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1 minute ago, Gissie said:

Pro sport needs to accept it is pro and stop with the vwe are pro but need tax money to keep it up' shit.

If you think any Aussie or Kiwi felt the bledisloe being played outside the two countries was a good idea, then you must travel in a very different sphere to me.

As for the AB's and silverlake, let's see how it plays out. If games that would normally be played here are whored out for money they will find there is a big price to pay supporter wise.

Only the older generation cares. The younger generation understand the need to go where the money is instead of waiting for the money to come to them.

To equate it with the current housing situation, many Aucklanders who have spent their whole life in Auckland and feel a sense of loyalty toward Auckland have realized the need to get out in order to either buy a house or get a good job, or both. These days, you either go where the money is, or you suddenly find yourself in a dire situation. 

Its not because of bad management, its because situations which were once stable, pre pandemic, have suddenly become chaotic and no longer financially viable.

 

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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

After many hours of consideration, a lot of in-depth research on the SA technical threads, extensive computational modelling and a few quick & dirty minutes in Photoshop, I have produced this anal

Yes, quite light but I didn't see all the afternoon's sailing, can only comment on later in the day, when Britannia 2 was running a #1 jib and foiling around no problem. They look quite quick at times

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1 minute ago, Gissie said:

Your view, no problem. You will never see anything the team does as wrong. I think wanting to run a five ring circus and demanding others pay for it in todays world is foolish.

In the end if it is what they want, then auction the event and go. Just don't pretend they are an NZ team anymore. Auction the name as well and be a true pro team.

Although it does make a mockery of the nationality rules. You have to be a Kiwi to sail with us, just make sure you can work overseas.

By the way, I guess you had no problem with Coutts etc playing pro?

Totally different situations. ETNZ have been forced, due to circumstances beyond their control, to ensure they are able to secure the teams future in a post covid environment.

Coutts left because he didn't get his way.

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29 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Only the older generation cares. The younger generation understand the need to go where the money is instead of waiting for the money to come to them.

To equate it with the current housing situation, many Aucklanders who have spent their whole life in Auckland and feel a sense of loyalty toward Auckland have realized the need to get out in order to either buy a house or get a good job, or both. These days, you either go where the money is, or you suddenly find yourself in a dire situation. 

Its not because of bad management, its because situations which were once stable, pre pandemic, have suddenly become chaotic and no longer financially viable.

 

Equating people forced out of Auckland by crazy house prices to a team blackmailing a bankrupt city to fund their dream event.

I had forgotten how extreme you are in your blind support and justification. It is a pointless exercise conversing with you.

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

Same will be said of Dalton if the team leaves.

Because the city wouldn’t pay for him to have nice things… that’s literally what it’s about. 
 

 

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

The AB's play the Bledisloe outside of NZ. Bums on seats and eyeballs on TV screens is the name of the game now. It is what it is, there's no stopping it, its just the way things are.

The AC is no longer about billionaires and amateur sailors racing each other for shits and giggles for some obscure trophy like it used to be.

Professional sport is professional sport. Even NZ Rugby have shopped the AB's brand out, and secured a $387.5 million dollar deal with Silverlake, an American investment firm.

So the AC is now just another regatta. Fine. Why do you hate SailGP so much? 

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I don't think there was NEARLY the backlash when Larry took AC35 to Bermuda, as there seems to be welling against ETNZ taking AC37 elsewhere. The big diff here is that it is because of $$$, whereas for LE it seemed more of a middle finger and doing whatever he wanted.

Just goes to show how much of a 'national' team ETNZ is vs the Oracle guns for hire squad - whether this is a good thing or not is debatable.

 

13 hours ago, pusslicker said:

Not this shit again. You might as well go with the AC didn't start until '95 bullshit. You're more deluded than an Oregon Ducks fan. 87,88,92,10,13. Help me with the math fuckface.

I'll unblock him if he can admit he was wrong here.

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19 minutes ago, shebeen said:

I don't think there was NEARLY the backlash when Larry took AC35 to Bermuda, as there seems to be welling against ETNZ taking AC37 elsewhere. The big diff here is that it is because of $$$, whereas for LE it seemed more of a middle finger and doing whatever he wanted.

Just goes to show how much of a 'national' team ETNZ is vs the Oracle guns for hire squad - whether this is a good thing or not is debatable.

 

I'll unblock him if he can admit he was wrong here.

Don’t hold your breath. 

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21 minutes ago, shebeen said:

I don't think there was NEARLY the backlash when Larry took AC35 to Bermuda, as there seems to be welling against ETNZ taking AC37 elsewhere. The big diff here is that it is because of $$$, whereas for LE it seemed more of a middle finger and doing whatever he wanted.

Just goes to show how much of a 'national' team ETNZ is vs the Oracle guns for hire squad - whether this is a good thing or not is debatable.

 

I think it shows a couple of things but not that

1) The vast vast majority of yanks didn't care where LE held the AC because they don't care about the AC at all. Even most sailors in the UK don't really follow the AC and I suspect the same is true of USA

2) The AC (and various sailing) is important to NZ because its up there behind rugby and cricket as a popular sport. 

3) NZ has a "small country mentality" which makes such "nationalistic slights" of bigger concern. This isn't a criticism, merely an observation. If you compare with the US there was a lot of upset of American football and baseball franchises moving from one city to another - but very little about some NFL/AFL matches being played in Europe

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

TNZ would prefer to hold the event in NZ, but if they can't raise the necessary funds locally to do it properly, then they'll have look elsewhere. Nothing would be worse than a chronically underfunded defence.

