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35 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Indeed, JAL. Very odd. Which is why TNZ does not want to mount an underfunded Defence.

Precisely Sailbydate

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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

Yes, quite light but I didn't see all the afternoon's sailing, can only comment on later in the day, when Britannia 2 was running a #1 jib and foiling around no problem. They look quite quick at times

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On 6/24/2021 at 1:43 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

Bollocks!  @Forourselves is on the money!

I'm right behind Team New Zealand.  If our fuckwit socialist national Government and equally dumb arse socialist local Government (Goff - Auckland) can't look a gift horse in the mouth the  fuck them. 

Us true supporters will take the Cup offshore, grow, develop and defend the hunk of silver.  We'll only come back when the narrow minded fuckwits have been given the boot when the populous realises that a billion dollar bike bridge doesn't actually bring in wealth to the country or elevate NZ onto the world stage.

Go Dalt's!  I've been to many of your fundraising functions and have always admired your honesty and telling it how it is.  Fucking shame the the politicians and bureaucrats can't grow some kahunas!

I see the gin was flowing freely at the retirement village the other day KSFB!

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Which is why TNZ does not want to mount an underfunded Defence.

An underfunded defense with the present AC75, when we know that most cost come from the design team, a one year cycle,  and that NZ is offering $100 M ? Let's be serious.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

An underfunded defense with the present AC75, when we know that most cost come from the design team, a one year cycle,  and that NZ is offering $100 M ? Let's be serious.

Look what happened in 2003. That defence was underfunded and that defence was as “spirited” as Team NZ could muster at that time given the circumstances, and that team, that defence was crucified and is largely forgotten and only remembered as an embarrassing stain on the Team NZ brand and name. Did those guys deserve it? No. hey were the best team, Team NZ could put together at that time, largely young guys, green to the AC who did the best thety could with what they had, yet they were absolutely destroyed on the water and in the media as "Embarrassing".

The public is still trying to forget it. A repeat of that defence will not be tolerated, especially when there were clearly avenues the team, and GD could have explored to prevent it.

The NZ Media loves to vilify NZ Sports Teams, and they've done it many times with the AB's the Black Caps and Team NZ, because thats what generates clicks, likes and cash. But when they win, just like the All Blacks did in 2011 and 2015, just like the Black Caps did last week, and just like Team NZ did a few months ago, they're sporting "Legends". Its just the way it is in NZ.

The public, even if they don't know it yet, would rather a successful offshore defense then a repeat of the “spirited” yet futile embarrassment that was America’s Cup 2003.

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I am with Four on this one!

And don't worry. Dalts & Ratcliffe will make a good Event I can guarantee you that whereever it's been held. Might be Abu Dhabi, might be Cowes! Who knows!

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"Spirit" is no substitute for success.

NZ got behind this team before the Cup, and turned on them afterward.

No one cares how much Spirit you have, when you get absolutely wiped out.

At the end of the day, winning is what matters.

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4 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Hi Gissie. I thought the money was towards AC37, what didn't go to the event went to TNZ. Apologies if I am wrong. If I am then $100m should be plenty to run the event but that still leaves the question of team funding.

My understanding is the request for funding was to cover running the event alone. If the Team could do it for half the offer, then they could do what they want with it, but it was primarily for the event. No one has even tried to persuade me this is wrong and that the Team expected to be funded for their own costs as well as the event costs. If I am correct, 100 mill should certainly suffice.

Your mention of Emirates raises a few questions. They have recently been splashing the cash on buildings and support for sailing in the UK. Are they exerting pressure to move out of Auckland. Shift it or we will pull all our sponsorship. This would certainly explain some of the behaviour, not excuse it for me, but certainly explain it.

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

 That defence was underfunded

 

$ 200 M for a defense with the same boat, nearly no design expenses, a one year cycle, is GD paying Guillaume Verdier $ 150 M for the optimization of the design ? ah ah ah

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I am with Four on this one!

And don't worry. Dalts & Ratcliffe will make a good Event I can guarantee you that whereever it's been held. Might be Abu Dhabi, might be Cowes! Who knows!

Well, you can sometimes be wrong :)

Obviously Ratcliffe will make a good event if in UK, or better, Ireland, but why would he spend a dime for Abu Dhabi ?

BTW isn't Ratcliffe from around Portsmouth ?

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9 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

$ 200 M for a defense with the same boat, nearly no design expenses, a one year cycle, is GD paying Guillaume Verdier $ 150 M for the optimization of the design ? ah ah ah

Te Rehutai, a 2nd generation AC75, would be no match for a third generation AC75. They know it, and so do you.

Suggesting Team NZ should defend the AC in an old boat is just absolute rubbish, even for you!

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Te Rehutai, a 2nd generation AC75, would be no match for a third generation AC75. They know it, and so do you.

Suggesting Team NZ should defend the AC in an old boat is just absolute rubbish, even for you!

 

 

So, tell me, Dalts is gonna sink $ 200 M in an 3rd generation ? Ah ah...

And, BTW, when is he going to begin spend it as he did not get the money yet ? within a 6 months period ? :lol:

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3 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

So, tell me, Dalts is gonna sink $ 200 M in an 3rd generation ? Ah ah...

And, BTW, when is he going to begin spend it as he did not get the money yet ? within a 6 months period ? :lol:

Who knows how much he plans to sink into a 3rd generation AC75. No one knows how much the teams sunk into the first or 2nd Generation AC75's! Except, I guess, you? Fuck off clown!

 

 

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7 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Hi Gissie. I thought the money was towards AC37, what didn't go to the event went to TNZ. Apologies if I am wrong. If I am then $100m should be plenty to run the event but that still leaves the question of team funding.

