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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

After many hours of consideration, a lot of in-depth research on the SA technical threads, extensive computational modelling and a few quick & dirty minutes in Photoshop, I have produced this anal

They towed out around 11am and the breeze was light and puffy to start with. Foiled down the Channel and headed out to the Bays. The breeze started to build around midday and they got some long runs i

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On 2/20/2021 at 3:58 PM, 45Roller said:

Did he ever make it to New Zealand?

No, unfortunately Jason (MyislandhomeBDA) didn't make it down here, but I just received an email back from him and he says he is watching the racing closely and New Zealand is looking beautiful:

 
Please tell everyone a great ''BIG HELLO'' all the way from MyislandhomeBDA for me please.
 
ALL THE BEST!!!
Jason
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23 minutes ago, accnick said:

We call those airboats where I live in Florida. Great for moving through the swamps.

Yeah, I know why you yanks have them. Especially in Florida.

But we don't have those sorts of geographic features here.

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48 minutes ago, weta27 said:

No, unfortunately Jason (MyislandhomeBDA) didn't make it down here, but I just received an email back from him and he says he is watching the racing closely and New Zealand is looking beautiful:

 
Please tell everyone a great ''BIG HELLO'' all the way from MyislandhomeBDA for me please.
 
ALL THE BEST!!!
Jason

Excellent thanks Weta. He was a top bloke. 

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On 2/19/2021 at 6:40 AM, Zeusproject said:

No one crossed interesting!

6.36 mark they are crossing in between mast and jib. Initially nobody was crossing but perhaps Pete is practicing steering on one side in the lighter conditions don't know? 

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10 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

 

Hah you haven't lived until the first bite of a Big Ben pie from the BP station has disgorged it's scalding contents onto your nether regions whilst hooning off down the motorway.:P

Stubbies have inherent design weaknesses.

Worse than Napalm.

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On 2/21/2021 at 12:58 PM, Varan said:

Meanwhile, Gladwell says

If the Brits lose both races today they are headed for the Boulevard of Broken [America's Cup] Dreams, or if they win one they stay alive to sail on Monday. If they can win two they will be on an America's Cup comeback - and it will be the Italians who are in trouble at 4-3.

Regardless, I generally like Sail-World.

I'm glad he has one fan...

 

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Great interview with Patrizio Bertelli by Il Corriere della Sera, worth a G-tran. I posted it also in the LR thread but it seemed dutiful to post it also here. He confirmed the cyclors were a LR idea, gifted to ETNZ. Alinghi will be COR if LR win. 

https://www.corriere.it/sport/21_febbraio_22/bertelli-luna-rossa-doppio-timoniere-creativita-italiana-auckland-non-hanno-trovato-posto-mio-figlio-quarantena-fe9d832c-748e-11eb-88fd-12da203c2b8b.shtml

I remember Chris Draper speaking about another LR gift, the flight control software they were developing. LR help to the ETNZ victory in Bermuda was quite huge, it seems.

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19 minutes ago, Zaal said:

Great interview with Patrizio Bertelli by Il Corriere della Sera, worth a G-tran. I posted it also in the LR thread but it seemed dutiful to post it also here. He confirmed the cyclors were a LR idea, gifted to ETNZ. Alinghi will be COR if LR win. 

https://www.corriere.it/sport/21_febbraio_22/bertelli-luna-rossa-doppio-timoniere-creativita-italiana-auckland-non-hanno-trovato-posto-mio-figlio-quarantena-fe9d832c-748e-11eb-88fd-12da203c2b8b.shtml

I remember Chris Draper speaking about another LR gift, the flight control software they were developing. LR help to the ETNZ victory in Bermuda was quite huge, it seems.

Yes, amazing interview and revelation I have not heard before.


"A bit. A bit of Italian flair: like the cyclist grinder project, which we passed on to the New Zealanders in 2017 in Bermuda ".

If you believe the kiwi fanboys here you would have thought it was native ingenuity that gave them the winning solution for Bermuda, not a gift from Prada. 

And of course that Prada bailed them out when LV dropped out of sponsoring the Challenger elimination series. 

