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9 hours ago, uflux said:

It is not really copying when you see your competition design something badly then you implement it correctly yourself. :rolleyes:

It is if you never thought of it before.  You may have just developed a better understanding of the concept.  
 

It happens all of the time in product development and patents.  If fact, that is part of the purpose of a patent is to share the knowledge in exchange for exclusive rights for a period in time.  Progress comes from making iterations and improvements on prior designs and adapting ideas from other seemingly unrelated concepts.

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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

After many hours of consideration, a lot of in-depth research on the SA technical threads, extensive computational modelling and a few quick & dirty minutes in Photoshop, I have produced this anal

They towed out around 11am and the breeze was light and puffy to start with. Foiled down the Channel and headed out to the Bays. The breeze started to build around midday and they got some long runs i

Posted Images

9 hours ago, zillafreak said:

Why yes Weta I do see the drainage flap. Why did you redact your post? My my sure looks like its just below the EXACT SAME SPOT  I have been hallucinating about eh? See that trapezoidal area above the drainage slot? My oh my how that looks like the same "reflection" on the other side :lol:

1704495029_ScreenShot2020-11-19at8_31_42PM.png.71df49b263e7abedcae912889960390c.png

 

109804541_ScreenShot2020-11-21at4_02_12PM.png.2a065725ebcb0c9ced51d5c9d6e5f733.png

I suppose this is a reflection too:lol: :lol::lol:  Someones square butthole perhaps? :o:D

Do you perhaps think my hallucination has something to do with the traveller and the drainage slot? Oooohhh spooky... :ph34r:  

Wahdya think doubters?  

Ok, it is an access panel to clean the shit’r.  They anticipate another nose dive and want to be able to hose it down to clean it out.  They can’t afford to scrap it like they had to with the other boat.... :D

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I wouldn’t say zero signs.  How about the new mainsail not having any windows when all of the others have had.  They new crew pit is very high and not easy to climb out of (the crew holes on the AC45 were much less).  These are clues or possible signs.   And just because they swapped crew on the first sail of a new boat doesn’t guarantee that they will continue to do it after they gain more confidence with the boat.

We will find out in the next few weeks.

 

sorry, I quoted the wrong message.  This is in response to no signs of crew swapping.

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46 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

It is if you never thought of it before.  You may have just developed a better understanding of the concept.  
 

It happens all of the time in product development and patents.  If fact, that is part of the purpose of a patent is to share the knowledge in exchange for exclusive rights for a period in time.  Progress comes from making iterations and improvements on prior designs and adapting ideas from other seemingly unrelated concepts.

Given the compressed time line it’s amazing ineos hit on one of the key features that appeared on NZ B2

only to discard it after practical experience of it

best hope the reasons they ditched the extreme version of it don’t become an issue for team kiwi. 

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10 hours ago, zillafreak said:

Why yes Weta I do see the drainage flap. Why did you redact your post? My my sure looks like its just below the EXACT SAME SPOT  I have been hallucinating about eh? See that trapezoidal area above the drainage slot? My oh my how that looks like the same "reflection" on the other side :lol:

1704495029_ScreenShot2020-11-19at8_31_42PM.png.71df49b263e7abedcae912889960390c.png

 

109804541_ScreenShot2020-11-21at4_02_12PM.png.2a065725ebcb0c9ced51d5c9d6e5f733.png

I suppose this is a reflection too:lol: :lol::lol:  Someones square butthole perhaps? :o:D

Do you perhaps think my hallucination has something to do with the traveller and the drainage slot? Oooohhh spooky... :ph34r:  

Wahdya think doubters?  

Isn't it just a reflection of that floating bus stop RH pointed out awhile back?

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2 hours ago, nav said:

- Boomless: Am I the only one seeing what appears to be the obvious end of a boom sticking out the back of the sail? Sure there is no sign of it printing through the skins but I'm not convinced they haven't continued with the 'disjointed' boom from B1, it didn't always show from the side either.

- Clews: Surely everyone is controlling both clews independently.

I don't see that boom, just a clew adjustment. 

The double take off they are talking about it vertical displacement of the two take off points, not one for each skin. So you can change the sheeting angle dramatically. I highlighted on the other page the difference in the clew control in comparison the INEOS set up for their boomless sail. 

