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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

They towed out around 11am and the breeze was light and puffy to start with. Foiled down the Channel and headed out to the Bays. The breeze started to build around midday and they got some long runs i

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The AC75s have probably increased from 80% of what they can deliver to 90%. The voyage of design has only just begun.  However fast ETNZ is today, a boat that is much faster can still be built and the improvements can come from hundreds of small details.

F1 is a good analogy ...if you compare a car that was dominant two years ago, it would be a laggard today. F! is more evolved than AC75 so I would argue that the potential for further design improvement is immense and the best boat in 2021 will not be competitive next time.....and probably could be beat in 6 months of further development.

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2 minutes ago, IPLore said:

The AC75s have probably increased from 80% of what they can deliver to 90%. The voyage of design has only just begun.  However fast ETNZ is today, a boat that is much faster can still be built and the improvements can come from hundreds of small details.

F1 is a good analogy ...if you compare a car that was dominant two years ago, it would be a laggard today. F! is more evolved than AC75 so I would argue that the potential for further design improvement is immense and the best boat in 2021 will not be competitive next time.....and probably could be beat in 6 months of further development.

AC boats have become a one–regatta design, comparing boats from different cups is pretty pointless, e.g. the last 3 cups and this one. The AC class will almost certainly use a different rule, might be designed for different conditions and may not be a monohull or foiling (though I can't see LR, INEOS or ETNZ going away from foiling monos).

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40 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:
2 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

The power required to tow one of these up to over 50 knots would be well beyond the current chase boats I reckon.

Maybe if they fitted the chase boats with Mercs new V12 600hp outboards?

https://www.mercurymarine.com/en/us/v12/

Worthless exercise, really. They'll have likely already run into that cavitation bogey under their own velocity.

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58 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

How can it be a "Design" competition when F1 has so many rules and regulations?

Fuck Kate, has your account been hacked by Alinghi4Ever?

Suddenly your comments are particularly obtuse.

F1 isn't a design race. Aero on AC75 hulls don't matter.

Fuck me, I've got a solar road to sell you.

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

How can it be a "Design" competition when F1 has so many rules and regulations?

Designing a competitive boat or car within a rule is much more of a design competition than say your average "run what ye brung" competition.

The rules and regulations of the AC75 create the envelope within which the designers have to figure out increasingly smaller competitive advantages. What works is quickly copied and then the designers seek the next advantage.

Most of the rules and regs in Formula 1 are  aimed at safety and making the racing more exciting. So for example they have introduced rules about the wings and aero for 2022 , not to level the playing field but to bring back more ground effect and less disturbance behind the car  so that cars can follow more closely and create the opportunity for more overtaking....which the fans like.  That will pose new design challenges and new solutions.

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

F1 has lost its way.  It is no longer a design competition.  There are limits on how much power they can produce from their engines.  There are no such limits on how much sail area you can put up on a AC boat.  Hull and foils are useless without power which comes from the sails harnessing the available wind.  

Aero largely irrelevant. 
No limits on sail area. 
Make a bigger hole so the bot doesn’t sink. 
 

KsfB if nothing else you are very fucken funny to read. 

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11 minutes ago, JJD said:

Aero largely irrelevant. 
No limits on sail area. 
Make a bigger hole so the bot doesn’t sink. 
 

KsfB if nothing else you are very fucken funny to read. 

I propose his account has been hacked by Alinghi4Ever.

If for one won't be engaging in any more serious discussion with him.

There's an old saying that applies here. Don't wrestle with a pig. 

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Talked to a guy who'd been on a VIP boat on Sunday. After the last race and as LR and Ineos were moving away from the finish area ETNZ did a run down the course. Having just watched two races he said the Kiwis looked "Fucking fast". More importantly though, he's certain they didn't gybe once. Anyone else able to verify this?

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4 minutes ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

More importantly though, he's certain they didn't gybe once. Anyone else able to verify this?

I can absolutely verify this.

Also, they foil in zero knots of wind speed.

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Just now, jaysper said:

I can absolutely verify this.

Also, they foil in zero knots of wind speed.

Yes observed multiple times....they can foil entirely in their own apparent wind.

They have also honed a technique where they can stop the boat without falling off the foils which will give them a kick ass advantage in pre start tactics.

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6 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

ETNZ’s apparent ability to manipulate both the start line geometry and the start clock countdown could be pretty massive too.. Geniuses! :D 

That's why they installed the flux capacitor I mentioned yesterday.