 

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10 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Yes, amazing interview and revelation I have not heard before.


"A bit. A bit of Italian flair: like the cyclist grinder project, which we passed on to the New Zealanders in 2017 in Bermuda ".

If you believe the kiwi fanboys here you would have thought it was native ingenuity that gave them the winning solution for Bermuda, not a gift from Prada. 

And of course that Prada bailed them out when LV dropped out of sponsoring the Challenger elimination series. 

 

The cyclor idea goes back to a Swedish challenge in the 1970's.

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B7D5E630-A945-4916-95DD-B81FC33C8E94.gif.7176390b09d9bb97ab111c61e4423af3.gifApparently Peter Burling Blair Tuke and Glenn Ashby are also really Italian 

The NZ Herald are reporting that they are in fact Petzo Burino, Bruno Totini and Glendino Ashbino.

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17 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

The cyclor idea goes back to a Swedish challenge in the 1970's.

That's very old history from Pelle Petersen days.

The point is how the kiwis made the progression for their catamaran design for Bermuda.

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Just now, winchfodder said:

That's very old history from Pelle Petersen days.

The point is how the kiwis made the progression for their catamaran design for Bermuda.

Always easy to gawp at the hot chick, but how many actually ask them out.

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It is undeniable that ETNZ won the Cup with some, maybe little but significant, help from Luna Rossa, because there was a common cause at the time.

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Wow looks like this story is really breaking!

Exclusive pictures of the Italian prototype secretly ship the ETNZ in 2016 :ph34r:

065E1CEA-9E0A-4D6D-B041-5E7F34807472.jpeg

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15 minutes ago, strider470 said:

It is undeniable that ETNZ won the Cup with some, maybe little but significant, help from Luna Rossa, because there was a common cause at the time.

you will find it is highly deniable,, it been denied ever since that nice silver catamaran was being sailed around at the Foiling week by Glen and co.

you can fight that battle if you wish but its against deaf ears.

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2 hours ago, uflux said:

Wow looks like this story is really breaking!

Exclusive pictures of the Italian prototype secretly ship the ETNZ in 2016 :ph34r:

065E1CEA-9E0A-4D6D-B041-5E7F34807472.jpeg

Now I can see where Max & co found the idea to have two helmsmen and why Ben had so much trouble beating them because he could not figure who was actually steering at any one time. 

"Your wheel" says Cecco. 

"So who is the cuntiness steering now?" Says Pietro.

"Not me!" Says Pitbull..

To be continued.......

 

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Just now, winchfodder said:

Now I can see where Max & co found the idea to have two helmsmen and why Ben had so much trouble beating them because he could not figure who was actually steering at any one time. 

"Your wheel" says Cecco. 

"So who is the cuntiness steering now?" Says Pietro.

"Not me!" Says Pitbull..

 

ahahahahah :D

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I call revisionist bullshit on this claim about the cyclors. ETNZ folk I know talked about them (to me directly) back in San Fran as a potential way to significantly up the power output on the boat for future iterations of winged boats if they kept going down that path. Even then it was mentioned in the context of how can you have as many proper sailors on the boat by having more efficient grinders (who do nothing else).

3 hours ago, Zaal said:

Great interview with Patrizio Bertelli by Il Corriere della Sera, worth a G-tran. I posted it also in the LR thread but it seemed dutiful to post it also here. He confirmed the cyclors were a LR idea, gifted to ETNZ. Alinghi will be COR if LR win. 

https://www.corriere.it/sport/21_febbraio_22/bertelli-luna-rossa-doppio-timoniere-creativita-italiana-auckland-non-hanno-trovato-posto-mio-figlio-quarantena-fe9d832c-748e-11eb-88fd-12da203c2b8b.shtml

I remember Chris Draper speaking about another LR gift, the flight control software they were developing. LR help to the ETNZ victory in Bermuda was quite huge, it seems.

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You realise both sides could be correct here? Its entirely possible LR came to ETNZ with these ideas after they withdrew, it's also entirely possible ETNZ had already been thinking along the same lines? After all both had competed with AC75s so they'd have similar levels of knowledge and ideas. Just like we keep comparing the AC72s and saying who "copied" who, the reality is that rules tend to box people into "corners" of design...

