Salty Seacock

Emirates Team New Zealand.

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

So, you are afraid to answer the question: is the altitude playing a role or not ?

Hint, do you confuse plane wing endplating with an AC75 hull ?

The answer to that question is painfully obvious... as @Stingray~ already tried to explain to you, end-plating is not a binary, it runs along a continuum from "basically none' to 'almost 100%', dependent on a number of factors, and plainly put, for a given hull shape, the smaller the gap, the more the end-plating effect.

But you were the one said the LR don't have an end-plating hull. You were the one that then went on claim it was just the photo you were referring to. You were the one that then went on to post other photos that looked basically the same. Everyone pointed it out. But you decide to keep this argument going. You were wrong. Plain and simple.

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2 hours ago, riggert said:

Te Aihe has arrived back in NZ

That trip was quicker than expected. Some said she wasn’t due back till at least mid June. 

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2 hours ago, riggert said:

Te Aihe has arrived back in NZ

Seems I was right. 

I mentioned two months ago in the new protocol thread that it would be the second half of May...

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So the video proves what the creator wanted it to prove.

Te Aihe clearly starts from deeper (between the Red Shipping Cans) and is sailing a tighter course.

The notes even say that Te Kahu is 0.3nm closer to the lens.

I would be surprised if the development boat hadn't improved, and the design team would be disappointed; but too many unknowns and variables to call it a comparison.

Good find though @Stingray~

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Remember folks... in 1995 there was a story/ rumour going around that NZL32 was a “dog” and  NZL20 was in fact going to be painted and sent to San Diego instead of NZL32. It is covered in Black Magic the Team NZ story. Personally I remember it made the 6 o clock news and headlined the newspapers at the time.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Remember folks... in 1995 there was a story/ rumour going around that NZL32 was a “dog” and  NZL20 was in fact going to be painted and sent to San Diego instead of NZL32. It is covered in Black Magic the Team NZ story. Personally I remember it made the 6 o clock news and headlined the newspapers at the time.

So what’s the waterfront scuttlebutt this time that Te Kahu is actually B2 but just needs a few more months to grow up...

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36 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

So what’s the waterfront scuttlebutt this time that Te Kahu is actually B2 but just needs a few more months to grow up...

Nope. Te Kahu is B1.5 designed and built as a test platform to continue development for B2 while Te Aihe is overseas, a plan which has clearly paid dividends.

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Remember folks... in 1995 there was a story/ rumour going around that NZL32 was a “dog” and  NZL20 was in fact going to be painted and sent to San Diego instead of NZL32. It is covered in Black Magic the Team NZ story. Personally I remember it made the 6 o clock news and headlined the newspapers at the time.

Yep.

NZL32 was a dog. Could only just hang on upwind and was a dog downwind.

NZL38 wasn't much faster and everyone believed it.

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4 hours ago, Boink said:

So the video proves what the creator wanted it to prove.

Te Aihe clearly starts from deeper (between the Red Shipping Cans) and is sailing a tighter course.

The notes even say that Te Kahu is 0.3nm closer to the lens.

I would be surprised if the development boat hadn't improved, and the design team would be disappointed; but too many unknowns and variables to call it a comparison.

Good find though @Stingray~

I'm thinking the special marker Te Kahu goes behind at 8 sec on her clock is the one off Rough rock? which would put her a half mile closer than Te Aihe who is in the channel?

Pretty hard to compare with a looong lens. But pretty .

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I heard they're taking a chainsaw to the old AC72, gonna salvage that canoe-body for a more efficient belly :ph34r:

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18 hours ago, riggert said:

Te Aihe has arrived back in NZ

Any guesses here about which boat they will sail and develop? Both? 

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Which of the 3......is that your question?

And what do you think?

(on my phone ...... so can't parse your meaning) ;)

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18 hours ago, riggert said:

Te Aihe has arrived back in NZ

Can you guys remind me how sailing is supposed to be from now to Oct?

 

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^ ETNZ can three boat trial* while all others are either in lockdown in a plaguey place, have actually made it to NZ but are seemingly trapped forever in isolation room 237, their boat is in transit but the Tauranga waterside workers are striking for better PPE, or it is still being built but severe workplace distancing restrictions have added 18 months to the expected delivery, or it has just been sold as a lawn ornament!