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6 minutes ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Talked to a guy who'd been on a VIP boat on Sunday. After the last race and as LR and Ineos were moving away from the finish area ETNZ did a run down the course. Having just watched two races he said the Kiwis looked "Fucking fast". More importantly though, he's certain they didn't gybe once. Anyone else able to verify this?

I was out on the water on Sunday and didn't see the no-gybe look, but I can tell you that ETNZ did seem very quick when playing around the other boats in before the races started... it was like watching a silent monster stalking around its prey...

They also did plenty of 180/JKs over and over again in the starting box without missing a beat...

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16 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Yes observed multiple times....they can foil entirely in their own apparent wind.

They have also honed a technique where they can stop the boat without falling off the foils which will give them a kick ass advantage in pre start tactics.

Sydstand off a Harly?

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3 hours ago, The Advocate said:

Am thinking the most power required would be used getting the boat onto the foils, but if the chase boats already top out around 50, then that settles that.

Like any other object moving through a fluid, the drag force on a foil goes up with the square of velocity assuming constant geometry.  Google "Drag Equation"

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47 minutes ago, JJD said:

Aero largely irrelevant. 
No limits on sail area. 
Make a bigger hole so the bot doesn’t sink. 
 

KsfB if nothing else you are very fucken funny to read. 

I didn't say there was no limits on sail area.  However like life it is how you use what you have.

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2 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

Not really. The hull mass provides crucial downforce for righting moment. The last thing they would want from an AC75 hull is lift.

You would think so, your logic works, but VOR65's and IMOCAs discovered that keel lift working opposite to righting moment is actually fast.  In those cases, because the lift reduces drag faster than the RM increases drive force.  I guess could be the case for a foiling AC75 too.  It's a bit counter-intuitive for sure, but if the foil has to lift less than the total weight of the boat it can operate at a better Lift / Drag ratio and the boat could achieve higher speeds for the same drive force.

Combine a lifting hull form with clever rig trim that lowers the centre of effort (so less RM required at a given drive force) and you're faster than the other guy.

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That 62 knots number was bullshit! :D 
 

Max talked about the potential of an AC75 V2 hitting 60 knots but since you can’t alternate foils (or morph them enough) to cross from sub to super cavitation shapes, well.. I will very surprised if that speed happens in AC36! 

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

F1 has lost its way.  It is no longer a design competition.  There are limits on how much power they can produce from their engines.  There are no such limits on how much sail area you can put up on a AC boat.  Hull and foils are useless without power which comes from the sails harnessing the available wind.  

40 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I didn't say there was no limits on sail area.  However like life it is how you use what you have.

Actually, thats exactly what you said.

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Why were all the spec boats off to the right, East?, with none to the left? Sharks out there? 

More sheltered side of the course to anchor up in i guess.

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1 hour ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Talked to a guy who'd been on a VIP boat on Sunday. After the last race and as LR and Ineos were moving away from the finish area ETNZ did a run down the course. Having just watched two races he said the Kiwis looked "Fucking fast". More importantly though, he's certain they didn't gybe once. Anyone else able to verify this?

Hey, SeaB. Was he aboard one of those fully-catered tours - where you can drink all the piss you can handle (and then some) for free? ;-)

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Why were all the spec boats off to the right, East?, with none to the left? Sharks out there? 

look beyond.... it's where all the fat chicks were

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3 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Well, reading you and F himself is pretty much one and the same  :D

Have you seen a few AC75's in the flesh sailing around have you TC?

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1 hour ago, DickDastardly said:

You would think so, your logic works, but VOR65's and IMOCAs discovered that keel lift working opposite to righting moment is actually fast.  In those cases, because the lift reduces drag faster than the RM increases drive force.  I guess could be the case for a foiling AC75 too.  It's a bit counter-intuitive for sure, but if the foil has to lift less than the total weight of the boat it can operate at a better Lift / Drag ratio and the boat could achieve higher speeds for the same drive force.

Combine a lifting hull form with clever rig trim that lowers the centre of effort (so less RM required at a given drive force) and you're faster than the other guy.

Keel (and foil) lift for the VORs and IMOCAs is to reduce wetted area, as they don't fully foil.

The biggest challenge for the AC75s once on foils, is to balance the heeling force against the limited righting moment they have. Whilst at the same time balancing the other 2 moments, plus the 3 directions of forces.

