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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

They towed out around 11am and the breeze was light and puffy to start with. Foiled down the Channel and headed out to the Bays. The breeze started to build around midday and they got some long runs i

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

they have the righting moment and power, those are things the kite guys don't have 

Lets see one of them do it.

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5 hours ago, strider470 said:

I must say I'm not worried by this super speed claiming. If it's true, amen, game over, good for the Kiwis. We, as Italians, already achieved a historic result with the Prada Cup.

If it's not true, well, their problem. We play. Game on. Nothing to lose, everything to win. :)

I’d also be wary of any claims as well. 

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18 minutes ago, 45Roller said:

Agreed, definitely super cavitating the whole time

It's more than 70 knots definitely.

I've been told 70 knots is their top speed in reverse.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

It's more than 70 knots definitely.

I've been told 70 knots is their top speed in reverse.

I misread it was 170 knots.

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Just now, jaysper said:

So they were taking it easy then?

Would have been faster but the Cunningham was broke.

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Just now, strider470 said:

Howard

Wowsers! I didn't realise Italian also got old timey rubbish American TV.

Poor you guys. You gave them pizza and pasta and they give you Happy fucking Days.

Although, you also gave them the mob. So......call it square?

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Just now, jaysper said:

Wowsers! I didn't realise Italian also got old timey rubbish American TV.

Poor you guys. You gave them pizza and pasta and they give you Happy fucking Days.

Although, you also gave them the mob. So......call it square?

Heiiii you forget Arthur Fonzarelli

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Although, you also gave them the mob. So.....

Right rabble, right time. To be fair, the Irish had already outstayed their welcome.

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1 minute ago, Paddywackery said:

We joined the police :P

Join them or shoot them the eternal Irish dilemma

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9 hours ago, Zaal said:

Due to the lowered deck configuration, with the two high "pods" at both sides, ETNZ added mainsail area could be not performing at best (Venturi Effect doesn't apply)

Surely the height of the pods is not a significant issue given the apparent wind angles they sail at

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42 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Fuck it, you taught me something.

Thanks a lot!:angry:  

That's my quota for the month all used up. 

You should have had a suspect. The cool guy is always Italian ;)

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1 minute ago, 1eyedkiwi said:

I find it surprising that ETNZ's PR team aren't trying to hose down the rumors re TR's boat speed.  There is no upside to people thinking TR is going to be super fast.

Sure there is. 

You want the other side to believe that you have a faster boat. It will get in their heads. They will be overly aggressive to compensate and make mistakes.

  Back in the day, a sailor I used to crew for would wax lyrical on the evening before big regattas about how the boat was going so damn fast in practice , never felt so good, just shit off a shovel quick upwind.   The net result was that nobody started near us and nobody risked a marginal lee bow tack, The imaginary boat speed advantage manifested an actual advantage on the race course.   If we finished 2nd or 3rd....he would never omit to congratulate the winner for great racing and beating us despite our fast boat......"always maintain the fear"....he would say.

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8 hours ago, dullers said:

Did he say fairly fast or fucking fast? Re the Gybe. I am sure they would not have forgotten how to gybe and finally did he fall off the boat or crawl off under his own steam? 

I deserve everything I got for that post :D

Dude is adamant they were "fucking fast" although probably said with much more of a slur as I believe he was actually hosed off the boat. 

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33 minutes ago, 1eyedkiwi said:

I find it surprising that ETNZ's PR team aren't trying to hose down the rumors re TR's boat speed.  There is no upside to people thinking TR is going to be super fast.

Too late for all that. It's all done & dusted already....

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28 minutes ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

I deserve everything I got for that post :D

Dude is adamant they were "fucking fast" although probably said with much more of a slur as I believe he was actually hosed off the boat. 

We all had fun and you took it in good spirit.

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“Dalton, the toughest of all the hard men in international yachting, deserves to be the hero who brought the Cup home in 2017, retained it in 2021, worked with the Government and RNZYS to keep Team New Zealand together, found new sponsors to replace Emirates, passed the whole structure to the next generation of Kiwi sailors, and celebrated with all of us when Te Rehutai 2 successfully defends the Cup in Auckland in 2023.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/matthew-hooton-americas-cup-why-team-nz-does-not-hold-all-cards-over-2023-location/6T36JPNCNVP4FJZPENYZSN3KWE/?fbclid=IwAR3awTtzOQBu9BMWFRS_QJ6uyNoV_rmBItN_L_h0wYNltl5dbu083RTo92k

paywalled!

