seen with the removal of the 15 minute delay rule in the semis and they changes in wind limits how keen they are on a level playing field. 

The decision was both by defender and COR

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49 minutes ago, Marinatrix447 said:

170 years of solving problems with a cup of tea... and a dash of ketchup!

DSCF6621.thumb.JPG.69b7142eb720e9a53d9c5ef6ebe45eea.JPG.f441274680d5f3c35bcf2e0d9f33423a.JPG

I got it all. HP on the left and Ketchup on the right. Good for both low wind and high wind performance.  Ha just noticed the bread.

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Just now, JALhazmat said:

so why make the changes ;)

Because they (cor and defender) feared the 23 kts wind limit was too risky and the eventuality of suddendly ending a 200 million  campaign by an accident was not worth the benefit.

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5 hours ago, chesirecat said:

One team takes the low to medium wind speed route and the other the medium to high. The weather gods played the former cards. It's difficult to reconfigure the boat if the mast step is locked in at design stage. A few millimeters here  makes a significant difference in light or medium performance a and an AC75 will be more tender. INEOS is a fast enough boat in the medium to high and they did very well against LR. LR put together a great campaign and deserved to win. Much will depend on the wind for the AC itself and how efficiently they can evolve. I hope Ineos will stay in the AC, they have a great team in Ben, Giles and the others and they are certainly up to the challenge. 

Weather stats, not weather gods. The prevailing conditions at this time of the year match LR design brief. For what patch of water/season did INEOS design their boat, one wonders...

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On 2/19/2021 at 10:51 PM, EYESAILOR said:

Fair enough....top tier talent of his generation.

But he has come closer to the triple crown than almost anyone else.

Olympic Gold

Americas Cup

RTW race (formerly volvo, formerly Whitbread)

But yes Nathan vs Ben vs Petey vs Sling vs Jimmy will be fun provided they can bring first class crew. The nationality thang is all very well but for just one event, let them bring the best crew they can put together and have at it.

Technically Blair tuke is one up on him with a 2nd in the last Volvo to Pete's 3rd.  

 

Always going to be a small club

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Sadly, Rita was slower. I wonder if some of the extra LR speed came from more aerodynamic crew positions and the dual helm setup without crossings. Depending on the Kiwi innovations, perhaps helm crossings are becoming a thing of the past?

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5 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

Sail GP is just an entity that developed the AC50's further and provides them to teams to race.

I'm talking about an association of all the current teams that participated with the AC75's coming together to agree on further development of the class. Some kind of consensus seems to be emerging that these are good boats and deserve a few more cycles.

Only a Class Association can ensure that the older boats remain of value to the teams, by being able to sell them off to new teams interested in joining the next cup, where ever it will be held.

Only a Class Association can set up an annual or bi-annual AC75 World Cup, that would provide some racing independent of the Cup cycle.

If this does not happen, everything will grind to a halt in a few weeks time, waiting for the holders and the new COR to negotiate a protocol and decide what kind of boat they want, and more importantly how far that boat will be from the current AC75's.

Those negotiations will be guided exclusively by the interests of the holder and COR, and might take up to a year.

Great idea. How would you establish this under the DoG?

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1 minute ago, Rennmaus said:

Great idea. How would you establish this under the DoG?

Completely out of the DoG.

As I said in a prior reply, every new combo holder/COR can freely decide amongst themselves what they want to do. But taking advantage of the current emerging consensus in favor of the AC75 and removing the management and development of the class from the protocol negotiations could help stabilize things, provide continuity for existing teams and provide easier access to the cup for new teams

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2 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

Completely out of the DoG.

As I said in a prior reply, every new combo holder/COR can freely decide amongst themselves what they want to do. But taking advantage of the current emerging consensus in favor of the AC75 and removing the management and development of the class from the protocol negotiations could help stabilize things, provide continuity for existing teams and provide easier access to the cup for new teams

"removing the management and development of the class from the protocol negotiations": If Defender and CoR agree to continue with the current class, all is good. If they don't, bad luck, class management or not. It's not a question of the protocol, it's a DoG question.