But they did not need to organize AC37 next year (if confirmed).

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37 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I think it shows a couple of things but not that

1) The vast vast majority of yanks didn't care where LE held the AC because they don't care about the AC at all. Even most sailors in the UK don't really follow the AC and I suspect the same is true of USA

2) The AC (and various sailing) is important to NZ because its up there behind rugby and cricket as a popular sport. 

3) NZ has a "small country mentality" which makes such "nationalistic slights" of bigger concern. This isn't a criticism, merely an observation. If you compare with the US there was a lot of upset of American football and baseball franchises moving from one city to another - but very little about some NFL/AFL matches being played in Europe

agreed, I think you undersell the level sailors follow it though.

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1 hour ago, shebeen said:

I don't think there was NEARLY the backlash when Larry took AC35 to Bermuda, as there seems to be welling against ETNZ taking AC37 elsewhere.

Not sure about that. At least some who'd previously defended everything Larry did walked away from SAAC. 

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

But they did not need to organize AC37 next year (if confirmed).

Yeah, but you still have a payroll to meet to keep the team together. Ideally they'll want their funding in place as early as possible so they can keep continuity with their development. 

 

1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

Now ETNZ does the same. Well... 

If as it looks likely that they'll defend offshore, it's not something I'm going to be over joyed about, but most of us Kiwis understand why, and we'll grit our teeth and get on with supporting our team. That said, there will be some blow back in NZ...to be expected..... Larry went offshore not because he had to chase sponsorship obviously....but as a whatever gesture to whomever......Different situations....

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Yeah, but you still have a payroll to meet to keep the team together. Ideally they'll want their funding in place as early as possible so they can keep continuity with their development. 

 

If as it looks likely that they'll defend offshore, it's not something I'm going to be over joyed about, but most of us Kiwis understand why, and we'll grit our teeth and get on with supporting our team. That said, there will be some blow back in NZ...to be expected..... Larry went offshore not because he had to chase sponsorship obviously....but as a whatever gesture to whomever......Different situations....

I stopped to care about ETNZ some time ago, so I don't mind them whoring out the event to the highest bidder. I'm just disappointed that the AC is now clearly in the JAR-field, especially since GD talked about "bringing the Cup back to its traditions" or so after Larry had his dirty hands on it.
I may not spell it correctly, but I know what it means... hypocrisy.

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Dalts has made it clear. Preserving Team New Zealand is his primary concern.

More than any fluff about traditions, more than national pride, more than the good of the Cup, RNZYS or New Zealand.

Once you understand that, all of his actions make sense. I think he probably tells himself that he has every intention of bringing the event back to Auckland once financial footing is more secure, but I also doubt that he ever will. The money to support his team is never going to be better in Auckland.

It seems that this is what it will take for Kiwis to finally lose their innocence and stop believing that Grant Dalton and Team New Zealand are somehow different - more ethical, better sportsmen, better patriots, etc. than everybody else in the AC game. They aren't. They never have been.

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6 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Totally different situations. ETNZ have been forced, due to circumstances beyond their control, to ensure they are able to secure the teams future in a post covid environment.

Coutts left because he didn't get his way.

BS!  Beyond the salaries they have grown accustomed to is a better way of stating it.  

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21 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

"bringing the Cup back to its traditions"

I think you're naive to think that bringing back the cup to its traditions means going back to a period when the sailors, builders, designers etc were part timers, and working virtually for the love of it, and not money. They're professionals, and they deserve appropriate remuneration. I think AC36 was a well run, traditional style event, with the Defender not participating in the Challenger selection series, as happened in Bermuda. The Defender also didn't fund a challenging team either (Softbank). So there were tangible differences between the events.

Teams like the NYYC would not have become involved, or expressed an interest in future involvement, if they thought ETNZ were running a shoddy Cup. We don't know the protocol for AC37, so I reserve judgement on that....but I personally don't think GD has been hypocritical. In fact he made some bold choices in introducing a brand new untested, untried, boat that was a resounding success.

Has he (GD) always got everything right? Probably not, but he did get a lot of things right under difficult circumstances (Covid) and pulled off a great event, and deserves plenty of praise and accolades for that.

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I don't think people are saying he was hypocritical in AC36- I certainly wasn't. But the traditions do include this being a contest between clubs representing nations, and over-riding the club to take it offshore would ride roughshod over that aspect somewhat

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ETNZ are between a rock and a hard place. Run an underfunded defence at home and most likely get thrashed....but we can proudly say we preserved the traditions, and slink off like losers. Or we can can choose an alternative approach, which will piss off the high minded purists. 

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8 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

ETNZ are between a rock and a hard place. Run an underfunded defence at home and most likely get thrashed....but we can proudly say we preserved the traditions, and slink off like losers. Or we can can choose an alternative approach, which will piss off the high minded purists. 

The lack of funding might be of their own making. They chose a very complicated boat that mandates hordes of designers, software experts, AI experts, composite experts... The payroll must be a nightmare.

Again, I really don't care for ETNZ anymore, same as I stopped to have any positive feelings for Oracle when they went to Bermuda.

I am disappointed that from edition to edition the Cup is getting less relatable, less traditional, less Deed-ish and more "just another regatta". Apparently this is what all protagonists want, fine with me. Russel and his disenchantment of the Cup won in the end.

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1 hour ago, idontwan2know said:

Dalts has made it clear. Preserving Team New Zealand is his primary concern.

More than any fluff about traditions, more than national pride, more than the good of the Cup, RNZYS or New Zealand.