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17 hours ago, weta27 said:

No, unfortunately Jason (MyislandhomeBDA) didn't make it down here, but I just received an email back from him and he says he is watching the racing closely and New Zealand is looking beautiful:

 
Please tell everyone a great ''BIG HELLO'' all the way from MyislandhomeBDA for me please.
 
ALL THE BEST!!!
Jason

Thanks for reaching out to him, will be great to see his videos again when SailGP is there :)

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8 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

you will find it is highly deniable,, it been denied ever since that nice silver catamaran was being sailed around at the Foiling week by Glen and co.

you can fight that battle if you wish but its against deaf ears.

Ugh no one denied it. But no one actually knows how much input LR had. The one thing that is funny is that, when ETNZ were using the LR training platform back then, a lot of people (you know who you are) scoffed at, laughed at, mocked and insulted the Kiwi’s for using it because it was “old, a hand me down, obsolete, irrelevant, and useless” compared to what the other teams were using in Bermuda. Same with the simulator, it was Kiwis playing video games while the Bermuda teams were getting it done on the water. No amount of video games was going to replace or equal what the Bermuda teams were getting. I also remember when this cycle started those same people scoffed at LR because they had “no design team” they had no well know designers compared to the other teams so they had no chance. Moral of the story being, those people who pass themselves off as knowledgeable (again, you know who you are) are full of crap. 

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9 hours ago, Zaal said:

Great interview with Patrizio Bertelli by Il Corriere della Sera, worth a G-tran. I posted it also in the LR thread but it seemed dutiful to post it also here. He confirmed the cyclors were a LR idea, gifted to ETNZ. Alinghi will be COR if LR win. 

https://www.corriere.it/sport/21_febbraio_22/bertelli-luna-rossa-doppio-timoniere-creativita-italiana-auckland-non-hanno-trovato-posto-mio-figlio-quarantena-fe9d832c-748e-11eb-88fd-12da203c2b8b.shtml

I remember Chris Draper speaking about another LR gift, the flight control software they were developing. LR help to the ETNZ victory in Bermuda was quite huge, it seems.

This is the typical rewrite history shit that goes back to the winged keel design claims from the 80s. Could it not just be The hundredth monkey?

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29 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Ugh no one denied it. But no one actually knows how much input LR had. 

Well, I think there's quite some people who actually knows it. Unluckily for us none of them is posting on SA. :D

But we can still have an idea if we consider how much "concessions" ETNZ had to give to LR...

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29 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Ugh no one denied it. But no one actually knows how much input LR had. The one thing that is funny is that, when ETNZ were using the LR training platform back then, a lot of people (you know who you are) scoffed at, laughed at, mocked and insulted the Kiwi’s for using it because it was “old, a hand me down, obsolete, irrelevant, and useless” compared to what the other teams were using in Bermuda. Same with the simulator, it was Kiwis playing video games while the Bermuda teams were getting it done on the water. No amount of video games was going to replace or equal what the Bermuda teams were getting. I also remember when this cycle started those same people scoffed at LR because they had “no design team” they had no well know designers compared to the other teams so they had no chance. Moral of the story being, those people who pass themselves off as knowledgeable (again, you know who you are) are full of crap.  

Hey I can't follow a Harry Potter style conversation! Who are you talking  about? Lord Voltemort? :D just curious

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7 minutes ago, southseasbill said:

I notice Te Rehutai is out of the shed. Quite windy today so if they go out, I wonder if we will see version 2 of the Bat sail.

My guess is that we’ll see even more extreme versions of the Bat Wing before all’s said and done.. 

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On 2/19/2021 at 7:12 AM, thumps said:
On 2/19/2021 at 6:40 AM, Zeusproject said:

No one crossed interesting!

There was crossing at 6:30 and 11:50, but looks like they're practicing a tacking duel, with lots of fairly short legs.   Preparing for what we saw LRPP doing in the last two races perhaps?  in light air, as well. Nice spotting, bortolo.