*B1 now fully automated and run by the office AI

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27 minutes ago, nav said:

Which of the 3......is that your question?

And what do you think?

(on my phone ...... so can't parse your meaning) ;)

I actually think they will sail both boats - probably not but possibly at the same time. Testing of kit and techniques will be  better on one versus the other depending on the goal and I suppose the cost. Once B2 is launched, they will surely make that boat their focus.

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OK. 1/ they have 2 maybe 2 1/2 boats ATM so you need to be a bit clearer

2/ you must know that they cannot sail the 2 AC75s side by side or even close until the CSS starts

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53 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Can you guys remind me how sailing is supposed to be from now to Oct?

 

Sorry, I meant weather / sailing conditions over the next months

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

I actually think they will sail both boats - probably not but possibly at the same time. Testing of kit and techniques will be  better on one versus the other depending on the goal and I suppose the cost. Once B2 is launched, they will surely make that boat their focus.

Don't forget the simulator inputs. Two boat testing is so last millennium.

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20 hours ago, riggert said:

Te Aihe has arrived back in NZ

I think that you can now see her on the take a break webcam? wrapping still on and I assume its not B2....

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Unless they are fuckwits they will have spare capacity in skills in case a key member breaks a leg. 

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23 hours ago, rh3000 said:

The answer to that question is painfully obvious... as @Stingray~ already tried to explain to you, end-plating is not a binary, it runs along a continuum from "basically none' to 'almost 100%', dependent on a number of factors, and plainly put, for a given hull shape, the smaller the gap, the more the end-plating effect.

But you were the one said the LR don't have an end-plating hull. You were the one that then went on claim it was just the photo you were referring to. You were the one that then went on to post other photos that looked basically the same. Everyone pointed it out. But you decide to keep this argument going. You were wrong. Plain and simple.

^^ You understood my hint about the altitude and ajusted your point of view about it seemingly. So you are not wrong anymore :)

End plating is much more complicated than just a “viscious element”. On a plane, endplating reduces the velocity of the flow under the surface of the wing by pushing the tip vortex on the side. However a plane close to the surface reduces the vortex and increases the pressure so the end plating result should be more efficient, also the endplate of the hull increases the pressure for even better results.

My assumption was that on the first photo, event though low, the boat was too high, the hull had too much banana to have an efficient end plating, so my joke to say that it was not endplating.

Was my observation of the photo good or not ? difficult to say, but yes, you are right the the smaller the gap, the best for a given hull.

That said, I am not a aero specialist, I am just a sailor and flied for years with a wing, mainly with a powered parachute, so I have some idea of air flows.

It will probably never be proved right wrong as there won’t be any demonstration I guess. We don’t know if it really works, we did not measure the possisble advantages and disadvantages we don’t even know if B2s will come with this kind of hull. Most interesting would be to have different hulls to compare though.

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4 hours ago, Xlot said:

Sorry, I meant weather / sailing conditions over the next months

Good breezes...

 

Screenshot_20200526-115337_Chrome.jpg

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ You understood my hint about the altitude and ajusted your point of view about it seemingly. So you are not wrong anymore :)

End plating is much more complicated than just a “viscious element”. On a plane, endplating reduces the velocity of the flow under the surface of the wing by pushing the tip vortex on the side. However a plane close to the surface reduces the vortex and increases the pressure so the end plating result should be more efficient, also the endplate of the hull increases the pressure for even better results.

My assumption was that on the first photo, event though low, the boat was too high, the hull had too much banana to have an efficient end plating, so my joke to say that it was not endplating.

Was my observation of the photo good or not ? difficult to say, but yes, you are right the the smaller the gap, the best for a given hull.

That said, I am not a aero specialist, I am just a sailor and flied for years with a wing, mainly with a powered parachute, so I have some idea of air flows.

It will probably never be proved right wrong as there won’t be any demonstration I guess. We don’t know if it really works, we did not measure the possisble advantages and disadvantages we don’t even know if B2s will come with this kind of hull. Most interesting would be to have different hulls to compare though.