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In Wellington, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, Finance and Sports Minister Grant Robertson and Economic Development Minister Stuart Nash also have a fortnight to resolve whether to embrace the Cup specifically, and sailing generally, as essential to New Zealand's economic, technological and cultural story, or dismiss it as an idle indulgence for the rich.

More personally, Emirates Team New Zealand chief executive Grant Dalton faces the question of what his life in sailing has been for.

Around 1.67 million New Zealanders participate in marine sports and more watch Team New Zealand on TV than the All Blacks.
The country's peculiar relationship with the America's Cup goes back to the KZ7 summer of 1986/87. That laid the foundation for a succession of great New Zealand yachting triumphs in every major event.
It also built a New Zealand marine industry capable of humbling the United States, the most technologically advanced nation in history, and marketing its high-value products accordingly.
 
New Zealand's financial and emotional investment in the Cup — and the obvious returns in foreign currency and national pride — lie behind the shock when the Herald revealed that Team New Zealand management has been shopping the next event to overseas venues.
The assumed rule, albeit breached by Société Nautique de Genève and Golden Gate Yacht Club, was that to host the America's Cup you had to build a boat and win it. Like the Ranfurly Shield, hosting was the real prize.
Ardern, Robertson, Nash and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment had no idea of the foreign pitch process the Herald revealed, despite taxpayers putting in $136 million for Cup-related infrastructure costs for the 2020/21 event.
Similarly, Phil Goff's Auckland Council wasn't asked to participate, despite investing $113m of ratepayers' money into infrastructure and other costs for 2020/21.
 
Team New Zealand's moves were clearly news to members of the RNZYS, which is the legal holder of the Cup, even if Team New Zealand's pitch document claims it will be "the new defender and rights-holder of the event and essentially is the key controller and decision-maker of all aspects of the event".
Ardern, Robertson, Nash and Goff may be tempted to speculate whether Dalton is using foreign bids to pressure them for more cash, or if his vision really is to take the Cup offshore for the $80m hosting fee allegedly previously offered by Abu Dhabi and Sochi.
Either way, any negotiator would want to get some leverage.
Dalton rightly argues we risk repeating 2000, when foreign billionaires offered victorious Team New Zealand members money they couldn't refuse.
 
But even if another venue is really offering an $80m hosting fee during a global pandemic, Team New Zealand couldn't access it for at least three months anyway — the time it is contractually obliged to first negotiate in good faith with Ardern's Government.
In the meantime, the poaching risk that Dalton says drives him remains acute.
But it also means, for at least three months, that the only large chequebook Dalton can realistically access is Robertson's. The sports-mad Finance Minister is almost certain to follow Bill English and Steven Joyce and offer an immediate $5m to retain talent, or perhaps a little more — but with conditions, including around location.
The taxpayer's chequebook is not Robertson's only leverage.
The precise legal relationships between RNZYS, Team New Zealand and America's Cup Events are opaque, but one thing is indisputable. The controlling authority for the America's Cup is the New York Supreme Court, and the only rules it cares about are the 1857 Deed of Gift.
The deed is unambiguous: "It is distinctly understood that the Cup is to be the property of the Club, subject to the provisions of this deed, and not the property of the owner or owners of any vessel winning a match."
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Were RNZYS and Team New Zealand ever to clash in the New York courts, both sides know the squadron would win. Should it choose, RNZYS can confidently assert its rights.
If the RNZYS, which holds the Cup, gets close to the Government, which holds the only short-term chequebook, Dalton has nowhere to go.
If they judge Team New Zealand won't negotiate in good faith, there is a further option.
Beyond the defending club, the only party the deed recognises is the yacht club from another country that first lodges a valid challenge, and meets certain tests.
After Michael Fay's surprise challenge in 1987, both sides in an America's Cup match arrange a preferred challenger to hand them the necessary paperwork just in case their boat wins.
Having fallen out with the Italians, Team New Zealand management is apparently talking to the UK's Royal Yacht Squadron. But there is no reason under the deed that the RNZYS couldn't arrange for, say, the Royal Perth Yacht Club to hand its commodore the paperwork the instant Te Rehutai crosses the line. All decisions about the next regatta would then be negotiated between RNZYS and Royal Perth.
None of this should be necessary. Dalton must know he risks a public relations debacle.
Hopefully, he knows his destiny is not to be the villain who sold New Zealand's Cup for 30 pieces of silver. Instead, the toughest of all the hard men in international yachting deserves to be the hero who brought the Cup home in 2017, retained it in 2021, worked with the Government and RNZYS to keep Team New Zealand together, found new sponsors to replace Emirates, passed the whole structure to the next generation of Kiwi sailors, and celebrated with all of us when Te Rehutai 2 successfully defends the cup in Auckland in 2023.
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1 hour ago, 45Roller said:
1 hour ago, Kiwing said:

@45Roller Thanks for the cryptocurrency link as well = worth a watch?

 Which one mate? :)

Was just watching an interesting clip on CNN listening to both sides of the argument about Bitcoin. I’m still sceptical but it’s still going. 

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

Sure there is. 

You want the other side to believe that you have a faster boat. It will get in their heads. They will be overly aggressive to compensate and make mistakes.

  Back in the day, a sailor I used to crew for would wax lyrical on the evening before big regattas about how the boat was going so damn fast in practice , never felt so good, just shit off a shovel quick upwind.   The net result was that nobody started near us and nobody risked a marginal lee bow tack, The imaginary boat speed advantage manifested an actual advantage on the race course.   If we finished 2nd or 3rd....he would never omit to congratulate the winner for great racing and beating us despite our fast boat......"always maintain the fear"....he would say.

Can’t believe people fell for that for too long, the bars are full of that, worldwide. ;)

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47 minutes ago, Barnyb said:
Were RNZYS and Team New Zealand ever to clash in the New York courts, both sides know the squadron would win. Should it choose, RNZYS can confidently assert its rights.
If the RNZYS, which holds the Cup, gets close to the Government, which holds the only short-term chequebook, Dalton has nowhere to go.
If they judge Team New Zealand won't negotiate in good faith, there is a further option.
Beyond the defending club, the only party the deed recognises is the yacht club from another country that first lodges a valid challenge, and meets certain tests.
After Michael Fay's surprise challenge in 1987, both sides in an America's Cup match arrange a preferred challenger to hand them the necessary paperwork just in case their boat wins.
Having fallen out with the Italians, Team New Zealand management is apparently talking to the UK's Royal Yacht Squadron. But there is no reason under the deed that the RNZYS couldn't arrange for, say, the Royal Perth Yacht Club to hand its commodore the paperwork the instant Te Rehutai crosses the line. All decisions about the next regatta would then be negotiated between RNZYS and Royal Perth.
None of this should be necessary. Dalton must know he risks a public relations debacle.
Hopefully, he knows his destiny is not to be the villain who sold New Zealand's Cup for 30 pieces of silver. Instead, the toughest of all the hard men in international yachting deserves to be the hero who brought the Cup home in 2017, retained it in 2021, worked with the Government and RNZYS to keep Team New Zealand together, found new sponsors to replace Emirates, passed the whole structure to the next generation of Kiwi sailors, and celebrated with all of us when Te Rehutai 2 successfully defends the cup in Auckland in 2023.

Things just got really interesting. 

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44 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

More personally, Emirates Team New Zealand chief executive Grant Dalton faces the question of what his life in sailing has been for.

I suspect that it's a mixture of clickbait and over-thinking the position.  GD is a fiercely proud Kiwi with a ton of smarts and so are the rest of the movers and shakers in ETNZ.  He's quite correct not to share motives and strategy as that will reduce leverage.  He understands how much it means emotionally to the NZ public and financially to NZ business interests.  I'd lay money that  if and when it all comes out, there won't be anything which damages NZ in any way (subject to us actually winning the cup).  It might well take a slightly different direction in terms of the lead-up though to get a stronger world-wide interest and number of competitors. 