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11 hours ago, zillafreak said:

and asking the (apparently drunken and/or medicated) gallery what they think of it.

There IS a reflection in the video, which I also see in a bunch of my photos taken while she was sitting on the cradle at the launch party. I was also on the bridge just along from Mike, who took that video, so I was picking up the same reflections. But it changes shape in my shots and moves position just as the boat was lifted out of the cradle.

As the boat was lifted it was turned and here is the best angle to show (1) how reflective that surface is (the yellow lines are the lifting crane), and (2) that the area in question above the flap is pristine flat and unblemished.

Likewise, I have over 30 shots of the other side, and yes, some of those show reflections in that spot, but they are different shapes and they move around. Many shots show nothing, just a clean flat surface, kind of like this:

patch1.jpg

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Whether it is a reflection or something who cares.  I'm in the camp of it's a reflection.  Weta27 has seen more of these boats than anyone else on AC Anarchy and what's more has taken pictures reaching what one would call a forensic level.  So if he says "it's a reflection" I'd back him over zillafreak who is just analysing selective pictures and videos at low resolution.

Now back to more important things that do make a difference.  The innovative accumulation of innovations in hull shape, the foils and foil arm differences and the mainsail controls have delivered a package that in 6 knots of wind using a #1 can get up and foiling at 23 knots and manoeuvre at a high standard on day one.  That is impressive regardless of your country bias and I would say the Challengers without exception have wide open eyes and mouths.

To me it looks like on Day one of the new boat ETNZ are already at or beyond the level of the others who have been testing for weeks.  So much for all the negativity around delays and leaving it too late etc etc. 

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15 hours ago, minimumfuss said:

It's early days but I am liking B2 a lot. In BDA ETNZs wing had quite different internal and external controls to everyone else, and already they seem to have quite different lower main controls, perhaps to maximise power down low. The upper controls if any are invisible for now but I'm sure they have something going on up top, as it needs powered up then depowered rapidly when up to speed. They also seem the only boat with mast bend or prebend. They have the most aero Hull. In BDA they had the best foil and flight control system, I expect similar innovations happening this time. Rudder design has attracted comment above. Finally, RG was somewhat impressed at their first foil in 5 knots while Ineos was still in displacement with a zero. Seems optimised for light conditions perhaps with an eye to calmer autumn weather, just like in BDA.....

Their wing control was years ahead of anyone else in Bermuda also. It still appears that their wing control is superior to any of the challengers by a margin.

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43 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

Their wing control was years ahead of anyone else in Bermuda also. It still appears that their wing control is superior to any of the challengers by a margin.

That’s where I anticipate their advantage being this time too, with GA’s input a big part of it.

Another advantage ETNZ has, is being how in March the conditions they can target for will be different from what the Challs have to target, to win into March. ‘All around’ sails and foils is not  going to win anything, you have hot-spot and then get lucky on your calls to a degree. 

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16 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

That’s where I anticipate their advantage being this time too, with GA’s input a big part of it.

Another advantage ETNZ has, is being how in March the conditions they can target for will be different from what the Challs have to target, to win into March. ‘All around’ sails and foils is not  going to win anything, you have hot-spot and then get lucky on your calls to a degree. 

The La Niña will change the usual summer conditions in Auckland so the weather could be anything in March. Perfect cyclone window

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16 minutes ago, uflux said:

The La Niña will change the usual summer conditions in Auckland so the weather could be anything in March. Perfect cyclone window

Nup.  La Nina MAY possibly bring increase cyclone events - but they are short and sharp and don't carry into March normally.  If a cyclone arrives then they won't be sailing.  If you check a recent La Nina event for Auckland weather e.g. the 2011-12 Summer you will find that the March winds weren't above average however they tended to more East when normally they are Westerly.  If there is an effect it will be during the Challenger series.

https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/new-zealand/auckland/historic?month=3&year=2012

Generally the effect of a La Nina is on rain and wind direction not speed.  As the seas are warmer the more easterly component brings more rain and humidity.

