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1 hour ago, kiwi39 said:

If they knew Cindy, like we know Cindy ...

virtue signalling PR princess ... who leads the sheep as they truly deserve 

of all the things to discuss, you choose to wring out your vinegar? the sheep 'deserved' a covid freee nation eh hawk..

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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

They towed out around 11am and the breeze was light and puffy to start with. Foiled down the Channel and headed out to the Bays. The breeze started to build around midday and they got some long runs i

After many hours of consideration, a lot of in-depth research on the SA technical threads, extensive computational modelling and a few quick & dirty minutes in Photoshop, I have produced this anal

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11 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

of all the things to discuss, you choose to wring out your vinegar? the sheep 'deserved' a covid freee nation eh hawk..

Absolutely I do. 
 

She’s the very embodiment of all that’s wrong with the broken system of democracy that sees a deeply dysfunctional and inefficient public service, self serving political parties and politicians of all leanings, serving the public of New Zealand increasingly poorly. 

The really sad thing ? Most don’t see it. Most are too busy convincing themselves that their party would do it much better than that other mob. 
 

but hey ... keep convincing yourself she’s marvellous if it makes you  happy. 

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19 minutes ago, gungabow said:

Oh Dear

Lets try this again for the slow guys.

The struts on all the other boats are fastened to the vertical aero foil spout

Inside these are runners for the top rudder bearing to run along.

ETNZ have done away with a lot of the weight of that fitting because the side loads are now born directly by the struts

That means the bottom of the struts rotate. 

That rotation line is from the bottom of the strut, through the bottom rudder bearing and on to the bottom of the other strut

Meaning this system can only be done on a boat that has a flat stern (AKA ETNZ B2)

 

Now for the rest of the class

I wonder if Lick could do a calc to let us know if the rudder is full length

If we know this we could maybe find out the range of movement within that gap

Warning : the ETNZ boys will see this and put a cover over it soon

So it’s not at all possible that the other teams have put a fixed shroud over the moving parts then? 
 

and you think the team will read you post realise you rumbled them and then cover it..... right :lol:

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19 minutes ago, kiwi39 said:

Absolutely I do. 
 

She’s the very embodiment of all that’s wrong with the broken system of democracy that sees a deeply dysfunctional and inefficient public service, self serving political parties and politicians of all leanings, serving the public of New Zealand increasingly poorly. 

The really sad thing ? Most don’t see it. Most are too busy convincing themselves that their party would do it much better than that other mob. 
 

but hey ... keep convincing yourself she’s marvellous if it makes you  happy. 

She’s an absolute amateur, leading an inept bunch of clowns in cabinet to drive NZ to the bottom of the barrel.  Simply the most lame PM ever in NZ, just all teeth and hugs , no clues 

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54 minutes ago, kiwi39 said:

Absolutely I do. 
 

She’s the very embodiment of all that’s wrong with the broken system of democracy that sees a deeply dysfunctional and inefficient public service, self serving political parties and politicians of all leanings, serving the public of New Zealand increasingly poorly. 

The really sad thing ? Most don’t see it. Most are too busy convincing themselves that their party would do it much better than that other mob. 
 

but hey ... keep convincing yourself she’s marvellous if it makes you  happy. 

Pinot must have kicked in, because you can't even spot the hyprocrisy within your own handful of confused lines.

Sock also cost you some points... 

Jog on...

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4 hours ago, Barnyb said:

"And then ClarkE took the Dubai/Akld flight on Emirates commenting favourably on the "extra service".

He then went home to order lawn mowing services from some guy called Karel Sroubek.

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From the front page The EDTypical Anti AC Bullshit from the ED, so does ETNZ need to go and find colored people for the sake of it? 

We’re likely to see nearly the same thing with the other three (or is it two?) America’s Cup teams, but for christ’s sake, it is not possible to have less people of color on this massive team. And that is because there are none. And would you like to attempt to count how many women there are? No need, we did it for you: The answer is one. As in token. Or maybe there are more, but were told not to worry their pretty little heads over a silly photo op…

Really, this is the message you wish to send? If you aren’t white and don’t have a penis, then fuck off? There was no one of equal talent otherwise? It is total bullshit, insulting to millions (well it would be millions if anybody really gave a fuck about the AC, which they don’t), is a poor look, and sends exactly the wrong message.

Looks pretty racist and misogynist to us. Apparently they didn’t get the message about diversity.

 

The ED didn't look hard enough "I stopped counting after the 3rd Asian person"

team-white-knights1-scaled.jpg

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On 11/20/2020 at 11:56 AM, nav said:

Seems to me it's kinda what most sensible people look like who face 60+kn winds while outside getting wet, skiers, motorcyclists etc, no?

