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34 minutes ago, thumps said:

The POV of the photos is different, but not different enough to make it look THAT much thicker by camera angle alone.

It is actually. Viewed square on both foils are really thin, and within a gnats dick of being similar in thickness. I'm pretty sure the arms are similar, if not the same length as well.

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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

They towed out around 11am and the breeze was light and puffy to start with. Foiled down the Channel and headed out to the Bays. The breeze started to build around midday and they got some long runs i

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1 hour ago, thumps said:

Long time listener, first time caller... Didn't feel like I had anything to contribute until now, but found this kinda interesting:

Using the images of TNZ foils from @Ex-yachtie I flipped the image of the starboard foil, matched the scale of the photos using the cradle gantry, and aligned the foil tips.  

foil_comparison.gif.4fc48fca4e962f08f5ad9de3dcf2b1af.gif

So it looks like:

  • port foil arm is a decent bit shorter, creating less drag
  • port foil is either significantly thicker or at a different angle of attack from the old starboard foil.  I personally suspect the latter.  The POV of the photos is different, but not different enough to make it look THAT much thicker by camera angle alone.
  • The shape of the 'bulb' part of the foil is more compact on the new port foil.

 

Well done!

Yes, the port foil arm must be shorter to allow for the slight anhedral curve of the foil, and still fit in the "box".

Agree that the bulb appears to be more compact.

Re "thickness" - or AoA - it appears to me that the POV is above the foil plane, which would account for the apparent increase in thickness.

Good method to try to compare the two foils though. :)

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1 hour ago, thumps said:

Long time listener, first time caller... Didn't feel like I had anything to contribute until now, but found this kinda interesting:

Using the images of TNZ foils from @Ex-yachtie I flipped the image of the starboard foil, matched the scale of the photos using the cradle gantry, and aligned the foil tips.  

foil_comparison.gif.4fc48fca4e962f08f5ad9de3dcf2b1af.gif

So it looks like:

  • port foil arm is a decent bit shorter, creating less drag
  • port foil is either significantly thicker or at a different angle of attack from the old starboard foil.  I personally suspect the latter.  The POV of the photos is different, but not different enough to make it look THAT much thicker by camera angle alone.
  • The shape of the 'bulb' part of the foil is more compact on the new port foil.

 

Nice. 
 

I can tell you that both photos were taken at approximately the same height above ground, and as close to square-on as I could, and approximately ~20m away, so I’d suggest that the POV is pretty close (although I recognise that the horizon appears to be at different levels in relation to the foils).

My gauge at the time was that the foils were different thicknesses and I had assumed that was due to the new foil was compensating being a shorter chord.

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18 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Nice. 
 

I can tell you that both photos were taken at approximately the same height above ground, and as close to square-on as I could, and approximately ~20m away, so I’d suggest that the POV is pretty close (although I recognise that the horizon appears to be at different levels in relation to the foils).

My gauge at the time was that the foils were different thicknesses and I had assumed that was due to the new foil was compensating being a shorter chord.

Here is another comparison that shows the same result... again, a slightly off axis, but only by, what... 2 degrees? 

foilsBoth.thumb.gif.91b4e0eb1cd816efe3b7ed4dfba555e3.gif

edit:  image credit to @Zeusproject for this one.

Edited by thumps
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Crew are not allowed to be covered.. it’s not exactly deep dive detail. 

Maybe because I haven’t competed in an AC or RTW if find it interesting and pay attention, when you have been there done that I guess it’s a little dull. 

 

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Both LR and AM had someone go and hold the loops on the back of the main for a better view of the race course, having covering there would impede that even if it were permitted by the loop hole that allows crew to be covered "occasionally".

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5 hours ago, erdb said:

It's possible that the foils are attached to the foil arm at different angles. That angle influences both pitch and yaw angles when the boat flies. 

Yep. You might find the boat sails a little more bow down on one tack than the other...

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I wonder if the appearance of thickness to that ETNZ foil is actually due to some fore and aft shaping.

I.e. it has a little bit of concave on the bottom with the leading and trailing edges lower than the centre.  I'm not sure what the effect would be but it could certainly appear visually thicker when viewed from the front or back.

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16 hours ago, chesirecat said:

Luff curve (gust control  etc)

 

etnz luf curve.jpg

I think thats a shit load of cunno, which it seems is getting more fashionable in these things . Hounds are too high for main tension to do that.

Other thing that is striking is the kink in the forestay from these half height jibs - its quite clever in a way, when the jib loads up more when main eased, the leech load on the jib actually tightens the forestay, so you aren't getting so much of the sag that would otherwise occur.