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6 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

I'm talking about an association of all the current teams that participated with the AC75's coming together to agree on further development of the class. Some kind of consensus seems to be emerging that these are good boats and deserve a few more cycles.

Only a Class Association can ensure that the older boats remain of value to the teams, by being able to sell them off to new teams interested in joining the next cup, where ever it will be held.

Only a Class Association can set up an annual or bi-annual AC75 World Cup, that would provide some racing independent of the Cup cycle.

 

1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

Great idea. How would you establish this under the DoG?

 

One might say LR’s abdication of CoR powers in AC35 was an embryonic move in this direction - and you know what happened

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49 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

it's a DoG question.

Yes theoretically everyone can sign up to a class association, agree to stability and then win it and do something different. 
 

But for the vast majority of the multi-challenger era it has worked by people not doing that, with 12s and then IACC. Even the AC 90 had agreement that there was a need to move forward in a cohesive manner on design and level playing field before falling apart on how to achieve it. Computer simulation has solved a lot of the problems they had back in 2007-2008 and the court cases in that era will have taught the community a lot about how to avoid loopholes allowing a way in for a rogue DoG.

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1 hour ago, alphafb552 said:

Completely out of the DoG.

As I said in a prior reply, every new combo holder/COR can freely decide amongst themselves what they want to do. But taking advantage of the current emerging consensus in favor of the AC75 and removing the management and development of the class from the protocol negotiations could help stabilize things, provide continuity for existing teams and provide easier access to the cup for new teams

The defender and CoR will decide. I doubt they will delegate their rights to an independent class association.

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It was a good run, but UK knew they were handicapped with the boat design.  They had some good ideas, but it looks like they were never really able to test enough to gain confidence in them.  They threw out some of the ideas from B1 (some that NZ adopted and refined) and tried to adopt ideas from the other teams B1's.  That is just an example of how difficult it is to optimize the design space without getting enough real world data to validate it.  LR has just kept refining their design by picking up minor things from each of the other teams.  

The rules in this AC were specifically written to prevent the teams from getting really world validation data (limits on foils, sails, hull changes, one boat, etc..) so that the original design teams had a substantial advantage.  Now we have much more real world data on how this class of boat sails.  Things like running foil tips out of the water, reducing sail area, jibe and tack maneuvers, flight stability, foil and rudder balances, etc..    

It actually was amazing how close these varying designs were in speed.  We first started with the thought that the boats will just keep it in a straight line and try not to make mistakes.  Now we find they have learned to lose less ground in a maneuver than anyone thought possible (I think they said as little as 5 meters).  It boils down to how the boat is tuned, how it is adjusted to optimize each portion of a maneuver.   

The next cycle of this design will bring the boats even closer together.   I think that Ben and crew did a good job with the limitations that were placed upon them.   Ben is an icon in the sport, everyone wants to take potshots at him.  He handled this whole ordeal with class.

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16 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

The defender and CoR will decide. I doubt they will delegate their rights to an independent class association.

They can, but it doesn't matter. They have inherent rights under the DoG that they could delegate, but they take them back whenever they want.

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43 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

It actually was amazing how close these varying designs were in speed.

Bingo. And it’s not like Ineos were slow in the light to medium, they were actually fast but LR was just a click faster. That was always going to be the case, 1 boat faster in some or most of the wind range. 
 

Agree the rest too. 

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51 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Ben is an icon in the sport, everyone wants to take potshots at him.  He handled this whole ordeal with class.

Wholeheartedly agree that he conducted himself admirably with no trace of ego or attitude and he was gracious in defeat. 
 

 

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On 2/21/2021 at 6:32 AM, .......................... said:

I tried to skim the thread for the answer so sorry if this has been asked 50,000 times before ..... Watching Ben’s interview last night after the race the vents under Ineos were really apparent. Have we found out what these are for ? I watched the footage of tacks and roundings and it does not appear that they are discharging water, what are they for? 

4889E8E0-E56B-4445-BBAE-D160734D608C.jpeg

Just in case no one has given you a straight answer yet, they are drains for the cockpit.