Rules....have you read them? Fairings may not transmit loads etc?

We skiers don’t get wet. Motorcyclists maybe. 

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3 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Supporting Jacinda was pretty much a no brainer as the opposition would have sold their own spawn to gain access to the treasury benches thereby enabling them to redistribute what public wealth remains into their already bulging pockets.
CFA573FD-DC26-44FD-8587-02E906D2A4C8.jpeg.d9d5bc4533b99cb25ae3d9f110589079.jpeg

She really does look like a Rottweiler with a necklace...

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9 hours ago, uflux said:

BB is a bullshit artist. Just hot air out of his arse. ETNZ will do what they do. BB doesn’t have a clue what to expect.

I'm sure BB would appreciate the irony of people on this forum criticising him for talking bollocks from a position of ignorance :)

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18 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

TeRethuai.jpg.102fcd3f7c16eb9323322e267bd6d4b4.jpg

Definitely the largest amount of clean deck space around the sails. Biggest distance for the crew to cross as well - not that I think that will be an issue. From this point of view she looks a lot different to the other boats.

Looks like INEOS boat 1.

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30 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

TeRethuai.jpg.102fcd3f7c16eb9323322e267bd6d4b4.jpg

Definitely the largest amount of clean deck space around the sails. Biggest distance for the crew to cross as well - not that I think that will be an issue. From this point of view she looks a lot different to the other boats.

Looks like an AC50 from that angle, only with wider foils and one rudder.

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9 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

Looks like INEOS boat 1.

Kind of, but lots of differences as well. The Ineos crew trenches are much wider, and thus the central clean area is quite a bit smaller. No inner wall for the trenches obviously either. The stern area is quite different as well.

523230125_Webinar_INEOSTEAMUK_LeveragingtheDigitalTwintoinnovatebetterandfaster_tcm27-79503.thumb.jpg.bf84f8bbd19ad2f5807423d4de154d23.jpg

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11 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Thanks, missed that so far. 
 

similar, at https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2020/11/america-s-cup-team-new-zealand-opt-for-two-helmsman-with-new-boat.html

Kiwi sailing legend Brad Butterworth predicts Team New Zealand will opt for two helmsmen, when they defend the America's Cup in March 2021.

Team New Zealand's second boat is radically different from their first and came as a bit of a shock to onlookers, but Butterworth thinks the biggest shock is yet to come.

"The new boat looks like they might have two helmsmen, where they'll have dedicated helmsmen on side to side, which is something Luna Rossa are doing at the moment," he says. 

 

Make sense to have two helmsman.  The current fire drill just is not a good idea.  

Having guys cross before each turn lets the other team know what you are doing.  

Can you image them faking a turn?  Two guys run across, wait, and then run back across, .....  then run back across (oh wait, double fake...)

That boat is not designed to have sailors crossing sides.  The aero drag of having three men standing up on the deck has got to be much worse than the gain they get from enclosing the crew area.   They are just doing this now to learn how to sail the new boat (same reason they used the old foils).  Once they feel comfortable with the new boat and systems they will train in the second helmsman and not move crew from side to side.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

TeRethuai.jpg.102fcd3f7c16eb9323322e267bd6d4b4.jpg

Definitely the largest amount of clean deck space around the sails. Biggest distance for the crew to cross as well - not that I think that will be an issue. From this point of view she looks a lot different to the other boats.

Man you could use that stern as a straight edge.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Kind of, but lots of differences as well. The Ineos crew trenches are much wider, and thus the central clean area is quite a bit smaller. No inner wall for the trenches obviously either. The stern area is quite different as well.

523230125_Webinar_INEOSTEAMUK_LeveragingtheDigitalTwintoinnovatebetterandfaster_tcm27-79503.thumb.jpg.bf84f8bbd19ad2f5807423d4de154d23.jpg

This shows the difference in windage too, both from the crew and all the kit inside the trench, but also the height of the deck.

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7 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

So it’s not at all possible that the other teams have put a fixed shroud over the moving parts then? 
 

and you think the team will read you post realise you rumbled them and then cover it..... right :lol:

His point is that unless the outer strut fixings and the top bearing are geometrically aligned, the rudder needs to rotate in a different way resulting in a heavier system.  Because the struts are fixed directly to the top of the rudder, and move with it as it changes angle, there's no need for additional strengthening, tracks etc.  It's a very efficient structural system

ETNZ are able to utilise this approach because their stern is flat, the outer ends of the strut are lower and they are able to geometrically align the three points.

If you put aside the personal attacks, constant misinterpretation of sarcasm, and unchecked misogyny, it's observations like this that make this place great.  Thanks @gungabow

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13 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Seriously though could it be a reflection off the foil arm?