 

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11 minutes ago, Daniel Holman said:

I think thats a shit load of cunno, which it seems is getting more fashionable in these things . Hounds are too high for main tension to do that.

Other thing that is striking is the kink in the forestay from these half height jibs - its quite clever in a way, when the jib loads up more when main eased, the leech load on the jib actually tightens the forestay, so you aren't getting so much of the sag that would otherwise occur.

 

In terms of mast bend, how much would contributed by the backstays, vs the cunningham?

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7 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

In terms of mast bend, how much would contributed by the backstays, vs the cunningham?

Interesting question. It seems to me that these boats are biased further along the line from backstays to cunningham in that respect than any I have known.

One piece of evidence for that is LR trying to do without runners. Unthinkable unless most of your mast bend in at least low and medium airs is coming from Cunningham surely?

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14 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Interesting question. It seems to me that these boats are biased further along the line from backstays to cunningham in that respect than any I have known.

One piece of evidence for that is LR trying to do without runners. Unthinkable unless most of your mast bend in at least low and medium airs is coming from Cunningham surely?

I struggle to understand how the cunningham can do much for mast bend - unless the mast already has a fair bit of "pre-bend", perhaps by manufacturing design, &/or making the top section much more flexible. @Mikko Brummer could probably explain this better, from his knowledge of the Finns that only (?) use the cunningham.

Don't know if the shrouds are adjustable too? They are a bit aft of the MRP, so maybe they can contribute?

[edit] Just thought that the cut of the main might also be used to induce mast bend, when the mainsheet is tensioned?

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It's the same way that downhaul is used to bend a windsurfer mast. The loads are very large, so everything must be engineered with this in mind. 

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1 hour ago, MaxHugen said:

I struggle to understand how the cunningham can do much for mast bend - unless the mast already has a fair bit of "pre-bend", perhaps by manufacturing design, &/or making the top section much more flexible. @Mikko Brummer could probably explain this better, from his knowledge of the Finns that only (?) use the cunningham.

Don't know if the shrouds are adjustable too? They are a bit aft of the MRP, so maybe they can contribute?

[edit] Just thought that the cut of the main might also be used to induce mast bend, when the mainsheet is tensioned?

Most performance catamarans starting from about 1976 have used the cunningham to depower/bend the rig since there are no backstays..... In rotating rigs it is historically a combination of cunningham (downhaul) and the rotation to bend the mast and open the mid-leech to  depower. If you ease the sheet it opens the top of the main like a barn door. Also if you ease in a puff you don't want any ease in mainsheet to power the main up as the mast straightens, so cunningham keeps the rig bent. Once upon a time we would trim the cunningham almost as much as the mainsheet upwind as we rolled in and out of puffs. They may be doing the same today with the AC boats. 

I have not paid much attention to these rigs, but for a long time you de-rotate the rig to depower as the rigs bent more fore and aft and reduced the total chord depth/camber as you de-rotate, but I have not digitized any videos from this cycle so I am not sure how it is working with the soft wing. I can not find a good video or I would post one, I use to have some nice digitized ones from when we were building the first laminate Tornado mains, will keep looking. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, .......................... said:

Most performance catamarans starting from about 1976 have used the cunningham to depower/bend the rig since there are no backstays..... In rotating rigs it is historically a combination of cunningham (downhaul) and the rotation to bend the mast and open the mid-leech to  depower. If you ease the sheet it opens the top of the main like a barn door. Also if you ease in a puff you don't want any ease in mainsheet to power the main up as the mast straightens, so cunningham keeps the rig bent. I have not paid much attention to these rigs, but for a long time you de-rotate the rig to depower as the rigs bent more fore and aft and reduced the total chord depth/camber as you de-rotate, but I have not digitized any videos from this cycle so I am not sure how it is working with the soft wing. I can not find a good video or I would post one, I use to have some nice digitized ones from when we were building the first laminate Tornado mains, will keep looking.

I tend to understand concepts better when I can visualise them...  does the de-rotating work because the mainsheet tension can be increased, thus increasing mast bend? Does this not also reduce twist though?

Sorry, asking from a point of ignorance... would like to see one of your videos if you can find them!  :)

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3 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

I tend to understand concepts better when I can visualise them...  does the de-rotating work because the mainsheet tension can be increased, thus increasing mast bend? Does this not also reduce twist though?

Sorry, asking from a point of ignorance... would like to see one of your videos if you can find them!  :)

mast stiffness is often not the same f/a as sideways, so that affect matters when rotation is changed, but less rotation makes a less cambered "deep" shape and also induces less bend in the front of the battens.