 

ETNZ has the same, although with cover plates. INEOS have always had them. They may have had cover plates, now removed, making them more apparent. 

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3 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Just in case no one has given you a straight answer yet, they are drains for the cockpit.

 

ETNZ has the same, although with cover plates. INEOS have always had them. They may have had cover plates, now removed, making them more apparent. 

Yes, Venturi's - the TV Broadcast did an interview with one of the crew on Ineos and you could see the Grinders area fill with water when the boat was stationary. Once the boat starts moving it self drains.

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The engine room was their huge mistake! Sir Ben saying "the twin sail is not much better than a single main!"  IMHO.

Yes and Sir Ben taking on too many roles - and not doing any one of them well - with the exception of the last two starts!

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

Now we have much more real world data on how this class of boat sails.

Yes. If you think about the huge leap AM and Rita made between boats compared to Prada it is telling in some ways how far they were behind in the boat one era. 

I suspect NZ has made quite a leap between boats also but we’ll find out in two weeks. 

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36 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

The engine room was their huge mistake! Sir Ben saying "the twin sail is not much better than a single main!"  IMHO.

Yes and Sir Ben taking on too many roles - and not doing any one of them well - with the exception of the last two starts!

Sailing a slower boat doesn't make anybody appear very smart. Not even Ben and Giles. Give them equal terms and everything changes. But it's true that maybe he weared too many hats and couldn't be 100% focused.

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14 hours ago, jaysper said:

I'd expect they'd sell B1 and trial B2 with mods.

How much will they de-tune them by before selling them on?  large component parts only?

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8 minutes ago, mad said:

How much will they de-tune them by before selling them on?  large component parts only?

Why bother? They are gen 1 boats after all.

EVERY team will be looking at their gen 2 boats and already have a laundry list of shit they would do differently next time.

So, they will be starting with gen 2.5 boat designs whilst the rest will be starting with gen 1.5 (accounting for the peek new syndicates will have had at the current gen 2 boats).

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13 hours ago, Horn Rock said:
14 hours ago, jaysper said:

I'd expect they'd sell B1 and trial B2 with mods.

Yep....pretty strong indications from Ben that they'll be back in the AC.

Well that's the pension pot started then.:P

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5 minutes ago, mad said:

Well that's the pension pot started then.:P

If he continues losing, at some stage Ben will need to take a hard look at himself and ask if he is the right man for the job.

Much the way Barker probably should have post San Francisco.

Ainslie is clearly a far more talented sailor than Barker, but does he have what it takes to run a syndicate? Or even to be a key member of one?

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

If he continues losing, at some stage Ben will need to take a hard look at himself and ask if he is the right man for the job.

Much the way Barker probably should have post San Francisco.

Ainslie is clearly a far more talented sailor than Barker, but does he have what it takes to run a syndicate? Or even to be a key member of one?

Agree.  I assume Ben has been involved in the design of both BAR and Rita in some form.  If so then questions have to be asked or at least he has to be taken out of the design process.  I wonder how much Burling had to do with the design of the 2017 boat...

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If conditions in this PC Final series had been more uprange (and if you look at late last week and early this week, they could very easily have been) then it’s entirely possible that none of the Ben-bashing would be getting posted.
 

Overall, Ineos were IMO a very good campaign. 

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2 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Sailing a slower boat doesn't make anybody appear very smart. Not even Ben and Giles. Give them equal terms and everything changes. But it's true that maybe he weared too many hats and couldn't be 100% focused.

I think that during the round robins where the small boatspeed deficit was less relevant than shifty puffy course , they showed their class in racing.

Remember BA has focussed his (large) ambitions on the AC for a very long time - I think he has been in and out since the days of One America, getting feet in doors and experience in between Finn sailing at Olympics, doing time with TNZ and then famously with Oracle. He started the British AC team basically with his name hanging over the door and to some extent gambling his legacy as most successful olympic guy in last 50y since Elvstrom, so I expect that he would be reticent to "just" be the helmsman. As a ruthless totalitarian individual, letting other  invariably less capable, driven or motivated individuals (i.e. by proxy anyone other individual) take responsibility for certain aspects is probably tough. That said I think that from what he says in interviews etc, he is pragmatic and understands that whilst he is one of the GOAT, he is not an engineer / designer, but can probably articulate feedback to those guys of very high quality. Whilst perhaps not a natural leader in the manner of say Iain Percy, and knowing how intense he can be and how that is often a benefit in s/h dinghy sailing, I thought he aquitted himself very well in the media, press conferences, on comms towards his team etc. Either that or he has been PR trained half to death, but I doubt it.