Still on about this 'reflection'?

Isn't it just print through from the structure attached to the inboard side?

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11 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

It’s pretty clear when you watch the video from the first day, two people go one way then one goes the other after every tack and gybe.

Brad is stuck in this is what we’re doing so it must be right mode.

does everyone remember when Artemis were going to have all their crew on a central pod on the AC72 because it would take to long to run from one side to the other....

Prada have a DOG they are doing everything to tip the odds in there favour and it's not really working out for them.
How embarrising you fund the event make the trophy for it and come dead last....

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3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Make sense to have two helmsman.  The current fire drill just is not a good idea.  

Having guys cross before each turn lets the other team know what you are doing.  

Can you image them faking a turn?  Two guys run across, wait, and then run back across, .....  then run back across (oh wait, double fake...)

That boat is not designed to have sailors crossing sides.  The aero drag of having three men standing up on the deck has got to be much worse than the gain they get from enclosing the crew area.   They are just doing this now to learn how to sail the new boat (same reason they used the old foils).  Once they feel comfortable with the new boat and systems they will train in the second helmsman and not move crew from side to side.

Isn't that what they said in the last AC and ETNZ proved them wrong?

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14 hours ago, zillafreak said:

OK kids. How about a little fun! Why dont you tell daddy what you see at the back of the boat on the hull by the traveller at these exact times. Blow it up full screen!

1:35 to 1:41

1:48 to 1:52

2:00

3:50 to 3:53

4:47 to 4:50

Is Daddy seeing things? Too much tequila? (or vodka or bourbon or wine, depending) Are there ghosts on the boat? A Russian projector beaming fake news in the video? "absolutely nothing"? Just asking

Curious minds want to know :)

 

71cyAJfBxoL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

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6 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Enough said..! No windows..? They know something we don't..? LOL  If they have 2 helmsman do they need windows?

Didn’t another team launch without windows?  Perhaps they’re best positioned after some sailing?

But you may well be right.  Pete said in an interview with Live Sail Die(?) that we’d have to wait until the Xmas cup to get a true glimpse of how they intended to sail her.

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15 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Didn’t another team launch without windows?  Perhaps they’re best positioned after some sailing?

But you may well be right.  Pete said in an interview with Live Sail Die(?) that we’d have to wait until the Xmas cup to get a true glimpse of how they intended to sail her.

Makes you wonder if they don’t have a camera system à la Hugo Boss .... or a screen that shows a graphic of where the other boat is .... or both 

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3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Make sense to have two helmsman.  The current fire drill just is not a good idea.  

Having guys cross before each turn lets the other team know what you are doing.  

Can you image them faking a turn?  Two guys run across, wait, and then run back across, .....  then run back across (oh wait, double fake...)

That boat is not designed to have sailors crossing sides.  The aero drag of having three men standing up on the deck has got to be much worse than the gain they get from enclosing the crew area.   They are just doing this now to learn how to sail the new boat (same reason they used the old foils).  Once they feel comfortable with the new boat and systems they will train in the second helmsman and not move crew from side to side.

Don't they swap side after the manoeuvre? Isn't the first 'tell' the windward foil drop. The AC50s had the post manoeuvre helmsman cross first, but that was when they had no one too leeward. On the AC75s there's already someone on the other side. So no need to send anyone ahead of the turn. 

I do think having those few second it takes to cross, hand over controls then get back in the rhythm isn't ideal though. Plus, the guy grabbing the stick presumably isn't doing whatever they were previously doing. 

Is the view from the windward side that much better that it pays to have two helmsmen though? I would have thought having the tactician, flight controller, main trimmer all pretty near would help too. Just so they're seeing and hearing the same things. In which case how may of those swap sides too? Or is the communication system good enough that they can be anywhere? After all, you can't duplicate all these rolls on both side surely? Someone needs to be grinding?!

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Make sense to have two helmsman.  The current fire drill just is not a good idea.  

Having guys cross before each turn lets the other team know what you are doing.  

Can you image them faking a turn?  Two guys run across, wait, and then run back across, .....  then run back across (oh wait, double fake...)

That boat is not designed to have sailors crossing sides.  The aero drag of having three men standing up on the deck has got to be much worse than the gain they get from enclosing the crew area.   They are just doing this now to learn how to sail the new boat (same reason they used the old foils).  Once they feel comfortable with the new boat and systems they will train in the second helmsman and not move crew from side to side.

First thing I thought of when seeing those cockpits. Would be a major hassle climbing in and out. Looks like a tight space. Seems odd to have two helmsmen (I'm sorry Editor I mean Helmspeople -_-) but would guess ETNZ have it well thought out (?)