Nice try, but still no-one is buying it. Just give up and move on man.

"yeah cheers for that - LR is actually an end-plating hull" :)

Is it too hard to type or something?

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5 hours ago, nav said:

OK. 1/ they have 2 maybe 2 1/2 boats ATM so you need to be a bit clearer

2/ you must know that they cannot sail the 2 AC75s side by side or even close until the CSS starts

Sort of, but not exactly. Here's the wording of article 11.1 f):

f) Each Competitor shall only sail one of its yachts at a time except the Defender who will be entitled to sail two yachts from the time of the first scheduled race in the CSS. 

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11 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Nice try, but still no-one is buying it. Just give up and move on man.

"yeah cheers for that - LR is actually an end-plating hull" :)

Is it too hard to type or something?

Jeeez, you are not even able to be coherent with what you write. 

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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but...

18 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Jeeez, you are not even able to be coherent with what you write. 

1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

That said, I am not a aero specialist.

 

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Just now, Ex-yachtie said:

We might see some match racing soon...

Should be good seeing big boat and little boat running around together...

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So it is highly unlikely to see B2 until too late for the Challengers to benefit. As @Forourselves stated there is the history of letting sub stories run the rumour mill, and remember that revealing the AC72 in full angry flight too early still rankles and remains as the teams most costly mistake.

B1 will allow testing of promising fullsized developments discovered from B1.5 in smaller scale. So expect to see (or not see) developed sails, sail control systems and whatever other handing packages (hydraulic changes and flight control changes etc) also tested at full size in full load. 

I would not expect to see new foils or anything significantly visually obvious on B1. Why give away free lunches and hints to your competition?

Great opportunity to re-correlate data from the two platforms to leapfrog onto the B2, which is really what the whole show is about. 

Its what you won't notice or see happening to B1 that will be the focus, to make sure B2 is as optimised as can be expected. Determining where Bulbless foils are glass ceilined and where Bulbed foils come good so that on the days of variable windspeed the correct package is selected. 

The design team will have a thousand ideas to test, whilst the sailing team are trying to dial in handling and choreography to be race repeatable. These two competing needs alone, can be a fractious relationship. Compromise is where the best of both worlds is almost achieved.

Which is why I laugh at the back peddling going on with respect to Hull shapes and Endplating. The boat still needs to take off, so the most optimal endplate is traded for something that can drag its weird arse out of the water with both lift and easy realease without needing hurricane force winds to do so....... Who has even authoritatively showed that the Theoretical endplate gains outweigh the gains from having easy and early hull release from water to flight, or has better outcomes from the occasional touchdown?

The fact that 3 of 4 teams now have experience in this direction, points the finger at AM as being the outlier. Whose slippery looking foredeck is completely undone by her Fugly Rhinoplasty, and the rest of the package looks as conservative (aft deck aero, crew placement, foils, sails and sail control et al.) as a radical new class could possibly be. Hope they throw the ball a LOT further with B2.

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7 hours ago, Xlot said:

Sorry, I meant weather / sailing conditions over the next months

Well, to keep it simple, they will sail on good weather days and hit the gym when it's shitty!

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Te Kāhu is back out on the water for some evening training. Headed straight out around north head.

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5 hours ago, Boink said:

foils come good so that on the days of variable windspeed the correct package is selected

Not really..I think teams need to choose a couple days before the match and stick with their weapons..

 

5 hours ago, Boink said:

AM as being the outlier.

I think that being early on the water and having serious tech we'll see AM in the match.

Anyone know how the betting odds are going?

5 hours ago, Boink said:

Which is why I laugh at the back peddling going on with respect to Hull shapes and Endplating. The boat still needs to take off, so the most optimal endplate is traded for something that can drag its weird arse out of the water with both lift and easy realease without needing hurricane force winds to do so....... Who has even authoritatively showed that the Theoretical endplate gains outweigh the gains from having easy and early hull release from water to flight, or has better outcomes from the occasional touchdown?

This. Etnz won in bda with a package that let them get the job done consistently. For the winds during the match, low range mastery plus crew synergy will keep the cup in NZ.