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2 hours ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Talked to a guy who'd been on a VIP boat on Sunday. After the last race and as LR and Ineos were moving away from the finish area ETNZ did a run down the course. Having just watched two races he said the Kiwis looked "Fucking fast". More importantly though, he's certain they didn't gybe once. Anyone else able to verify this?

"More importantly though, he's certain they didn't gybe once. Anyone else able to verify this?"

 

Apparently they are learning to Gybe next Tuesday.

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America's Cup 2021: Beyond the Cup tracks Team New Zealand amid top-speed rumours

25 Feb, 2021 07:00 AM

Dockside chat has suggested that Emirates Team New Zealand has been hitting speeds of 57 knots so Beyond the Cup's Cheree Kinnear teams up with Whisper Technologies to try find how fast Te Rehutai is sailing. Video / NZME

America's Cup 2021: Beyond the Cup tracks Team New Zealand amid top-speed rumours

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4 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

"More importantly though, he's certain they didn't gybe once. Anyone else able to verify this?"

 

Apparently they are learning to Gybe next Tuesday.

Indeed.

Or fayling that, befor thay hit Sowth Amerika

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6 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

"More importantly though, he's certain they didn't gybe once. Anyone else able to verify this?"

Apparently they are learning to Gybe next Tuesday.

Until then, they have to tack downwind as well.

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Dockside chat has suggested that Emirates Team New Zealand has been hitting speeds of 57 knots so Beyond the Cup's Cheree Kinnear teams up with Whisper Technologies to try find how fast Te Rehutai is sailing. Video / NZME

Video:

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/americas-cup-2021-the-secret-sailor-the-rumour-that-could-spoil-americas-cup/O5HJRMHHCQVMDATIT47DG2EGQM/

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1 hour ago, JJD said:

More sheltered side of the course to anchor up in i guess.

 

2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Why were all the spec boats off to the right, East?, with none to the left? Sharks out there? 

Most of that area is a no anchor zone with some fairly important internet cables etc there.

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So ETNZ was out on the race course before and after the races on the Prada finals...  Justin was on the water and kindly recorded continuous portions of these sessions.  Theoretically, if we compare their lap times to the lap times of the actual races, we should have a pretty good gauge on their speed differential, right? 

The first recording I could find was from after race 6 of the finals.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEhLhXnpY8M&t=870s

ETNZ After race 22   #2 jib     LRPP Race 22   #1.5 jib 11-13 kn
Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time   Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time
00:14:38   S       00:00:00   S    
00:18:14 00:03:36 U 1     00:04:29 00:04:29 U 5  
00:21:05 00:02:51 D 1 00:06:27   00:08:22 00:03:53 D 3 00:08:22
00:25:48 00:04:43 U 6 00:07:34   00:13:40 00:05:18 U 6 00:09:11
            00:17:32 00:03:52 D 2 00:09:10
            00:22:43 00:05:11 U 5 00:09:03
            00:26:34 00:03:51 D 4 00:09:02

"Timestamp" is the time in the video, "Leg Time" is the time for that leg, "Maneuvers" is how many tacks/gybes, and "Lap time" is time for one upwind/downwind lap.

Now, before you say "holy shit that's fast" (which I did at first) I have to note that there was a massive left hand shift at the start of ETNZ's practice race, and they got to the top mark with only 1 tack, and bottom mark with 1 gybe as they rounded the top mark, so the data is... skewed at best.  I think ETNZ leg 3 might be a somewhat closer approximation to a 'real' leg of the race as they did a bit of tacking duel with the chase boat, but I think the course was still pretty skewed.   @Sea Breeze 74, that could be the day your friend saw them doing a lap with no gybe... and they would look insanely fast.

However, on the final day of racing we've got before and after video, which is much more useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnvpVBO1dx8&t=884s

ETNZ Before race 23 #2 jib 10-12kn   LRPP Race 23   #2 jib 9-11kn
Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time   Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time
00:14:43   S       00:00:00   S    
00:19:22 00:04:39 U 5     00:05:24 00:05:24 U 6  
00:23:08 00:03:46 D 3 00:08:25   00:09:54 00:04:30 D 3 00:09:54
00:28:45 00:05:37 U 4 00:09:23   00:15:53 00:05:59 U 4 00:10:29
00:32:34 00:03:49 D 3 00:09:26   00:20:56 00:05:03 D 4 00:11:02
            00:27:03 00:06:07 U 4 00:11:10
            00:31:53 00:04:50 D 3 00:10:57

Notes:  Going off the "virtual eye" wind readings before the race, I believe the wind was about 1 knot stronger during ETNZ practice than during the race, but I could be wrong (happy to be corrected if anyone's got data or was on the water).  Note that the first lap is always about 60 seconds faster than subsequent laps due to the start line being further to windward than the bottom gates. 