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4 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

That boat is not designed to have sailors crossing sides.  The aero drag of having three men standing up on the deck has got to be much worse than the gain they get from enclosing the crew area.   They are just doing this now to learn how to sail the new boat (same reason they used the old foils).  Once they feel comfortable with the new boat and systems they will train in the second helmsman and not move crew from side to side.

And this boat WAS designed to have sailors crossing sides?

170625_AC35_GMR_7632-3-1-1024x682.jpg

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29 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Don't they swap side after the manoeuvre? Isn't the first 'tell' the windward foil drop. The AC50s had the post manoeuvre helmsman cross first, but that was when they had no one too leeward. On the AC75s there's already someone on the other side. So no need to send anyone ahead of the turn. 

I do think having those few second it takes to cross, hand over controls then get back in the rhythm isn't ideal though. Plus, the guy grabbing the stick presumably isn't doing whatever they were previously doing. 

Is the view from the windward side that much better that it pays to have two helmsmen though? I would have thought having the tactician, flight controller, main trimmer all pretty near would help too. Just so they're seeing and hearing the same things. In which case how may of those swap sides too? Or is the communication system good enough that they can be anywhere? After all, you can't duplicate all these rolls on both side surely? Someone needs to be grinding?!

 

 

 

Ineos yesterday didn’t look to have anyone swapping sides, ok I didn’t see every second of their day, however, several videos didn’t reveal anything different. 

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I think it’s safe to say you need both a skipper and main trimmer on the windward side.  Seeing the breeze will be important.  Having a skipper to leeward would be useful too, often.

@The_Alchemist, you talk about training up a skipper.  If you’re going to avoid crossing entirely then you’d need to train a main trimmer too. In looking at this video, at the tack at around 2:30, it struck me that the name on the back of the person who moves to leeward is too long to be “TUKE”.  He’s a bit long and gangly for Blair too.  Perhaps Josh Junior, another accomplished skipper (albeit in a non-apparent wind type boat)? They’re also not very good at it.  I understand they had a full sized mock up for their AC50.  You’d think they’d have the same for the AC75 and that they’d be pretty smooth already.

Then I remembered the padded jackets from 2017.  Given all the kit these guys are wearing (helmets, earmuffs, glasses etc) it’s pretty hard to distinguish between.  These guys may well have been disguising the fact that they’ve been training up two (or more) skippers and main trimmers for the past year.  This would enable them to avoid swapping sides and giving the team greater resilience (in the event of injury, retirement or defection to another team after this round).  Having said that, to do it without the other teams noticing may have been very difficult.

Brad Butterworth said on Thursday that LR are using two skippers.  It makes sense that other teams will have been looking at the same idea.

 

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13 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Brad Butterworth said on Thursday that LR are using two skippers.

Would you believe everything Butterworth was saying?

Also if you assume that the Helmsman is not at the rear of the crew pod but further forward perhaps the middle then you could have a situation where it is only two people interchanging not three.  Now which two positions would need to change?  The disadvantage of not switching sides is that you reduce the specialisation in other crew roles.  Do you have two helmsmen, two flight controllers and two wing controllers?  Six out of the 11?

You will also have command issues - can you see Ben Ainslie at the peak of battle handing over control to another helmsman just because they are on a different tack?

 

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45 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Don't they swap side after the manoeuvre? Isn't the first 'tell' the windward foil drop. The AC50s had the post manoeuvre helmsman cross first, but that was when they had no one too leeward. On the AC75s there's already someone on the other side. So no need to send anyone ahead of the turn. 

I do think having those few second it takes to cross, hand over controls then get back in the rhythm isn't ideal though. Plus, the guy grabbing the stick presumably isn't doing whatever they were previously doing. 

Is the view from the windward side that much better that it pays to have two helmsmen though? I would have thought having the tactician, flight controller, main trimmer all pretty near would help too. Just so they're seeing and hearing the same things. In which case how may of those swap sides too? Or is the communication system good enough that they can be anywhere? After all, you can't duplicate all these rolls on both side surely? Someone needs to be grinding?!

 

 

 

You are right, right after the turn two swap over and than another goes back over.  my bad..

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2 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

His point is that unless the outer strut fixings and the top bearing are geometrically aligned, the rudder needs to rotate in a different way resulting in a heavier system.  Because the struts are fixed directly to the top of the rudder, and move with it as it changes angle, there's no need for additional strengthening, tracks etc.  It's a very efficient structural system

ETNZ are able to utilise this approach because their stern is flat, the outer ends of the strut are lower and they are able to geometrically align the three points.

