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There have been quite a few suggestions on this thread and elsewhere that Ben A should take himself off the boat and focus on his management role as principal.

I have just watched again, the first round of SailGP held in Sydney last year in February before Covid exploded.

You can only conclude that Ben should stay on the boat and Ratcliffe should find someone else to manage.

Ben's boat speed on a foiling one design was compelling. He was dominant in practice.  He then went onto win four races out of four in the round robin. They had already qualified for the final so they kept clear of the melle for the start of the fifth race and started a solid 3-5 minutes after everyone else, and methodically sailed through the fleet to finish 4th.  In the match race final, it was won from the start largely by an Australian Error so the match itself was somewhat of an anticlimax. (I hope they make it best of 3 this season) but Ben sailed such a tactical race, Tom was never going to get back.

 It is worth watching, Ben clearly has a great "feel" for a foiling boat.  On a common platform, he was the best foiler in a highly skilled field (which gets even tougher this year)  . I am not suggesting that neither Tom or Nathan can beat Ben . Both are more than capable capable of winning rounds at the Sail GP circuit.....but I am sure that Ben is up there with the high altitude of the best foiling sailors in the world. Putting anyone lesser on Ineos AC helm would be a mistake.

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shes legit ... foil arm looks to be in the front end of the box ... opposite of all other teams ... what are we going to read into that?

ETNZ are probably favorites .....but win or lose....Team New Zealand have firmly established themselves as the all time great AC nation in the modern era.   From the time they first emerged, they have

And so it begins. Image credit and copyright Allesandro Spiga  

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Ben has no issues with large foiling boats. And I think he would be second to none in terms of wrenching the last drops of speed from any platform given to him. 

I would imagine ben being pretty technical too. But, possibly not 'inventive'. In fact, it's true of most of our sailing talent, that is so focused to one design. The afterguard are certainly some of the best racers we have to offer, and Bleddyn offers very good engineering expertise... but, I'm not sure they (or leigh for that matter) have spent the same time hacking boats in the like Ashby, Blair and Pete have.

Not sure who they will bring in as CEO, but I'd keep Ainsle on the helm, I'd like Percy as a manager, maybe with Adam May as a technical liaison between sailing team and design to better run through concepts. Who knows, but I think it will be an interesting area over the next year. 

The grinders had a clear culture shift and produced something innovative, but also saw the concept over the line from concept to reality. The afterguard seemed to work through several concepts, but were slow narrowing down on the winning systems.

I believe they could make big strides here with a slight culture change whilst keeping the personnel the same. Half the crew are young enough to grow up with Ben as their idol and the older guys will have spent a career in his shadow.  But Ben needs to be aware that whilst this respect is well earnt, and must feel fantastic, it could negatively affect crew willingness to explore 'stupid ideas' or even state the obvious in front of the UK sailing messiah. Ben is a very dominant character and their communication during races is very structured. Again, we don't know, but if that's how chat is in training, then it wouldn't be the best atmosphere for creativity. 

The recent media piece on getting to know 'Guv' was interesting in this regard. I think several of the crew expressed more driven he was, and that rubs off on the rest of the team. But is that out of fear of letting him down, or getting out of step, or looking silly in front of the 'guv'... or do they feel inspired to work towards a common goal, but with the freedom and encouragement to do so in a way that they best can themselves? It's a fine line between the two.

They could also just get their sailors in moths and A-class cats. Get them hands on with projects. Encourage this ethos in their spare time. 

Of course, they could 'buy in' these characters, and people like goody would certainly fit the bill...  but I still think a little shift in mindset is needed. 

Yet, with the class remaining the same the first time, maybe they don't need the blue sky thinking, and we're in to the marginal technicalities and relentless obsession territory where Ben should excel? 

It would make a sweet Netflix sports documentary though! 

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25 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

 

 

It would make a sweet Netflix sports documentary though! 

Indeed.

However the impression I get is that Sir Ben and Lady Ainslie manage their media presence very carefully. The Netflix documentaries like to capture those unguarded moments.

 

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28 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Ben has no issues with large foiling boats. And I think he would be second to none in terms of wrenching the last drops of speed from any platform given to him. 

I would imagine ben being pretty technical too. But, possibly not 'inventive'. In fact, it's true of most of our sailing talent, that is so focused to one design. The afterguard are certainly some of the best racers we have to offer, and Bleddyn offers very good engineering expertise... but, I'm not sure they (or leigh for that matter) have spent the same time hacking boats in the like Ashby, Blair and Pete have.

Not sure who they will bring in as CEO, but I'd keep Ainsle on the helm, I'd like Percy as a manager, maybe with Adam May as a technical liaison between sailing team and design to better run through concepts. Who knows, but I think it will be an interesting area over the next year. 

 

I cannot speak to Ben's technical or inventive ability.

However I observe that the UK has a culture of inventive application to development classes. You all sail many more development classes than we do in the US and you have many more small boat designers and boat builders than the US.  Humble classes like the National 12 and Merlin Rocket , international moth (the first International moth I ever saw was at an English reservoir) and international 14 have produced some legendary designers which in turn created a legacy and mentors for younger designers and sailors .  Amongst all this ...and I wouldnt start to know the names, I have got to believe that  UK has no shortage of talent to bolster the inventive side. The Brits seem to like sailing small fast boats and seem to like tinkering. Ian Percy by reputation would make a good manager and of course currently manages a technical project.

 

 

 

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Ben: Optimist, Laser, Finn 

Giles: Topper, Laser, Finn

Bleddyn: Topper, 29er, Laser, 49er

Leigh: Oppy, Laser, Hobie, Tornado

Luke Parkinson: Oppy, Mirror, 29er, 49er

So... all pretty narrow one designs, even the tornado by the time leigh was sailing them. Leigh and Luke have both done bit of moth sailing, leigh has definitely done a worlds. Bleddyn owned a moth but not sure he ever did events or much competitive sailing in one. Giles and Ben have never sailed a development class in a meaningful way. 

The UK has a great history of development classes, however, from about 1998 the focus is very much SMOD / strict one design. The few that don't drop out of the sport generally end up in RS200s.

The moths have seen massive growth, but it took a little while longer to the top talent to get involved and to be frank the chaps pushing things in the Moth were older(with exception of Paton and Rashley) and based around Stokes Bay and Hayling pre-2014. Really very good sailors... but, not at the career highs as the antipodeans committing similar time to moth around the same time.
Now you've got a generally younger, and IMO better potential coming out of Portland. People in their prime, also committing efforts to serious development class campaigns in the same way Nathan, Goobs, Burling, Tuke, Slingsby and Ashby with the A-Class have done. 

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20 hours ago, IPLore said:

There have been quite a few suggestions on this thread and elsewhere that Ben A should take himself off the boat and focus on his management role as principal.