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52 minutes ago, Barnyb said:
Were RNZYS and Team New Zealand ever to clash in the New York courts, both sides know the squadron would win. Should it choose, RNZYS can confidently assert its rights.
If the RNZYS, which holds the Cup, gets close to the Government, which holds the only short-term chequebook, Dalton has nowhere to go.
If they judge Team New Zealand won't negotiate in good faith, there is a further option.
Beyond the defending club, the only party the deed recognises is the yacht club from another country that first lodges a valid challenge, and meets certain tests.
After Michael Fay's surprise challenge in 1987, both sides in an America's Cup match arrange a preferred challenger to hand them the necessary paperwork just in case their boat wins.
Having fallen out with the Italians, Team New Zealand management is apparently talking to the UK's Royal Yacht Squadron. But there is no reason under the deed that the RNZYS couldn't arrange for, say, the Royal Perth Yacht Club to hand its commodore the paperwork the instant Te Rehutai crosses the line. All decisions about the next regatta would then be negotiated between RNZYS and Royal Perth.
None of this should be necessary. Dalton must know he risks a public relations debacle.
Hopefully, he knows his destiny is not to be the villain who sold New Zealand's Cup for 30 pieces of silver. Instead, the toughest of all the hard men in international yachting deserves to be the hero who brought the Cup home in 2017, retained it in 2021, worked with the Government and RNZYS to keep Team New Zealand together, found new sponsors to replace Emirates, passed the whole structure to the next generation of Kiwi sailors, and celebrated with all of us when Te Rehutai 2 successfully defends the cup in Auckland in 2023.

Agree, very much a Hail Mary move from GD. His thinking doesn't stack up.

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10 minutes ago, The Advocate said:

Agree, very much a Hail Mary move from GD. His thinking doesn't stack up.

Do people trust the journalists in this story? Or is it a Magnus story? 

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ohh the sacrifice in the name of your country!

Tinder Ban for Emirates Team New Zealand

 

In light of the recent COVID-19 scare in Auckland, New Zealand, the Emirates Team New Zealand heath managers have advised that all sailors, shore crew and even those who are desk bound, to steer clear of supermarkets, department and hardware stores.

 

https://www.livesaildie.com/tinder-ban-for-emirates-team-new-zealand/?fbclid=IwAR23LnQ6cE3ESl0jbAjZP1QQy3jLvfPM3jvsBoHsLDN5xbh4iMJ-LRcJ2CY

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18 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

Keel (and foil) lift for the VORs and IMOCAs is to reduce wetted area, as they don't fully foil.

The biggest challenge for the AC75s once on foils, is to balance the heeling force against the limited righting moment they have. Whilst at the same time balancing the other 2 moments, plus the 3 directions of forces.

Nope, it's to reduce drag via reducing both effective displacement (wave drag) and wetted area (skin friction drag), plenty of designer interviews around that say that.

AC75s have shedloads of RM, 7.5 tonnes of boat x a lever arm between the centre of gravity and the centre of lift of somewhere around 2.5, maybe even 3 metres.  The Centre of lift (CL) will in theory be on to the straight line between the lift centres of the immersed foil and rudder, and given that the foil carries most of the boat's weight the overall CL will be just behind and inside the foil.

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29 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

ohh the sacrifice in the name of your country!

Tinder Ban for Emirates Team New Zealand

 

In light of the recent COVID-19 scare in Auckland, New Zealand, the Emirates Team New Zealand heath managers have advised that all sailors, shore crew and even those who are desk bound, to steer clear of supermarkets, department and hardware stores.

 

https://www.livesaildie.com/tinder-ban-for-emirates-team-new-zealand/?fbclid=IwAR23LnQ6cE3ESl0jbAjZP1QQy3jLvfPM3jvsBoHsLDN5xbh4iMJ-LRcJ2CY

Still good to go on Grinder though?

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1 minute ago, idontwan2know said:

More fantasies of RNZYS breaking from ETNZ, I see.

Whatever the legalities may be, Dalts calls the shots and if he feels hosting it elsewhere is the right thing to do, that's what will happen.

LOLOLOLDoGLOLOLOLOL

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2 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Still good to go on Grinder though?