If you put aside the personal attacks, constant misinterpretation of sarcasm, and unchecked misogyny, it's observations like this that make this place great.  Thanks @gungabow

Thank You sir

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28 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Would you believe everything Butterworth was saying?

Also if you assume that the Helmsman is not at the rear of the crew pod but further forward perhaps the middle then you could have a situation where it is only two people interchanging not three.  Now which two positions would need to change?  The disadvantage of not switching sides is that you reduce the specialisation in other crew roles.  Do you have two helmsmen, two flight controllers and two wing controllers?  Six out of the 11?

You will also have command issues - can you see Ben Ainslie at the peak of battle handing over control to another helmsman just because they are on a different tack?

 

The helm is in the middle of the pod, if we believe what we’re seeing in the ETNZ video above.  Your note about reduced specialisation is right, hence my point above about having to train others up.

If any of the four skippers has the ability to get over himself and his own ego, Pete would be my pick.

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2 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

If any of the four skippers has the ability to get over himself and his own ego, Pete would be my pick.

In the last cup Burling was just the helmsman - Ashby was Skipper.

As for having two helmsman - why dilute the effectiveness of the best in the world when it isn't necessary?  We are seeing in the video's that crew are switching sides easily and effectively.

As for Butterworth - good luck with a bunch of Italians have two helmsmen!

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18 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

In the last cup Burling was just the helmsman - Ashby was Skipper.

Cool.  Semantics, I love this game!

18 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

As for having two helmsman - why dilute the effectiveness of the best in the world when it isn't necessary?  We are seeing in the video's that crew are switching sides easily and effectively.

I don’t know.  We might find out I guess.

18 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

As for Butterworth - good luck with a bunch of Italians have two helmsmen!

It was the Australian I was thinking about actually.

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

I think it’s safe to say you need both a skipper and main trimmer on the windward side.  Seeing the breeze will be important.  Having a skipper to leeward would be useful too, often.

@The_Alchemist, you talk about training up a skipper.  If you’re going to avoid crossing entirely then you’d need to train a main trimmer too. In looking at this video, at the tack at around 2:30, it struck me that the name on the back of the person who moves to leeward is too long to be “TUKE”.  He’s a bit long and gangly for Blair too.  Perhaps Josh Junior, another accomplished skipper (albeit in a non-apparent wind type boat)? They’re also not very good at it.  I understand they had a full sized mock up for their AC50.  You’d think they’d have the same for the AC75 and that they’d be pretty smooth already.

Then I remembered the padded jackets from 2017.  Given all the kit these guys are wearing (helmets, earmuffs, glasses etc) it’s pretty hard to distinguish between.  These guys may well have been disguising the fact that they’ve been training up two (or more) skippers and main trimmers for the past year.  This would enable them to avoid swapping sides and giving the team greater resilience (in the event of injury, retirement or defection to another team after this round).  Having said that, to do it without the other teams noticing may have been very difficult.

Brad Butterworth said on Thursday that LR are using two skippers.  It makes sense that other teams will have been looking at the same idea.

 

Very slick :)

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Isn't there supposed to be 11 crew?

It is really hard to see more than five at any one time.  So those grinders are sure as hell damn low in the boat.

Also those that are switching sides are in the middle of the pod and don't move until after the tack.  So crew movements don't signal anything.

I like how they cross over and then disappear into the pods. The guy who crosses back disappears into the pod out of sight altogether. I wonder if the Challengers have to option of modifying their pods to drop their grinders lower out of the wind...

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3 minutes ago, Indio said:

I like how they cross over and then disappear into the pods. The guy who crosses back disappears into the pod out of sight altogether. I wonder if the Challengers have to option of modifying their pods to drop their grinders lower out of the wind...

Yes I concur.  They really worked on this in the last cup.  LOL in reference to the stupid click bait article about the composition of the NZ team the work was/is done by a young female!!

I think the other boats have the option of adding higher pods BUT their deck is not as clean as ETNZ's.  In my opinion once again ETNZ has found a solution that optimises control systems and reduces windage.  The clean deck and the optimised pods seem to have been designed as a whole package.

Every time I count the crew I can't find 11 - barely get past 5 at best count.....are they not sailing yet with a full crew?

Also the pods make it harder for the spies to work out what they are actually doing.

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The disadvantage for me would be the loss of whatever. Evidently they think the people cannot do their job as well on the wrong side. But as has been side, during the transition there must be a drop off in some functions. Maybe for 10s. Which may seem short but when you hit the boundary every 60-120 seconds it's quite a high percentage. And what if there is a tacking dual?

For those that think Ben wouldn't hand over control, I remind you that he won the AC without his hand on the wheel, so he clearly would. 

