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3 hours ago, SimonN said:

You have a misinformed sense of history. The Deed of Gift does say that it is between nations, but it doesn't say that it is between nationals of that nation. Have you ever doubted that the NYYC was being represented at any time by anything other than an American team? Yet from the very start of the AC, boats were crewed by sailors of other nationalities than the challenging club, even with skippers from other nations. The founding fathers had no issue over nationality of the sailors and there was never an intent that there should be a nationality clause. Anybody who quotes the "nations" clause as justification for a nationality requirement is ignoring history and intent of the DoG to justify a practice brought in to make it easier for the defender. It's even more ironic that a Kiwi calls for the event to be between nations when the his team is called EMIRATES tnz.

Agreed. The Cup competition was entered on the yachts (represented in country of origin by their respective clubs). It had nothing at all to do with the sailors, as you point out.

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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

Yes, quite light but I didn't see all the afternoon's sailing, can only comment on later in the day, when Britannia 2 was running a #1 jib and foiling around no problem. They look quite quick at times

They towed out around 11am and the breeze was light and puffy to start with. Foiled down the Channel and headed out to the Bays. The breeze started to build around midday and they got some long runs i

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

For Australians, dual citizenship is available after living in New Zealand for 5 years, IIRC.

Doesn't need it, he is covered by being in the team for the last two years. The big thing with the new rules is no one can jump ship as of today. Makes Dalts life easier as any Kiwi sailor is in his team or no team.

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20 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Doesn't need it, he is covered by being in the team for the last two years. The big thing with the new rules is no one can jump ship as of today. Makes Dalts life easier as any Kiwi sailor is in his team or no team.

Are there actually new Rules already - or is this just under discussion?

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31 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Doesn't need it, he is covered by being in the team for the last two years. The big thing with the new rules is no one can jump ship as of today. Makes Dalts life easier as any Kiwi sailor is in his team or no team.

Ashby has dual citizenship, as does Jimmy, as do guys like Joey Newton as well.

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Ashby has dual citizenship, as does Jimmy, as do guys like Joey Newton as well.

If he doesn’t have a passport already, someone in Wellington should print one overnight and deliver it the morning (no application required)

For a photo they can use one where he is holding the Cup

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6 minutes ago, Gissie said:

New rules. Nationality rules as of today.

I'm not familiar with this side of the AC...  who holds the power to ratify new Rules for the next AC?

Especially since the DoG doesn't refer to "nationality" per se, as mentioned in above comments.

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18 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

I'm not familiar with this side of the AC...  who holds the power to ratify new Rules for the next AC?

Especially since the DoG doesn't refer to "nationality" per se, as mentioned in above comments.

We need a diagram, with lots of arrows, of the opposing forces involved in the protocol of an AC match.

It's not so much fluid dynamics as a pissing contest.

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22 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

I'm not familiar with this side of the AC...  who holds the power to ratify new Rules for the next AC?

Especially since the DoG doesn't refer to "nationality" per se, as mentioned in above comments.

The defender and COR get to decide what rules they will work with. So ETNZ and Ineos have come up with them.

Passport holder of any teams country, as of today. Or has been a crew member of one of the existing teams for 2 or more years as of yesterday. So no sailor can change teams or sail for a team from another country. Dals can relax about his guys accepting any offers now.

Also teams need to accept they will race the 75's for the next two cups, even though such a clause is not enforceable.

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The Nationality issue is not a new one:

AFAIR , After AUSTRALIA II victory in...198? , I remember Alan Bond saying that in the new rules for the defenders, it will ne mandatory for the sails to be made with kangaroo skin only.

To bring this joke, probably he has been upset a little bit by big bad Denis dirty games.

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the two cup thing for the 75.

 

unlike everyone else on here i am not a qualified legal council but was pondering..

as long as either NZ or GB win the cup its entirely enforceable as they will just chose to use them again as should either lose the other will be COR and role into another series with 75s as the boat of choice 

only if another team decided to bin the class having just won in it and then it would be NZ or GB going legal for breach of the challenger agreement.