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3 hours ago, barfy said:

I think teams need to choose a couple days before the match and stick with their weapons..

120hrs. (hat tip acnick)

With a list of order of replacement if stuff in the preferred config breaks.

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from the ETNZ piece,

“We have had some new components and systems that were ready for the ACWS racing so the guys are chomping at the bit to getting back out testing the new set ups and continuing our developments and obviously making up for lost time.”

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18 hours ago, barfy said:

Not really..I think teams need to choose a couple days before the match and stick with their weapons...

I believe you will ultimately see 2 sets of foils developed - one per set of foil arms permitted - a low wind range and a higher wind range set of foils with reasonable overlap between the configurations, say 5 knots of windspeed crossover.

The amount of fairing and finishing is so detailed and refined that it is unrealistic to expect daily changes to be anything other than a wholesale swap between foil arms each having the finished and faired foil variations upon them - The arms are a One Designed supplied unit - so the  bearing and inner hydraulic connection will be the same for both sets of arms - allowing a relatively fast swap around - hazard a guess of 6-8hr process to extract existing and replace with alternate. Thereby allowing daily selection choices to roll with weather updates.

However many lay days that a team can invoke, will be critical, should damage occur to the preferred set should it need tearing apart and rebuilding. Sure that the boatbuilders and logistics guys are role playing such an event to see what migitation can be pre-planned.

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3 hours ago, Boink said:

you will ultimately see 2 sets of foils developed - one per set of foil arms permitted

But

18 hours ago, hoom said:

120hrs. (hat tip acnick)

With a list of order of replacement if stuff in the preferred config breaks.

Of course our resident rules lawyer reinforces the fact that.. Another tip off the hat acNick.

You need to decide on your weapons, (foils and flaps), 120 hrs before the match. And stick with them. GD has said the idea is to develop an allaround kit. 

That's 5 days before the match. In the nz summer, with a 3 to 5 day lead time on what the Australian interior will serve us up, you may have an idea regards day 5. You certainly will have no fucking idea about the match.

 

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On 5/25/2020 at 3:52 AM, Tornado-Cat said:

Difficult to know as the conditions may not be the same but it gives an idea.

It's not hard to see why the little boat appears to be faster: it's much closer to the camera. A trick of perspective. The same reason LR seemed to be smoking  INEOS (except in that case the camera was also moving in the opposite direction so as to hugely exaggerate the apparent speed difference).

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44 minutes ago, barfy said:

You need to decide on your weapons, (foils and flaps), 120 hrs before the match. And stick with them. GD has said the idea is to develop an allaround kit. 

I think that regardless of "one design", one set of arms will be preferred over the other and that will be the set they'll want to use for all races. Every change is a re–measure.

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3 hours ago, barfy said:

But

Of course our resident rules lawyer reinforces the fact that.. Another tip off the hat acNick.

You need to decide on your weapons, (foils and flaps), 120 hrs before the match. And stick with them. GD has said the idea is to develop an allaround kit. 

That's 5 days before the match. In the nz summer, with a 3 to 5 day lead time on what the Australian interior will serve us up, you may have an idea regards day 5. You certainly will have no fucking idea about the match.

 

OK my bad, was unaware of the 120hr rule, and even more reason for developing two configurations with decent overlap between the two.

No pressure whatsoever on Clouds (Roger) then.........!

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On 5/26/2020 at 1:39 PM, Ex-yachtie said:

We might see some match racing soon...

On 5/26/2020 at 1:41 PM, NZL3481 said:

Should be good seeing big boat and little boat running around together...

On 5/26/2020 at 2:11 PM, NeedAClew said:

Playing like kittens, cute. :)

Can't wait!

They are probably all set to install powered winches on The Aihe for social distancing, and then give the grinders a chance to learn some new skills as back-ups.

And absolutely nothing beats 2-boat training for improving racing skills. If the match racing is gone be tight, and we all hope so, that may prove more important than pure boat speed.

 

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On 5/26/2020 at 9:16 AM, Stingray~ said:

from the ETNZ piece,

“We have had some new components and systems that were ready for the ACWS racing so the guys are chomping at the bit to getting back out testing the new set ups and continuing our developments and obviously making up for lost time.”