 

NZ must think it's worth it, but swapping 2 each time does seem a lot. Plus the risk of falling, or ending up more than 1.35m in front of the mast and getting a penalty or dsq

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10 hours ago, terrafirma said:

From the front page The EDTypical Anti AC Bullshit from the ED, so does ETNZ need to go and find colored people for the sake of it? 

We’re likely to see nearly the same thing with the other three (or is it two?) America’s Cup teams, but for christ’s sake, it is not possible to have less people of color on this massive team. And that is because there are none. And would you like to attempt to count how many women there are? No need, we did it for you: The answer is one. As in token. Or maybe there are more, but were told not to worry their pretty little heads over a silly photo op…

Really, this is the message you wish to send? If you aren’t white and don’t have a penis, then fuck off? There was no one of equal talent otherwise? It is total bullshit, insulting to millions (well it would be millions if anybody really gave a fuck about the AC, which they don’t), is a poor look, and sends exactly the wrong message.

Looks pretty racist and misogynist to us. Apparently they didn’t get the message about diversity.

 

The ED didn't look hard enough "I stopped counting after the 3rd Asian person"

team-white-knights1-scaled.jpg

Un-fucking-believable.

Sailing as a sport, is indeed very male and very white. It's not a choice, it's just how it is. Rugby League is a Pacific and Maori sport on the whole, you don't hear people complaining about how "brown" it is. Motorsport in New Zealand is very male and very white too and so what?

I have never looked along the rail and thought we need some diversification on the boat. Anyone is welcome, it's just that white dudes keep showing up. 

I would think Emirates Team New Zealand hire their staff based on merit, cultural fit and what the person can bring to the table. I doubt they keep count of the non-white to white ratio 

30% of New Zealanders are immigrants. Almost all of us here are the sons, grandsons or great-grandsons of immigrants. (Or daughters). 

Next time a brown skinned person turns up at the club, I'll be sure to ask them how they feel about the article.

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4 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

His point is that unless the outer strut fixings and the top bearing are geometrically aligned, the rudder needs to rotate in a different way resulting in a heavier system.  Because the struts are fixed directly to the top of the rudder, and move with it as it changes angle, there's no need for additional strengthening, tracks etc.  It's a very efficient structural system

ETNZ are able to utilise this approach because their stern is flat, the outer ends of the strut are lower and they are able to geometrically align the three points.

If you put aside the personal attacks, constant misinterpretation of sarcasm, and unchecked misogyny, it's observations like this that make this place great.  Thanks @gungabow

I suppose you meant to say: “the outer strut fixings and the bottom bearing are geometrically aligned”. Now, I agree ETNZ’s solution is elegant, but even with the flat transom the three points do not appear to be aligned - you want the bottom/main/thrust  rudder bearing as low as possible. Not a problem though, since all that’s needed is a sliding/pivoting collar at the inner end of the struts, said collar acting as the rudder top bearing

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9 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

TeRethuai.jpg.102fcd3f7c16eb9323322e267bd6d4b4.jpg

Definitely the largest amount of clean deck space around the sails. Biggest distance for the crew to cross as well - not that I think that will be an issue. From this point of view she looks a lot different to the other boats.

Impressive on many fronts. I also like the way that they have minimised and streamlined the aft sections and trailing edge whilst keeping enough volume and stiffness aft for gunwhale back stays and depth in the middle for rudder bearing loads.....

There has to be massive bending and torsional loads for such a big boat balancing on two points.....

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Impressive reading, if you’re a kiwi.

So according to RG there is some sort of "angled boom". I think it is what I thought was battens and Mozzy thought was creases. I noticed on the tow back there was no sign of it - they're keeping it hidden.

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11 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

So according to RG there is some sort of "angled boom". I think it is what I thought was battens and Mozzy thought was creases. I noticed on the tow back there was no sign of it - they're keeping it hidden.

Or is the boom under the deck and the "angled boom" is the boom following the shape of the deck?

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32 minutes ago, Doot Master Flex said:

Or is the boom under the deck and the "angled boom" is the boom following the shape of the deck?

That would be a vang but one from the top. Do you really need a boom if you're only adjusting the relative sail angle over 15° or so? 

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23 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

Do you really need a boom if you're only adjusting the relative sail angle over 15° or so? 

You're right, but it's not really a boom in the traditional sense. Seems to be more of a main foot camber inducer, associated with the twin independent outhaulers, and variable leach tensioners.

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4 hours ago, Salty Seacock said:

Un-fucking-believable.

Sailing as a sport, is indeed very male and very white. It's not a choice, it's just how it is. Rugby League is a Pacific and Maori sport on the whole, you don't hear people complaining about how "brown" it is. Motorsport in New Zealand is very male and very white too and so what?