If his designers / engineers had put a 2% quicker boat under him (or they'd unlocked > 2% more of its potential a la Oracle 2013) then his position through this thing would have been radically different and everyone would have said that he had nailed the sailing / MGMT balance.

I'm sure they'll be back, Jim Ratcliffe seemed to be loving it. BA didn't win all those gongs without being able to withstand pressure and scrutiny that would cripple most normal people. Once he has had some time off to shake off the haunted weight of the world on shoulders thing, it'll be interesting to see how they move fwd re his role. This will all have been valuable experience. I've seen plenty of guys saying he should be a Dalton esque manager and let a young stud do the steering, but I think that would be a big misappropriation of ability.

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4 minutes ago, 1eyedkiwi said:

Agree.  I assume Ben has been involved in the design of both BAR and Rita in some form.  If so then questions have to be asked or at least he has to be taken out of the design process.  I wonder how much Burling had to do with the design of the 2017 boat...

It's not just that.

Ben is the most successful olympic sailor of all time afaik and that gives him an aura that could be difficult for many to contradict.

So you might end up in decisions going relatively unchallenged for no other reason than who it is making them.

 

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2 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

It was a good run, but UK knew they were handicapped with the boat design.  They had some good ideas, but it looks like they were never really able to test enough to gain confidence in them.  They threw out some of the ideas from B1 (some that NZ adopted and refined) and tried to adopt ideas from the other teams B1's.  That is just an example of how difficult it is to optimize the design space without getting enough real world data to validate it.  LR has just kept refining their design by picking up minor things from each of the other teams.  

The rules in this AC were specifically written to prevent the teams from getting really world validation data (limits on foils, sails, hull changes, one boat, etc..) so that the original design teams had a substantial advantage.  Now we have much more real world data on how this class of boat sails.  Things like running foil tips out of the water, reducing sail area, jibe and tack maneuvers, flight stability, foil and rudder balances, etc..    

It actually was amazing how close these varying designs were in speed.  We first started with the thought that the boats will just keep it in a straight line and try not to make mistakes.  Now we find they have learned to lose less ground in a maneuver than anyone thought possible (I think they said as little as 5 meters).  It boils down to how the boat is tuned, how it is adjusted to optimize each portion of a maneuver.   

The next cycle of this design will bring the boats even closer together.   I think that Ben and crew did a good job with the limitations that were placed upon them.   Ben is an icon in the sport, everyone wants to take potshots at him.  He handled this whole ordeal with class.

Some good points there mate, do we know what (if any) visible modifications were made to Rita in the intervening time they had? 

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2 minutes ago, 1eyedkiwi said:

Agree.  I assume Ben has been involved in the design of both BAR and Rita in some form.  If so then questions have to be asked or at least he has to be taken out of the design process.  I wonder how much Burling had to do with the design of the 2017 boat...

End of the day the sailors have to be involved in feedabck on the performance of the boat, like an F1 driver and race engineer. Some drivers are probably better at this i.e. Niki Lauda, some drivers are just good at adapting to what is put under them and need a race eng that can coax the info out. I think its the same with sailing.

Burling is a qualified (civil) engineer I think which more than entitles him to knowing whats under the hood and having input. Goodison has an eng degree also. 

That said, I think that a suitably motivated non engineer with common sense and a great "rump" i.e. "feel" who has also read enough of the right books, is far more valuable than any old sailor with a good eng degree.

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7 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

If conditions in this PC Final series had been more uprange (and if you look at late last week and early this week, they could very easily have been) then it’s entirely possible that none of the Ben-bashing would be getting posted.
 