He must be talking about the bulb foils....-_-

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Excellent interview with, Gashby from the Front Page: Yes. There is a Front Page. Check it out

 

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Pete probably needs to show some bling for when the"billionaire club" arrive with their toys in a few weeks!

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10 minutes ago, Lat35sowth said:

Pete probably needs to show some bling for when the"billionaire club" arrive with their toys in a few weeks!

To the winner goes the spoils.

House is a cracker and considering the card carrying RNZYS member living next to me paid out $4.2 mil Pistol Pete got a Poncenby bargain.

 

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47 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Excellent interview with, Gashby from the Front Page: Yes. There is a Front Page. Check it out

 

Glen banged on on a bit like Trump regarding the self righting capabilities of the AC 75.

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28 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Glen banged on on a bit like Trump regarding the self righting capabilities of the AC 75.

Interesting how he talked about the power gain from the double skin main though - suggesting that with a conventional main, more ballast would be needed to self-right, using an otherwise taller rig to generate the same power. Good stuff.

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22 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Interesting how he talked about the power gain from the double skin main though - suggesting that with a conventional main, more ballast would be needed to self-right, using an otherwise taller rig to generate the same power. Good stuff.

Wonder what the cost difference was between the twin skin set up and the comparable hp of the extra 6ft of single  sail mast to match in performance.

Most probably moonbeams.

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29 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Interesting how he talked about the power gain from the double skin main though - suggesting that with a conventional main, more ballast would be needed to self-right, using an otherwise taller rig to generate the same power. Good stuff.

Shit don't tell Tornado Coward!

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The most pertinent thing I took away from Glens statements was he is away in foiling fluffy land.

No wonder the contenders are in such disarray considering the delay in design disclosure the foil mechanism debacle  continuing complexity and burgeoning budgets this thing didn’t need Covid19 to add to the ridiculous scale of AC sailing absurdity.

Sure bring it on yup I will watch it but won’t spend on merchandise nor enthusiasm for the next cycle.

 

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Just now, SCARECROW said:

Can you all show some respect and spell Glenn’s name right.

He's too busy humblebragging about living in Ponsonby a few doors down from PB - well... a glory-hole in an alley off K-road, but close enough eh! :D

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18 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey just round the corner from me so will popover with a few welcoming Steinlagers and some hot chups.

I recall that Ponsonby has about 4 inches of soil over clay. I could feel the neighbours walking down the hall two houses over. The clay is like a trampoline, and those old homes are paper thin.(though there has to be a bunch of concrete and steel in Glen's to be able to open those doors more than once.

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ETNZ are currently testing/training out by Waiheke on the Maraetai side.

Lots of long runs on both foils. Doesn't look like they're testing one side specifically. We've had one headsail change so far.

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Good breeze forecast. Should a nice long development day :ph34r:

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Blair Tuke back to roots in star-studded New Zealand Open Teams Racing National Championships

"Blair Tuke will head back to his roots when he sails at this weekend's New Zealand Open Teams Racing National Championships in Kerikeri but fully expects to get "dusted up" by some of this country's best young talent."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12335772

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8 hours ago, mikenz2 said:

ETNZ are currently testing/training out by Waiheke on the Maraetai side.

Lots of long runs on both foils.

Too far away for decent photos but I watched them for a while around midday and they were throwing Te Kahu around - maybe handling practice, or maybe simulated match racing with a chase boat?

Reminded me a bit of the AC50 workouts we saw prior to shipping off to Bermuda.

DSC_0443.jpg

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24 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

 

That’s a loong day on the water!

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18 minutes ago, uflux said:

That’s a loong day on the water!

Not at this time of the year. 

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On 5/25/2020 at 8:38 PM, Boink said:

As @Forourselves stated there is the history of letting sub stories run the rumour mill, and remember that revealing the AC72 in full angry flight too early still rankles and remains as the teams most costly mistake.