I have just watched again, the first round of SailGP held in Sydney last year in February before Covid exploded.

You can only conclude that Ben should stay on the boat and Ratcliffe should find someone else to manage.

Ben's boat speed on a foiling one design was compelling. He was dominant in practice.  He then went onto win four races out of four in the round robin. They had already qualified for the final so they kept clear of the melle for the start of the fifth race and started a solid 3-5 minutes after everyone else, and methodically sailed through the fleet to finish 4th.  In the match race final, it was won from the start largely by an Australian Error so the match itself was somewhat of an anticlimax. (I hope they make it best of 3 this season) but Ben sailed such a tactical race, Tom was never going to get back.

 It is worth watching, Ben clearly has a great "feel" for a foiling boat.  On a common platform, he was the best foiler in a highly skilled field (which gets even tougher this year)  . I am not suggesting that neither Tom or Nathan can beat Ben . Both are more than capable capable of winning rounds at the Sail GP circuit.....but I am sure that Ben is up there with the high altitude of the best foiling sailors in the world. Putting anyone lesser on Ineos AC helm would be a mistake.

Ben was able to sail the Sydney SailGP Event with Goobs (Iain Jensen) and Parko (Luke Parkinson). You might consider those two people when it comes to his success. Will he be able to sail with those two for the upcoming Season 2? Those are two Australians. It looks like the Philosophy of Russell Coutts is that you are only allowed to have one Foreign Sailor joining the Team.

Nick Hutton joined Australias SailGP Team.

Leigh McMillan joined the French SailGP Team.

Tom Johnson who hails from Perth joined the Danish SailGP Team.

The lone Team who apparently will have a 100 % National Crew in SailGP's Season 2 are the Kiwis with Pete Burling, Blair Tuke, Josh Junior, Andy Maloney, Marcus Hansen, Louis Sinclair, Erica Dawson and Liv Mackey.

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40 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Ben was able to sail the Sydney SailGP Event with Goobs (Iain Jensen) and Parko (Luke Parkinson). You might consider those two people when it comes to his success. Will he be able to sail with those two for the upcoming Season 2?

 

Yes he is sailing with Goobs and Parko again in season 2.

They are a strong team.   The All_NZ team is very strong as well.

 

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7 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Yes he is sailing with Goobs and Parko again in season 2.

They are a strong team.   The All_NZ team is very strong as well.

 

How do you know that? Are u sure? Do you have any Inside Track on that? The only Rumor I have is that Annabel Vose, who was the Tactician when Land Rover BAR Academy won the Red Bull Youth America's Cup in Bermuda 2017 could be one of the two Women on the British SailGP Team for Season 2. Would make sense!

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On 4/8/2021 at 11:17 AM, Mozzy Sails said:

Ben: Optimist, Laser, Finn 

Giles: Topper, Laser, Finn

Bleddyn: Topper, 29er, Laser, 49er

Leigh: Oppy, Laser, Hobie, Tornado

Luke Parkinson: Oppy, Mirror, 29er, 49er

So... all pretty narrow one designs, even the tornado by the time leigh was sailing them. Leigh and Luke have both done bit of moth sailing, leigh has definitely done a worlds. Bleddyn owned a moth but not sure he ever did events or much competitive sailing in one. Giles and Ben have never sailed a development class in a meaningful way. 

The UK has a great history of development classes, however, from about 1998 the focus is very much SMOD / strict one design. The few that don't drop out of the sport generally end up in RS200s.

The moths have seen massive growth, but it took a little while longer to the top talent to get involved and to be frank the chaps pushing things in the Moth were older(with exception of Paton and Rashley) and based around Stokes Bay and Hayling pre-2014. Really very good sailors... but, not at the career highs as the antipodeans committing similar time to moth around the same time.
Now you've got a generally younger, and IMO better potential coming out of Portland. People in their prime, also committing efforts to serious development class campaigns in the same way Nathan, Goobs, Burling, Tuke, Slingsby and Ashby with the A-Class have done. 

Is there anyone in the uk who can helm an AC75 at the same level of Ben ?

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8 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Are you going off this?   https://sailgp.com/teams/great-britain/ 

You can scratch that! It is outdated. BA is only allowed to have one "Foreign Sailor" on the British SailGP Team. That seems to be the Rule Russell Coutts has implemented.

Australia has Nick Hutton (Grinder/United Kingdom)

Denmark has Tom Johnson (Wing Trimmer/Australia)

France has Leigh McMillan (Wing Trimmer)

United States has Paul Campbell-James (Wing Trimmer/United Kingdom)

Spain has Phil Robertson (Helmsman/New Zealand)

Japan has Nathan Outerridge (CEO, Skipper & Helmsman/Australia)

New Zealand is Sailing with an all Kiwi Team.

I think the Brits can take either Iain Jensen or Luke Parkinson but not both I think.

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53 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Is there anyone in the uk who can helm an AC75 at the same level of Ben ?

Chris Draper has helmed an AC72, so he'd probably be closest, followed by Dylan Fletcher I guess who helmed the GBR F50.

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I've been told same lineup from Sydney. 

I think the nationality rule is sliding a little. If you want sponsors for all teams I think this is the way forward. Also think it's good for the sailors to have more of a transfer market. 

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4 hours ago, mako23 said:

Is there anyone in the uk who can helm an AC75 at the same level of Ben ?

Well, hard to tell, as no one else has had a go. But there are plenty who I think have the potential to be on the same level. Whether that's better or not you could only know by giving them the stick and trying them out... but:

Giles Scott, Leigh McMillan, Goobs within the team. Then Goody, Dylan Fletcher, Ben Saxton, James Peters. 

But my point is with the those sailor backgrounds, is that they're all good enough, but they're experience as a group is one design. Theres no one on the roster with a really development class outlook. 

A team is about getting the right mix, not just replacing individuals with 'better'. 

Also as I point out, it's not impossible to change that one design outlook in the team without changing personnel.

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4 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Well, hard to tell, as no one else has had a go. But there are plenty who I think have the potential to be on the same level. Whether that's better or not you could only know by giving them the stick and trying them out... but:

Giles Scott, Leigh McMillan, Goobs within the team. Then Goody, Dylan Fletcher, Ben Saxton, James Peters. 

But my point is with the those sailor backgrounds, is that they're all good enough, but they're experience as a group is one design. Theres no one on the roster with a really development class outlook. 

A team is about getting the right mix, not just replacing individuals with 'better'. 

Also as I point out, it's not impossible to change that one design outlook in the team without changing personnel.

Dylan has development class experience, he's a Mothie as well as a 49er sailor, and is the current UK Moth champion.