Once you understand that, all of his actions make sense. I think he probably tells himself that he has every intention of bringing the event back to Auckland once financial footing is more secure, but I also doubt that he ever will. The money to support his team is never going to be better in Auckland.

It seems that this is what it will take for Kiwis to finally lose their innocence and stop believing that Grant Dalton and Team New Zealand are somehow different - more ethical, better sportsmen, better patriots, etc. than everybody else in the AC game. They aren't. They never have been.

For me they were until the end of AC36, the beginning of AC37 clearly showed they were not any more.

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48 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

ETNZ are between a rock and a hard place. Run an underfunded defence at home and most likely get thrashed....but we can proudly say we preserved the traditions, and slink off like losers. Or we can can choose an alternative approach, which will piss off the high minded purists. 

Its not new that NZ has few billionaires and few large companies willing to invest. So maybe he (and some of his supporters) shouldn't have spouted the holier-than-thou bs that kiwis would uphold the traditions etc. Unless of course they do and now run a campaign based on sponsorship from the local fast food van "Best beetroot burgers for Burling" etc

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8 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

For me they were until the end of AC36, the beginning of AC37 clearly showed they were not any more.

Obviously it's an unknowable debate. I just tend to think that they've been operating with a similar level of self-interest dictating their actions pretty much all along and it so happened that their self-interest aligned with other priorities in a way that enabled them and their fans to believe in a fantasy version of events where they were the true and noble heroes.

 

They were the only ones to not sign on to the grand bargain in Bermuda because it went against the traditions of the cup and evil Larry, rather than the fact that they were being bankrolled by Bertelli who hated the AC50. That kind of thing.

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10 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

I wasn't happy about it initially, caught up in the shock/emotion of it, I guess.

But then I quickly came to the acceptance (something the, 'Black Heart' F listers were never capable of) that professional sailors need to go where they're comfortable with the gig and the offer. 

A podcast interview I heard with Brad Butterworth, only just last week, reaffirmed I'd reached the correct conclusion.

Yes, BB got into the BlackHeart subject a little during that podcast. I don't remember the exact details but iirc he said there was actual funding behind that hatred campaign. And I think he alluded to local business-interested guys fueling that? May or not be the same case with the rumored pressure being put on RNZYS.

As to the amount of funding ETNZ could raise by running it at home versus offshore, I'm still curious about how much of the difference is measured in Profit over and above just a run-the defense budget.  

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3 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

 and slink off like losers.

This is the problem, the idea that if you don't win you just slik off like a loser. That winning is the only answer acceptable, that doing anything to win is acceptable.

The team would be far better to compet and lose, in Auckland, than to win elsewhere. Of course an even worse fate would be to take it elsewhere and still lose.

As for most Kiwis understanding the need for the move, you certainly move in different circles to me. I know no one that thinks it is a good idea, either sailor or general support when the event happens people. They all feel they need to drop the NZ part as they close the door.

The other concern is that once they lose, which will happen, the dislike for this behaviour will be a huge handbrake on a new team ever getting support to give it a go in the future. Once Dalts loses it, NZ will be extremely unlikely to ever be part of the cup again. Nice legacy to leave, but I don't think he cares to be honest.

 

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I've said it before but again: My prediction is that, all things told, they are more likely to run AC37 in Auckland again than elsewhere.

Yes, the pandemic has been a problem for some of the commercial side of it but guess what? We now have a bunch of miracle vaccines and so travel restrictions will ease starting soon. That, and ETNZ losing the support of a vast amount of their fans (NZ is by far the biggest AC audience in my estimation) as well as losing their spectacular base, and spectacular sailing venue, by leaving adds to my calculation on this.

TE thinks (even hopes) it will go to the Solent as either a one-on-one or a multi-Chall event but I have my doubts. Like Gary Jobson, Bruno Troublee and some others, I think it will stay 'where it belongs.'  

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

I've said it before but again: My prediction is that, all things told, they are more likely to run AC37 in Auckland again than elsewhere.

Yes, the pandemic has been a problem for some of the commercial side of it but guess what? We have a bunch of miracle vaccines and travel restrictions will ease starting soon. That, and ETNZ losing the support of a vast amount of their fans (NZ is by far the biggest AC audience in my estimation) as well as losing their spectacular base, and spectacular sailing venue, by leaving adds to my calculation on this.

TE thinks (even hopes) it will go to the Solent as either a one-on-one or a multi-Chall event but I have my doubts. Like Gary Jobson, Bruno Troublee and some others, I think it will stay 'where it belongs.'  

I hope you are, but it could easily go either way.

Dalts possibly never wanted to leave, but used the threat to try and bully more money from the taxpayer. He has misread the public support and it  has backfired on him in a big way.

The government and Auckland felt that, in todays climate, throwing to much at a pro sailing event was not going to go down well. Dalts felt invincible and that Kiwi supporters would force the government to front up to his demands.

The government has got the call right and have called TNZ out. Here is the sum that we can sell to the public, take it or piss off. So the question is can Dalts swallow his pride and stay. If he accepts and stays, he will get lots of support. This is the sensible solution, but will his ego let him.

The other possibility of course is that he doesn't really care where it is held as long as he gets his way. Has he got any real commitment to NZ, doubtful. The country has been a useful source of top sailors and the basis of the team had already been setup when he took over. The event itself has become his overriding passion, keeping the cup at all costs and turning it into a self funding JAR, the legacy he wishes to leave behind.