I think New Zealand may be practicing a slightly different version of Luna Rossa's twin helm approach? A tacking duel approach it maybe where the switching of Burling from one side to the other would not be practical. For example if they lost the start to Jimmy we know Luna Rossa would tack on top of them and so they will want to shake the cover. Keeping the speed up through all these tacks will be critical. In the end it looked like Luna Rossa had really taken advantage of the 2 helm approach and I think New Zealand saw enough of that to think about their own approach?

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34 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

I think New Zealand may be practicing a slightly different version of Luna Rossa's twin helm approach? A tacking duel approach it maybe where the switching of Burling from one side to the other would not be practical. For example if they lost the start to Jimmy we know Luna Rossa would tack on top of them and so they will want to shake the cover. Keeping the speed up through all these tacks will be critical. In the end it looked like Luna Rossa had really taken advantage of the 2 helm approach and I think New Zealand saw enough of that to think about their own approach?

There would seem to be far too little time left to optimize such a thing so late in the game if they've never done it before. Look how long it tool LRPP to get it right and they've been doing it all along

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30 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

There would seem to be far too little time left to optimize such a thing so late in the game if they've never done it before. Look how long it tool LRPP to get it right and they've been doing it all along

Better and younger sailors on ETNZ will learn quicker.

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4 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

My guess is that we’ll see even more extreme versions of the Bat Wing before all’s said and done.. 

Yup heres a recent shot of Pistol Pete caught doing some single handed manoeuvres.

Those tricky Kiwis have managed to successfully solve the vexed boom-less mainsail end plating issue and also have made substantial windage and weight savings by entirely eliminating the mast as well.

 

Bat-Boat-1966-batman-8241390-1024-768.gif.7c4a3d77647f462023671cf838eca4aa.gif.

 

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37 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Yup heres a recent shot of Pistol Pete caught doing some single handed manoeuvres.

Those tricky Kiwis have managed to successfully solve the vexed boom-less mainsail end plating issue and also have made substantial windage and weight savings by entirely eliminating the mast as well.

 

Bat-Boat-1966-batman-8241390-1024-768.gif.7c4a3d77647f462023671cf838eca4aa.gif.

 

Funny thing is that everytime I see the LRPP boat from the top with the red lines etc I think of the old bat mobile... this one:

 

Batmobile_TV.jpg

m4346_crop11014_860x860_proportional_1613623469F4B3.jpg

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1 hour ago, Flags said:

Better and younger sailors on ETNZ will learn quicker.

I tend to agree with zillafreak on this.

Probably too late in the game.

Besides, it's been no secret LR have dual helms for the longest time, so why would they leave trialling it till so late???

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16 hours ago, winchfodder said:

"A bit. A bit of Italian flair: like the cyclist grinder project, which we passed on to the New Zealanders in 2017 in Bermuda ".

 

If you believe the kiwi fanboys here you would have thought it was native ingenuity that gave them the winning solution for Bermuda, not a gift from Prada.

And of course that Prada bailed them out when LV dropped out of sponsoring the Challenger elimination series. 

 

If you believe the Italians...And LV were never in AC36 once their competitors were CoR, hence the gifting of the LV bags to the crowd at the AC35 presentation ceremony.

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7 hours ago, Thewas said:

Well, I think there's quite some people who actually knows it. Unluckily for us none of them is posting on SA. :D

But we can still have an idea if we consider how much "concessions" ETNZ had to give to LR...

The one big "concession" being the monohull for AC36. The even bigger shock for Bertelli that it was a 75' flying fucking monohull!:D

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Very windy in AKL today.
 

This, stolen from Joan Kirk on the ETNZ Fans Facebook page.

Interesting to see no batwing main. 

E1AE2C26-9740-4F44-BAFF-17B88D87F3C4.jpeg

Bikini jib for high wind conditions

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4 hours ago, Flags said:
5 hours ago, zillafreak said:

There would seem to be far too little time left to optimize such a thing so late in the game if they've never done it before. Look how long it tool LRPP to get it right and they've been doing it all along

Better and younger sailors on ETNZ will learn quicker.