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

the two cup thing for the 75.

 

unlike everyone else on here i am not a qualified legal council but was pondering..

as long as either NZ or GB win the cup its entirely enforceable as they will just chose to use them again as should either lose the other will be COR and role into another series with 75s as the boat of choice 

only if another team decided to bin the class having just won in it and then it would be NZ or GB going legal for breach of the challenger agreement.

exactly this mate, same as the 5 teams signed in London before the 35th edition

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6 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Ashby has dual citizenship, as does Jimmy, as do guys like Joey Newton as well.

Jimmy has citizenship of Australia and US . Does he also have Italian citizenship?

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22 hours ago, pusslicker said:

That's why the public loved it. The reason you only have a few thousand people watching it now is that it is becoming too working class with guys like PB with an accent that sounds like he just came out of a fucking coal mine and zero personality. I think people want to see shit that is only about money and rich fucks. 

Need some Kardashians.

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If they were remotely operated, all the "safety whiners" could shut up and they could raise wind limits to 15kt and up and have fleet racing challenger selection. That might garner a larger online audience.

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8 hours ago, marlowe said:

We need a diagram, with lots of arrows, of the opposing forces involved in the protocol of an AC match.

It's not so much fluid dynamics as a pissing contest.

Agreed mate, as long as the arrows are yellow we're good :D

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Jimmy has citizenship of Australia and US . Does he also have Italian citizenship?

He can live there for 2 years, so he will be ok.

Alinghi will be a bit fucked cos anyone needing to spend 2 years there won't have any time to train 9n the ocean. Unless Ernie decides to challenge from Fiji or some shit.

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13 hours ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

What happened for you to hate on ETNZ repeatedly ?? You seem intent on trying to bring em down ?

Can you not give any credit where credits due ?

Surely you can admit they are a great americas cup team ?

Great sailors.....great designers.....super great fans

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23 minutes ago, 45Roller said:

We need a diagram, with lots of arrows, of the opposing forces involved in the protocol of an AC match.

The first one of you Mo-Fo's put's this out in a Powerpoint Presentation will be the recipient of some old fashioned, Medieval Pipe hitting........ just thought I'd pass that gem on from a friend......

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Just now, Zeusproject said:

I thought he was grant an honourable citizenship after the last cup 

Ha, ha. Keys to the city, at the very least.

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3 hours ago, Piet56 said:

The first one of you Mo-Fo's put's this out in a Powerpoint Presentation will be the recipient of some old fashioned, Medieval Pipe hitting........ just thought I'd pass that gem on from a friend......

Not sure what's going on, but it was @marlowe that spoke about the diagram, not me :unsure:

_20210319_214239.JPG

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18 hours ago, southseasbill said:

https://emirates-team-new-zealand.americascup.com/en/team.html

Glen is listed as "Salior - Trimmer"

"Main Man" doesn't appear to be listed.

Pete is listed as helmsman, not skipper. Anybody who knows what has been going on knows that Glenn has been the skipper for the last 2 editions and is in charge of sailing activities. It's probably tellinh about the culture of the team that they don't make a point of it in the bios.

 

5 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Crikey, you spend enough time here to know that Ashby is skipper and helm. Go discuss with Four :)

Have you ever been right about anything? Glenn has never been the helm, except on a limited number of occasions when Pete wasn't available. There was a story that they tried having 2 helms like LR, with Glenn helming on one side, but I never found out whether that was serious and they didn't use it in the match. Therefore, to call Glenn the helm is completely wrong.

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@jaysper

Since you spoke about Artemis in this Thread briefly like Alinghi they are probably out now with this new National Clause. Grant Dalton really did shut out the 3 Billionaires Bertarelli, Ellison and Tjornqvist.