So far, looking like ETNZ is about 1 minute faster per lap, depending on how the wind strength compared.

ETNZ After race 24   #1.5 jib 9-10kn   LRPP Race 24   #1.5 jib 9-11kn
Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time   Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time
00:38:07   S       00:00:00   S    
00:42:57 00:04:50 U 3     00:04:53 00:04:53 U 3  
00:47:11 00:04:14 D 3 00:09:04   00:09:16 00:04:23 D 3 00:09:16
            00:15:13 00:05:57 U 6 00:10:20
            00:19:56 00:04:43 D 3 00:10:40
            00:25:37 00:05:41 U 4 00:10:24
            00:30:05 00:04:28 D 3 00:10:09

Note:  We saw the wind die off slightly towards the end of the second race, so I believe wind speeds for ETNZ's laps were about 1 knot slower than the start of the actual race.  I couldn't tell exactly when ETNZ crossed the start line, it could have been anywhere from  38:03  to  38:15, so give or take 5 seconds to the lap time.

According to my wind estimates, even in a slightly lighter wind than the race, ETNZ is still 10 seconds faster than LRPP's race lap:

Takeaways?   Well depending on how you want to interpret the relative wind speeds, you could make the case that ETNZ is quite a bit faster or, at worst, even in speed to Luna Rosa in the 9-13 knot range.   Should make for some interesting cup races!

Anybody have any other video that has a continuous coverage of the before/after training on the other days of the Prada finals?  Would love to have more data to compare.

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7 minutes ago, thumps said:

 

So ETNZ was out on the race course before and after the races on the Prada finals...  Justin was on the water and kindly recorded continuous portions of these sessions.  Theoretically, if we compare their lap times to the lap times of the actual races, we should have a pretty good gauge on their speed differential, right? 

The first recording I could find was from after race 6 of the finals.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEhLhXnpY8M&t=870s

ETNZ After race 22   #2 jib     LRPP Race 22   #1.5 jib 11-13 kn
Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time   Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time
00:14:38   S       00:00:00   S    
00:18:14 00:03:36 U 1     00:04:29 00:04:29 U 5  
00:21:05 00:02:51 D 1 00:06:27   00:08:22 00:03:53 D 3 00:08:22
00:25:48 00:04:43 U 6 00:07:34   00:13:40 00:05:18 U 6 00:09:11
            00:17:32 00:03:52 D 2 00:09:10
            00:22:43 00:05:11 U 5 00:09:03
            00:26:34 00:03:51 D 4 00:09:02

"Timestamp" is the time in the video, "Leg Time" is the time for that leg, "Maneuvers" is how many tacks/gybes, and "Lap time" is time for one upwind/downwind lap.

Now, before you say "holy shit that's fast" (which I did at first) I have to note that there was a massive left hand shift at the start of ETNZ's practice race, and they got to the top mark with only 1 tack, and bottom mark with 1 gybe as they rounded the top mark, so the data is... skewed at best.  I think ETNZ leg 3 might be a somewhat closer approximation to a 'real' leg of the race as they did a bit of tacking duel with the chase boat, but I think the course was still pretty skewed.   @Sea Breeze 74, that could be the day your friend saw them doing a lap with no gybe... and they would look insanely fast.

However, on the final day of racing we've got before and after video, which is much more useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnvpVBO1dx8&t=884s

ETNZ Before race 23 #2 jib 10-12kn   LRPP Race 23   #2 jib 9-11kn
Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time   Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time
00:14:43   S       00:00:00   S    
00:19:22 00:04:39 U 5     00:05:24 00:05:24 U 6  
00:23:08 00:03:46 D 3 00:08:25   00:09:54 00:04:30 D 3 00:09:54
00:28:45 00:05:37 U 4 00:09:23   00:15:53 00:05:59 U 4 00:10:29
00:32:34 00:03:49 D 3 00:09:26   00:20:56 00:05:03 D 4 00:11:02
            00:27:03 00:06:07 U 4 00:11:10
            00:31:53 00:04:50 D 3 00:10:57

Notes:  Going off the "virtual eye" wind readings before the race, I believe the wind was about 1 knot stronger during ETNZ practice than during the race, but I could be wrong (happy to be corrected if anyone's got data or was on the water).  Note that the first lap is always about 60 seconds faster than subsequent laps due to the start line being further to windward than the bottom gates. 