 

Why weird? Messie, Neymar, Beckham, Bale, Dalgleish, - all soccer players who went 'offshore' to play their sport because it meant more money yet the Argentine, Brazilian, English, Welsh, Scottish fans still revered them.

It seems that for many Kiwis it is more important to have the show at home than it is for the team to have the best chance to successfully defend in AC37 which takes money which doesn't seem to be available in New Zealand.

It also needs to be remembered that this 'outside money' is not a new thing. I would hazard a guess they would prefer to be telling the world to "Fly New Zealand" rather than "Fly Emirates" but it was the Middle East carrier that came up with the cash and isn't their long time backer an Italian? (could be wrong there)   

My own personal choice would be an event in Auckland but if New Zealand doesn't want or can't afford it then the team is left with little option other than to go 'offshore' if they want the best chance (budget) to retain the Cup in AC37

  

As did and do almost all professional sailors when taking on gigs as paid hands for foreign owners. Burling and Tuke in the VOR, Barker in the Med Cup pre ETNZ-TP52, just to name a few. 

I'm still struggling to see the difference. 

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Well, you can sometimes be wrong :)

Obviously Ratcliffe will make a good event if in UK, or better, Ireland, but why would he spend a dime for Abu Dhabi ?

BTW isn't Ratcliffe from around Portsmouth ?

No he is from Up North /Yorkshire from recollection 

but has a home in the New Forest as well as business there 

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4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Who knows how much he plans to sink into a 3rd generation AC75. No one knows how much the teams sunk into the first or 2nd Generation AC75's! Except, I guess, you? Fuck off clown!

 

 

The only people that seem to know what was actually spent were the ones shouting that nasty Jim had spent the most (Max) and Grant saying they were on rice and beans as they had so little money. 
 

so you can add them both to the fuck off list  too.. 

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

The only people that seem to know what was actually spent were the ones shouting that nasty Jim had spent the most (Max) and Grant saying they were on rice and beans as they had so little money. 
 

so you can add them both to the fuck off list  too.. 

Since Larry wants his SailGP teams to find sponsors, and wants cities to paying Hosting fees, he must be on rice and beans too huh?

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Since Larry wants his SailGP teams to find sponsors, and wants cities to paying Hosting fees, he must be on rice and beans too huh?

fEjknnjdCFWuhpS6_gFIzHsc1jL1b-iKr7qZZWGV

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Since Larry wants his SailGP teams to find sponsors, and wants cities to paying Hosting fees, he must be on rice and beans too huh?

Why are you talking about sail GP? Thought it was a shit, irrelevance that Pete was crap at? 
 

Your genuinely comparing Larry who paid for and ran multiple campaigns and cup wins with Grant that  spent more money on his fishing catermaran than they needed to keep the team afloat after Bermuda? Priorities.. 

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7 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Why are you talking about sail GP? Thought it was a shit, irrelevance that Pete was crap at? 
 

Your genuinely comparing Larry who paid for and ran multiple campaigns and cup wins with Grant that  spent more money on his fishing catermaran than they needed to keep the team afloat after Bermuda? Priorities.. 

It is shit. I'm glad you finally realize.

Larry wants to waste his money on a second rate regatta, while Dalton wants to waste his on a "catermaran" lol who cares what Dalton spends his money on? 

 

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Given that mine are only hypotheses and nothing more, I believe that the biggest problem between the Government and ETNZ was precisely the distribution of the budget. Or rather, the obligation to use it only to organize the event, and not to finance the team. I think this is the object of the dispute, rather than the figure. I remember the mess that broke out with the three million "loaned", with the MBIE called into question, the investigation and so on. I think the message was more or less: "don't do it again, please". Still following my reasoning, I believe the Government has also asked GD to take care of what he does well, that is to win the America's Cup, leaving someone else to manage the event, someone who, for example, does it by profession. Someone who isn't Tyns.S as well. 

Perhaps other locations offered more money and more flexibility in how to use them.

Speaking about other locations, @shanghaisailor what do you think are the odds of  having the AC in China ? 

I remember that for the Match there was a new sponsor on Te Rehutai mainsail (well in sight when PB was framed by the onboard camera in the cockpit) China Sports Industry. Checking on Google I found this on Reuters.com:

CHINA SPORTS INDUSTRY GROUP CO., LTD. is a China-based company primarily engaged in the sports related businesses. The Company's main businesses include the management and operations of sports events, the design, consulting, construction and management of sports venues, the production of sports content, the provision of sports related intermediary services, sports lotteries and sports real estates, among others. The Company mainly operates its businesses in domestic and overseas markets.

Interesting, no ? 

 
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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

It is shit. I'm glad you finally realize.

Larry wants to waste his money on a second rate regatta, while Dalton wants to waste his on a "catermaran" lol who cares what Dalton spends his money on? 

 

You are so stupid it hurts.

yeah Sahara else could he do with his cash? Put his money where he wants your mouth to go? Sorry, put his own cash into his beloved team instead of expecting everyone to pick up his bills..

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1 minute ago, JALhazmat said:

You are so stupid it hurts.

yeah Sahara else could he do with his cash? Put his money where he wants your mouth to go? Sorry, put his own cash into his beloved team instead of expecting everyone to pick up his bills..

Yeah right. Why should Dalton have to pour his own cash into the campaign? he's merely CEO. You don't see Coutts pouring his own money into SailGP. 

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Blah Blah blah, money talks bullshit walks especially in the AC. Remember kiddies it's EMIRATES team New Zealand 

Emirates gets what Emirates wants, they simply called in their marker.

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16 minutes ago, Caecilian said:

Blah Blah blah, money talks bullshit walks especially in the AC. Remember kiddies it's EMIRATES team New Zealand 

Emirates gets what Emirates wants, they simply called in their marker.