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48 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Well, hard to tell, as no one else has had a go. But there are plenty who I think have the potential to be on the same level. Whether that's better or not you could only know by giving them the stick and trying them out... but:

Giles Scott, Leigh McMillan, Goobs within the team. Then Goody, Dylan Fletcher, Ben Saxton, James Peters. 

But my point is with the those sailor backgrounds, is that they're all good enough, but they're experience as a group is one design. Theres no one on the roster with a really development class outlook. 

A team is about getting the right mix, not just replacing individuals with 'better'. 

Also as I point out, it's not impossible to change that one design outlook in the team without changing personnel.

 

49 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Well, hard to tell, as no one else has had a go. But there are plenty who I think have the potential to be on the same level. Whether that's better or not you could only know by giving them the stick and trying them out... but:

Giles Scott, Leigh McMillan, Goobs within the team. Then Goody, Dylan Fletcher, Ben Saxton, James Peters. 

But my point is with the those sailor backgrounds, is that they're all good enough, but they're experience as a group is one design. Theres no one on the roster with a really development class outlook. 

A team is about getting the right mix, not just replacing individuals with 'better'. 

Also as I point out, it's not impossible to change that one design outlook in the team without changing personnel.

So there’s no real alternative than Ben Ainslie for an UK AC skipper. Technically I feel he’s a good helmsman . However he’s not a team player, which is essential to get the best out of the boat. It’s Bens way or the highway 

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10 minutes ago, mako23 said:

 

So there’s no real alternative than Ben Ainslie for an UK AC skipper. Technically I feel he’s a good helmsman . However he’s not a team player, which is essential to get the best out of the boat. It’s Bens way or the highway 

I think there is actually a few viable alternatives in Chris Draper, Dylan Fletcher, or even Iain Percy. The problem is, Ben Ainslie is seen as somewhat of a sailing God in the UK, and its almost blasphemy to even think about anyone else holding the wheel. You only need to listen to Shirley Robertson's recent AC commentary in regards to Ben Ainslie. Its like she was in love with the guy! Her voice almost cracked when she finally accepted the INEOS Team UK campaign was over.

Its not that there aren't any alternatives, its that Ben still see's himself as the best sailor in the world. Its his team, and as long as its his team, he calls the shots, and if he wants the helm, he gets the helm. Its that simple.

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Is there any evidence that Ben is not a team player?  I’m not saying he is one way or another I think you are speculating 

I agree that management needs strengthening so that Ben can focus on what he does best which is sailing.  Plus  they have come up short in design for 2 cycles in a row. So something needs to change.

But I don’t think the helm has to change.  
 

I think Ben is among the very best large foiling helms in the world and Ineos can win the cup if it gets the right design. 
 

The evidence to support my thesis that he is extraordinary talent is both the results they achieved in round robin with inferior boat in  AC 36    As well as his success in classes such as GP 50

 

 

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As it seems, for winning the AC you need not only to be the best helmsman in the world, but also the best in driving the development and give the feedback to the design team. Ben is still one of the best helmsman (if not the best) in the world, but I don't know if maybe Burling was better in the other aspect. And being also the boss of the team didn't help him focusing on sailing and development. In Luna Rossa, thanks to Max Sirena, Jimmy and Checco were 100% free to focus on their sailing and developmnet tasks!

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4 hours ago, mako23 said:

 

So there’s no real alternative than Ben Ainslie for an UK AC skipper. Technically I feel he’s a good helmsman . However he’s not a team player, which is essential to get the best out of the boat. It’s Bens way or the highway 

There's plenty of alternatives, I listed them. 

But why swap Ben out if:

a) his helming is up to standard, and

b) he's the mega draw for sponsors to the team?

 

Instead
a) bring some more creative thinkers in to the sailing team

b) give existing sailing team members space to go and be inventive (A-Class, Moth, mini, speed record). 

c) make sure people don't feel stupid being wrong in front of Ben



 

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28 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

There's plenty of alternatives, I listed them. 

But why swap Ben out if:

a) his helming is up to standard, and

b) he's the mega draw for sponsors to the team?

 

Instead
a) bring some more creative thinkers in to the sailing team

b) give existing sailing team members space to go and be inventive (A-Class, Moth, mini, speed record). 

c) make sure people don't feel stupid being wrong in front of Ben



 

Have to agree with this. Well put Mozzy.

Why swap out Ben

(a) His helming is proven after his OD dinghy career. He has been foiling large boats since at least 2013 and the record against his peers is very good.  I include the AC36 CSS round robin as an important indication of ability to wring boat speed from a boat, and the sailgp as evidence of his superiority in an equal platform. If Ineos can provide him with a boat as fast as TNZ or others, then the competition will have their hands full.

(b) He is driven and motivated and mental toughness is on a par with Spitbull. This is not a guy who chokes if he is ahead or gives up if behind.  This is important .

(C) Yup , he is a draw.

Instead

Bring in someone who can manage the team, including coaching Ben so that an environment of open contribution is created.

And give benefit of doubt to Ben that he will be prepared to partcipate and encourage contribution.  He wants a faster platform and best ideas. He just has to find the right manager /coach that facilitates that.

 

I also suspect that Ineos need to get over their love affair with Formula 1. For whatever reason, its not working.

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3 hours ago, strider470 said:

As it seems, for winning the AC you need not only to be the best helmsman in the world, but also the best in driving the development and give the feedback to the design team. Ben is still one of the best helmsman (if not the best) in the world, but I don't know if maybe Burling was better in the other aspect. And being also the boss of the team didn't help him focusing on sailing and development. In Luna Rossa, thanks to Max Sirena, Jimmy and Checco were 100% free to focus on their sailing and developmnet tasks!

Indeed.

But if Ben had too many roles and there is admiration for his helming skills and questions about his team co-ordination skills, it is best to leave him on the helm and find a "Max Sirena" for the team. @Mozzy Sails has suggested Ian Percy. I think that is a good idea. It will be hard for Ben to "let go" because he created the team....but I think with the right trusted person, Ben could lean back and enjoy giving the reins to someone.

 

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8 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I've been told same lineup from Sydney. 

I think the nationality rule is sliding a little. If you want sponsors for all teams I think this is the way forward. Also think it's good for the sailors to have more of a transfer market. 

Any scoop of the two Females on the British Team? My guess is they might be Emily Nagel (who was the Performance Analyst for GBR SailGP Team) and Annabel Vose (who was Tactician on the British Boat for the Red Bull Youth America's Cup in 2017).

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2 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

There's plenty of alternatives, I listed them. 

Actually you listed alternate helms. Not skippers. Not necessarily the same thing.

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4 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Actually you listed alternate helms. Not skippers. Not necessarily the same thing.

@dogwatch I agree, important difference.

If Ineos was to have an off-the-boat OTB skipper, what suggestions would you have (assuming leave Ben on the helm).