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6 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@jaysper

Since you spoke about Artemis in this Thread briefly like Alinghi they are probably out now with this new National Clause. Grant Dalton really did shut out the 3 Billionaires Bertarelli, Ellison and Tjornqvist.

Why Ellison as well? I think the US could put on a top national team, They could even hire Spithill, who has American passport.

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6 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Why Ellison as well? I think the US could put on a top national team, They could even hire Spithill, who has American passport.

Correct.

However I think too much emphasis is being placed on the crew and not enough on the design teams.

If you believe the poms, Ainslie can foil without a boat but still went home early.

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11 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Why Ellison as well? I think the US could put on a top national team, They could even hire Spithill, who has American passport.

Unlikely I'd say with him occupied with SailGP!

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8 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Correct.

However I think too much emphasis is being placed on the crew and not enough on the design teams.

If you believe the poms, Ainslie can foil without a boat but still went home early.

Yes, theoretically Larry could mount a Challenge but I don't think he will.

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1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Unlikely I'd say with him occupied with SailGP!

Yes true, It's very unlikely he will come back, I thought you were speaking about nationality

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9 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Yes true, It's very unlikely he will come back, I thought you were speaking about nationality

I don't think the Americans have the Sailing Talent. If you look at the 1st RR Race of the Prada Cup Ben & Giles were Head and Shoulders above Barker, Campbell, Hutchinson and Goodison. They absolutely crushed them.

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8 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I don't think the Americans have the Sailing Talent. If you look at the 1st RR Race of the Prada Cup Ben & Giles were Head and Shoulders above Barker, Campbell, Hutchinson and Goodison. They absolutely crushed them.

Sure, but were Hutch and Barker really the best they could get or were they there cos of Hutches position in leadership?

I would argue they could have found plenty of more suitable candidates if sailing skills were the only criteria.

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Sure, but were Hutch and Barker really the best they could get or were they there cos of Hutches position in leadership?

I would argue they could have found plenty of more suitable candidates if sailing skills were the only criteria.

I think Hutch & Barker teamed up because of 2007. NYYC/American Magic was kind of a sort of "Feel Good Team" like Fourourselves often said.

Even before the Final Boats were launched I thought INEOS had the most upside. Yes, the Christmas Race was bad but I always was convinced that they would do better in the Prada Cup.

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30 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Unlikely I'd say with him occupied with SailGP!

If you're talking about Spithill's options, money talks, and SailGP is a very part time gig.

Anyone like Spithill with legitimate potential multiple nationalities under this proposed protocol requirement as worded (ITA, AUS, USA in his case) is a valuable commodity.

Sailors with only NZ nationality just saw their value plummet, unless they have the creds to move into a high-level non-sailing role outside NZ

NZ sailors only do it for love of country in any case, right?

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3 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

If the next race between Ineos and ETNZ is for the AC in Britain, then If Ineos wins they will just tell GD to get lost and accept another challenge from Italy?

Why from Italy? Why not Switzerland? Or better yet, the USA? It would be like old times! ;-)

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6 minutes ago, accnick said:

Anyone like Spithill with legitimate potential multiple nationalities under this proposed protocol requirement as worded (ITA, AUS, USA in his case) is a valuable commodity.

Sailors with only NZ nationality just saw their value plummet, unless they have the creds to move into a high-level non-sailing role outside NZ

Hmmmm. I not at all happy with having up and coming NZL and AUS sailors left on the beach because of this Nationality Rule. Apart from the fact that it's based on an incorrect understanding of the AC DoG, it's self-serving and unfairly career limiting.

I'd love to hear from someone like, Chris Steele on this topic.

My response will be to support SailGP to rival the AC. But they'd need to drop those shitty cats.

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2 hours ago, Kiwing said:

If the next race between Ineos and ETNZ is for the AC in Britain, then If Ineos wins they will just tell GD to get lost and accept another challenge from Italy?