Unless Emirates Airlines are no longer a major sponsor.

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4 hours ago, Zaal said:

Given that mine are only hypotheses and nothing more, I believe that the biggest problem between the Government and ETNZ was precisely the distribution of the budget. Or rather, the obligation to use it only to organize the event, and not to finance the team. I think this is the object of the dispute, rather than the figure. I remember the mess that broke out with the three million "loaned", with the MBIE called into question, the investigation and so on. I think the message was more or less: "don't do it again, please". Still following my reasoning, I believe the Government has also asked GD to take care of what he does well, that is to win the America's Cup, leaving someone else to manage the event, someone who, for example, does it by profession. Someone who isn't Tyns.S as well. 

Perhaps other locations offered more money and more flexibility in how to use them.

Speaking about other locations, @shanghaisailor what do you think are the odds of  having the AC in China ? 

I remember that for the Match there was a new sponsor on Te Rehutai mainsail (well in sight when PB was framed by the onboard camera in the cockpit) China Sports Industry. Checking on Google I found this on Reuters.com:

CHINA SPORTS INDUSTRY GROUP CO., LTD. is a China-based company primarily engaged in the sports related businesses. The Company's main businesses include the management and operations of sports events, the design, consulting, construction and management of sports venues, the production of sports content, the provision of sports related intermediary services, sports lotteries and sports real estates, among others. The Company mainly operates its businesses in domestic and overseas markets.

Interesting, no ? 

 

If you remember China Sports Industry was a supporter of the Youth America's Cup which had to be canned due to the New Zealand government's lockdown and ban on (most) international arrivals. The idea of a youth foiling event along with the list of entries was then 'borrowed' by the RHKYC, only to be canned again by the Hong Kong government (that was always going to happen). The event eventually ran in Europe with a much diluted entry list.  

Wasn't the positioning of the, extremely recognisable, Chinese characters clever - kind of hard to miss, someone in China certainly understands the coverage of sailing and camera angles.

AC in China? Well, any views I express about that possibility would just be pure speculation wouldn't it?

All I would say is never say never. There are a number of cities around the Chinese coast with the finances and ability to host the event. Desire to do so? Well, we would have to wait and see.  

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1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

If you remember China Sports Industry was a supporter of the Youth America's Cup which had to be canned due to the New Zealand government's lockdown and ban on (most) international arrivals. The idea of a youth foiling event along with the list of entries was then 'borrowed' by the RHKYC, only to be canned again by the Hong Kong government (that was always going to happen). The event eventually ran in Europe with a much diluted entry list.  

Wasn't the positioning of the, extremely recognisable, Chinese characters clever - kind of hard to miss, someone in China certainly understands the coverage of sailing and camera angles.

AC in China? Well, any views I express about that possibility would just be pure speculation wouldn't it?

All I would say is never say never. There are a number of cities around the Chinese coast with the finances and ability to host the event. Desire to do so? Well, we would have to wait and see.  

So one brutal dictatorship or the other? Hope it's at least somewhere in the west. 

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I will be very disappointed if AC37 is held offshore but if the alternative is a humiliating defeat in Auckland I'll take the lesser of two weevils. If TNZ lose the cup, I won't expect to see it in the yacht squadron cabinet again in my lifetime.

The $100m offer from the government is not cash. From memory there is about $30m actual money and the rest in other support. If Emirates have pulled the pin (I'd put money on it) then the team is already on borrowed time.

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15 minutes ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

I will be very disappointed if AC37 is held offshore but if the alternative is a humiliating defeat in Auckland I'll take the lesser of two weevils.

 

What makes you believe that defending offshore can prevent a defeat ? and if it is, it will be a humiliating one, more than any previous AC defeat.

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

What makes you believe that defending offshore can prevent a defeat ? and if it is, it will be a humiliating one, more than any previous AC defeat.

If the team feels they're more likely to successfully defend offshore than in NZ, their continued success justifies that decision.

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

If the team feels they're more likely to successfully defend offshore than in NZ, their continued success justifies that decision.

Spare us the bullshit.

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4 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Spare us the bullshit.

Aww ETNZ's dominance and success is "Bullshit" to you lol

Spoken like a true jealous, bitter little loser lol

Fucking thin skinned little crybaby.

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11 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Aww ETNZ's dominance and success is "Bullshit" to you lol

Spoken like a true jealous, bitter little loser lol

Fucking thin skinned little crybaby.

ETNZ did not win by defending offshore. lol

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23 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

What makes you believe that defending offshore can prevent a defeat ? and if it is, it will be a humiliating one, more than any previous AC defeat.

I'm not sure at all. They could very well lose the cup offshore too. Dalton (and every other team) will have a very good idea of the budget required to mount a realistic campaign and $30m cash is so far off the mark it's laughable. 

I've said my 10c and I'm out again for now.

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

We speak about racing with the same boat in few months cycle.

Fuck the same boat! They might as well hand the cup over if they're going to do that! 

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Aww ETNZ's dominance and success is "Bullshit" to you lol

Spoken like a true jealous, bitter little loser lol

Fucking thin skinned little crybaby.

I am worried. You seem to project your emotions towards life on the posters that do not share your opinion. "Haters", "jealous", "bitter", man, we're just discussing a little known sail race! Emphasis on "discussing" where diverting opinions should be allowed, right? 

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14 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

I am worried. You seem to project your emotions towards life on the posters that do not share your opinion. "Haters", "jealous", "bitter", man, we're just discussing a little known sail race! Emphasis on "discussing" where diverting opinions should be allowed, right? 