I have never looked along the rail and thought we need some diversification on the boat. Anyone is welcome, it's just that white dudes keep showing up. 

I would think Emirates Team New Zealand hire their staff based on merit, cultural fit and what the person can bring to the table. I doubt they keep count of the non-white to white ratio 

30% of New Zealanders are immigrants. Almost all of us here are the sons, grandsons or great-grandsons of immigrants. (Or daughters). 

Next time a brown skinned person turns up at the club, I'll be sure to ask them how they feel about the article.

You of all people commenting on diversity. Fuck you.

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I was a bit unsure of the design of NZ2 initially, but it is really growing on me. The aero deck layout seems like a good solution to keep drag to a minimum.

However, I'm guessing that foil shape, flight control and sail control are going to be more important in the end. 

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

I don't think it is. You can see some structure within the skins down near the foot.

10,000th post Mr Rock. Congratulations!

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12 minutes ago, D_Dog said:

I was a bit unsure of the design of NZ2 initially, but it is really growing on me. The aero deck layout seems like a good solution to keep drag to a minimum.

However, I'm guessing that foil shape, flight control and sail control are going to be more important in the end. 

The Deck and hull shape are not only low drag, they're also lifting profile for a wing in ground effect Aerofoil which probably produces a significant amount of lift requiring less foil in the water - or better said less flap angle to get airborne - and stay airborne 

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1 minute ago, kiwi39 said:

The Deck and hull shape are not only low drag, they're also lifting profile for a wing in ground effect Aerofoil which probably produces a significant amount of lift requiring less foil in the water - or better said less flap angle to get airborne - and stay airborne 

Yeah, for sure. Everything effects everything else, so how all the elements work together will be key. 

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4 hours ago, barfy said:

^^

-one boat program

-launch date specified a year ago

Just two pretty hard points to silence some of the rabble

Yes, but he also said the design was completed after they had sailed and learned from NZ B1.  Which also means that they had seen all of the other B1's before the design was complete.  So design inspiration from the competitors B1's is also very possible.

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11 minutes ago, kiwi39 said:

The Deck and hull shape are not only low drag, they're also lifting profile for a wing in ground effect Aerofoil which probably produces a significant amount of lift requiring less foil in the water - or better said less flap angle to get airborne - and stay airborne 

Just as the other B2's

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9 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Just as the other B2's

Agreed .

I think the kiwi design is the most obvious and cleanest of them in that regard.

That notwithstanding I'm sure the others have done their sums in this regard - and Its interesting that they've all come up with different shapes (although not wildly so)  to achieve the same thing.

 

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6 hours ago, uflux said:

So the wide keel is not necessarily designed to give a skipping action off the water (which it could), but it is to meet the volume requirements and act as a canoe bottom (writer says you can hear the water slapping under the hull when it is just sitting still).  The wide and flat stern gives the hull stability when gaining speed to get up on the foils.  The hull heels slightly and dips one edge into the water more like the two narrow hulls of a cat.  Thus giving less drag and greater acceleration than just a flat hull without the wide keel.  The concave bow brings air down under the hull and helps with pushing the bow up.  This is a major improvement to the B1 design.

790782181_ScreenShot2020-11-21at10_45_53PM.png.d8fb3ab23667c44c656a19a3c1331594.png

 

The keel also allows them to get closer to the water and develop end platting.

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It's early days but I am liking B2 a lot. In BDA ETNZs wing had quite different internal and external controls to everyone else, and already they seem to have quite different lower main controls, perhaps to maximise power down low. The upper controls if any are invisible for now but I'm sure they have something going on up top, as it needs powered up then depowered rapidly when up to speed. They also seem the only boat with mast bend or prebend. They have the most aero Hull. In BDA they had the best foil and flight control system, I expect similar innovations happening this time. Rudder design has attracted comment above. Finally, RG was somewhat impressed at their first foil in 5 knots while Ineos was still in displacement with a zero. Seems optimised for light conditions perhaps with an eye to calmer autumn weather, just like in BDA.....

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I really think the concave bows of both NZ and AM are major design advantages.  NZ follows it up with "air channels" under the boat and AM has similar "channels" but not as pronounce (more rounded into the shape).  UK has similar "air channels" but not concave bow to force the air down.

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Just now, The_Alchemist said:

The keel also allows them to get closer to the water and develop end platting.

You saw the way they were flying in their first sail. Very low to the water trying to seal the pressure differential. Only Ineos seem to have the shape to replicate this, but their flight control hasn't quite nailed it consistently, from the footage we've seen. The low flying from Te Rehutai, with the foil tip still breaking, looks like a pretty nice mode.