However there are some dangers he needs to consider to this legacy. If he leaves, it will no longer be a Kiwi team as far as the majority of the country feels. This I am sure of, despite the claims of a few here. It will also sign the death knell of any future Kiwi team. We can be a fickle bunch and will pass our discust with being abandoned for money down through the decades. Any future team would have a gargantuan task to gain any sort of support in the future. 

So he has a choice to make. It all depends on his ego and whether he can stomach the though of admitting he has read the NZ public so badly. If he plays it right he will be treated as a hero. Get it wrong and the cries of traitor will be forever associated with his name and all that sail with him. Interesting times.

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31 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

I've said it before but again: My prediction is that, all things told, they are more likely to run AC37 in Auckland again than elsewhere.

Yes, the pandemic has been a problem for some of the commercial side of it but guess what? We now have a bunch of miracle vaccines and so travel restrictions will ease starting soon. That, and ETNZ losing the support of a vast amount of their fans (NZ is by far the biggest AC audience in my estimation) as well as losing their spectacular base, and spectacular sailing venue, by leaving adds to my calculation on this.

TE thinks (even hopes) it will go to the Solent as either a one-on-one or a multi-Chall event but I have my doubts. Like Gary Jobson, Bruno Troublee and some others, I think it will stay 'where it belongs.'  

Yes. The elephant in the room is funding, but its not the first time TNZ are running barely solvent, indeed its their norm. I'd love to see the AC75's on the Solent, it would truly be an amazing event. 

It's tough raising AC amounts of coin within in NZ and such funding invariably comes from offshore into tangible assets like farming, ie a recent 100m float. Maybe the NZ Squadron lawyers could divert their legal efforts to raising a few mil and keep TNZ going.

Ineos wont be giving anything away, they want to win the cup not buy it - as Magnus said, they are one of the toughest negotiators in the biz and this time they have a reasonably good hand.

 

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Gissie ^ I suspect that too much of the focus here is on GD. While he may well have be getting rich off the running/accounting of (and commission-based fundraising for) ETNZ and more recently fighting to hold onto his position as head of ACE too for similar reasons, and so may benefit big-time personally by larger budgets for both team and the event, there are likely bigger fish making the calls - especially 'Team Principal' Matteo di Nora. Who, by the way is of Italian heritage but was US born and is a Canadian citizen :) It is plausible that Matteo intends to lighten the load on his wallet, maybe even profit off the event given they are Defenders.

 

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10 hours ago, shebeen said:

I don't think there was NEARLY the backlash when Larry took AC35 to Bermuda, as there seems to be welling against ETNZ taking AC37 elsewhere. The big diff here is that it is because of $$$, whereas for LE it seemed more of a middle finger and doing whatever he wanted.

Just goes to show how much of a 'national' team ETNZ is vs the Oracle guns for hire squad - whether this is a good thing or not is debatable.

 

I'll unblock him if he can admit he was wrong here.

There was to know it was a "sporting" backlash but not a national backlash of outraged Amurricans.  That's because few had read the DoG to know it was supposed to be among nations.  They thought it was Team Oracle.  And had been since 2003.  It stayed ORACLE, loved or reviled as a company.   

 

1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

I've said it before but again: My prediction is that, all things told, they are more likely to run AC37 in Auckland again than elsewhere.

Yes, the pandemic has been a problem for some of the commercial side of it but guess what? We now have a bunch of miracle vaccines and so travel restrictions will ease starting soon. That, and ETNZ losing the support of a vast amount of their fans (NZ is by far the biggest AC audience in my estimation) as well as losing their spectacular base, and spectacular sailing venue, by leaving adds to my calculation on this.

TE thinks (even hopes) it will go to the Solent as either a one-on-one or a multi-Chall event but I have my doubts. Like Gary Jobson, Bruno Troublee and some others, I think it will stay 'where it belongs.'  

Two things I wonder about.  

1) When the quarantine/testing walls around Australia and NZ will disappear due to trust in vaccines.  From the "zero cases ever" sentiments in Australia, not likely to be be in time for a 2023 Cup.  And if NZ opens up before AUS, they lose tourism revenues. I mean, right now we have 0.04% (not 4%) breakthrough infections and 10% of those died, I think.  THAT'S DEATHS AUSSIES COULD AVOID BY STAYING BEHIND THE WALL or so they seem to think.  Of course, they don't have enough of the better vaccines.  I wouldn't fly in USA if I had Astra Zenica.  I did on Moderna.  (Same Aussies go out without sunscreen, smoke, drink, but COVID RISK is unbearable because it comes from filthy overseas people... (Sarcasm font)

2) Would an "agreement" before AC37 about where AC38 would be held be legally binding?  Suppose UK wins.  They are NOT going to want to defend at home??????  

 

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10 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

2) Would an "agreement" before AC37 about where AC38 would be held be legally binding?  Suppose UK wins.  They are NOT going to want to defend at home??????

If arrangements about the venue for AC38 were somehow agreed by ETNZ and Ineos as a requirement that any possible subsequent Challs would have to sign to when Challenging under the AC37 Protocol (a touch like the AC50 agreement 5 of 6 teams happily signed during AC35, but this time pre-enforced on all the Challs) then... I guess so? The whole thing strikes me as a touch bizarre though, am still curious what the source of the initial rumor was. Max S, maybe?

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20 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

There was to know it was a "sporting" backlash but not a national backlash of outraged Amurricans.  That's because few had read the DoG to know it was supposed to be among nations.

And because many Americans do not have any big nationalistic chip on their shoulder about wherever some sailboat race happens :) They have not been brainwashed into sailing being anything of national importance, the flag on the sail was fun enough to root for if you happened across that TV channel.