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1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

Interesting question. It seems to me that these boats are biased further along the line from backstays to cunningham in that respect than any I have known.

One piece of evidence for that is LR trying to do without runners. Unthinkable unless most of your mast bend in at least low and medium airs is coming from Cunningham surely?

If the main(s) are cut with appropriate luff round you can have perfectly straight mast in light and medium. Although even with such high hounds there will be some bend imparted by big mainsheet loads.

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1 hour ago, MaxHugen said:

In terms of mast bend, how much would contributed by the backstays, vs the cunningham?

Cunno acts like a longbow string on rigs with full length battens. Masthead backstay won't put much prebend in as the hounds are so high, but means more direct control of forestay tension.

On my i14, adding full leech tension adds less than a mast chord of extra bend. Adding the cunno on that adds more extra bend than full leech tension, transforms the sail.

 

In a windsurf rig its a bit different as you don't have spreaders constraining the bend so much so they look very bent

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25 minutes ago, Daniel Holman said:

If the main(s) are cut with appropriate luff round you can have perfectly straight mast in light and medium. Although even with such high hounds there will be some bend imparted by big mainsheet loads.

But there is a difference between built in shape and the control. Shrouds and luff curve are built in. I am talking about control during the race

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On 1/28/2021 at 9:42 AM, Ex-yachtie said:

Here you go. From about 1:30. 

 

Pretty sure all teams are doing this. Heck even IMOCA mainsails are similarly depowered at the top but they have much less control. I'm more interested into how often and precisely they can control their main, akin to the bat wing from 2017. 

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5 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

In terms of mast bend, how much would contributed by the backstays, vs the cunningham?

On the A's prebend would be from the jumpers, on the fly cunningham. Not sure if that translates to the 75s.

Big boats, running backstays usually for control of forestay tension. Depends a bit where they join the mast if the contribute to bend

 

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15 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

Te Rehutai is in the water down at the viaduct so I guess they are going out this afternoon.

Word on the waterfront is they'll be testing the flux capacitor, front mount intercooler and bi-turbo resonator delete.

It'll sound, fuckin awesome.

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14 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Word on the waterfront is they'll be testing the flux capacitor, front mount intercooler and bi-turbo resonator delete.

It'll sound, fuckin awesome.

Better if they set the correct year, in case they hit 88 mph

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10 minutes ago, NZL4EVER said:

good time to chuck on some red herrings and see if the challengers take the bait....

Or, maybe wheel Te Aihe back out onto the forecort, start unwrapping and float the rumour, she is to be measured for the Match?  I mean, it's not like that's ever happened before, right?

Whoops....is it too soon? :blink:

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1 minute ago, strider470 said:

Better if they set the correct year, in case they hit 88 mph

What? 2021 not soon enough? ;-)

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"There were plenty of rumours that 32 was getting beating up by 20 and that was fine" Russell

"Overseas it's been nicknamed the black labrador"

"Someone phones up one of the paint guys, Your not allowed to tell anybody were gonna have to buy some black paint were painting NZL 20 within half an hour that was the word around Auckland" Peter Blake

GOOD TIMES!

I've heard NZL60 is being fitted with foils as we speak why else would it be down at the base???

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1 hour ago, fish7yu said:

Just as I had suspected many moons ago, TR has the ability to go 60kts without a headsail with both foils down, simply magic! :D

I can also foil whilst stationary. And stationery even! ;-)

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5 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Word on the waterfront is they'll be testing the flux capacitor, front mount intercooler and bi-turbo resonator delete.

It'll sound, fuckin awesome.

So they decided against the Russian caterpillar drive?  Guess it didn't help AM anyway.

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I understand having been told by a person out in a runabout that while TR was practicing on Course A today in layman’s term “the front rose up out of the water and the boat crashed back down during a manoeuvre and was quickly surrounded by chase boats”

Perhaps a more knowledgeable yachtie saw and can elaborate.

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2 hours ago, An Interested Non-Sailor said:

I understand having been told by a person out in a runabout that while TR was practicing on Course A today in layman’s term “the front rose up out of the water and the boat crashed back down during a manoeuvre and was quickly surrounded by chase boats”

Perhaps a more knowledgeable yachtie saw and can elaborate.

Testing the battery tiedowns, prolly. But don't tell, JAL. ;-)

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3 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

So they decided against the Russian caterpillar drive?  Guess it didn't help AM anyway. 

Cook Sudets achieved goal on AM by opening hull and crippling Capitalist activities to recover Harald Bennett Plate.......