@Baconator is hopeful. Until he gets the call from America Magic to head up the next campaign, he’s running short on cash. 

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26 minutes ago, Regular Swimmer said:

Next up Ladies and Gentlemen - Luna Rossa will jump a shark. 

At over 50 knots it's more slicing than jumping the poor animal I'm afraid, but thanks for the tip. :D

Grazie, la sua soddisfazione è il nostro miglior premio

 

 

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3 minutes ago, jaysper said:

That other AC75 of theirs looks to have some pretty good VMG.

I wonder why they don't race that one in the cup instead?

I like your thinking mate, it'll be just like San Diego, everyone will think that's the race boat, then they show up with other AC72 and destroy the opposition 

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26 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Still good to go on Grinder though?

A recent cluster of COVID-19, which was found on Valentines Day, also sparked the continued ban on the use of dating apps such as Tinder, Bumble, Hinge and Grindr.

Dalts to the boys; "Sorry you'll have to raise your own sails for a bit, but win the cup and I promise you will be drowning in the genitals of your chosing

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1 minute ago, 45Roller said:

I like your thinking mate, it'll be just like San Diego, everyone will think that's the race boat, then they show up with other AC72 and destroy the opposition 

Damn straight! Paint Te-Rehutai RED.

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4 hours ago, dullers said:

That must be over 70 knots.

 

4 hours ago, mad said:

Needs to 75 or its not really pushing the boundaries. 

You forget we use the metric system in NZ so it's 70 m/s obviously. 

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9 minutes ago, TimmyHate said:

A recent cluster of COVID-19, which was found on Valentines Day, also sparked the continued ban on the use of dating apps such as Tinder, Bumble, Hinge and Grindr.

Dalts to the boys; "Sorry you'll have to raise your own sails for a bit, but win the cup and I promise you will be drowning in the genitals of your chosing

Dalts to the boys on the 15th March; Look on the bright side lads, you are the first Kiwis to have ever been fucked by some red hot Italians 7 days in a row.

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5 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Dalts to the boys on the 15th March; Look on the bright side lads, you are the first Kiwis to have ever been fucked by some red hot Italians 7 days in a row.

hmm -- WW2 after VE dae?

 

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I've had a week off videos, but I thought this video from Vittorio d'Albertas is worth a watch as a balance to the video I put out about the mast foot on ETNZ. 

Myself and Rob actually debated back and forth about the issues the Italian raise. How valuable is the sail area in the 'trench'? The ETNZ chaps were running tell tales on those pods just after the launch, so it's surely been an area of validation for the team themselves. 

My initial thought was aligned with the Italians, in that the windward pod would create a bit of an obstacle for the air arriving to the sail, and that the tunnel may create a 'choke point' which the air spills out of. 

Rob on the other hand was more convinced. He feels the pods are far enough aft they the wind isn't really going over them. And that the leeward pod may help keep flow attached around the leeward side.

Hard to know for sure... I guess answering these questions is why we have boat races! 

 

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8 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I've had a week off videos, but I thought this video from Vittorio d'Albertas is worth a watch as a balance to the video I put out about the mast foot on ETNZ. 

Myself and Rob actually debated back and forth about the issues the Italian raise. How valuable is the sail area in the 'trench'? The ETNZ chaps were running tell tales on those pods just after the launch, so it's surely been an area of validation for the team themselves. 

My initial thought was aligned with the Italians, in that the windward pod would create a bit of an obstacle for the air arriving to the sail, and that the tunnel may create a 'choke point' which the air spills out of. 

Rob on the other hand was more convinced. He feels the pods are far enough aft they the wind isn't really going over them. And that the leeward pod may help keep flow attached around the leeward side.

Hard to know for sure... I guess answering these questions is why we have boat races! 

 

It helps that the apparent wind 8s well forward I guess.

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1 hour ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I've had a week off videos, but I thought this video from Vittorio d'Albertas is worth a watch as a balance to the video I put out about the mast foot on ETNZ. 

Myself and Rob actually debated back and forth about the issues the Italian raise. How valuable is the sail area in the 'trench'? The ETNZ chaps were running tell tales on those pods just after the launch, so it's surely been an area of validation for the team themselves. 