So far, looking like ETNZ is about 1 minute faster per lap, depending on how the wind strength compared.

ETNZ After race 24   #1.5 jib 9-10kn   LRPP Race 24   #1.5 jib 9-11kn
Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time   Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time
00:38:07   S       00:00:00   S    
00:42:57 00:04:50 U 3     00:04:53 00:04:53 U 3  
00:47:11 00:04:14 D 3 00:09:04   00:09:16 00:04:23 D 3 00:09:16
            00:15:13 00:05:57 U 6 00:10:20
            00:19:56 00:04:43 D 3 00:10:40
            00:25:37 00:05:41 U 4 00:10:24
            00:30:05 00:04:28 D 3 00:10:09

Note:  We saw the wind die off slightly towards the end of the second race, so I believe wind speeds for ETNZ's laps were about 1 knot slower than the start of the actual race.  I couldn't tell exactly when ETNZ crossed the start line, it could have been anywhere from  38:03  to  38:15, so give or take 5 seconds to the lap time.

According to my wind estimates, even in a slightly lighter wind than the race, ETNZ is still 10 seconds faster than LRPP's race lap:

Takeaways?   Well depending on how you want to interpret the relative wind speeds, you could make the case that ETNZ is quite a bit faster or, at worst, even in speed to Luna Rosa in the 9-13 knot range.   Should make for some interesting cup races!

Anybody have any other video that has a continuous coverage of the before/after training on the other days of the Prada finals?  Would love to have more data to compare.

Crikey son you need to get out more....

Go for a sail have a few rums...

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10 minutes ago, thumps said:

 

So ETNZ was out on the race course before and after the races on the Prada finals...  Justin was on the water and kindly recorded continuous portions of these sessions.  Theoretically, if we compare their lap times to the lap times of the actual races, we should have a pretty good gauge on their speed differential, right? 

The first recording I could find was from after race 6 of the finals.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEhLhXnpY8M&t=870s

ETNZ After race 22   #2 jib     LRPP Race 22   #1.5 jib 11-13 kn
Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time   Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time
00:14:38   S       00:00:00   S    
00:18:14 00:03:36 U 1     00:04:29 00:04:29 U 5  
00:21:05 00:02:51 D 1 00:06:27   00:08:22 00:03:53 D 3 00:08:22
00:25:48 00:04:43 U 6 00:07:34   00:13:40 00:05:18 U 6 00:09:11
            00:17:32 00:03:52 D 2 00:09:10
            00:22:43 00:05:11 U 5 00:09:03
            00:26:34 00:03:51 D 4 00:09:02

"Timestamp" is the time in the video, "Leg Time" is the time for that leg, "Maneuvers" is how many tacks/gybes, and "Lap time" is time for one upwind/downwind lap.

Now, before you say "holy shit that's fast" (which I did at first) I have to note that there was a massive left hand shift at the start of ETNZ's practice race, and they got to the top mark with only 1 tack, and bottom mark with 1 gybe as they rounded the top mark, so the data is... skewed at best.  I think ETNZ leg 3 might be a somewhat closer approximation to a 'real' leg of the race as they did a bit of tacking duel with the chase boat, but I think the course was still pretty skewed.   @Sea Breeze 74, that could be the day your friend saw them doing a lap with no gybe... and they would look insanely fast.

However, on the final day of racing we've got before and after video, which is much more useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnvpVBO1dx8&t=884s

ETNZ Before race 23 #2 jib 10-12kn   LRPP Race 23   #2 jib 9-11kn
Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time   Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time
00:14:43   S       00:00:00   S    
00:19:22 00:04:39 U 5     00:05:24 00:05:24 U 6  
00:23:08 00:03:46 D 3 00:08:25   00:09:54 00:04:30 D 3 00:09:54
00:28:45 00:05:37 U 4 00:09:23   00:15:53 00:05:59 U 4 00:10:29
00:32:34 00:03:49 D 3 00:09:26   00:20:56 00:05:03 D 4 00:11:02
            00:27:03 00:06:07 U 4 00:11:10
            00:31:53 00:04:50 D 3 00:10:57

Notes:  Going off the "virtual eye" wind readings before the race, I believe the wind was about 1 knot stronger during ETNZ practice than during the race, but I could be wrong (happy to be corrected if anyone's got data or was on the water).  Note that the first lap is always about 60 seconds faster than subsequent laps due to the start line being further to windward than the bottom gates. 