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2 hours ago, An Interested Non-Sailor said:

I understand having been told by a person out in a runabout that while TR was practicing on Course A today in layman’s term “the front rose up out of the water and the boat crashed back down during a manoeuvre and was quickly surrounded by chase boats”

Perhaps a more knowledgeable yachtie saw and can elaborate.

Kate will be along in a minute to point out that NZ didn't rise up out of the water because there was still a bit of the boat still damp, and it didn't crash back down because its not a crash if the hull is still intact

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3 hours ago, An Interested Non-Sailor said:

I understand having been told by a person out in a runabout that while TR was practicing on Course A today in layman’s term “the front rose up out of the water and the boat crashed back down during a manoeuvre and was quickly surrounded by chase boats”

Perhaps a more knowledgeable yachtie saw and can elaborate.

There is a high probability that the runabout concerned was a Sea Nymph whose skippers and crew are renown expanders of the truth regarding matters of the size and magnitude of the event witnessed but not recorded.

 

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Been meaning to ask, what is the pronunciation of Te Rehutai? 

Please tell me that it rhymes and scans with "Tutti Frutti, Oh Rudy, Tutti frutti...". And if so, someone really should write alternative lyrics

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34 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

Tea Re (re as in red) hoo tie.  Means sea spray.

Alternative yank spelling is to bellow the middle bit, so it's "tee re HOOO tie!"  Picture the HOOO as the horn sound in "awhooogah!"

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4 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Well done on your mast bend line drawing. Someone will be very pleased!

I agree, that's some high definition yellow lining indeed!

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On 2/1/2021 at 3:59 AM, Daniel Holman said:

mast stiffness is often not the same f/a as sideways, so that affect matters when rotation is changed, but less rotation makes a less cambered "deep" shape and also induces less bend in the front of the battens.

When you de-rotate you are aligning luff induced bend with spreader induced bend .

In smaller rotating rigged boats this usually gives you a rig that has better  automatic gust response .

This is assuming that there is a reasonable amount of incidence between the spreaders and the stays .

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12 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Well done on your mast bend line drawing. Someone will be very pleased!

Reckon 3-5 mm on the mid luff curve would change gust response quite significantly.

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On 2/1/2021 at 2:32 AM, Daniel Holman said:

I think thats a shit load of cunno, which it seems is getting more fashionable in these things . Hounds are too high for main tension to do that.

Other thing that is striking is the kink in the forestay from these half height jibs - its quite clever in a way, when the jib loads up more when main eased, the leech load on the jib actually tightens the forestay, so you aren't getting so much of the sag that would otherwise occur.

 

That and structured luff jibs that require less halyard tension.

It shows that the load on the runners isn't too high also...

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On 2/1/2021 at 7:27 PM, An Interested Non-Sailor said:

I understand having been told by a person out in a runabout that while TR was practicing on Course A today in layman’s term “the front rose up out of the water and the boat crashed back down during a manoeuvre and was quickly surrounded by chase boats”

Perhaps a more knowledgeable yachtie saw and can elaborate.

How all teams stall flight and come to a stop? (throwing it out there...)

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30 minutes ago, WakaNZ said:

How all teams stall flight and come to a stop? (throwing it out there...)

Certainly seen a couple of teams do exactly that.  A bit like a bird landing!  :)

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5 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

What are the girls there for? There's no galley on a GP boat.

*Using hard bait. 

LOL! 

The one on the left in particular looks like she could kick some serious arse.

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4 hours ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Not ETNZ but a lot of crossover ..... NZ Sail GP team.

(L-R) Louis Sinclair, Blair Tuke, Andy Maloney, Erica Dawson, Josh Junior, Liv Mackay, Marcus Hansen, Peter Burling

Sail GP.jpg

Yay! Women! Sail GP has gone up in my estimation immediately. 
 

To be fair, that wasn’t hard. 

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4 hours ago, jaysper said:

LOL! 

The one on the left in particular looks like she could kick some serious arse.

Liv and Erica are crazy good sailors. Having some proper hard core women in this team is bound to add an edge others won't be able to beat. 

Stoked as to see it. 

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9 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

Liv and Erica are crazy good sailors. Having some proper hard core women in this team is bound to add an edge others won't be able to beat. 

Stoked as to see it. 

Isn't Erica the NZ Olympic selection in the Nacra 17 with Micah??

 

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1 hour ago, I ride bikes said:

Old and new

Screenshot_20210203-141305_Chrome.jpg

Nice little reminder that NZ's sailing pedigree goes back a long way.  Waka like the one in the background were at the cutting edge of sailing tech 200 years ago and ran rings around Cook's sailing bath tub.        

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You have a lot to learn then.  I shall have to recommend some books for you.  Polynesians were amazing sailors long before the English dipped their toe in the water?