 

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

@dogwatch I agree, important difference.

If Ineos was to have an off-the-boat OTB skipper, what suggestions would you have (assuming leave Ben on the helm).

I'd like to see BA as skipper/tactician and a younger helm. Mozzy has discussed candidates for the latter.

 

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1 minute ago, dogwatch said:

I'd like to see BA as skipper/tactician and a younger helm. Mozzy has discussed candidates for the latter.

 

Yes well, we part company there.  I would like to see BA stay as helm and find someone else as skipper/manager.

I think having the manager as tactician (Terry Hutchinson model) is a mistake because its hard to be objective if you are on the boat. I prefer the Russell Coutts/Max Sirena/Grant dalton model.

Ben is a once in a generation helm.

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7 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Yes. But that was the previous generation. 

Lets agree to disagree.   I think he still has it for now.  I think he gets one or maybe 2 more shots.   Post Ben, Im not sure where the next world class talent is going to be coming out of the UK. I suspect it will be a surprise......maybe some foiling kiteboarder from Hayling Island :)

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@EYESAILOR

The notion that Chris Draper would helm an AC75 Boat by @Forourselvesis just pure BOGUS. Draper is even older than Ainslie.

I've rewatched some SailGP Events from 2019 and it was quite obvious that Dylan Fletcher lacks Experience. I don't see any other than Ben helming INEOS TEAM UK Boat for AC37. Maybe Goodison can helm it if he chooses to sail for the Brits instead of the Americans.

I do agree though replacing Grant Simmer with Iain Percy would be a good Deal. Ben & Iain are good mates and Ben needs someone he can trust assuming Simmer gets dropped.

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5 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@EYESAILOR

The notion that Chris Draper would helm an AC75 Boat by @Forourselvesis just pure BOGUS. Draper is even older than Ainslie. Agreed/

I've rewatched some SailGP Events from 2019 and it was quite obvious that Dylan Fletcher lacks Experience. Dylan is very talented but he is not as talented even with the age advantage as Ben. Ben was much faster in the GP50 than Dylan.

I don't see any other than Ben helming INEOS TEAM UK Boat for AC37. Maybe Goodison can helm it if he chooses to sail for the Brits instead of the Americans.When ever Ben and Goody have raced in the same classes, Ben has achieved better results.

However I think Goody is one of the best sailors on the AC circuit.  I understand that he is very methodical and analytical. Ben and Peter B are also analytical but they both also have that indefinable "something" or instinct that wins a race. Watching PB's olympic races and BA's olympic races, it is uncanny how they oull a rabbit out of the hat.

I do agree though replacing Grant Simmer with Iain Percy would be a good Deal. Ben & Iain are good mates and Ben needs someone he can trust assuming Simmer gets dropped. @Mozzy Sails idea not mine....but I agree with it.  I doubt that Jim R could spare the time but I suspect he could have a good impact on team management dynamics.

 

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@EYESAILOR

To be perfectly honest with you mate it wasn't the Sailors why ITUK lost AC36. The Brits & the Kiwis had the two best Sailing Teams but the New Zealanders did have a GAZILLON better Design Team and that's why they won in the end.

Ben/Giles absolutely OWNED Bruni/Spithill in the Round Robins with their tactical genius because knew they had a boat they could compete with.

Somebody needs to pull some strings together for AC37 when it comes to their Design Team. IMO they had too many voices voicing too many different opinions.

Nick Holroyd got his shot, first with the Japanese in 2017 and now with the Brits and he botched up both. They created a Dog and had to pull help from the Merc Guys together to help them out after the Christmas Event.

Contrary to what many say INEOS doesn't need to dump Merc., in fact Merc & INEOS need to work even closer together for AC37. Ratcliffe or whomever the new CEO will be has to find a similar Design Coordinator like Dan Bernasconi is for the Kiwis. Once that happes they can win this thing.

My Dream Afterguard for ITUK for AC37 would be: Ben/Giles/Goodi. Let these 3 guys work together and you have your Dream Team.

I watched some older AC34 Footage and it was obvious once Ben found his Spot as Tactician for OTUSA the combination of Spithill/Ainslie/Slingsby was totally deadly.

But from the moment the Americans split up that "Dream Combo" I knew they would lose AC35. Not only didn't OTUSA defend it, they didn't even win a single ACWS Event.

Portsmouth 2015: Land Rover BAR

Gothenburg 2015: Emirates Team New Zealand

Bermuda 2015: Artemis Racing

Oman 2016: Land Rover BAR

New York 2016: Emirates Team New Zealand

Chicago 2016: Artemis Racing

Portsmouth 2016: Land Rover BAR

Toulon 2016: Artemis Racing

Fukuoka 2016: Land Rover BAR

Overall Winner ACWS 2015/16: Land Rover BAR

I mean, that is saying something, doesn't it mate?

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BA is good but as with all the AC helms he is getting old for the job so in 3 or 4 years he will not be better but worse.

New talent can be developed in a 4 year cycle with BA's help but will he?? 

The fact that there is no real contender within the team is a bad sign.

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8 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

But why swap Ben out if:

a) his helming is up to standard, and

b) he's the mega draw for sponsors to the team?

 



 

Why swap Ben out

He keeps losing and he’s NOT at the standard to win the cup

LR killed him in the starts during the Prada Cup final.....in that final he chocked. He’s simply not up to the job. 

Also being a mega draw is irrelevant, Ineos is all the sponsorship needed

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9 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Why swap Ben out

He keeps losing and he’s NOT at the standard to win the cup

LR killed him in the starts during the Prada Cup final.....in that final he chocked. He’s simply not up to the job. 

Also being a mega draw is irrelevant, Ineos is all the sponsorship needed

Ben did not choke during the Prada Cup Final. He had a significantly slower Boat in lighter airs so he had to try something in the Starts.

If you want to blame somebody at INEOS blame Grant Simmer or Nick Holroyd and his Design Team who created that "Dog" they had to sail especially in the lower wind range. Ben/Giles owned LR in the Round Robins with their tactical display.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@EYESAILOR

To be perfectly honest with you mate it wasn't the Sailors why ITUK lost AC36. The Brits & the Kiwis had the two best Sailing Teams but the New Zealanders did have a GAZILLON better Design Team and that's why they won in the end. Yes Agreed

Ben/Giles absolutely OWNED Bruni/Spithill in the Round Robins with their tactical genius because knew they had a boat they could compete with.  Agreed. Brilliant tactics and sailing to win every race with a boat that at best was level.

Somebody needs to pull some strings together for AC37 when it comes to their Design Team. IMO they had too many voices voicing too many different opinions. We dont really know why the design was behind others. But it is something they need to work on

Nick Holroyd got his shot, first with the Japanese in 2017 and now with the Brits and he botched up both. They created a Dog and had to pull help from the Merc Guys together to help them out after the Christmas Event.