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23 minutes ago, uflux said:

The La Niña will change the usual summer conditions in Auckland so the weather could be anything in March. Perfect cyclone window

Yes, read that too, agreed there will should be some moderating effect. Am just hoping there won’t be many races in bizarrely low conditions, and with fluke puffs and shifts across the course. That situation basically negates much of the design and build of these boats’ budgets. 
 

SF was about the most perfect wind machine in recent AC cycles. Bermuda was (yes, surprisingly) at the very low end of the predicted conditions but it was at least a steady breeze. 
 

I remember watching Seattle’s OneWorld race against Oracle on the Gulf in 2003 and how heartbroken I was when OneWorld got suddenly stranded, Oracle picked up a fluke off Rangitoto. It’s not the ideal way that design competitions should be won. 

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52 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:


 

I remember watching Seattle’s OneWorld race against Oracle on the Gulf in 2003 and how heartbroken I was when OneWorld got suddenly stranded, Oracle picked up a fluke off Rangitoto. It’s not the ideal way that design competitions should be won. 

Please edit your post and delete this so it is never spoken of again....

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11 minutes ago, Indio said:

Interesting to see no grinders involved - so must be all battery-powered hydraulic systems for the foil arms?

look closer, at least one on each side grinding at different times. STB in the glasses, port with the hat

but yes the foil arm up/down is battery powered so these grinders are simulating something else

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9 minutes ago, Indio said:

Interesting to see no grinders involved - so must be all battery-powered hydraulic systems for the foil arms?

Also where PB & BT are positioned.... If I have learnt anything from these guys over the years, the side swapping act in front of everyone could be a well rehearsed joke.  

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16 minutes ago, WakaNZ said:

Also where PB & BT are positioned.... If I have learnt anything from these guys over the years, the side swapping act in front of everyone could be a well rehearsed joke.  

Could be for the AC Anarchists' benefit :P

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1 minute ago, Woolfy said:

Anyone see where they're headed? Hopefully the back paddock, I'll be there in about 45 minutes on the car ferry.:P

Both teams have (BAR and ETNZ) headed around North Head and up the coast somewhere, at which point I lost sight of them.

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With regard to crew positioning. From the footage we've seen, after a manoeuver, two guys cross from the leeward side. Seconds later a single guy crosses from the windward side. This looks to be consistent. I'm guessing the two who cross back to windward are Burling and Ashby - so their normal position is on the windward side - helming and trimming. Tuke is the single guy going to leeward where he's flying the boat - which makes sense also.

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4 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Tuke is the single guy going to leeward where he's flying the boat - which makes sense also

Tuke could theoretically manage flight without moving as doesn't he just chase numbers?  But the reason for him crossing I believe is to convey wind and other outputs to Burling and Ashby.  After all that is what makes Tuke and Burling a formidable combination.  There was much play made of the last Cup where the verbal communication (what we were allowed to hear) on ETNZ was a lot less than the other boats.  In my opinion that is because they had specialist roles that require changing sides.

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Just now, Kate short for Bob said:

Tuke could theoretically manage flight without moving as doesn't he just chase numbers? 

In theory yes, but there are 3 guys moving and that seems consistent. Tuke is giving them eyes on the leeward side for puffs etc, whilst being on the side where the foil is submerged seems logical for the flight controller - even if he's just chasing a dot. I think Tuke helms while the other two cross.

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On 11/20/2020 at 10:38 PM, Apterix said:

It looks like a beast and is remarkably well dialled in for the first day on the water.  Not feeling quite so glum about initial impressions now.  

Yep. Muffin Top looks pretty good for her first sail. 

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6 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Now back to more important things that do make a difference.  The innovative accumulation of innovations in hull shape, the foils and foil arm differences and the mainsail controls have delivered a package that in 6 knots of wind using a #1 can get up and foiling at 23 knots and manoeuvre at a high standard on day one.  That is impressive regardless of your country bias and I would say the Challengers without exception have wide open eyes and mouths.

To me it looks like on Day one of the new boat ETNZ are already at or beyond the level of the others who have been testing for weeks.  So much for all the negativity around delays and leaving it too late etc etc. 

That says it for me. Very encouraging first impression. Especially after RG's America's Cup Rialto: November 20 - Kiwis throw down the gauntlet  https://www.sail-world.com/news/233299/Americas-Cup-Rialto-Nov-20-Kiwis-first-sail

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19 hours ago, zillafreak said:

Patch smatch. Whatever the fuck it is. Something is there. 