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5 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

You have a lot to learn then.  I shall have to recommend some books for you.  Polynesians were amazing sailors long before the English dipped their toe in the water?

For a start Polynesians are a hybrid race arising from about three different origins but predominantly east Asia.  Each of the groups island hopped through South East Asia, Indonesia and migrated in a clearly defined direction east across the South Pacific. 

Necessity is the mother of all invention.  The Polynesian boat is an incremental evolution of what went before and influenced by the local conditions and available resources.  You could say that the environment developed the design class.

British boats have a history that goes back to the Nordic Stone and Bronze Ages thousands of years before the migrations into the South Pacific.

 

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2 hours ago, Apterix said:

Nice little reminder that NZ's sailing pedigree goes back a long way.  Waka like the one in the background were at the cutting edge of sailing tech 200 years ago and ran rings around Cook's sailing bath tub.        

If only we could think of a modern example of isolated ingenuity overcoming imperial might?

Let me think about it for a few weeks and come back to it. 

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40 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

For a start Polynesians are a hybrid race arising from about three different origins but predominantly east Asia.  Each of the groups island hopped through South East Asia, Indonesia and migrated in a clearly defined direction east across the South Pacific. 

Necessity is the mother of all invention.  The Polynesian boat is an incremental evolution of what went before and influenced by the local conditions and available resources.  You could say that the environment developed the design class.

British boats have a history that goes back to the Nordic Stone and Bronze Ages thousands of years before the migrations into the South Pacific.

 

Yet all that knowledge still can’t win the cup

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51 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

For a start Polynesians are a hybrid race arising from about three different origins but predominantly east Asia.  Each of the groups island hopped through South East Asia, Indonesia and migrated in a clearly defined direction east across the South Pacific. 

Necessity is the mother of all invention.  The Polynesian boat is an incremental evolution of what went before and influenced by the local conditions and available resources.  You could say that the environment developed the design class.

British boats have a history that goes back to the Nordic Stone and Bronze Ages thousands of years before the migrations into the South Pacific.

 

Total historical tosh Katey.

Whilst the British were pottering about in their Cogs usually within sight of land the Polynesians were completing open ocean journeys over thousands of miles and not only single direction but return also.

The Poms had no established and reliable navigational skills to successfully conduct long distance ocean crossings that came anywhere near what the Polynesians achieved at comparable historical periods.

Apart from that Irish monk Brendan but he would have been a Republican.

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

For a start Polynesians are a hybrid race arising from about three different origins but predominantly east Asia.  Each of the groups island hopped through South East Asia, Indonesia and migrated in a clearly defined direction east across the South Pacific. 

 

They can’t have discovered New Zealand then, tucked away in the south western corner of the Pacific?

You’d do well to refresh your history books with something written after the 1990s. 

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3 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

They can’t have discovered New Zealand then, tucked away in the south western corner of the Pacific?

You’d do well to refresh your history books with something written after the 1990s. 

The poor old convict colony of Aus seemed to learn a lot quicker than the poms  on how to sail and win a cup ! 

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28 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

The Polynesian boat is an incremental evolution of what went before and influenced by the local conditions and available resources.  You could say that the environment developed the design class.

Kupe ”I’m sailing a Cat the Poms are sailing a Cog”

E636E9B7-0A70-49B9-8839-0EC9BB887C73.gif.f866ef6a8ec796d90521eb6e843403fd.gif

12C7B85F-ED13-4694-AED1-87D15A0C3CCA.thumb.jpeg.274946b3a2a665001c64485c44ef6c71.jpeg

 

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Hey Endeavour looked far better than that but not a patch on the cats.

Cook wrote in his diary " they sailed completely around us and sailed off over the horizon" or words to that affect.

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20 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

The poor old convict colony of Aus seemed to learn a lot quicker than the poms  on how to sail and win a cup ! 

In true form, didn’t they just steal the idea off some Dutchman?

<takes cover>

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4 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

Hey Endeavour looked far better than that but not a patch on the cats.

Cook wrote in his diary " they sailed completely around us and sailed off over the horizon" or words to that affect.

Talking of cats Tongan catamaran with deck spreaders.

http://chevaliertaglang.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-evolution-of-sailing-multihulls.html

B4BA17E7-F948-4FD4-A4FD-6E105D8212E7.thumb.jpeg.5687ee997ae289adb5552242327ccf14.jpeg

 

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40 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

In true form, didn’t they just steal the idea off some Dutchman?

<takes cover>

Probably yes.   But smarter still use some dopey Dutch idea and use it against the poms and beat them.    Clever as 

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