Overall, Ineos were IMO a very good campaign. 

Yes, they were much better than in Bermuda but Ben needs to own much of this as Barker and Dalton did post San Francisco.

In fairness to Dalton he did seem to own it, but Barker not so much.

Being a great sailor doesn't mean you will be a great leader, especially when you are used to single handers like Ben is.

An aura like Ben's could easily prevent good ideas from bubbling to the surface or indeed bad ideas being quashed, depending on whose they are.

 

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Ineos demonstrated strengths:

  • Massive improvement between December and January. Going from losing every race in ACWS to winning every race in Round Robin.
  • Tactics on the Course. Team communication and Dynamics

Where Ineos can improve

  • Boat design needs better gears in down wind conditions, especially height.
  • Boat design and team technique for tacks .

They will ask themselves why they hit the ground in December with such poor boat speed especially in light air, which they improved but never entirely shed.

Ben too many roles?   He hired Grant Simmer as CEO and Grant previously has been head of design for various AC camoaigns.. So Grant can talk to the engineers etc

Ben has 2 roles. Helm. We all understand that role The second is Team Principal. The role of team principal can be ring fenced if Ben hires a great CEO.Team Principal can handle the important sponsorship relationship and critical sailing talent hiring.  CEO should be able to do everything else. Ben still has the sailing chops and I think it is much too early to park his talent in a management office.

I think Ineos will be back and one day they will lift the cup. Just not in 2021.

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50 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Why bother? They are gen 1 boats after all.

EVERY team will be looking at their gen 2 boats and already have a laundry list of shit they would do differently next time.

So, they will be starting with gen 2.5 boat designs whilst the rest will be starting with gen 1.5 (accounting for the peek new syndicates will have had at the current gen 2 boats).

So new teAms can get sailing far quicker and cheaper than designing from scratch. 
Learn the ropes on a bought one then build your own. 

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29 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Yes, they were much better than in Bermuda but Ben needs to own much of this as Barker and Dalton did post San Francisco.

In fairness to Dalton he did seem to own it, but Barker not so much.

Being a great sailor doesn't mean you will be a great leader, especially when you are used to single handers like Ben is.

An aura like Ben's could easily prevent good ideas from bubbling to the surface or indeed bad ideas being quashed, depending on whose they are.

 

Some miracle has occurred, because I find myself 100% agreeing with you on this :D.  Ben has a lot of experience now in how AC teams are run, that is worth a lot.  He could step back, get off the boat, and be the person to put the jigsaw together to get others to thrive

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Its not complicated. A successful AC needs three ingredients.

1. The fast boat

2. Talented sailing team coached to get the best out of #1

3. Great logistics to support #1 and #2.

Ben should be in charge of #2 and find great people to achieve #1 and #3.

 

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59 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Sailing a slower boat doesn't make anybody appear very smart. Not even Ben and Giles. Give them equal terms and everything changes. But it's true that maybe he weared too many hats and couldn't be 100% focused.

We have and will again see what superior crew work does in the SailGP.  These guys will go at it in equal boats.  Better boat tuning, techniques and tactics will show through.

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1 hour ago, mad said:

How much will they de-tune them by before selling them on?  large component parts only?

I think you just remove some of the pre-sets and dumb up the control systems.  That would be enough to slow down an inexperience crew.

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1 minute ago, EYESAILOR said:

Its not complicated. A successful AC needs three ingredients.

1. The fast boat

2. Talented sailing team coached to get the best out of #1

3. Great logistics to support #1 and #2.

Ben should be in charge of #2 and find great people to achieve #1 and #3.

  

This will give you a good team, it will not win.

A winning team is about the interplay between the boat, the engineers and the sailors and how decisions are made.  Winning the AC is not a design competition.  It's a decision making competition.  

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1 minute ago, aucklander said:

This will give you a good team, it will not win.

A winning team is about the interplay between the boat, the engineers and the sailors and how decisions are made.  Winning the AC is not a design competition.  It's a decision making competition.  

The interplay is captured under the three headings.

Great design and manufacturing decisions based on information from sailors and data create a fast boat.