My initial thought was aligned with the Italians, in that the windward pod would create a bit of an obstacle for the air arriving to the sail, and that the tunnel may create a 'choke point' which the air spills out of. 

Rob on the other hand was more convinced. He feels the pods are far enough aft they the wind isn't really going over them. And that the leeward pod may help keep flow attached around the leeward side.

Hard to know for sure... I guess answering these questions is why we have boat races! 

 

This seems like it would be a pretty easy thing to model.  Tnz wouldn't have committed to that hull and deck shape unless they were sure there was a benefit.

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3 minutes ago, Regular Swimmer said:

This seems like it would be a pretty easy thing to model.  Tnz wouldn't have committed to that hull and deck shape unless they were sure there was a benefit.

I agree

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4 hours ago, Barnyb said:

“Dalton, the toughest of all the hard men in international yachting, deserves to be the hero who brought the Cup home in 2017, retained it in 2021, worked with the Government and RNZYS to keep Team New Zealand together, found new sponsors to replace Emirates, passed the whole structure to the next generation of Kiwi sailors, and celebrated with all of us when Te Rehutai 2 successfully defends the Cup in Auckland in 2023.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/matthew-hooton-americas-cup-why-team-nz-does-not-hold-all-cards-over-2023-location/6T36JPNCNVP4FJZPENYZSN3KWE/?fbclid=IwAR3awTtzOQBu9BMWFRS_QJ6uyNoV_rmBItN_L_h0wYNltl5dbu083RTo92k

paywalled!

Firefox with Bypass Paywalls extension. Done. 

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58 minutes ago, Regular Swimmer said:

This seems like it would be a pretty easy thing to model.  Tnz wouldn't have committed to that hull and deck shape unless they were sure there was a benefit.

I feel they are as much trying to convince themselves as they are their viewers. :mellow:

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1 hour ago, Regular Swimmer said:

This seems like it would be a pretty easy thing to model.  Tnz wouldn't have committed to that hull and deck shape unless they were sure there was a benefit.

Correct.

The difficult part of the idea is not validation, but rather coming up with the idea itself.

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4 hours ago, mad said:

@Baconator is hopeful. Until he gets the call from America Magic to head up the next campaign, he’s running short on cash. 

I just did a count....

 

Ever wondered why nobody, zilch, nada, zero ...  People reply to your posts...

:D

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16 hours ago, Zaal said:

New video by Pietro and Vittorio, I'm sure they're gonna do the English Version, so I'll do just a preview translation :

- Due to the lowered deck configuration, with the two high "pods" at both sides, ETNZ added mainsail area could be not performing at best (Venturi Effect doesn't apply)

- The last interpretation (N.91) about the rudder seems to show that they wants to change the hight of the rudder between races, or just before the beginning, so they can have always the same flight altitude in every sea condition. This is something very clever, that LR could try to copy

Will be interesting to listen to the English version... I'm not clear as to what they mean by venturi effect?
image.png.c07fabc1047df46784771311349c03c4.png

The change in rudder height indeed sounds worthwhile. The foils have an Angle of Incidence (I think it's ~2°). From around 35 knots boat speed, they would want the foil to be at neutral AoA, and use just a slight flap angle for boat altitude, and longitudinal balance.

An increased sea state means they need to fly slightly higher, which would reduce the depth of immersed rudder if keeping the boat at it's design pitch, so using an extended rudder stock counters this nicely.      IMO. :)

 

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5 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

AC75s have shedloads of RM, 7.5 tonnes of boat x a lever arm between the centre of gravity and the centre of lift of somewhere around 2.5, maybe even 3 metres.  The Centre of lift (CL) will in theory be on to the straight line between the lift centres of the immersed foil and rudder, and given that the foil carries most of the boat's weight the overall CL will be just behind and inside the foil.

Sounds like you are only considering the forces in the "z" plane.

When looking at Heel vs RM moments, it's a different problem. The RM can only vary by a slight amount, governed by the ± forces from the rudder foil.  However sail forces can vary enormously. The resultant Heel moment has to be balanced by the RM moment.  You will have noticed that they reduce sail area in just moderate wind strengths, and even then still need to use more twist and less upper camber to help minimise Heel moment, thus lowering the CE.

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