Contrary to what many say INEOS doesn't need to dump Merc., in fact Merc & INEOS need to work even closer together for AC37. Ratcliffe or whomever the new CEO will be has to find a similar Design Coordinator like Dan Bernasconi is for the Kiwis. Once that happes they can win this thing.

My Dream Afterguard for ITUK for AC37 would be: Ben/Giles/Goodi. Let these 3 guys work together and you have your Dream Team.  Goodi will contribute to any team he is part of.  I think there would be a certain amount of overlap with Giles and too many cooks/tacticians can spoil the broth.  Ben and Giles clearly "click" as helm/tactician combo.  Goodi could possibly be a contender for Flight controller replacing Leigh and/or Parko + providing extra pair of eyes for Giles.  I think Giles would listen to Goodi better than TH did. If that was going to be a possibility, we might have seen Goodi try out during the Sail GP. He is noticeably absent. The problem with including Goodi to replace some of the younger team members is that he raises the average age of the team even more. Goodi is 43/44 years (same age as Ben).  Talented guy but I think some would hesitate before adding a 44 year old flight controller alongside the 44 year old helm (that some mistakenly seem to think is past his prime)

I watched some older AC34 Footage and it was obvious once Ben found his Spot as Tactician for OTUSA the combination of Spithill/Ainslie/Slingsby was totally deadly. Very very true.  I thought the chat between Sling and Ben was great. Basicaly they told Spit where to put the boat and at one stage Ben was telling spit which mode to drive "bow down a bit here Jimmy". 

But from the moment the Americans split up that "Dream Combo" I knew they would lose AC35. Not only didn't OTUSA defend it, they didn't even win a single ACWS Event.

Portsmouth 2015: Land Rover BAR

Gothenburg 2015: Emirates Team New Zealand

Bermuda 2015: Artemis Racing

Oman 2016: Land Rover BAR

New York 2016: Emirates Team New Zealand

Chicago 2016: Artemis Racing

Portsmouth 2016: Land Rover BAR

Toulon 2016: Artemis Racing

Fukuoka 2016: Land Rover BAR

Overall Winner ACWS 2015/16: Land Rover BAR

I mean, that is saying something, doesn't it mate?

 

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5 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Ben did not choke during the Prada Cup Final. He had a significantly slower Boat in lighter airs so he had to try something in the Starts.

If you want to blame somebody at INEOS blame Grant Simmer or Nick Holroyd and his Design Team who created that "Dog" they had to sail especially in the lower wind range. Ben/Giles owned LR in the Round Robins with their tactical display.

Being a slower boat doesn’t matter in the start, and in the starts Ben was made to look very poor compared to Spithill. Also their boat wasn’t a dog and did win a race when Ben did win the start. 
I accept LR was a better boat, but it’s bit of a stretch to call the boat a dog.  Remember it did win races against LR and AM.  A dog wins very few races and that’s not the case win the Ineos boat. However if you raced Ineos against ETNZ they would of been slaughtered 7 zip

 

If Ben was racing ETNZ or LR in identical AC75 boats he would lose, due to his poor record in the starting box 

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The point is BA will be slower in 3 years and PB will be faster.

In 12 years both will be slower than the young guns, organize the succession early or the team will die.

The original name was BAR an ego driven name destined to die.

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19 minutes ago, coercivity said:

The point is BA will be slower in 3 years and PB will be faster.

In 12 years both will be slower than the young guns, organize the succession early or the team will die.

The original name was BAR an ego driven name destined to die.

I think PB will have one or two more cups in him and then he will decline. No one can stay at the top forever and the pressure will eventually get to him. ETNZ should start with a PB apprentice so that if PB dropped dead or left to go to another syndicate, they won’t be left with no alternatives. The Aussies for example have a couple of good skippers. 
 

Ben on the other hand is, is past his best. He’s 43 now and that’s not young in this game.  His reactions are too slow and yes he didn’t crash his boat much, he would have real problem with a boat like ETNZ had were lightning reactions are required. The Ineos boat was docile in comparison 

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6 hours ago, mako23 said:

Being a slower boat doesn’t matter in the start, and in the starts Ben was made to look very poor compared to Spithill. Also their boat wasn’t a dog and did win a race when Ben did win the start. 
I accept LR was a better boat, but it’s bit of a stretch to call the boat a dog.  Remember it did win races against LR and AM.  A dog wins very few races and that’s not the case win the Ineos boat. However if you raced Ineos against ETNZ they would of been slaughtered 7 zip

 

If Ben was racing ETNZ or LR in identical AC75 boats he would lose, due to his poor record in the starting box 

In 11 races in the Prada Cup , Ineos vs LR : 

BA won 6 starts.  Of those 6, they "owned" two.  

JS won 4 starts (of these owned 2) one of those was a light air start where Ineos simply could not get on foils and LR was foiling. 

1 start was a draw because both boats were OCS. Jimmy was in a dominant position but made an error by being ocs. 

 The evidence does not support Ben being inferior in the starts. 

RR1 Race 2 Ben owned the start , Took LR low in the box, tacked to port and led by over a boat length at start  BA

RR 2 Race 2 Jimmy started to leeward, bow out by a fraction  and Ineos tacked away.  JS

RR 3 Race  3  Ben got on Jimmy from dive down to stern pressured him to the pin, then started bow out to windward and going faster.  BA  (In this race I thought LR was clearly the faster boat but BA/GS won thru tactics.)

Final race 1 Light air . Boats did not engage. Prada was on foils. Ineos could not get on foils in the pre start. Boat design highlighted JS

Race 2 Ben to leeward bow out. Jimmy forced to tack.  BA

Race 3  Boat handling error by Ineos while chasing LR from astern, Jimmy owns start . JS

Race 4 Jimmy confidently places boat going fast at favored end . Ineos all over the place and have to start on port JS

Race 5 Both boats OCS. Messy call by umpires.  IMO, Jimmy was winning the pre start but blew it by getting OCS. . Like Race 4, Ineos were starting to look muddled and lacking confidence in the prestart. Draw since both were OCS. 

Race 6 More confident positioning by Ben compared to 2 prior races. Hit the line with speed  down the line from Jimmy, marginally bow out and Jimmy eventually tacks away. BA

Race 7 Ben owned start better time and distance. Started 1/2- 1 BL bow out on LR   BA

Race 8 Jimmy looked like he owned it, BA was early and had to tack to cross JS. But BA pulled a start on port out of the hat and JS was ocs and had to take a penalty   BA 

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5 hours ago, IPLore said:

In 11 races in the Prada Cup , Ineos vs LR : 

BA won 6 starts.  Of those 6, they "owned" two.  