 

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11 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

And because many Americans do not have any big nationalistic chip on their shoulder about wherever some sailboat race happens :) They have not been brainwashed into sailing being anything of national importance, the flag on the sail was fun enough to root for if you happened across that TV channel.

 

Or anybody who had an Oracle IP audit could root for ETNZ, lol.  

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17 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

If arrangements about the venue for AC38 were somehow agreed by ETNZ and Ineos as a requirement that any possible subsequent Challs would have to sign to when Challenging under the AC37 Protocol (a touch like the AC50 agreement 5 of 6 teams happily signed during AC35, but this time pre-enforced on all the Challs) then... I guess so? The whole thing strikes me as a touch bizarre though, am still curious what the source of the initial rumor was. Max S, maybe?

But suppose one of the signatories to LE/RC's Framework Agreement had won?  And then changed their mind?  Could it have been enforced in court?  

If not, what would have to be in the AC38 venue agreement, signed to be in AC37 to be enforceable?

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Gissie ^ I suspect that too much of the focus here is on GD. While he may well have be getting rich off the running/accounting of (and commission-based fundraising for) ETNZ and more recently fighting to hold onto his position as head of ACE too for similar reasons, and so may benefit big-time personally by larger budgets for both team and the event, there are likely bigger fish making the calls - especially 'Team Principal' Matteo di Nora. Who, by the way is of Italian heritage but was US born and is a Canadian citizen :) It is plausible that Matteo intends to lighten the load on his wallet, maybe even profit off the event given they are Defenders.

 

I have no problem with how much Dalts is making from the team. It is a tough job and he has kept it going, successfully, for a long time. However he is the face of the team. He is certainly the one that makes the calls. He will also be the one that gets either praise or shit for what happens.

Matteo is a chancer. My understanding is he puts up little in the way of money, apologises if this proves wrong. I do know that years ago when the team was about to fold, he arranged for 10 of his mates to chuck in a mill each to keep things going. This, in theory, would have been an easy thing for him to do, but he touched up his mates instead, several of who were willing to pay but wanted zero publicity.

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4 minutes ago, Gissie said:

I have no problem with how much Dalts is making from the team. It is a tough job and he has kept it going, successfully, for a long time. However he is the face of the team.

I have no problem with it either but am curious about if he has a financial motivation to make AC event and team budgets larger instead of smaller. 

As far as 'face of the team' - am going to disagree there. For whatever reasons he barely ever showed his face in Bermuda, and then did so even less in Auckland.

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15 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

But suppose one of the signatories to LE/RC's Framework Agreement had won?  And then changed their mind?  Could it have been enforced in court?  

If not, what would have to be in the AC38 venue agreement, signed to be in AC37 to be enforceable?

About the Framework agreement, no idea. But since they willingly signed it, then it was presumably their intention to keep that Class for AC36 and so who cares?

For a potential AC38 venue agreement being buried in the AC37 Protocol, yes, great question! How the hell can ETNZ and Ineos include an iron-clad one for Auckland if they can't or won't even pre-agree it with Auckland?

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14 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

I have no problem with it either but am curious about if he has a financial motivation to make AC event and team budgets larger instead of smaller. 

As far as 'face of the team' - am going to disagree there. For whatever reasons he barely ever showed his face in Bermuda, and then did so even less in Auckland.

Since the cockup of SF he has allowed Burling and Ashby to be at the front, but I think most Kiwis still see him as the driving force of the team.

Money is not a big driver, family money is plentiful. He wants to take Larry and Russell's vision and turbocharge it. Make it some self funding sailing for the masses crap event. The very opposite of the tradition he claims as justification for his behaviour and choices.

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Most all of what he talks about is money but... okay :) He is primarily an accountant.

And good luck to him, if he wants to create what RC and LE are happy to do. He (ACE) already adopted short-format races and Stan Honey's LiveLine derived graphics and umpiring. The originally-planned WS events were a good idea too.

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8 hours ago, idontwan2know said:

to believe in a fantasy version of events where they were the true and noble heroes.

What a simplistic dumbed down view of NZers you have. The AC is a hard and dirty game, and Dalts has played it as hard as anyone, with the tacit approval of NZers. 

10 hours ago, idontwan2know said:

for Kiwis to finally lose their innocence

Who do you think we are ? Debutantes?

Your language is way off....Jesus....we're the best at one of the roughest sports in the world - rugby.... and we're the hardest, meanest, bastards getting around. In sailing there are plenty of examples of Kiwi ruthlessness.......

I've no idea where you're from, but it's you that seems to have a fantasy idea about Kiwis.......

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Most all of what he talks about is money but... okay :) He is primarily an accountant.

And good luck to him, if he wants to create what RC and LE are happy to do. He (ACE) already adopted short-format races and Stan Honey's LiveLine derived graphics and umpiring. The originally-planned WS events were a good idea too.

I guess this is where we differ. The cup is a bring what you have and race. All the ws crap, hype and short course, just unnecessary fluff. If the ws is raced in Cup boats then it takes away from the main event, if in something else it's a Jar. Who cares.

 

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10 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

What a simplistic dumbed down view of NZers you have. The AC is a hard and dirty game, and Dalts has played it as hard as anyone, with the tacit approval of NZers. 

Who do you think we are ? Debutantes?

Your language is way off....Jesus....we're the best at one of the roughest sports in the world - rugby.... and we're the hardest, meanest, bastards getting around. In sailing there are plenty of examples of Kiwi ruthlessness.......

I've no idea where you're from, but it's you that seems to have a fantasy idea about Kiwis.......