 

Isn't this just a myth like that stupid thing about buying up all the black paint in NZ or something? Like the other teams would dismiss one of the strongest teams for the previous few cycles because of some dumbass rumour and even if they did how could it matter. Oracle launched with a full foiling package on their boat around the same time the Kiwi's launched. Their boat wasn't designed to fully foil, but they had been clearly working on it for months before the Kiwi's made that run that was filmed. Or am I not remembering this right?

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Black paint and rumours.

The reason NZL 32 & 38 were painted black was apparently sourced from the fact black submarines are faster than any other colour:P

Bugger it didn’t work in 2003 though.

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2 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Black paint and rumours.

The reason NZL 32 & 38 were painted black was apparently sourced from the fact black submarines are faster than any other colour:P

Bugger it didn’t work in 2003 though.

One Australia should of been black....

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31 minutes ago, NZL4EVER said:

One Australia should of been black....

Along with ballast tanks and a fucking big air pump!

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7 hours ago, pusslicker said:

Or am I not remembering this right?

TNZ launched 21 July, Orifice 30 Aug.

In the recent Simmer interview in the other thread he admits they'd made a crash effort after seeing TNZ.

1 hour ago, NZL4EVER said:

One Australia should of been black....

Oof

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5 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Black paint and rumours.

The reason NZL 32 & 38 were painted black was apparently sourced from the fact black submarines are faster than any other colour:P

Bugger it didn’t work in 2003 though.

Oracle launched their tiller steered abomination that got a complete make over soon after.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQeenvUgbBsH5pnwz-slCd

 

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Oh jesus christ I'd forgotten about that agricultural contraption :ph34r:

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20 hours ago, weta27 said:

Too far away for decent photos but I watched them for a while around midday and they were throwing Te Kahu around - maybe handling practice, or maybe simulated match racing with a chase boat?

Reminded me a bit of the AC50 workouts we saw prior to shipping off to Bermuda.

DSC_0443.jpg

<sarcasm font>Whoa, that is a pretty ugly place y'all have to tolerate.</sarcasm font>. Figure it out Ed.

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Oracle launched their tiller steered abomination that got a complete make over soon after.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQeenvUgbBsH5pnwz-slCd

 

Yup solid proof that black is far faster.

The reason USA17 tripped was the slow grey portion of the bow got overtaken by the far faster rear black portion of the hull.

or-17-fourth-ggotu-4377-1.jpg.df98e691cb8d887c3a523d092442c543.jpgor-72-capsize-ggotu-8791-1.jpg.a63a0f22d7ab949b8b6949c1c09cfbfe.jpg

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Crikey it just dawned on me it wasn't Herbie after all.

Those cunning cheating Yanks had two 17's.

We was robbed.

DSC_0201.thumb.jpg.218cab2d3d219029fcadd83589e76406.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, Priscilla said:

The reason USA17 tripped was the slow grey portion of the bow got overtaken by the far faster rear black portion of the hull.

:lol:

And now we understand the real reason they painted the bows racing red afterwards.

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4 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey it just dawned on me it wasn't Herbie after all.

Those cunning cheating Yanks had two 17's.

We was robbed.

DSC_0201.thumb.jpg.218cab2d3d219029fcadd83589e76406.jpg

 

Not a patch on the Lizard boats for looks, that's for sure.

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On 5/30/2020 at 9:42 AM, Priscilla said:

Black paint and rumours.

The reason NZL 32 & 38 were painted black was apparently sourced from the fact black submarines are faster than any other colour:P

Bugger it didn’t work in 2003 though.

2003 NZ showed up with only a semi submersible so benefits were negated

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9 minutes ago, 167149 said:

2003 NZ showed up with only a semi submersible so benefits were negated

Maybe a black bucket would have been more effective.

41A5DB8D-34EF-4FF3-8F1C-7FF51CEDD32F.jpeg.882b03b239f0ae9a1910bcc052cb9960.jpeg

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19 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Maybe a black bucket would have been more effective.

41A5DB8D-34EF-4FF3-8F1C-7FF51CEDD32F.jpeg.882b03b239f0ae9a1910bcc052cb9960.jpeg

funniest part of that was getting legless in the cavalier in 2000 and selling the idea that fatso made the lee clothes and dodgers on the black boat to some out of towners, didnt know how much they were needed 3 yrs later