Thats what you don't understand. The Americas Cup in NZ isn't a "little known sail race" its only that to those who aren't Kiwi! Its like going to England, or Spain and saying "Football is just a little known game that we call soccer" or going to India and saying "Cricket is just a little known game where you hit a ball around in the backyard.

The AC is a passion in NZ. Rugby is a passion in NZ. Kids are raised on rugby and sailing in NZ. Just as Kids in Europe and the UK are often raised on football, as soon as Kiwi kids are old enough to walk, they're down the local park throwing/ kicking a rugby ball around, or they're out on the water, either learning to sail (or fish).

This is what people don't understand about NZers. We're often fanatical, and proud of it. As Dennis Connor said in 2000, "NZ is the only place in the world you can get into a taxi, and the taxi driver tells you, what a bad jibe you made on leg number 3, in race number 2"

As for opinions, fine. Have your opinion, but I will call you out on it if its just straight trolling like TC is.

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

ETNZ did not win by defending offshore. lol

100% correct.

They won by sailing a faster boat in a smart manner. With their AC75 they would have retained the Cup on whatever water they raced on. That was because they had a properly funded team, not because they were racing on Huaraki Gulf.

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9 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Yeah right. Why should Dalton have to pour his own cash into the campaign? he's merely CEO. You don't see Coutts pouring his own money into SailGP. 

He doesnt have history for asking the Gov for a handout. 

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

What makes you believe that defending offshore can prevent a defeat ? and if it is, it will be a humiliating one, more than any previous AC defeat.

Sorry Tornado, but that is such a naïve question. To R & D the next generation of AC75 will take money, more than than was on the table and if you think INEOS, American Magic & Prada Pirelli will be standing still then you clearly haven't been watching. The budget available to Team New Zealand will be a much greater factor in the Cup being retained (or otherwise) in AC37 than which water it is sailed on.  

It is remarkable that those that are on the field of play getting down and dirty (ETNZ & RNZYS) agree that, currently, the best opportunity towards raising the required funds to give the best chance of success do not lie with the offer from New Zealand and Auckland governments.

To ignore that FACT would be irresponsible of the current Cup trustees (RNZYS) and the management of their appointed team (ETNZ).

Of course they could go along with the naysayers, and I reckon a very small % of that group would be willing to put their hands in their pockets to help the situation, and just defend on the Huaraki Gulf with limited funds and kiss the Cup goodbye. 

Make no mistake, it they are having trouble finding funds at home for a defence then their chances of finding Kiwi money for a challenge in AC38 would be next to zero because, make no mistake, without enough money to develop the boat, they would lose wherever the Cup is held in AC37

I am not a Kiwi but I AM an America's Cup fan stretching back almost 40 years. I also am the former commodore of a club that had to withdraw their challenge due to lack of funding and that was painful so I have an idea of the "rock & a hard place" that ETNZ currently find themselves in.

If ETNZ are expected, by those looking on from outside the situation, to defend without a realistic budget to put a competitive boat on the water for AC37 then they might as well fold their tents, defend in a Stewart 36 or just hand the cup over to INEOS right now.   

Thank goodness Grant Dalton & his boys are made of sterner stuff than that.

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Fuck the same boat! They might as well hand the cup over if they're going to do that! 

As proven Pete didn’t have the ability when put in an OD F50, no wonder you are already surrendering the cup and balking at even equipment ;-) 

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9 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

As proven Pete didn’t have the ability when put in an OD F50, no wonder you are already surrendering the cup and balking at even equipment ;-) 

That just means the F50 is shit. Pete clearly has the skills in the AC50, the AC75, the 49er and the Moth. So that just speaks to how shit the F50 really is.

The boat had hydraulic issues on day 1 in Bermuda, as it did for Slingsby in Taranto. Yep, shit boat.

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42 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

That just means the F50 is shit. Pete clearly has the skills in the AC50, the AC75, the 49er and the Moth. So that just speaks to how shit the F50 really is.

The boat had hydraulic issues on day 1 in Bermuda, as it did for Slingsby in Taranto. Yep, shit boat.

Losers make excuses. 

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10 hours ago, Caecilian said:

Blah Blah blah, money talks bullshit walks especially in the AC. Remember kiddies it's EMIRATES team New Zealand 

Emirates gets what Emirates wants, they simply called in their marker.

Some of you cunts need a dose of reality. Emirates Airlines just made its first loss in 30 years - US$6 billion from the COVID-19 hit.

What are they? A fucking charity?

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58 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Sorry Tornado, but that is such a naïve question. To R & D the next generation of AC75 will take money, more than than was on the table and if you think INEOS, American Magic & Prada Pirelli will be standing still then you clearly haven't been watching. The budget available to Team New Zealand will be a much greater factor in the Cup being retained (or otherwise) in AC37 than which water it is sailed on.  

It is remarkable that those that are on the field of play getting down and dirty (ETNZ & RNZYS) agree that, currently, the best opportunity towards raising the required funds to give the best chance of success do not lie with the offer from New Zealand and Auckland governments.

To ignore that FACT would be irresponsible of the current Cup trustees (RNZYS) and the management of their appointed team (ETNZ).

Of course they could go along with the naysayers, and I reckon a very small % of that group would be willing to put their hands in their pockets to help the situation, and just defend on the Huaraki Gulf with limited funds and kiss the Cup goodbye. 

Make no mistake, it they are having trouble finding funds at home for a defence then their chances of finding Kiwi money for a challenge in AC38 would be next to zero because, make no mistake, without enough money to develop the boat, they would lose wherever the Cup is held in AC37

I am not a Kiwi but I AM an America's Cup fan stretching back almost 40 years. I also am the former commodore of a club that had to withdraw their challenge due to lack of funding and that was painful so I have an idea of the "rock & a hard place" that ETNZ currently find themselves in.