Are you really a Kiwi? That is some hardcore population you seem to think lives here.

The hardest, meanest bastards around. :lol: Yeah right.

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6 hours ago, Gissie said:

That winning is the only answer acceptable,

Umm, this is the AC, there is no second, and yes winning is what it's all about. NZ has never been there to just "make up the numbers." The Kiwi public have high expectations of NZ AC teams, they expect them to do well...they expect them to win....and Dalts/co on the whole, have fulfilled those expectations.

6 hours ago, Gissie said:

The team would be far better to compet and lose, in Auckland,

What like in 03? Yeah that felt real great.......

6 hours ago, Gissie said:

As for most Kiwis understanding the need for the move, you certainly move in different circles to me. I know no one that thinks it is a good idea,

Well there are other opinions out there, funny that eh?

6 hours ago, Gissie said:

The other concern is that once they lose, which will happen, the dislike for this behaviour will be a huge handbrake on a new team ever getting support to give it a go in the future. Once Dalts loses it, NZ will be extremely unlikely to ever be part of the cup again.

Sorry, can't agree with any of that.......

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12 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

What a simplistic dumbed down view of NZers you have. The AC is a hard and dirty game, and Dalts has played it as hard as anyone, with the tacit approval of NZers. 

Who do you think we are ? Debutantes?

Your language is way off....Jesus....we're the best at one of the roughest sports in the world - rugby.... and we're the hardest, meanest, bastards getting around. In sailing there are plenty of examples of Kiwi ruthlessness.......

I've no idea where you're from, but it's you that seems to have a fantasy idea about Kiwis.......

Most of my exposure to Kiwi sailing fans has been on this forum, so I'm fully prepared to admit that it's a skewed sample.

If you seriously dispute that there's a myopic tendency on the part of Kiwis to view TNZ as the "good guys" and a morally superior brand of sailing team to their competitors then we probably won't ever see eye to eye on this.

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4 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

If you seriously dispute that there's a myopic tendency on the part of Kiwis to view TNZ as the "good guys" and a morally superior brand of sailing team to their competitors then we probably won't ever see eye to eye on this.

It's not that hard to take the high ground when you're dealing with the likes of Larry Ellison, Ernesto Bertarelli, Spittle, Slingsby, Ainslie, and even our own Russell Coutts.....not that I'm one to play that card anyway. The AC is full of arseholes across all nationalities......

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Just now, Horn Rock said:

It's not that hard to take the high ground when you're dealing with the likes of Larry Ellison, Ernesto Bertarelli, Spittle, Slingsby, Ainslie, and even our own Russell Coutts.....not that I'm one to play that card anyway. The AC is full of arseholes across all nationalities......

And Grant is as big a cunt as any of those guys.

How many of them had an affair with an employee's partner?

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8 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

And Grant is as big a cunt as any of those guys.

So a lot of people say....probably who've never even met the guy. Still seems able to attract and retain some of the finest sailing/design talent on the planet, over a long period of time. I suspect Dalts is a somewhat prickly character, but it's not something I'm even remotely concerned about, or willing to dwell upon. 

13 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

How many of them had an affair with an employee's partner?

The bedroom antics of consenting adults is another thing I don't dwell upon.......

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24 minutes ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

I don't think Ernesto and Russell talk much these days ...

Well that's a sheep of a different color, now innit?

 

Messing around with the boss's wife is one thing. Being the boss and messing around with one of your employee's girlfriends is a bit of a different proposition.

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15 minutes ago, idontwan2know said:

Messing around with the boss's wife is one thing. Being the boss and messing around with one of your employee's girlfriends is a bit of a different proposition.

Once you've shagged the boss's wife you become the boss. Who's ya daddy now!! :D

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17 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Because the city wouldn’t pay for him to have nice things… that’s literally what it’s about. 
 

 

That isn't even close to what it's about.

It's about survival, not greed.

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America's Cup: ETNZ Board Chair hits back at false allegations

Richard Gladwell/Sail-World NZ 14 Jun

Said, Sir Stephen: "I can categorically confirm that my retirement from as Director of Emirates Team New Zealand has absolutely nothing to do with the whereabouts of venue for the 37th America’s Cup. I am offended that [person's name redacted], without speaking to me would represent my retirement in such an uninformed manner to suit his own agenda and it would appear that of the [entity's name redacted]. As a long term director of the team I completely understand the commercial realities of keeping the team operational and funded to be able to defend the America’s Cup and this is the number one priority for the team. The challenges of funding the team are even greater in a Covid 19 ravaged world."

"The decision on venue is related directly to the need to keep the team financially viable but of course it is mine, and everyone else at ETNZs preference to hold the 37th Americas Cup in New Zealand. But if the team aren’t able to defend the Cup due to lack of committed funding then the staging of the event becomes something of a moot point.”

 

https://www.sail-world.com/news/238546/Team-NZ-Board-Chair-hits-back-at-fake-media-claims

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10 hours ago, Gissie said:

As for most Kiwis understanding the need for the move, you certainly move in different circles to me. I know no one that thinks it is a good idea, either sailor or general support when the event happens people. They all feel they need to drop the NZ part as they close the door.

If it enables TNZ to survive it is a good idea.  They will always be TNZ wherever they go, outside NZ it becomes an away game, just like the All Blacks or the cricketers when they go away.

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

That isn't even close to what it's about.

It's about survival, not greed.

Can’t survive on 100mil and raise funds elsewhere?  Behave. 
 