They are practicing the no change of helm but only in quick tacking duels. If they are free of a tacking duel it would revert to normal. At least going by the practice videos I have seen when doing quick rapid tacks there is no change of helm or no sign of anyone crossing?

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Just now, Forourselves said:

This link doesn't work for me. 

This Content Isn't Available Right Now
When this happens, it's usually because the owner only shared it with a small group of people, changed who can see it or it's been deleted.
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1 minute ago, terrafirma said:

This link doesn't work for me. 

This Content Isn't Available Right Now
When this happens, it's usually because the owner only shared it with a small group of people, changed who can see it or it's been deleted.

Maybe like the ETNZ FB page? Not sure, but I'm watching it right now.

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8 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

This link doesn't work for me. 

This Content Isn't Available Right Now
When this happens, it's usually because the owner only shared it with a small group of people, changed who can see it or it's been deleted.

Hope this works.. 

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6 minutes ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Ashby on the main is way more important than who’s driving. Big mistake making him drive. The fastest boat wins. Trimmers make fast boats, not drivers. 

Not sure the boats have a specialised main trimmer any more.

The afterguard as we've seen on many occasions need to multitask, not specialise.

The helmsman tends to control the trimming functions as much as they drive the boat now, which is why we heard Pete in the ACWS, as well as Jimmy calling "my trav" and "my rudder" meaning the trimming and pitch functions are being controlled by the helmsman, and probably between the flight controller as well.

 

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5 hours ago, zillafreak said:

There would seem to be far too little time left to optimize such a thing so late in the game if they've never done it before. Look how long it tool LRPP to get it right and they've been doing it all along

All the time they spent in the little boat was a two helm approach so they have plenty on water experience plus whatever they do in the sim.

The cockpits on that boat, They’re not exactly designed for swapping sides are they?

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Glenn Ashby - 10 x A-Class world Championships, I think the guy knows how to drive an apparent wind boat when push comes to shove.

I reckon Pistol Pete would know a thing or 2 about main trim too.

Switching to dual helms wouldn't be a stretch for these 2 guys.

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I'm 100% pro a switch to Burling/Gashby twin helm setup.

I think going up vs LR with a slick twin helm team using a multi-crossing approach is a no-go on these short, narrow courses.

They already have Tuke non-crossing on foil trim.

 

It is a bit concerning whether Burling can be as smooth on the main as Gashby (necessary for the highly loaded foils) but what better teacher? And he'll have loads of data to help copy the method.

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He is doing main trim already, NO has talked about it for weeks in his vids.

plus they ran twin helm on the little boat all last summer, Lastly you can’t tell me that that cockpit design on the boat was designed so that actually swapped sides sides?

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It's not going to matter how they decide to helm. ETNZ will stretch the legs and burn LR. There won't be a lot of match racing.

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42 minutes ago, hoom said:

I'm 100% pro a switch to Burling/Gashby twin helm setup.

I think going up vs LR with a slick twin helm team using a multi-crossing approach is a no-go on these short, narrow courses.

They already have Tuke non-crossing on foil trim.

 

It is a bit concerning whether Burling can be as smooth on the main as Gashby (necessary for the highly loaded foils) but what better teacher? And he'll have loads of data to help copy the method.

Now I speak as an ETNZ supporter. (apart from Luna Rossa they have always been my second-best team). I think that changing such a vital setup, tested for months if not years, only 2 weeks before the most important race is not a very smart move. And also that could give the impression to the rest of the team that they are almost desperate. It's nonsense. Better focusing on perfecting what they already do and trust their boat and crew skills. I add that Burling is super fit and young and can minimize risks when switching sides in comparison to Dean Barker and Ben Ainslie. I could accept as valid a hybrid solution, like having a dual helm configuration during pre-starts (where it could be a real advantage) and then switching back to the usual configuration.

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I don't look at it as a change in a vital setup, they are just practising a modding.

All the boats hand the helm off to an alternate helm during a tack or gybe, ETNZ are practising doing this through a tacking duel thats all.

Ashby and Burling are both high performance dinghy sailors used to trimming mains and driving, so its natural they would be the pair to practise with.