Sailing decisions are better informed with great briefings from the engineers.

Objective data is also important to overcome human bias.

Logistics ensure the interplay.

But I understand your point.......the 4th ingredient is probably

#4 Great and inspiring leadership so that everyone does their best work.

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44 minutes ago, Daniel Holman said:

I think that during the round robins where the small boatspeed deficit was less relevant than shifty puffy course , they showed their class in racing.

Remember BA has focussed his (large) ambitions on the AC for a very long time - I think he has been in and out since the days of One America, getting feet in doors and experience in between Finn sailing at Olympics, doing time with TNZ and then famously with Oracle. He started the British AC team basically with his name hanging over the door and to some extent gambling his legacy as most successful olympic guy in last 50y since Elvstrom, so I expect that he would be reticent to "just" be the helmsman. As a ruthless totalitarian individual, letting other  invariably less capable, driven or motivated individuals (i.e. by proxy anyone other individual) take responsibility for certain aspects is probably tough. That said I think that from what he says in interviews etc, he is pragmatic and understands that whilst he is one of the GOAT, he is not an engineer / designer, but can probably articulate feedback to those guys of very high quality. Whilst perhaps not a natural leader in the manner of say Iain Percy, and knowing how intense he can be and how that is often a benefit in s/h dinghy sailing, I thought he aquitted himself very well in the media, press conferences, on comms towards his team etc. Either that or he has been PR trained half to death, but I doubt it.

If his designers / engineers had put a 2% quicker boat under him (or they'd unlocked > 2% more of its potential a la Oracle 2013) then his position through this thing would have been radically different and everyone would have said that he had nailed the sailing / MGMT balance.

I'm sure they'll be back, Jim Ratcliffe seemed to be loving it. BA didn't win all those gongs without being able to withstand pressure and scrutiny that would cripple most normal people. Once he has had some time off to shake off the haunted weight of the world on shoulders thing, it'll be interesting to see how they move fwd re his role. This will all have been valuable experience. I've seen plenty of guys saying he should be a Dalton esque manager and let a young stud do the steering, but I think that would be a big misappropriation of ability.

I think Ben had some input into the design, but you could see that they did not have enough confidence in their simulator predictions.  The first boat have some very unique design feature, but they had equipment and covid problems that did not allow them to validate or tune it properly.  They sailed it enough to know they were slow and off the pace.  So with B2 they threw the ball into a completely different part of the design space.  You can tell that the designers were given a lot of freedom, Ben even joked about how they hoped it was fast.  They were going on the predictions from the simulator, which they felt failed them to some extent already with B1.  So without a real clear direction, they found themselves in what appeared to be a slow boat in NZ.  They learned how to tune it better and did a great job of reading the wind to take the lead over the challengers.  But they always seem a step behind and were never able to catch up.  Of course, this is just my take on the situation.

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4 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

I think Ben had some input into the design, but you could see that they did not have enough confidence in their simulator predictions.  The first boat have some very unique design feature, but they had equipment and covid problems that did not allow them to validate or tune it properly.  They sailed it enough to know they were slow and off the pace.  So with B2 they threw the ball into a completely different part of the design space.  You can tell that the designers were given a lot of freedom, Ben even joked about how they hoped it was fast.  They were going on the predictions from the simulator, which they felt failed them to some extent already with B1.  So without a real clear direction, they found themselves in what appeared to be a slow boat in NZ.  They learned how to tune it better and did a great job of reading the wind to take the lead over the challengers.  But they always seem a step behind and were never able to catch up.  Of course, this is just my take on the situation.

That sounds fair - I can't say I was following this mcuh until Xmas. As an Engineer, you have to be very careful with any sort of analysis or simulator prediction, even in this day and age. Or maybe prticularly in this day and age given its prevalence due to availability of computing power. I guess it sounds that in the absence of much "real" validation data, he had to just go with the sims stuff - his discomfort with this probably improves his judgement to my mind.

I think that you have to give designers free reign else they will come up with stuff that is derivative. But equally its good to be able to hold them to account with evidence from real world testing.

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