So far, looking like ETNZ is about 1 minute faster per lap, depending on how the wind strength compared.

ETNZ After race 24   #1.5 jib 9-10kn   LRPP Race 24   #1.5 jib 9-11kn
Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time   Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time
00:38:07   S       00:00:00   S    
00:42:57 00:04:50 U 3     00:04:53 00:04:53 U 3  
00:47:11 00:04:14 D 3 00:09:04   00:09:16 00:04:23 D 3 00:09:16
            00:15:13 00:05:57 U 6 00:10:20
            00:19:56 00:04:43 D 3 00:10:40
            00:25:37 00:05:41 U 4 00:10:24
            00:30:05 00:04:28 D 3 00:10:09

Note:  We saw the wind die off slightly towards the end of the second race, so I believe wind speeds for ETNZ's laps were about 1 knot slower than the start of the actual race.  I couldn't tell exactly when ETNZ crossed the start line, it could have been anywhere from  38:03  to  38:15, so give or take 5 seconds to the lap time.

According to my wind estimates, even in a slightly lighter wind than the race, ETNZ is still 10 seconds faster than LRPP's race lap:

Takeaways?   Well depending on how you want to interpret the relative wind speeds, you could make the case that ETNZ is quite a bit faster or, at worst, even in speed to Luna Rosa in the 9-13 knot range.   Should make for some interesting cup races!

Anybody have any other video that has a continuous coverage of the before/after training on the other days of the Prada finals?  Would love to have more data to compare.

Remember race 2 in bermuda? ETNZ and Orifice on opposite sides of the course on then same leg and Orifice went from about 400m behind to right up ETNZs arses in the space of about three quarters of a leg.

If two boats can have that much disparity on the same course at the same time, then using this data for comparison is pointless.

ETNZ will have LRs telemetry as well as their own, so will be able to make inferences due to accurate wind strength and direction measurements. But even then, there are so many other variables they cannot account for that their inferences will be ball park only.

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8 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey son you need to get out more....

Go for a sail have a few rums...

:D  Yeah,  slow day at the office.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Remember race 2 in bermuda? ETNZ and Orifice on opposite sides of the course on then same leg and Orifice went from about 400m behind to right up ETNZs arses in the space of about three quarters of a leg.

If two boats can have that much disparity on the same course at the same time, then using this data for comparison is pointless.

ETNZ will have LRs telemetry as well as their own, so will be able to make inferences due to accurate wind strength and direction measurements. But even then, there are so many other variables they cannot account for that their inferences will be ball park only.

Yes but if their data is consistently faster than LR it would suggest a trend over time.

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1 hour ago, fish7yu said:

America's Cup 2021: Beyond the Cup tracks Team New Zealand amid top-speed rumours

25 Feb, 2021 07:00 AM

Dockside chat has suggested that Emirates Team New Zealand has been hitting speeds of 57 knots so Beyond the Cup's Cheree Kinnear teams up with Whisper Technologies to try find how fast Te Rehutai is sailing. Video / NZME

America's Cup 2021: Beyond the Cup tracks Team New Zealand amid top-speed rumours

Well I've heard, from someone else who has heard, that ETNZ has hit over 65 knots! In only 8 knots of wind speed! They were using Supercavitating Hypersonic Intralaminar Terraflow foils (SHIT foils) to achieve these incredible speeds. Wow, just wow.

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8 minutes ago, uflux said:

Yes but if their data is consistently faster than LR it would suggest a trend over time.

I have been pretty vocal in my opinion that ETNZ will smoke LR.

But this sort of data, whilst interesting, offers zero solid evidence.

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1 hour ago, zillafreak said:

Well I've heard, from someone else who has heard, that ETNZ has hit over 65 knots! In only 8 knots of wind speed! They were using Supercavitating Hypersonic Intralaminar Terraflow foils (SHIT foils) to achieve these incredible speeds. Wow, just wow.

Well fuck me, I read this on SAAC, so it must be true, SHIT foils are the future! 

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9 hours ago, mad said:

Foil cavitation??  Was the kite surfer reliant on foils?

Nope, surface craft. if  3k of beach toy can do it surely 150+mil has a decent chance of 55 kts 

 

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1 hour ago, 45Roller said:

TR has a few followers 

 

Surely there is more than 1 challenging team's worth of spies extra here - others getting a look in for their future efforts?