JS won 4 starts (of these owned 2) one of those was a light air start where Ineos simply could not get on foils and LR was foiling. 

1 start was a draw because both boats were OCS. Jimmy was in a dominant position but made an error by being ocs. 

 The evidence does not support Ben being inferior in the starts. 

RR1 Race 2 Ben owned the start , Took LR low in the box, tacked to port and led by over a boat length at start  BA

RR 2 Race 2 Jimmy started to leeward, bow out by a fraction  and Ineos tacked away.  JS

RR 3 Race  3  Ben got on Jimmy from dive down to stern pressured him to the pin, then started bow out to windward and going faster.  BA  (In this race I thought LR was clearly the faster boat but BA/GS won thru tactics.)

Final race 1 Light air . Boats did not engage. Prada was on foils. Ineos could not get on foils in the pre start. Boat design highlighted JS

Race 2 Ben to leeward bow out. Jimmy forced to tack.  BA

Race 3  Boat handling error by Ineos while chasing LR from astern, Jimmy owns start . JS

Race 4 Jimmy confidently places boat going fast at favored end . Ineos all over the place and have to start on port JS

Race 5 Both boats OCS. Messy call by umpires.  IMO, Jimmy was winning the pre start but blew it by getting OCS. . Like Race 4, Ineos were starting to look muddled and lacking confidence in the prestart. Draw since both were OCS. 

Race 6 More confident positioning by Ben compared to 2 prior races. Hit the line with speed  down the line from Jimmy, marginally bow out and Jimmy eventually tacks away. BA

Race 7 Ben owned start better time and distance. Started 1/2- 1 BL bow out on LR   BA

Race 8 Jimmy looked like he owned it, BA was early and had to tack to cross JS. But BA pulled a start on port out of the hat and JS was ocs and had to take a penalty   BA 

Thank You! INEOS would have been passed in the Prada Cup Final Races most of the time anyways even if Ben won all the starts because in sub 12 Knots the British Boat was literally going knots slower than the Italian Boat.

Don't engage into @mako23too much because you're basically talking to a "Wall" with all his ramblings about Ben!

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34 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Thank You! INEOS would have been passed in the Prada Cup Final Races most of the time anyways even if Ben won all the starts because in sub 12 Knots the British Boat was literally going knots slower than the Italian Boat.

Don't engage into @mako23too much because you're basically talking to a "Wall" with all his ramblings about Ben!

Talking shite  again and failing to understand speed vs vmg 

INEOS were as fast but had lower VMG that was the difference

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43 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Talking shite  again and failing to understand speed vs vmg 

INEOS were as fast but had lower VMG that was the difference

Nonsense! INEOS was quite unstable in the lower wind range. You almost had to hold your breath every time hoping the Boat doesn't fall of it's Foils!

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28 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Nonsense! INEOS was quite unstable in the lower wind range. You almost had to hold your breath every time hoping the Boat doesn't fall of it's Foils!

ACWS but not during Prada, also nothing to do with speed. 
 

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8 hours ago, IPLore said:

In 11 races in the Prada Cup , Ineos vs LR : 

BA won 6 starts.  Of those 6, they "owned" two.  

JS won 4 starts (of these owned 2) one of those was a light air start where Ineos simply could not get on foils and LR was foiling. 

1 start was a draw because both boats were OCS. Jimmy was in a dominant position but made an error by being ocs. 

 The evidence does not support Ben being inferior in the starts. 

RR1 Race 2 Ben owned the start , Took LR low in the box, tacked to port and led by over a boat length at start  BA

RR 2 Race 2 Jimmy started to leeward, bow out by a fraction  and Ineos tacked away.  JS

RR 3 Race  3  Ben got on Jimmy from dive down to stern pressured him to the pin, then started bow out to windward and going faster.  BA  (In this race I thought LR was clearly the faster boat but BA/GS won thru tactics.)

Final race 1 Light air . Boats did not engage. Prada was on foils. Ineos could not get on foils in the pre start. Boat design highlighted JS

Race 2 Ben to leeward bow out. Jimmy forced to tack.  BA

Race 3  Boat handling error by Ineos while chasing LR from astern, Jimmy owns start . JS

Race 4 Jimmy confidently places boat going fast at favored end . Ineos all over the place and have to start on port JS

Race 5 Both boats OCS. Messy call by umpires.  IMO, Jimmy was winning the pre start but blew it by getting OCS. . Like Race 4, Ineos were starting to look muddled and lacking confidence in the prestart. Draw since both were OCS. 

Race 6 More confident positioning by Ben compared to 2 prior races. Hit the line with speed  down the line from Jimmy, marginally bow out and Jimmy eventually tacks away. BA

Race 7 Ben owned start better time and distance. Started 1/2- 1 BL bow out on LR   BA

Race 8 Jimmy looked like he owned it, BA was early and had to tack to cross JS. But BA pulled a start on port out of the hat and JS was ocs and had to take a penalty   BA 

My comments are mainly related to BA in the final were the real pressure exists.  So my comments below only relate to the Prada Cup. 

 In your summary of the races and who won, I disagree with race 7 which I thought the Italians won. They wanted the right hand side which payed big dividends. Also race 5 was won by Jimmy, he managed to get penalties put on Ineos. You might disagree with the umpires, but Jimmy definitely tried and successfully got penalties against Ben. 
 

I do agree Ben won the start in races 6 and 8 and marginally won the start in race 2 and that Jimmy won the start in the five other races.  Also some of Jimmy wins in the start were decisive such as races 1,3 and 4. 
 

I don’t blame Ben for losing the Prada cup final because LR had a speed edge.  However he did lose the starts 5 to 3 which was not a great performance. 

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6 minutes ago, mako23 said:

My comments are mainly related to BA in the final were the real pressure exists.  Some my comments below only relate to the Prada Cup. 

 In your summary of the races and who won, I disagree with race 7 which I thought the Italians won. They wanted the right hand side which payed big dividends. Also race 5 was won by Jimmy, he managed to get penalties put on Ineos. You might disagree with the umpires, but Jimmy definitely tried and successfully got penalties against Ben. 
 

I do agree Ben won the start in races 6 and 8 and marginally won the start in race 2 and that Jimmy won the start in the five other races.  Also some of Jimmy wins in the start were decisive such as races 1,3 and 4. 
 

I don’t blame Ben for losing the Prada cup final because LR had a speed edge.  However he did lose the starts 5 to 3 which was not a great performance. 

So, you are basically claiming that Ben buckles under pressure which is absurd and totally wrong. You do not win 4 Gold Medals in the Olympics in a row if you don't perform under pressure.

May I suggest to you to watch the 2012 Olympic Finn Regatta where he was completely on the back foot and pulled it off.