This is not the point I think. Btw I think the Brits would honour the agreement. But it's something so unrespectful towards the other syndicates that there will be consequences in the future.

What if they change idea and they decide that the ball is theirs and only they can play, forever?

Again, try to imagine if something like that was done to ETNZ, excluding them from an edition of the Cup, What would the Kiwi supporters think? I would like to hear.

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13 minutes ago, strider470 said:

This is not the point I think. Btw I think the Brits would honour the agreement. But it's something so unrespectful towards the other syndicates that there will be consequences in the future.

What if they change idea and they decide that the ball is theirs and only they can play, forever?

Again, try to imagine if something like that was done to ETNZ, excluding them from an edition of the Cup, What would the Kiwi supporters think? I would like to hear.

We would go fucking ape shit. ;-)

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16 minutes ago, strider470 said:

This is not the point I think. Btw I think the Brits would honour the agreement. But it's something so unrespectful towards the other syndicates that there will be consequences in the future.

What if they change idea and they decide that the ball is theirs and only they can play, forever?

Again, try to imagine if something like that was done to ETNZ, excluding them from an edition of the Cup, What would the Kiwi supporters think? I would like to hear.

Why would the Brits honour the agreement? This is an expensive game where winning is difficult. So if they won why not just tell ETNZ to take walk. I am sure the British public would go along. The other challengers would go along.

The only person pissed would be Dalts. :lol: He could join in but not sure the team would want him after that sort of cockup.

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1 hour ago, strider470 said:

Again, try to imagine if something like that was done to ETNZ, excluding them from an edition of the Cup, What would the Kiwi supporters think? I would like to hear.

The rage would be so immense you would see the fireball from space.

I would like to think the reason we haven't seen more of my fellow kiwis filled with rage is because they've fucked off out of here after the end of the cup.

But I'm not convinced.

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2 hours ago, jaysper said:

The rage would be so immense you would see the fireball from space.

I would like to think the reason we haven't seen more of my fellow kiwis filled with rage is because they've fucked off out of here after the end of the cup.

But I'm not convinced.

Judging from some comments, not necessarily Kiwi comments tho, many people don't care about the DoG or tradition or good manners when it comes to the AC. They don't even know about them. They just think "the boats are cool, RtI is cool, stability is cool, gimme crash, boom, bang". It's probably only us super nerds who see the plan as an abomination. 

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16 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Judging from some comments, not necessarily Kiwi comments tho, many people don't care about the DoG or tradition or good manners when it comes to the AC. They don't even know about them. They just think "the boats are cool, RtI is cool, stability is cool, gimme crash, boom, bang". It's probably only us super nerds who see the plan as an abomination. 

I can possibly forgive Etnz for a circle jerk with INEOS 1 v 1, but I wouldn't bother watching it.

However an attempt to subvert the course if subsequent ACs is utterly unforgivable.

I also think the nationality clause is self serving cuntery.

If you want to prevent Ernie from doing what he did in 2000, then just reject his entry.

But this seems far more venomous than that. 

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7 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I can possibly forgive Etnz for a circle jerk with INEOS 1 v 1, but I wouldn't bother watching it.

However an attempt to subvert the course if subsequent ACs is utterly unforgivable.

I also think the nationality clause is self serving cuntery.

If you want to prevent Ernie from doing what he did in 2000, then just reject his entry.

But this seems far more venomous than that. 

Reject on what grounds? We don’t like him? He did mean things to us? He paid people more? Yup that’s gonna stand up in court.. 

if he can’t put a team of Home grown talent together then tough shit. If he can? then he is welcome to come and play that’s all the nationality rules are doing

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38 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I can possibly forgive Etnz for a circle jerk with INEOS 1 v 1, but I wouldn't bother watching it.

However an attempt to subvert the course if subsequent ACs is utterly unforgivable.

I also think the nationality clause is self serving cuntery.