If ETNZ are expected, by those looking on from outside the situation, to defend without a realistic budget to put a competitive boat on the water for AC37 then they might as well fold their tents, defend in a Stewart 36 or just hand the cup over to INEOS right now.   

Thank goodness Grant Dalton & his boys are made of sterner stuff than that.

Bold: I thought the money issue at hand is about hosting the event, not building a new boat for the team. Shouldn't this be two separate budgets, even with the same CEO?

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7 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Some of you cunts need a dose of reality. Emirates Airlines just made its first loss in 30 years - US$6 billion from the COVID-19 hit.

What are they? A fucking charity? 

 

They are not a charity.

The best thing happened for a sad reason.  Too many people flying about for no good reason.  The world has changed for the better now that all that unnecessary travel has been stopped.

If the AC cannot happen without the support of a company that is fucking the planet, so be it.  Dubai is a fucking obscenity on the planet.

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42 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

I am worried. You seem to project your emotions towards life on the posters that do not share your opinion. "Haters", "jealous", "bitter", man, we're just discussing a little known sail race! Emphasis on "discussing" where diverting opinions should be allowed, right? 

 

Hi Rennie, I am worried too, that that is not a fair assertion on your part. Fore is passionately defending the honour of his team, including the often malicious personal attacks on it's CEO. Admittedly, he does that sometimes in a tiresome way, or is simply mistaken like all of us at some point.

But several of the "posters that do not share your opinion" that you talk about, are definitely not discussing diverting opinions. They are plain and simply trolling Fore, endlessly and boringly. They are not defending their teams, they are simply haters indeed. No need to mention their names, you know who they are.

Now, now that I have your attention, I like to tell you something, if you don't mind. You are and have been one of the most valuable, honest, and polite posters in this AC forum, and elsewhere. I also had the honour to meet you in person in Scheveningen, which was very special to me. Also we mostly seem to agree in lots of matters.

Alas, lately you seem to gone over a bit too much to the "dark side" so to say. That you rigoureusly defend the original principles of the DOG is to be admired, although I think it would be reasonable to be a bit more flexible. So that is not a problem.

But what I do find a bit disappointing is that you more and more agree and likey several of those trolling haters as mentioned earlier, and that appears to be mutually, naturally.

Not a big thing for me, and I hope I don't sound patronizing, just wanted to say this. Love you anyway!

 

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44 minutes ago, random. said:

Too many people flying about for no good reason.

What are you? The COVID Grinch?

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

What are you? The COVID Grinch?

No, just someone interested in having a planet to live on.

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1 minute ago, random. said:

No, just someone interested in having a planet to live on.

I hear Mars is tolerable this time of year.

Not sure what commercial airline will get you there though. Virgin Galactic maybe?

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3 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

I hear Mars is tolerable this time of year.

Not sure what commercial airline will get you there though. Virgin Galactic maybe?

That's what fucked Mars, too many people flew about spewing greenhouse gasses.

We should learn from that.

Sailing/yachting needs to have a good hard think about it's future.  Get back to the simple life, stop depending on planet fucking behavior.  Well, there is the problem I suppose.  At the AC level it is not a sport, it's big business.

Why does fun have to be monetized?

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52 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

 

Hi Rennie, I am worried too, that that is not a fair assertion on your part. Fore is passionately defending the honour of his team, including the often malicious personal attacks on it's CEO. Admittedly, he does that sometimes in a tiresome way, or is simply mistaken like all of us at some point.

But several of the "posters that do not share your opinion" that you talk about, are definitely not discussing diverting opinions. They are plain and simply trolling Fore, endlessly and boringly. They are not defending their teams, they are simply haters indeed. No need to mention their names, you know who they are.

Now, now that I have your attention, I like to tell you something, if you don't mind. You are and have been one of the most valuable, honest, and polite posters in this AC forum, and elsewhere. I also had the honour to meet you in person in Scheveningen, which was very special to me. Also we mostly seem to agree in lots of matters.

Alas, lately you seem to gone over a bit too much to the "dark side" so to say. That you rigoureusly defend the original principles of the DOG is to be admired, although I think it would be reasonable to be a bit more flexible. So that is not a problem.

But what I do find a bit disappointing is that you more and more agree and likey several of those trolling haters as mentioned earlier, and that appears to be mutually, naturally.

Not a big thing for me, and I hope I don't sound patronizing, just wanted to say this. Love you anyway!

 

Love you too, but it seems that you have a wrong picture of me. I have actually not changed a bit, as I always try to apply the same standards, no matter who the defender is. It was all o.k. as long as Oracle was criticized, but now that ETNZ pulls similar stunts, all of a sudden it's not? Well, I try to stay honest, saves me the mental gymnastics to justify ETNZ's shenanigans.

Unfortunately, I was way too lenient with ETNZ until now (It's the AC after all, you know), and with the whole offshore defense issue they crossed the Rubicon for me.
 

Quote

Fore is passionately defending the honour of his team, including the often malicious personal attacks on it's CEO. Admittedly, he does that sometimes in a tiresome way, or is simply mistaken like all of us at some point.

But several of the "posters that do not share your opinion" that you talk about, are definitely not discussing diverting opinions. They are plain and simply trolling Fore, endlessly and boringly. They are not defending their teams, they are simply haters indeed. No need to mention their names, you know who they are.

You call it "passionately defending", I call it "fanatic blindness". Regarding trolling, both sides are the same. I am pretty sure JAL thinks, For is trolling. As for "haters", "jealous", "losers"... I haven't seen JAL or TC to try to shut down a thread with these thought-terminating clichés, but I might have overlooked them, not reading each and every post.