 

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59 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

America's Cup: ETNZ Board Chair hits back at false allegations

Richard Gladwell/Sail-World NZ 14 Jun

Said, Sir Stephen: "I can categorically confirm that my retirement from as Director of Emirates Team New Zealand has absolutely nothing to do with the whereabouts of venue for the 37th America’s Cup. I am offended that [person's name redacted], without speaking to me would represent my retirement in such an uninformed manner to suit his own agenda and it would appear that of the [entity's name redacted]. As a long term director of the team I completely understand the commercial realities of keeping the team operational and funded to be able to defend the America’s Cup and this is the number one priority for the team. The challenges of funding the team are even greater in a Covid 19 ravaged world."

"The decision on venue is related directly to the need to keep the team financially viable but of course it is mine, and everyone else at ETNZs preference to hold the 37th Americas Cup in New Zealand. But if the team aren’t able to defend the Cup due to lack of committed funding then the staging of the event becomes something of a moot point.”

 

https://www.sail-world.com/news/238546/Team-NZ-Board-Chair-hits-back-at-fake-media-claims

So its going overseas then.. 

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29 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

If it enables TNZ to survive it is a good idea.  They will always be TNZ wherever they go, outside NZ it becomes an away game, just like the All Blacks or the cricketers when they go away.

spin-master.jpg

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33 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

So its going overseas then.. 

Looks that way.

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38 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

If it enables TNZ to survive it is a good idea.  They will always be TNZ wherever they go, outside NZ it becomes an away game, just like the All Blacks or the cricketers when they go away.

You are comparing apples and piles of turds. If TNZ had a world tour, no problem. What you are suggesting is NZR gets the world cup,  then sells it off to whoever has the biggest offer.

But you are one of those that would grasp your ankles and let Dalts have a go,  all while smiling and saying he doesn't mean it.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

It's about survival, not greed.

Describing continuance of a commercial organisation as "survival" is hyperbole.

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10 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Gissie ^ I suspect that too much of the focus here is on GD. While he may well have be getting rich off the running/accounting of (and commission-based fundraising for) ETNZ and more recently fighting to hold onto his position as head of ACE too for similar reasons, and so may benefit big-time personally by larger budgets for both team and the event, there are likely bigger fish making the calls - especially 'Team Principal' Matteo di Nora. Who, by the way is of Italian heritage but was US born and is a Canadian citizen :) It is plausible that Matteo intends to lighten the load on his wallet, maybe even profit off the event given they are Defenders.

 

What is it with MdN that you lately mention him in almost all your posts? 

9 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

... 

2) Would an "agreement" before AC37 about where AC38 would be held be legally binding?  Suppose UK wins.  They are NOT going to want to defend at home??????  

 

Not under the Deed. We had that discussion a couple of months ago in several threads. Lots of insights, especially when porthos was weighting in. 

8 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

But suppose one of the signatories to LE/RC's Framework Agreement had won?  And then changed their mind?  Could it have been enforced in court?  

If not, what would have to be in the AC38 venue agreement, signed to be in AC37 to be enforceable?

Not enforceable under the Deed. As for side contracts, maybe they would have led to some fees. As long as we don't know the full text of the agreement, this is speculation. 

3 hours ago, idontwan2know said:

Well that's a sheep of a different color, now innit?

 

Messing around with the boss's wife is one thing. Being the boss and messing around with one of your employee's girlfriends is a bit of a different proposition.

Was she consenting or forced/coerced? 

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The whole event becomes a dead rubber when the defence of the Cup journeys to foreign shores and therefore immediately renders the trickledown sales and marketing mythological and redundant spin regarding the huge amount of public funding that has underwritten this billionaires pissing match.

Daltons dandies can fuck off to where ever they choose I like many don’t consider them valid recipients of social welfare funding.

 

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On 6/14/2021 at 6:14 PM, Gissie said:

The financial realities are made by the team. No one else. It is needs versus wants.

I would not support an NZ team, in any sport, that thinks it should chose to compete overseas because it couldn't afford to stay because of decisions it had made.

Each to his own of course, but I know none that would support them keeping the NZ in TNZ.

Obviously you can't comprehend the support shown in the pages above?

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So, a summary of tonights meeting, the RNZYS is committed to supporting ETNZ regardless of location.

Venue confirmation by September 17th. 


The negotiation period with the government officially ends this Thursday, however if no deal is made that does not mean the Cup goes offshore, it just means it opens the door for outside sponsorship to ensure the cup stays in NZ. Either way, RNZYS is 100% supportive of Team NZ. 

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

America's Cup: ETNZ Board Chair hits back at false allegations

Richard Gladwell/Sail-World NZ 14 Jun

Said, Sir Stephen: "I can categorically confirm that my retirement from as Director of Emirates Team New Zealand has absolutely nothing to do with the whereabouts of venue for the 37th America’s Cup. I am offended that [person's name redacted]GISSIE, without speaking to me would represent my retirement in such an uninformed manner to suit his own agenda and it would appear that of the [entity's name redacted]. As a long term director of the team I completely understand the commercial realities of keeping the team operational and funded to be able to defend the America’s Cup and this is the number one priority for the team. The challenges of funding the team are even greater in a Covid 19 ravaged world."

"The decision on venue is related directly to the need to keep the team financially viable but of course it is mine, and everyone else at ETNZs preference to hold the 37th Americas Cup in New Zealand. But if the team aren’t able to defend the Cup due to lack of committed funding then the staging of the event becomes something of a moot point.”