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8 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

I don't look at it as a change in a vital setup, they are just practising a modding.

All the boats hand the helm off to an alternate helm during a tack or gybe, ETNZ are practising doing this through a tacking duel thats all.

Ashby and Burling are both high performance dinghy sailors used to trimming mains and driving, so its natural they would be the pair to practise with.

I fear it's not all that simple, and long time, trained to perfection skills cannot be re-built in two weeks at the same level. This adds confusion instead. Max Sirena in an interview said that they have backups for the main roles on Luna Rossa but that they are protecting the afterguards at their best because it would not be the same, and moreover that they can't afford to train extensively the backups, taking that time from Jimmy, Checco and Pietro.

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4 minutes ago, strider470 said:

I fear it's not all that simple, and long time, trained to perfection skills cannot be re-built in two weeks at the same level. This adds confusion instead. 

You make an assumption that they are trying to copy Luna Rossa's fully dual helm roles, rather than "simply" extending what they already do during tacks and gybes (somebody has always had to helm while Pete crosses, I assume that was Glenn before too). They first practised the "no cross" tack and gybe last year before the ACWS so this isn't a new trick, it's preparation and drills for a scenario they might face against Luna Rossa e.g if Luna Rossa win a start they will try to control ETNZ with lots of short tacking as everyone seems to think the Kiwis will be faster. If thats correct if the Kiwis' then get ahead I'd expect them to revert to form and go back to switching.

 

Quote

Max Sirena in an interview said that they have backups for the main roles on Luna Rossa but that they are protecting the afterguards at their best because it would not be the same, and moreover that they can't afford to train extensively the backups, taking that time from Jimmy, Checco and Pietro.

Totally, and ETNZ haven't let their backups have much time either, as that would take valuable time from Pete, Glenn and Blair.

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6 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

You make an assumption that they are trying to copy Luna Rossa's fully dual helm roles, rather than "simply" extending what they already do during tacks and gybes (somebody has always had to helm while Pete crosses, I assume that was Glenn before too). They first practised the "no cross" tack and gybe last year before the ACWS so this isn't a new trick, it's preparation and drills for a scenario they might face against Luna Rossa e.g if Luna Rossa win a start they will try to control ETNZ with lots of short tacking as everyone seems to think the Kiwis will be faster. If thats correct if the Kiwis' then get ahead I'd expect them to revert to form and go back to switching.

Yes, I agree. As I wrote in another answer, an hybrid solution does make much more sense.

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4 hours ago, I ride bikes said:

Excuse my ignorance please.  Why could all 3 not be sitting out of the wind, in front of the mast?

Can't be in front of foils. Rule. Slice and dice.

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7 hours ago, I ride bikes said:

Excuse my ignorance please.  Why could all 3 not be sitting out of the wind, in front of the mast?

28.8 Crew shall remain entirely aft of a plane 9.0 m forward of TRP except briefly to cross the boat, handle sails
during a drop or a hoist, or resolve unforeseen issues.


28.9 Any crew that go forward of a plane 11.0 m forward of TRP may only do so as permitted by Rule 28.8, and
must be tethered to the hull by a harness and safety line that complies with ISO 12401, the safety line
being no longer than 2 m.

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1 hour ago, accnick said:

28.8 Crew shall remain entirely aft of a plane 9.0 m forward of TRP except briefly to cross the boat, handle sails
during a drop or a hoist, or resolve unforeseen issues.


28.9 Any crew that go forward of a plane 11.0 m forward of TRP may only do so as permitted by Rule 28.8, and
must be tethered to the hull by a harness and safety line that complies with ISO 12401, the safety line
being no longer than 2 m.

29.1 Any fucker failing to comply with 28.8 and 28.9 and leaving the boat without permission, i.e. falling off will be sliced in two by the foil. 

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11 hours ago, strider470 said:

Yes, I agree. As I wrote in another answer, an hybrid solution does make much more sense.

"hybrid solution"... hopefully for ETNZ it will be more effective than Oracle's 2017 hybrid cyclor solution :wacko:

 

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