If you want to prevent Ernie from doing what he did in 2000, then just reject his entry.

But this seems far more venomous than that. 

If the 1:1 is not an AC match, but an ACWS or show race, I'd love and watch it. If a UK team wins the Cup before and then holds a 1:1 match in UK waters, I'd love and watch it. If the 1:1 match would be the next Cup race and be held in NZ waters, I'd love and watch it. These would all be DoG compliant, tradition compliant scenarios.
But whoring out the venue to the Challenger's waters is super contrary to what ETNZ stands for and has (ab)used to lure in its fan base - Kiwi pride.

Not to mention having any provisions for AC38 in the AC37 protocol - absolutely abhorrent (if it will happen that way at all). Who is behind that, my "friend" Hamish Ross, who once told the world that the RNZYS is not a DoG compliant yacht club?

Same with the nat. rules for sailors: Neither the DoG not tradition mandate a certain nationality for the hired hands. Any protocol (yes, also the proto for AC36) having a nat. clause for the sailors does not look like what GS envisaged. Having (ha!) a designers' nat. clause would be more in the spirit of the Deed: "My country can build a faster boat than yours".

Anyway, we will have a lot of "fun" with the protocol once published, and possibly a lot of frustration with ETNZ/RNZYS in the future. It's a BMWO déjà-vu, a poisoned chalice indeed.

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37 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

if he can’t put a team of Home grown talent together then tough shit. If he can? then he is welcome to come and play that’s all the nationality rules are doing

I wish that were true. Unfortunately, there will be considerable collateral damage as well, as qualified people are barred from the event and gainful employment. 

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4 hours ago, jaysper said:

The rage would be so immense you would see the fireball from space.

I would like to think the reason we haven't seen more of my fellow kiwis filled with rage is because they've fucked off out of here after the end of the cup.

But I'm not convinced.

The real fan boys are hiding would be my guess. Embarrassed with what is happening but unable to say anything bad about their heros.

They should be shouting down the walls, demanding better behaviour. Instead they are turning a blind eye and hoping it is all bullshit made up by the media.

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45 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Reject on what grounds? We don’t like him? He did mean things to us? He paid people more? Yup that’s gonna stand up in court.. 

if he can’t put a team of Home grown talent together then tough shit. If he can? then he is welcome to come and play that’s all the nationality rules are doing

The nationality rules are an abomination.  Why not all the design work to be covered by nationality. Dalton goes on about how he is happy to be going back to the origins with crew nationality, but the only thing that was covered by that was design and build. Crew, no one gave a toss.

But that would be bloody hard for ETNZ, so Dalton bullshits and makes up a lie to cover his assholeness. The Poms just go along with it, makes them just as big on the assholeness.

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10 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

I wish that were true. Unfortunately, there will be considerable collateral damage as well, as qualified people are barred from the event and gainful employment. 

Who has been barred? Lack of funds and sponsors in the relevant countries and Yacht clubs  is a bigger issue than a nationality clause. 
 

 

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5 minutes ago, Gissie said:

The nationality rules are an abomination.  Why not all the design work to be covered by nationality. Dalton goes on about how he is happy to be going back to the origins with crew nationality, but the only thing that was covered by that was design and build. Crew, no one gave a toss.

But that would be bloody hard for ETNZ, so Dalton bullshits and makes up a lie to cover his assholeness. The Poms just go along with it, makes them just as big on the assholeness.

Cry me a river. 

You wanted to win it, you kept it and now you are upset because GD wants to hang on to it again? 
 

the constant defence of anything remotely shady, “the cup isnt meant to be fair, the winner decides etc” and NOW it’s all too much because a nationality rule 99% of the players get around because of dual  nationality’s  and passports

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2 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Maybe they're waiting till we have official confirmation of the AC plans going forward?

Considering Dalton has been quoted on the nationality rules not sure how long you need to wait. Plus, this is SA, never stopped the ETNZ fan bois from giving shit to other teams that did far less with far less details.