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24 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

Finally, RG was somewhat impressed at their first foil in 5 knots while Ineos was still in displacement with a zero.

RG forgot to mention that, at the same time, LR was comfortably foiling with their #1 up.

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

Yes, but he also said the design was completed after they had sailed and learned from NZ B1.  Which also means that they had seen all of the other B1's before the design was complete.  So design inspiration from the competitors B1's is also very possible.

Absolutely. And probably true for all teams.

I was just pinning my two predictions..

One boat program,

On time delivery of b2.

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

So the wide keel is not necessarily designed to give a skipping action off the water (which it could), but it is to meet the volume requirements and act as a canoe bottom (writer says you can hear the water slapping under the hull when it is just sitting still).  The wide and flat stern gives the hull stability when gaining speed to get up on the foils.  The hull heels slightly and dips one edge into the water more like the two narrow hulls of a cat.  Thus giving less drag and greater acceleration than just a flat hull without the wide keel.  The concave bow brings air down under the hull and helps with pushing the bow up.  This is a major improvement to the B1 design.

790782181_ScreenShot2020-11-21at10_45_53PM.png.d8fb3ab23667c44c656a19a3c1331594.png

 

The keel also allows them to get closer to the water and develop end platting.

Other ergonomic benefits too.

7F187733-2AB1-4F48-B1D6-C9CD094C45E5.jpeg

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2 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Yes, but he also said the design was completed after they had sailed and learned from NZ B1.  Which also means that they had seen all of the other B1's before the design was complete.  So design inspiration from the competitors B1's is also very possible.

"design inspiration" only applies if you're designing clothes - or cobblestones!! In such an accurate science-driven discipline as AC yacht design, the notion of "design inspiration" is an insult to the highly qualified designers using physics and powerful computational tools to bring to life their creations.

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30 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Other ergonomic benefits too.

7F187733-2AB1-4F48-B1D6-C9CD094C45E5.jpeg

Precisely.......

The only “improvement” I could see for NZB2 is to make is a proper flat ski bottom. An easy modification. My VPP says that the dynamic lift on my boat’s flat bottom at 10 knots lifts the bow by 125 mm and shifts LCG aft by 836 mm on a 9.5 metre 970 kg hull, so here are some serious numbers possible on a dynamic skiing AC75 with much higher speeds.

UKB2 messed up their fuselage  underside by having that strange transition zone, which might reduce waterline beam and WSA but must detract from any tunnel hull effect?

A0DBB933-F296-408F-8B1F-D616CA4A4B80.jpeg

F2BA6998-290C-4633-85EA-F022954FC045.jpeg

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On 11/20/2020 at 3:08 PM, weta27 said:

boom1.jpg

Why yes Weta I do see the drainage flap. Why did you redact your post? My my sure looks like its just below the EXACT SAME SPOT  I have been hallucinating about eh? See that trapezoidal area above the drainage slot? My oh my how that looks like the same "reflection" on the other side :lol:

1704495029_ScreenShot2020-11-19at8_31_42PM.png.71df49b263e7abedcae912889960390c.png

 

109804541_ScreenShot2020-11-21at4_02_12PM.png.2a065725ebcb0c9ced51d5c9d6e5f733.png

I suppose this is a reflection too:lol: :lol::lol:  Someones square butthole perhaps? :o:D

Do you perhaps think my hallucination has something to do with the traveller and the drainage slot? Oooohhh spooky... :ph34r:  

Wahdya think doubters?  

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24 minutes ago, Indio said:

"design inspiration" only applies if you're designing clothes - or cobblestones!! In such an accurate science-driven discipline as AC yacht design, the notion of "design inspiration" is an insult to the highly qualified designers using physics and powerful computational tools to bring to life their creations.

It is not really copying when you see your competition design something badly then you implement it correctly yourself. :rolleyes:

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4 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

Why yes Weta I do see the drainage flap. Why did you redact your post? My my sure looks like its just below the EXACT SAME SPOT  I have been hallucinating about eh? See that trapezoidal area above the drainage slot? My oh my how that looks like the same "reflection" on the other side :lol:

1704495029_ScreenShot2020-11-19at8_31_42PM.png.71df49b263e7abedcae912889960390c.png

 

109804541_ScreenShot2020-11-21at4_02_12PM.png.2a065725ebcb0c9ced51d5c9d6e5f733.png

I suppose this is a reflection too:lol: :lol::lol:  Someones square butthole perhaps? :o:D

Do you perhaps think my hallucination has something to do with the traveller and the drainage slot? Oooohhh spooky... :ph34r:  

Wahdya think doubters?  

I’m still looking for a patch....has anyone seen a patch??... no??...anyone?? :P

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