"Not defending their teams", you wrote. What if they actually have no team (similar to me), but only want to see a real AC? Maybe they defend their idea of the AC? Is it a must to have a team?
For me, it's about the AC, and IMO ETNZ plays fast and loose with the Cup, as almost every previous defender did. Not more, not less, but I will call them out on it, as I did with Alinghi and Oracle.
 

Quote

 

Now, now that I have your attention, I like to tell you something, if you don't mind. You are and have been one of the most valuable, honest, and polite posters in this AC forum, and elsewhere. I also had the honour to meet you in person in Scheveningen, which was very special to me. Also we mostly seem to agree in lots of matters.

Alas, lately you seem to gone over a bit too much to the "dark side" so to say. That you rigoureusly defend the original principles of the DOG is to be admired, although I think it would be reasonable to be a bit more flexible. So that is not a problem.

But what I do find a bit disappointing is that you more and more agree and likey several of those trolling haters as mentioned earlier, and that appears to be mutually, naturally.

 

Thank you, I enjoy having met you as well. It was cool, special and a pleasure. Nevertheless, I have the impression that when we agree, all is hunky dory, but when not then what?`"Dark side" - really?

I tried to learn and defend the Deed since I made it my hobby (one of them at least). Just because ETNZ is now the target of my criticism, it's not good, but it was good for Evil Larry? Nope, I won't spare specific defenders out of wrong loyalty.

By the way, there is no rule in the DoG that mandates a team to defend in its home waters. So, I don't really understand what my defending of the DoG has to do with this discussion.
What I hold against ETNZ is that they are playing the nationality card ("Bring the Cup home...") since decades, get gov money since decades, play the White Knight" since decades, and once the road get rocky, desert their nation and don't bring/keep the Cup home, but whore it out offshore to the highest paying punter. Like Alinghi (real estate deals in VLC), like Oracle (Larry did not get the piers he wanted). And there is so much more: Where have all the teams been that were promised to enter AC36? The cost containment? The free worldwide broadcast? Sounds like AC34 and even more AC35, right? ETNZ's defense is very similar to Oracle's, so why not criticize it in a similar way?

TC and JAL are trolls sometimes, but also have good arguments sometimes/often. I can like one post of them and don't like another. TC's opinion about Covid handing or his love for catamarans are absolutely contrary to my PoV, but when it comes to how ETNZ handles the AC37 defense, I'm with him. If having standards is going to the "Dark Side", I'l gladly become Darth Rennmaus.
 

Quote

Not a big thing for me, and I hope I don't sound patronizing, just wanted to say this. Love you anyway!

Neither for me, it's a little known sail race, and you don't sound patronizing at all. You are entitled to read my posts as you want and apply the tone you hear in your inner ear.
I'm just a bit disappointed that you haven't recognized that I haven't changed my stance, that I am not blindly following a team, and that I will call BS when I see some and the team doesn't live up to its promises. I find it hard to understand that people can be so blind, that's why I regularly break my vow not to engage with For, but anyway, for me it's just a light pastime, and life is somewhere else.

Love you too, and I hope to see you again, and then discuss these matters in more detail and more eloquently.

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5 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Sorry Tornado, but that is such a naïve question. To R & D the next generation of AC75 will take money, more than than was on the table and if you think INEOS, American Magic & Prada Pirelli will be standing still then you clearly haven't been watching. The budget available to Team New Zealand will be a much greater factor in the Cup being retained (or otherwise) in AC37 than which water it is sailed on.  

 

Partly agree, budget is key, their is another factor in the AC: time.

The time spent to shop another venue is not helping. Also, I don't know how reliable figures are but: if it is true the NZ gvt proposed $ 100 M, or even $40 M "only", it is still a lot for the improvement of an already existing class in a short period of time.

Some have been writing that GD is looking for $ 200 M, but for what ? to spend it in a few months before AC37 ? It makes no sense to me.

You have the right to believe that the reason to shop the venue is to have bigger chance to win, it also provide some "excuse" for their favourite team, well, I don't believe it.

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4 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Love you too, but it seems that you have a wrong picture of me. I have actually not changed a bit, as I always try to apply the same standards, no matter who the defender is. It was all o.k. as long as Oracle was criticized, but now that ETNZ pulls similar stunts, all of a sudden it's not? Well, I try to stay honest, saves me the mental gymnastics to justify ETNZ's shenanigans.

Unfortunately, I was way too lenient with ETNZ until now (It's the AC after all, you know), and with the whole offshore defense issue they crossed the Rubicon for me.
 

You call it "passionately defending", I call it "fanatic blindness". Regarding trolling, both sides are the same. I am pretty sure JAL thinks, For is trolling. As for "haters", "jealous", "losers"... I haven't seen JAL or TC to try to shut down a thread with these thought-terminating clichés, but I might have overlooked them, not reading each and every post.

"Not defending their teams", you wrote. What if they actually have no team (similar to me), but only want to see a real AC? Maybe they defend their idea of the AC? Is it a must to have a team?
For me, it's about the AC, and IMO ETNZ plays fast and loose with the Cup, as almost every previous defender did. Not more, not less, but I will call them out on it, as I did with Alinghi and Oracle.
 

Thank you, I enjoy having met you as well. It was cool, special and a pleasure. Nevertheless, I have the impression that when we agree, all is hunky dory, but when not then what?`"Dark side" - really?

I tried to learn and defend the Deed since I made it my hobby (one of them at least). Just because ETNZ is now the target of my criticism, it's not good, but it was good for Evil Larry? Nope, I won't spare specific defenders out of wrong loyalty.