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3 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Who has been barred? Lack of funds and sponsors in the relevant countries and Yacht clubs  is a bigger issue than a nationality clause. 
 

 

Every Kiwi sailor not on the team. Any Kiwi on the team that was interested in moving. Any pommy sailor not on the Ineos boat. So the list grows.

The lack of funds is a combination of bloody expensive, especially as you need to plan on being in for at least 2 cycles to be just competitive. Plus the event is being dumbed down and commercialised. The billionaires aren't into events set up to cater to the masses, just not their thing. Bertelli is the only one lately who doesn't want to turn it into some circus that can pay for itself and is the reason I supported them this time.

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7 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Cry me a river. 

You wanted to win it, you kept it and now you are upset because GD wants to hang on to it again? 

I didn't want them to win it. I thought they had started to become assholes and the cup would be better off moving on.

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8 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Who has been barred? Lack of funds and sponsors in the relevant countries and Yacht clubs  is a bigger issue than a nationality clause. 
 

 

You mean natural market forces Vs a colluding cartel? 

You do see where all this is heading don't you?

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8 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

You mean natural market forces Vs a colluding cartel? 

You do see where all this is heading don't you?

Mordor, the eye of Sauron? 
 

natural market forces has a bigger restriction on entries than what passport 11 people have, you are getting upset at the wrong thing. 

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2 minutes ago, The Advocate said:

He either doesn't, or is complicit.

Complicit? You off your meds again?

Genuinely though you seem to spend your entire fucking time looking for posts I’ve made quoting them and coming up with some completely irrelevant remark?  I am flattered but I’m just not interested in you okay?

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Just now, JALhazmat said:

Mordor, the eye of Sauron? 
 

natural market forces has a bigger restriction on entries than what passport 11 people have, you are getting upset at the wrong thing. 

I don't give a rats arse about the number of entries. Never have seen the need to re-engineer or 'grow' the AC, or to monetise it.

I am getting upset at what appears to be hypocrisy and self-serving manipulation. 

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6 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Complicit? You off your meds again?

Genuinely though you seem to spend your entire fucking time looking for posts I’ve made quoting them and coming up with some completely irrelevant remark?  I am flattered but I’m just not interested in you okay?

I can understand how you might think that, but it really isn't the case. It is hard to look at these forums without seeing moronic comments from you, you are incredibly prolific with them.

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

I don't give a rats arse about the number of entries. Never have seen the need to re-engineer or 'grow' the AC, or to monetise it.

I am getting upset at what appears to be hypocrisy and self-serving manipulation. 

+1

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1 minute ago, The Advocate said:

I can understand how you might think that, but it really isn't the case. It is hard to look at these forums without seeing moronic comments from you, you are incredibly prolific with them.

Boohoo. Iggy? 

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7 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

I don't give a rats arse about the number of entries. Never have seen the need to re-engineer or 'grow' the AC, or to monetise it.

I am getting upset at what appears to be hypocrisy and self-serving manipulation. 

+2

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47 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

I don't give a rats arse about the number of entries. Never have seen the need to re-engineer or 'grow' the AC, or to monetise it.

I am getting upset at what appears to be hypocrisy and self-serving manipulation. 

It is the monetise bit that gets me. They claim it is a game for billionaires, then try and make it commercially viable.

Although the hypocrisy and self-serving part bits have started taking centre stage recently.

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6 minutes ago, Gissie said:

It is the monetise bit that gets me. They claim it is a game for billionaires, then try and make it commercially viable.

Although the hypocrisy and self-serving part bits have started taking centre stage recently.

Smoke screens.

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32 minutes ago, SloopJohnB said:

Fuck I hate pages like that.

I had a few beers with a significant person in that organisation the other week, a good friend of mine. He hinted they had done some stuff but I didn't press it. Might be time for another beer.

Cheers for the link.

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