 

https://www.sail-world.com/news/238546/Team-NZ-Board-Chair-hits-back-at-fake-media-claims

 

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So, the rumours are just that, rumours. NZ is still, and always has been the primary venue location. The Government money at $100 million wouldve been “significantly less due to the terms and conditions of the agreement”. TNZ and RNZYS are committedvto holding AC37 in NZ. They just need to find sponsorship to ensure it happens. In other words everyone needs to calm the fuck down.

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24 minutes ago, barfy said:

Obviously you can't comprehend the support shown in the pages above?

By the same little group of scrotum licker? Whatever barfy, you sound just like one of my old records with the damaged track. We all know what is coming and just need to give it a little bump and we can ignore it until next time.

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16 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

So, the rumours are just that, rumours. NZ is still, and always has been the primary venue location. The Government money at $100 million wouldve been “significantly less due to the terms and conditions of the agreement”. TNZ and RNZYS are committedvto holding AC37 in NZ. They just need to find sponsorship to ensure it happens. In other words everyone needs to calm the fuck down.

So they are not committed at all. They are committed to trying to find enough cash to pay for the super duper five ring circus. If it doesn't materialise, they are committed to taking it offshore. 

They are not committed to toning the circus down to suit the available funds. Unless no one else wants to front in the pleasant climate, in which case it could be an interesting result...

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So because someone can’t get their sums right the kiwi holders get to hold it to ransom until they get what they want. 

plus  if 100mil is such a derisory offer how did they put the entire defence together for 150?  That’s what was widely circulated wasn’t it?  Your telling me GD can’t russel  up 50mil between his tame Italian matteo, the yanky gamer, the Chinese, the UAE, Toyota and Maccas? 
 

he is either very shit at his Job or it’s all bullshit.  I vote for bullshit. 

the curious thing is that Ratclifffe has said on record he won’t be paying a cent to get the cup in the UK, so who IS going to be paying GD his many millions to go to the UK and defend it there? 
 

 

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14 minutes ago, Gissie said:

So they are not committed at all. They are committed to trying to find enough cash to pay for the super duper five ring circus. If it doesn't materialise, they are committed to taking it offshore. 

They are not committed to toning the circus down to suit the available funds. Unless no one else wants to front in the pleasant climate, in which case it could be an interesting result...

https://www.livesaildie.com/americas-cup-37-update-from-grant-dalton-and-rnzys/?fbclid=IwAR16DJ3UduXjQMnmrEvnG3GMqpG2CgDUaGFdY5izcvIs5YsZgrYGSfhgaeY

Both ETNZ and RNZYS are committed to hosting AC37 in NZ.

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6 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

So because someone can’t get their sums right the kiwi holders get to hold it to ransom until they get what they want. 

plus  if 100mil is such a derisory offer how did they put the entire defence together for 150?  That’s what was widely circulated wasn’t it?  Your telling me GD can’t russel  up 50mil between his tame Italian matteo, the yanky gamer, the Chinese, the UAE, Toyota and Maccas? 
 

he is either very shit at his Job or it’s all bullshit.  I vote for bullshit. 

the curious thing is that Ratclifffe has said on record he won’t be paying a cent to get the cup in the UK, so who IS going to be paying GD his many millions to go to the UK and defend it there? 
 

 

Haters gon hate.

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11 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

So because someone can’t get their sums right the kiwi holders get to hold it to ransom until they get what they want. 

plus  if 100mil is such a derisory offer how did they put the entire defence together for 150?  That’s what was widely circulated wasn’t it?  Your telling me GD can’t russel  up 50mil between his tame Italian matteo, the yanky gamer, the Chinese, the UAE, Toyota and Maccas? 
 

he is either very shit at his Job or it’s all bullshit.  I vote for bullshit. 

the curious thing is that Ratclifffe has said on record he won’t be paying a cent to get the cup in the UK, so who IS going to be paying GD his many millions to go to the UK and defend it there? 
 

 

You think the "Entire defence" only cost $150 million including the team campaign cost and Infrastructure upgrade? Really?

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12 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

I've taken you off iggy for this debate, but reading this I'm not sure i should have. Nowhere in that link does it say they are so committed to hosting in NZ. What it actually says is

"At this stage, the America’s Cup is not confirmed to be going offshore."

"Team New Zealand is still New Zealand’s team. Regardless of where the event is held"

"Nothing is ruled out, the venue is still under negotiation"

That sounds as committed to keeping it in NZ as Elizabeth Taylor was to her husbands

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6 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I've taken you off iggy for this debate, but reading this I'm not sure i should have. Nowhere in that link does it say they are so committed to hosting in NZ. What it actually says is

"At this stage, the America’s Cup is not confirmed to be going offshore."

"Team New Zealand is still New Zealand’s team. Regardless of where the event is held"

"Nothing is ruled out, the venue is still under negotiation"

That sounds as committed to keeping it in NZ as Elizabeth Taylor was to her husbands

Grant Dalton emphasised quickly – “Everyone needs to calm down. This is not an announcement. This is a briefing. The Cup is not gone.” But, times have changed in terms of sponsorship. And by that, he means it’s essentially gone and it is still a huge issue around the Cup and personally with Team New Zealand.

The main point of the evening was that it all comes down to – drumroll – money, and where and how they are going to find enough of it. As well as the longevity of Team New Zealand as a whole, a team, a brand.

There has been a lot of speculation around the next edition of the Cup. We break down the rumors and the facts learned at the briefing.

At this stage, the America’s Cup is not confirmed to be going offshore

Facts (as confirmed by TNZ and RNZYS)

– Venue confirmation by September 17th.

– RNZYS is committed to Team New Zealand and supporting them to defend the Cup regardless of location

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