Maybe just some framing or other structure behind an area with thin or no cores, probably supporting the mainsail track. Maybe even distorts more or less with heat from teh sun. Who knows, I was probably wrong about B1 having a busted hull side.

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34 minutes ago, mikenz2 said:

Looks like some framing there, approx in line with the mainsheet traveler.

P1200174.thumb.JPG.55676dd2e8e3c843ede37e9edbe0f736.JPG

HAHAHAHA, Oh now that's just a hoot isnt it. Why if that doesn't look exactly like the thing that isnt there eh Terrafirma ,fourourselves, Weta, etc etc etc. Smart ass doubters. 

Or maybe you cant see this either? How about if I get out the yellow lines for you.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

Oh now that's just hoot isnt it. Why if that doesn't look exactly like the thing that isnt there eh Terrafirma ,fourourselves, Weta, etc etc etc. Smart ass doubters. 

Or maybe you cant see this either? How about if I get out the yellow lines for you.

Going through my photos, it's only visible in my perfectly square on photos with the sun rising behind me. It disappeared as soon as I got off angle, it's a very shallow feature.

 

P1200189 (2).JPG

P1200367 (2).JPG

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7 minutes ago, mikenz2 said:

Going through my photos, it's only visible in my perfectly square on photos with the sun rising behind me. It disappeared as soon as I got off angle, it's a very shallow feature.

 

P1200189 (2).JPG

P1200367 (2).JPG

Yes that would have to be the case as you just cant see it from so many angles. Awesome work mikenz!

This is the pic from my original post, that so many dickheads made fun of. How incredibly observant I am :D

1067877874_ScreenShot2020-11-19at8_31_03PM.png.03cdcdc59102d40bcef494fc448273b8.png

 

 

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19 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

Well Mikenz went and ruined it for you. Too bad. Now if everyone just shuts the fuck up about it, other than discussing what it is if they care, we're all good.

Its the side of a yacht. Thats what it is. 

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37 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

This is the pic from my original post, that so many dickheads made fun of. How incredibly observant I am

I suggest you don't take up a career in forensic science.  Your "proof" is comparing different sides of the boat.

Suggest you go to arbitration with your findings.  Obviously it makes a huge difference to the speed of the boat.

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3 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Tuke could theoretically manage flight without moving as doesn't he just chase numbers? 

No number chasing. No feeds to instruments that measure "yacht state". Seat of pants and visual input.

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22 hours ago, Indio said:

"design inspiration" only applies if you're designing clothes - or cobblestones!! In such an accurate science-driven discipline as AC yacht design, the notion of "design inspiration" is an insult to the highly qualified designers using physics and powerful computational tools to bring to life their creations.

ha, ha, ha .... if it was totally science driven then all of the boats would look the same.

Design is not limited to fashion, you twit.

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3 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

ha, ha, ha .... if it was totally science driven then all of the boats would look the same.

Design is not limited to fashion, you twit.

This is a very ignorant statement, even by ACA standards:blink:

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14 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Jesus Christ, you really are wrong every time. I thought this was your moment.

We all know thinking isn't your strong point.

It actually IS the side of the yacht. 

But a hater like you will see what he wants to see.

Meanwhile we'll carry on winning.

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22 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

The rod thing running down the leech of the main is interesting. I haven't seen it on the other boats. Maybe this how they're getting so much mast rake?

127031524_5037987319559613_463771689123146853_o.thumb.jpg.724bd819ae97af54d75b0dbb630756a6.jpg

What rod?  (Yellow lines are preferred)

 

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4 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Just when I thought it was safe to come back to this thread I see ZillaFreak is still going on about nothing.!  Someone please shoot him FFS..! DV him do whatever it takes until he get's it.! 

 

when-someone-keeps-05f789c971.jpg

Question for the group:

Is the moment when you feel like you need to correct the spelling in a meme, which has been posted as a complaint about the quality of posts in a forum, the moment when you should just realise you care too much and give in?

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23 minutes ago, uflux said:

The wrinkles in the main and jib cant be helping performance.  I'm kind of surprised they're so prominent, but imagine they'll sort them out at some stage if they are a significant issue.    