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33 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

So, you are basically claiming that Ben buckles under pressure which is absurd and totally wrong. You do not win 4 Gold Medals in the Olympics in a row if you don't perform under pressure.

May I suggest to you to watch the 2012 Olympic Finn Regatta where he was completely on the back foot and pulled it off.

The America’s cup and the Olympics is not the same and not comparable. But let me state this clearly Bens performance in the Olympics is outstanding and totally brilliant. In that field he stands head and shoulders above the rest. 
 

Being outstanding brilliant in Olympic sailing doesn’t mean your going to succeed in the America’s cup. There’s a world of difference between racing a dingy versus an AC75 doing 50 knots. So the pressures different, on a AC75 he has a team to manage versus a dingy where he is on his own. I suspect he would be a brilliant single handled racer around the world. 
 

The fact is  that in three races Jimmy gave Ben a complete lesson  in match racing. When Ben did win the start it was still close. In my opinion Jimmy totally outclassed Ben. To be fair he also did a better job than Peter Burling in the AC75 final. 
 

I don’t think that Ben massively chocked against Jimmy but I do thing that he did let Jimmy get the better of him, due to 


(A) Jimmy is a better match racer

or

(B) He let the pressure get to him

Or maybe  it’s a combination of both.
 

Also the 2012 Olympics was 9 years ago when Ben was at his peak. Time has moved on and I suspect Ben is not as good as he use to be. Father Time  affects us all and that includes Ben. 

When Ben does retire from sailing he will still be rightly regarded as one of the greats. No one can take that away from him

 

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29 minutes ago, SimonN said:

Are you ever right about anything? Ben is older than Chris.

Why did Draper step off GBR's SailGP F50 Boat after one Season? Because he was too old!

Draper would be as clumsy as hell steering an AC75!

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7 hours ago, mako23 said:

 

 In your summary of the races and who won, I disagree with race 7 which I thought the Italians won. They wanted the right hand side which payed big dividends.  Maybe they always wanted the right but Ben won the start , significantly bow out and giving LR bad air.  LR had to tack whether they wanted left or right.  We were not analyzing tactics but pre-start and start.

Also race 5 was won by Jimmy, he managed to get penalties put on Ineos. You might disagree with the umpires, but Jimmy definitely tried and successfully got penalties against Ben. 

Race 5 was won by Jimmy .  But you cannot claim that Jimmy won that start. Jimmy should have had that  start...Ben was in a bad pot....but Ben dragged Jimmy OCS as well. Bad mistake by Jimmy .I would argue that if Ben had Jimmy in a similar tough spot, he would have closed the deal, forced Jimmy OCS and started cleanly himself.  Let's give Jimmy credit for getting Ineos into a precarious position but then failing to execute.  But I gave Jimmy credit for the start light air start where LR was foiling in the prestart and Ineos was not foiling.  I really dont think yu can give credit to Jimmy for that one


I do agree Ben won the start in races 6 and 8 and marginally won the start in race 2 and that Jimmy won the start in the five other races.  Also some of Jimmy wins in the start were decisive such as races 1,3 and 4. In summary Ben won 6 starts. Jimmy won 4 starts and one of those he won because Ineos could not get on the fols. Give Jimmy race 5 and take awy the light air start and you reach the same inescapable conclusion.....Ben wins starts.

Any way you cut it, Ben won more starts vs the Spitbull in the Prada Cup Challenger series.

Im taking nothing away from Spitty because even when he loses starts he is rarely a disaster . He has 2 bad ones out of 11 starts and lost 4 by a small margin which is pretty damn good when going up against Ainslie .  All of the AC helms have a lot of technology to help them judge time and distance, but Ainslie has something indefinable extra whch makes him the single most dangerous skipper in the starting box at current time.  


 

I don’t blame Ben for losing the Prada cup final because LR had a speed edge.  

LR also sailed superbly and made some good critical tactical calls. A deserving victory.

 

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13 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Why did Draper step off GBR's SailGP F50 Boat after one Season? Because he was too old!

Draper would be as clumsy as hell steering an AC75!

He stepped off because Ben and co were stepping on and Ben brought his own team with him.  He stayed on as co-CEO.  Age had naught to do with it. (he is a year younger than Ben but I have no idea if he is in as good shape as ben)

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3 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Why did Draper step off GBR's SailGP F50 Boat after one Season? Because he was too old!

Draper would be as clumsy as hell steering an AC75!

You are too stupid to argue with. 

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All this back and forth about the sailing team at Ineos.   

Yet we dont talk about the BIG ISSUE at Ineos.  What changes at the design team need to be made o produce a winning boat?

The Ineos sailing team is very respectable. We can split hairs about how many starts they won or lost but put them on a fast boat and they can win the cup. 

What needs to happen at the design team?

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11 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

All this back and forth about the sailing team at Ineos.   

Yet we dont talk about the BIG ISSUE at Ineos.  What changes at the design team need to be made o produce a winning boat?

The Ineos sailing team is very respectable. We can split hairs about how many starts they won or lost but put them on a fast boat and they can win the cup. 

What needs to happen at the design team?

Pick a better design?...

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4 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Pick a better design?...

The design team is very large with 51 designers, engineers, software, fluid dynamics experts etc.   With this size of team and resources (and this excludes the Mercedes engineers) then managing the process is key. ETNZ had about 25 designers and engineers listed on their website.

I think JR needs to direct the teams attention to the design process for the next boat....make sure it is brilliantly led

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2 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

The design team is very large with 51 designers, engineers, software, fluid dynamics experts etc.   With this size of team and resources (and this excludes the Mercedes engineers) then managing the process is key. ETNZ had about 25 designers and engineers listed on their website.

I think JR needs to direct the teams attention to the design process for the next boat....make sure it is brilliantly led

Was being a bit facetious with the comment.

At the same time, even brilliantly lead teams can/do get it wrong. My understanding is they have admitted to an incorrect assumption from day one. They knew gaining end plate advantage by flying low would be an advantage, they also discounted it on the assumption the stable flight required was not achievable.

Hard to blame them,  the rules they raced under, especially the short time in the start box where created using the same assumption.

But no matter how well lead, one wrong assumption at the beginning can lead you off into the weeds.

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12 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

All this back and forth about the sailing team at Ineos.   

Yet we dont talk about the BIG ISSUE at Ineos.  What changes at the design team need to be made o produce a winning boat?

The Ineos sailing team is very respectable. We can split hairs about how many starts they won or lost but put them on a fast boat and they can win the cup. 

What needs to happen at the design team?

INEOS simply were on the backfoot by the rules that ETNZ/LR created. The Kiwis & Italians knew what they wanted to do for AC36 with the new Boat Class. They had a head start, simple truth.