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1 minute ago, rh3000 said:

Surely there is more than 1 challenging team's worth of spies extra here - others getting a look in for their future efforts?

I doubt that. Future challengers will have plenty of data during the AC itself, why bothering now?

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1 minute ago, strider470 said:

I doubt that. Future challengers will have plenty of data during the AC itself, why bothering now?

Good question, but that's too many boats... the last few days to follow ETNZ at close quarters? They won't be able to do that during the AC...

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9 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

Not really. The hull mass provides crucial downforce for righting moment. The last thing they would want from an AC75 hull is lift.

It would be interesting to see the actual vector diagram of the forces present. it doesn't seem like righting moment is much of an issue for any of these boats. they stay flat no matter what

once you have enough righting moment, you want to reduce drag, be it aero drag by design a slim as possible profile, or drag on foils by reducing weight on them.

but i don't think even at 40+kts the shape of the hull acts as any significant sort of aerofoil

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My chase boat guess:

2 ETNZ chase boats with the masts,

3 challenger chase boats in a group,

one media / tourist

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2 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

My chase boat guess:

2 ETNZ chase boats with the masts,

3 challenger chase boats in a group,

one media / tourist

2 ETNZ chase boats with the masts,

3 challenger chase boats in a group,

one Alinghi purchasing department

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7 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

Like any other object moving through a fluid, the drag force on a foil goes up with the square of velocity assuming constant geometry.  Google "Drag Equation"

I don't need to but thanks. I think you missed the point.

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7 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

That 62 knots number was bullshit! :D 
 

Max talked about the potential of an AC75 V2 hitting 60 knots but since you can’t alternate foils (or morph them enough) to cross from sub to super cavitation shapes, well.. I will very surprised if that speed happens in AC36! 

Indeed. Keep in mind though that the mode that is being used, super cavitation is not an option.

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6 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

 

The biggest challenge for the AC75s once on foils, is to balance the heeling force against the limited righting moment they have. Whilst at the same time balancing the other 2 moments, plus the 3 directions of forces.

Facepalm.

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23 hours ago, Lakrass said:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/235432/Playing-the-long-game

The article has an intriguing point with 62 kn being fastest reported speed by ETNZ. Was sure to find the response here somewhere with the speed being the explanation for flipping a seagull passing nearby the boat on some video. Anyone knows where this number is coming from? Pretty impressive if confirmed.

I had heard a number of 60.3kts, heading down towards Nth Head from up the coast a bit...

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5 hours ago, thumps said:

 

So ETNZ was out on the race course before and after the races on the Prada finals...  Justin was on the water and kindly recorded continuous portions of these sessions.  Theoretically, if we compare their lap times to the lap times of the actual races, we should have a pretty good gauge on their speed differential, right? 

The first recording I could find was from after race 6 of the finals.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEhLhXnpY8M&t=870s

ETNZ After race 22   #2 jib     LRPP Race 22   #1.5 jib 11-13 kn
Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time   Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time
00:14:38   S       00:00:00   S    
00:18:14 00:03:36 U 1     00:04:29 00:04:29 U 5  
00:21:05 00:02:51 D 1 00:06:27   00:08:22 00:03:53 D 3 00:08:22
00:25:48 00:04:43 U 6 00:07:34   00:13:40 00:05:18 U 6 00:09:11
            00:17:32 00:03:52 D 2 00:09:10
            00:22:43 00:05:11 U 5 00:09:03
            00:26:34 00:03:51 D 4 00:09:02

"Timestamp" is the time in the video, "Leg Time" is the time for that leg, "Maneuvers" is how many tacks/gybes, and "Lap time" is time for one upwind/downwind lap.

Now, before you say "holy shit that's fast" (which I did at first) I have to note that there was a massive left hand shift at the start of ETNZ's practice race, and they got to the top mark with only 1 tack, and bottom mark with 1 gybe as they rounded the top mark, so the data is... skewed at best.  I think ETNZ leg 3 might be a somewhat closer approximation to a 'real' leg of the race as they did a bit of tacking duel with the chase boat, but I think the course was still pretty skewed.   @Sea Breeze 74, that could be the day your friend saw them doing a lap with no gybe... and they would look insanely fast.