By the way, there is no rule in the DoG that mandates a team to defend in its home waters. So, I don't really understand what my defending of the DoG has to do with this discussion.
What I hold against ETNZ is that they are playing the nationality card ("Bring the Cup home...") since decades, get gov money since decades, play the White Knight" since decades, and once the road get rocky, desert their nation and don't bring/keep the Cup home, but whore it out offshore to the highest paying punter. Like Alinghi (real estate deals in VLC), like Oracle (Larry did not get the piers he wanted). And there is so much more: Where have all the teams been that were promised to enter AC36? The cost containment? The free worldwide broadcast? Sounds like AC34 and even more AC35, right? ETNZ's defense is very similar to Oracle's, so why not criticize it in a similar way?

TC and JAL are trolls sometimes, but also have good arguments sometimes/often. I can like one post of them and don't like another. TC's opinion about Covid handing or his love for catamarans are absolutely contrary to my PoV, but when it comes to how ETNZ handles the AC37 defense, I'm with him. If having standards is going to the "Dark Side", I'l gladly become Darth Rennmaus.
 

Neither for me, it's a little known sail race, and you don't sound patronizing at all. You are entitled to read my posts as you want and apply the tone you hear in your inner ear.
I'm just a bit disappointed that you haven't recognized that I haven't changed my stance, that I am not blindly following a team, and that I will call BS when I see some and the team doesn't live up to its promises. I find it hard to understand that people can be so blind, that's why I regularly break my vow not to engage with For, but anyway, for me it's just a light pastime, and life is somewhere else.

Love you too, and I hope to see you again, and then discuss these matters in more detail and more eloquently.

I have made zero secret that I have often trolled 4 specifically for his whiter than white saint GD defence.  After all that is precisely what he is doing with the poor me/us against the world act, trolling the forum wanting the response. 
 

through the pages and pages of INEOS “coverage/mud slinging” I played the straight bat with out the personal insults just fact or observation 99%of the time. 

the my team is better/more moral than yours is all shit too, something that supporters of all teams should be able to admit and then actually stfu and stop throwing stones as not one of them existis without a source of funding that can and does elicit a negative response from the environmentalists, human rights supporters, etc. 
 

 

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7 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Sorry Tornado, but that is such a naïve question. To R & D the next generation of AC75 will take money, more than than was on the table and if you think INEOS, American Magic & Prada Pirelli will be standing still then you clearly haven't been watching. The budget available to Team New Zealand will be a much greater factor in the Cup being retained (or otherwise) in AC37 than which water it is sailed on.  

It is remarkable that those that are on the field of play getting down and dirty (ETNZ & RNZYS) agree that, currently, the best opportunity towards raising the required funds to give the best chance of success do not lie with the offer from New Zealand and Auckland governments.

To ignore that FACT would be irresponsible of the current Cup trustees (RNZYS) and the management of their appointed team (ETNZ).

Of course they could go along with the naysayers, and I reckon a very small % of that group would be willing to put their hands in their pockets to help the situation, and just defend on the Huaraki Gulf with limited funds and kiss the Cup goodbye. 

Make no mistake, it they are having trouble finding funds at home for a defence then their chances of finding Kiwi money for a challenge in AC38 would be next to zero because, make no mistake, without enough money to develop the boat, they would lose wherever the Cup is held in AC37

I am not a Kiwi but I AM an America's Cup fan stretching back almost 40 years. I also am the former commodore of a club that had to withdraw their challenge due to lack of funding and that was painful so I have an idea of the "rock & a hard place" that ETNZ currently find themselves in.

If ETNZ are expected, by those looking on from outside the situation, to defend without a realistic budget to put a competitive boat on the water for AC37 then they might as well fold their tents, defend in a Stewart 36 or just hand the cup over to INEOS right now.   

Thank goodness Grant Dalton & his boys are made of sterner stuff than that.

Fun post.

For decades, the AC was defended on home waters even though the DOG does not specify this.  There was a home water advantage because the defender had selection trials on the defender's home water and the best boat for local conditions would emerge.  This changed when Allinghi defended the cup in Spain and then occurred again when Oracle defended in Bermuda. In both cases the teams were well funded , single defenses that sought an international location .  Both had reasons to look around at other locations than their club.   The precedent has been established. 

In the case of TNZ, the motivation is different and emotional in many ways because they are not looking at other locations either because they dont have a suitable local location (Allinghi). Auckland is clearly suitable for racing.Nor because they dont have local support (Oracle). The NZ govt and Auckland city are clearly as supportive as they can be and much more supportive than any other government or city.  The reason TNZ has found itself looking around is that they are an extremely succesful team from a very small nation, and they are struggling to find sponsorship and funding for an AC in Auckland. The CEO is focused on fund raising and one of the avenues he believes he must explore is looking at other locations.

If I was a kiwi (Im not), I would hope that TNZ finds sponsors and funding to support a credible Auckland defense, but if the funding meant defending the cup offshore, I would still be supporting my team.

Surely the support for the All Blacks is not affected by where the Rugby World Cup is held.  I realize it is very different and there is something special about "defending" the America's cup.

Ironically in this case, TNZ is the only team from the four participants last time around that has uncertain funding.  It is a unique sporting event, where the players are professional but the sport does not generate revenue and is really a playground for the rich.

 

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27 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Companies that lose money don't necessarily stop advertising.

There was an interesting line in a recent article on Stuff.whatever. They called Emirates Airlines and were told there are no changes to Emirates support of ETNZ. While the person they spoke to could be mistaken, they may actually be right. 

What concerns me most is about if, given the choice to run a well-enough funded Defense in NZ, just like they did this year, versus taking an option overseas that 'over'-funds what is necessary (ie: in it for PROFIT by a few key people), that they make the profit choice.