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Just now, Ex-yachtie said:

Question for the group:

Is the moment when you feel like you need to correct the spelling in a meme, which has been posted as a complaint about the quality of posts in a forum, the moment when you should just realise you care too much and give in?

Nope  dont give in, otherwise there the winner and your the looser.

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Did this get posted already?

The Mange Olsson Foundation has today announced Peter Burling the 2020 winner of its prestigious Magnus Olsson Prize. Awarded annually to an individual who has made an indelible contribution to the world of sailing, previous recipients include Torben Grael, Sir Ben Ainslie, Stan Honey, Santiago Lange, Grant Dalton and Carolijn Brouwer.

https://emirates-team-new-zealand.americascup.com/en/news/487_PETER-BURLING-RECIPIENT-OF-THE-MAGNUS-OLSSON-PRIZE-2020.html

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26 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Did this get posted already?

The Mange Olsson Foundation has today announced Peter Burling the 2020 winner of its prestigious Magnus Olsson Prize. Awarded annually to an individual who has made an indelible contribution to the world of sailing, previous recipients include Torben Grael, Sir Ben Ainslie, Stan Honey, Santiago Lange, Grant Dalton and Carolijn Brouwer.

https://emirates-team-new-zealand.americascup.com/en/news/487_PETER-BURLING-RECIPIENT-OF-THE-MAGNUS-OLSSON-PRIZE-2020.html

What his Torben Grael doing these days?

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4 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Helming on Bertelli’s vintage yacht(s), among other things

 

 

1BBFDCD4-3701-45C2-A5B5-301C8E972723.jpeg

Thanks. Does he have an official/unofficial role in LR-PPP's AC36 campaign, I wonder? He does have a long history with LR.

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2 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Question for the group:

Is the moment when you feel like you need to correct the spelling in a meme, which has been posted as a complaint about the quality of posts in a forum, the moment when you should just realie you care too much and give in?

If you have that much time on your hands please do..! You will sleep better....:D 

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Emirates Team New Zealand looking sleek and slick

View Larger ImageCC201123-209.jpg?fit=1024%2C682&ssl=1

INEOS Team UK, sailing nearby, was noticeably sticky in the light air and during the session, INEOS was at times flying a Code 0, while ETNZ had only their jib up.

“Te Aihe”, ETNZ’s first and more conservative boat, sailed noticeably bow down, however by comparison “Te Retuhai” seemed to fly in a more level attitude, at times heeled slightly to windward with their bustle just kissing the water, a demonstration of precision flight control we will likely see more of.

Curiously, ETNZ was able to pull off the odd dry gybe while we did not witness INEOS complete one manoeuvre. We saw ETNZ under just main and jib pop up onto the foils a couple of times while INEOS had to be towed up each time.

https://www.livesaildie.com/emirates-team-new-zealand-looking-sleek-and-slick/

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Looking at NZB2’s T foil and it’s clean single full width flap/aileron makes you wonder if that is a better set up than the gull wing approach, which might have theoretical advantages, but you lose flap area and create a lot of turbulence at each sectional flap/aileron tip?

429A91BA-0787-4312-B593-4D8A74977FD7.jpeg

2DA4CB37-CC53-4E28-93D1-16B4CD7360B8.jpeg

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I've been looking at the sails, and thinking about CEs, considering twist and all that stuff...

Then I looked at the bend of the mast - how do they achieve that, without an inner forestay, and the backstay and forestay anchored at basically the same point on the mast ???

Capture.JPG.05c28d613c8e0afb72eb03332cbc84c9.JPG

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Ken hasn't cottoned on to your sarcasm.....I agree though, the blurb doesn't mean much........Pics say a bit though.

I had, my old man was a sports journalist,  I mourn the loss of the craft daily. 

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So, its fair to say that those who were saying ETNZ had issues, and 5 weeks off the water would put the Kiwi's well behind the other teams were completely wrong - again.

The same argument that came up last time before the AC50 was launched came up again this time after Te Aihe was retired (temporarily).

ETNZ appears to be as polished as the other teams (at least) despite those teams having a good twenty days sailing in their boat 2.

Just because the doors are closed for an extended period of time, does not mean the team isn't making huge strides.

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