My View is that INEOS doesn't have to change too much because the Design Advantage usually narrows if you keep the Boat Class for more than one AC Cycle see IACC Boats. The Version 5 of that Boat Class produced incredible close racing in 2007.

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11 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

INEOS simply were on the backfoot by the rules that ETNZ/LR created. The Kiwis & Italians knew what they wanted to do for AC36 with the new Boat Class. They had a head start, simple truth.

My View is that INEOS doesn't have to change too much because the Design Advantage usually narrows if you keep the Boat Class for more than one AC Cycle see IACC Boats. The Version 5 of that Boat Class produced incredible close racing in 2007.

Design differences will narrow as class lasts a few cycles.  However, one still wants to be on the right side of those smaller differences. 

NZ will want to have a faster boat than B 2 and Ineos need to try and leapfrog TNZ.... which will not be easy.

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1 hour ago, The Main Man said:

I think you mean "dogged." At least, I hope so as dogging means something very, very different!

Of Course I do! English is not my First Language so please bare with me:)

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/4/2021 at 5:12 PM, barfy said:

She says rich people who are known to avoid tax should be seen as “social pariahs … a national disgrace, not heroes”. Some of the wealthiest Britons are no longer based in the UK, which allows them to make significant tax savings. Sir James Ratcliffe, the UK’s richest person and a high-profile Brexiter, last year quit Britain for tax-free Monaco. It has been estimated that the move will ultimately save him £4bn in tax payments. Other rich Britons who have moved to Monaco include the former Topshop boss Sir Philip Green and his wife, Tina; the property billionaires Simon and David Reuben; John Hargreaves, the founder and chairman of Matalan; and Formula One driver Lewis Hamilton. In 2019, John Caudwell, the billionaire founder of Phones4u, vowed to join them in Monaco if Labour was elected and raised taxes.

Bet, Sir James likes the much better weather too.  Good on him.

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On 4/4/2021 at 5:12 PM, barfy said:

She says rich people who are known to avoid tax should be seen as “social pariahs … a national disgrace, not heroes”. Some of the wealthiest Britons are no longer based in the UK, which allows them to make significant tax savings. Sir James Ratcliffe, the UK’s richest person and a high-profile Brexiter, last year quit Britain for tax-free Monaco. It has been estimated that the move will ultimately save him £4bn in tax payments. Other rich Britons who have moved to Monaco include the former Topshop boss Sir Philip Green and his wife, Tina; the property billionaires Simon and David Reuben; John Hargreaves, the founder and chairman of Matalan; and Formula One driver Lewis Hamilton. In 2019, John Caudwell, the billionaire founder of Phones4u, vowed to join them in Monaco if Labour was elected and raised taxes.

The UK tax system is punitive to those who work hard. My wife worked out she was in reality paying about 55% tax in the UK. After the being the tax mans whipping boy for so long both my wife and I were happy to go back to New Zealand.  No plans to ever return while such punitive taxes exist. Don’t blame any Billionaires leaving and coming a tax exile. I imagine their attitude is “if your going to be greedy tax man, you can get nothing”. Most people know we all need to pay tax, but not half your income should go

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1 hour ago, Filthy Phill said:

Unfortunately, the mess Billionaires leave behind accumulating their wealth, requires tax too remedy.

Yes in the case of  INEOS he left multiple business employing  thousands of people, how jolly awful of him.. 

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3 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Yes in the case of  INEOS he left multiple business employing  thousands of people, how jolly awful of him.. 

Let them pay the taxes as sir J is too busy employing the world and helping the UK better define themselves...albeit without him now. Atlas must have shrugged and left town.

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6 hours ago, mako23 said:

The UK tax system is punitive to those who work hard. My wife worked out she was in reality paying about 55% tax in the UK. After the being the tax mans whipping boy for so long both my wife and I were happy to go back to New Zealand.  No plans to ever return while such punitive taxes exist. Don’t blame any Billionaires leaving and coming a tax exile. I imagine their attitude is “if your going to be greedy tax man, you can get nothing”. Most people know we all need to pay tax, but not half your income should go

So you left ultra-capitalist UK for socialist NZ to pay less tax. Go figure...

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1 hour ago, barfy said:

Let them pay the taxes as sir J is too busy employing the world and helping the UK better define themselves...albeit without him now. Atlas must have shrugged and left town.

He should be personally responsible for the taxes encountered by his businesses that run in the U.K.?  What an odd idea. 
 

his U.K. business pay tax in the U.K. as do his employees in the U.K. 

 

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INEOS TEAM UK first have to built a Team Culture if they ever want to win the America's Cup. I am currently rewatching the 2017/2018 VOR and Dongfeng Race Team had a really good Team Culture despite all the setbacks along the way like giving up Leg leads, etc. Charles Caudrelier really willed his Team on, amazing Leader without one bit of ego. Carolijn Brower described Dongfeng as "Family".

Ben Ainslie as good as he might be has too much an EGO and that's holding the Team back to win the AC.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

INEOS TEAM UK first have to built a Team Culture if they ever want to win the America's Cup. I am currently rewatching the 2017/2018 VOR and Dongfeng Race Team had a really good Team Culture despite all the setbacks along the way like giving up Leg leads, etc. Charles Caudrelier really willed his Team on, amazing Leader without one bit of ego. Carolijn Brower described Dongfeng as "Family".

Ben Ainslie as good as he might be has too much an EGO and that's holding the Team back to win the AC.

Get fucked.

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7 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

INEOS TEAM UK first have to built a Team Culture if they ever want to win the America's Cup. I am currently rewatching the 2017/2018 VOR and Dongfeng Race Team had a really good Team Culture despite all the setbacks along the way like giving up Leg leads, etc. Charles Caudrelier really willed his Team on, amazing Leader without one bit of ego. Carolijn Brower described Dongfeng as "Family".

Ben Ainslie as good as he might be has too much an EGO and that's holding the Team back to win the AC.

Do you have any evidence to  support your claim that he has an ego that is holding the team back?

 

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7 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

INEOS TEAM UK first have to built a Team Culture if they ever want to win the America's Cup. I am currently rewatching the 2017/2018 VOR and Dongfeng Race Team had a really good Team Culture despite all the setbacks along the way like giving up Leg leads, etc. Charles Caudrelier really willed his Team on, amazing Leader without one bit of ego. Carolijn Brower described Dongfeng as "Family".

Ben Ainslie as good as he might be has too much an EGO and that's holding the Team back to win the AC.

There is nothing wrong with having an ego, I think you will find that Grant Dalton has an ego.  The ability to make decisions while taking into account only the relevant facts would seem to be the key requirement.

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7 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

There is nothing wrong with having an ego, I think you will find that Grant Dalton has an ego.  The ability to make decisions while taking into account only the relevant facts would seem to be the key requirement.

Ainslie has tremendously poor Managing Qualities as well.

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