However, on the final day of racing we've got before and after video, which is much more useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnvpVBO1dx8&t=884s

ETNZ Before race 23 #2 jib 10-12kn   LRPP Race 23   #2 jib 9-11kn
Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time   Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time
00:14:43   S       00:00:00   S    
00:19:22 00:04:39 U 5     00:05:24 00:05:24 U 6  
00:23:08 00:03:46 D 3 00:08:25   00:09:54 00:04:30 D 3 00:09:54
00:28:45 00:05:37 U 4 00:09:23   00:15:53 00:05:59 U 4 00:10:29
00:32:34 00:03:49 D 3 00:09:26   00:20:56 00:05:03 D 4 00:11:02
            00:27:03 00:06:07 U 4 00:11:10
            00:31:53 00:04:50 D 3 00:10:57

Notes:  Going off the "virtual eye" wind readings before the race, I believe the wind was about 1 knot stronger during ETNZ practice than during the race, but I could be wrong (happy to be corrected if anyone's got data or was on the water).  Note that the first lap is always about 60 seconds faster than subsequent laps due to the start line being further to windward than the bottom gates. 

So far, looking like ETNZ is about 1 minute faster per lap, depending on how the wind strength compared.

ETNZ After race 24   #1.5 jib 9-10kn   LRPP Race 24   #1.5 jib 9-11kn
Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time   Timestamp Leg Time Leg Maneuvers Lap time
00:38:07   S       00:00:00   S    
00:42:57 00:04:50 U 3     00:04:53 00:04:53 U 3  
00:47:11 00:04:14 D 3 00:09:04   00:09:16 00:04:23 D 3 00:09:16
            00:15:13 00:05:57 U 6 00:10:20
            00:19:56 00:04:43 D 3 00:10:40
            00:25:37 00:05:41 U 4 00:10:24
            00:30:05 00:04:28 D 3 00:10:09

Note:  We saw the wind die off slightly towards the end of the second race, so I believe wind speeds for ETNZ's laps were about 1 knot slower than the start of the actual race.  I couldn't tell exactly when ETNZ crossed the start line, it could have been anywhere from  38:03  to  38:15, so give or take 5 seconds to the lap time.

According to my wind estimates, even in a slightly lighter wind than the race, ETNZ is still 10 seconds faster than LRPP's race lap:

Takeaways?   Well depending on how you want to interpret the relative wind speeds, you could make the case that ETNZ is quite a bit faster or, at worst, even in speed to Luna Rosa in the 9-13 knot range.   Should make for some interesting cup races!

Anybody have any other video that has a continuous coverage of the before/after training on the other days of the Prada finals?  Would love to have more data to compare.

In God we trust, all others bring data.

Thank you for this.

The shift may also be the reason it was noted earlier that someone saw ETNZ bang a one gybe leeward leg. EDIT, Ah, you mentioned that, sorry.

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I'd think if you're following another team's boat, it would be very useful to do it with two boats - that way you can triangulate your observations for added accuracy.

Accurately judging the speed of a boat by sailing a parallel course is very difficult and full of noise in the data caused by short variations in course both by the observed boat and the observer. If you have two boats, you get an additional level of measurements that greatly reduces that noise

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6 hours ago, Priscilla said:

At 60 knots the AC races would be 10 minutes long where is the fun in that.:P

 

 

Seeing the mortified faces in crowd shots of LR fans, who are watching for another 15mins while their boat finishes?

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7 hours ago, porthos said:

And their hair was perfect.

INCORRECT

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIukfcLnBak/

Blair Tuke has done all the hard grind for the classic kiwi mullett, but then had to get rid of it as Dalts didn't think the look was good for the sponsors.(don't believe what he says about the weight...that's all adding to righting moment).

Surely we've watched enough youtube live streamed from NZ at stupid o'clock by now to know that things are a bit different there. This is what they call perfect hair (and I agree)

https://web.facebook.com/thebackyardbros/posts/4098973483460376

 

 

 

 

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New video by Pietro and Vittorio, I'm sure they're gonna do the English Version, so I'll do just a preview translation :

- Due to the lowered deck configuration, with the two high "pods" at both sides, ETNZ added mainsail area could be not performing at best (Venturi Effect doesn't apply)

- The last interpretation (N.91) about the rudder seems to show that they wants to change the hight of the rudder between races, or just before the beginning, so they can have always the same flight altitude in every sea condition. This is something very clever, that LR could try to copy

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11 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

F1 has lost its way.  It is no longer a design competition.  There are limits on how much power they can produce from their engines

Only the Carnot limit. All that is regulated is fuel flow rate and maximum rpm.

It should be noted also that RedBull won four world championships with a high drag low power high downforce solution.

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