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2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

I have made zero secret that I have often trolled 4 specifically for his whiter than white saint GD defence.  After all that is precisely what he is doing with the poor me/us against the world act, trolling the forum wanting the response. 
 

through the pages and pages of INEOS “coverage/mud slinging” I played the straight bat with out the personal insults just fact or observation 99%of the time. 

the my team is better/more moral than yours is all shit too, something that supporters of all teams should be able to admit and then actually stfu and stop throwing stones as not one of them existis without a source of funding that can and does elicit a negative response from the environmentalists, human rights supporters, etc. 
 

 

I have said before and will say again, when GD does something "wrong" and any of the haters can provide a GOOD explanation why, or what rules he's broken, I'll absolutely listen. 

BUT there's been nothing, NOTHING. The only arguments that have been made is Dalton is "Whoring the event out" You mean doing his job, and ensuring the security of his team? Ensuring his team has what they need to ensure they give themselves every chance to defend successfully? Yes. Its his job as CEO. Commercial realities as a result of Covid 19 have resulted in the current global economic environment.

The other argument is "He's a bad man and I don't like his behaviour" This isn't even worth addressing.

If ETNZ is caught red handed cheating, as Oracle did, or replaces the Class Rule mid cycle as Oracle did, or breaches a host agreement as Oracle did, or attempts a mutiny on a race official boat because they don't wanna start a race as Alinghi did, or removes content from YouTube as Oracle did, I will call them out on it, but there's nothing, NOTHING.

As for @JALhazmat trolling, Yes, he does, and yes he is a troll. Same with @Tornado-Cat. They're both trolls, pure and simple. Thats all they are. All his moaning about Team NZ is purely jealousy. I know that. They know that. 

I didn't start the trolling, but I WILL troll them back, if and when they troll me, then and ONLY then. The funny thing is @JALhazmat can dish it out but he can't take it.

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32 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

You'd know all about that.

You calling Pete and Blair "Losers" says more about you than me.

they entered and F50 event, a 'cash grab' in your words and they lost. simple eh?

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

Companies that lose money don't necessarily stop advertising.  

Losing offshore would be karma indeed.

Sponsorships always end. This may have been the end anyway for Emirates covid or no covid. It makes a nice excuse for Clarkey and GD, but maybe E just didn't see any return for their investment as the Kiwi's slowly squeeze the life out of the AC. 

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41 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Sponsorships always end. This may have been the end anyway for Emirates covid or no covid. It makes a nice excuse for Clarkey and GD, but maybe E just didn't see any return for their investment as the Kiwi's slowly squeeze the life out of the AC. 

The AC is just another sponsorship agreement. One of many for them. If they didn’t see a return on investment they wouldn’t have stayed with the team for 17 years as they have. Yours is the excuse, but it’s not reality.

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

they entered and F50 event, a 'cash grab' in your words and they lost. simple eh?

Ugh. They lost 3 races in the AC and still won the event. All that matters is who wins at the end. Who holds the silverware. Winning regattas is irrelevant if you don’t win the Championship, something they’re still in with a chance to do. So no one has won or lost anything yet.

it’s like if you called a boxer a loser because he lost one round of a fight but won the other 9 rounds. It’s just not reality. You’re grasping for straws to find something, anything so you can say either ETNZ or NZ SailGP team are “losers” 

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

they entered and F50 event, a 'cash grab' in your words and they lost. simple eh?

“Cash grab” isn’t my words. Its yours. My words were “paycheck”.

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Ha, ha. NZ Herald quoting their poll of 1,000 Kiwis - with 43% believing the Government/Council offer of $99 million (in kind and cash) 'was sufficient'.

"America's Cup Minister Stuart Nash and Auckland Mayor Phil Goff said the poll indicates the $99m offer was sufficient and they got the balance right."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/americas-cup-poll-how-kiwis-feel-about-the-governments-99m-bid-to-keep-cup-in-nz/VQK6PLHA2GS7NFB2RUVQM5DWDQ/

Clearly, it wasn't, which is why they were told to fuck off. 

You couldn't make this shit up.

 

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49 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The AC is just another sponsorship agreement. One of many for them. If they didn’t see a return on investment they wouldn’t have stayed with the team for 17 years as they have. Yours is the excuse, but it’s not reality.

Because the return on investment always stays the same? It's just a fucking excuse. You literally had a worldwide captive audience for the AC and then put the thing behind a fucking paywall. No wonder Emirates doesn't want to waste money anymore on this.

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13 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Because the return on investment always stays the same? It's just a fucking excuse. You literally had a worldwide captive audience for the AC and then put the thing behind a fucking paywall. No wonder Emirates doesn't want to waste money anymore on this.

No, it doesn’t. But it was clearly and obviously satisfactory, as they have been with the team for 17 years and haven’t confirmed the end of that sponsorship to date. Which is it? One minute it’s a “little known sail race” and no one outside cares about it, to next minute being a worldwide captive audience! I swear you people don’t know the meaning of the word consistency.

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22 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Ha, ha. NZ Herald quoting their poll of 1,000 Kiwis - with 43% believing the Government/Council offer of $99 million (in kind and cash) 'was sufficient'.

"America's Cup Minister Stuart Nash and Auckland Mayor Phil Goff said the poll indicates the $99m offer was sufficient and they got the balance right."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/americas-cup-poll-how-kiwis-feel-about-the-governments-99m-bid-to-keep-cup-in-nz/VQK6PLHA2GS7NFB2RUVQM5DWDQ/

Clearly, it wasn't, which is why they were told to fuck off. 

You couldn't make this shit up.

 

.Paywall :(

What does the balance 57% think?

 

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12 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Bold: I thought the money issue at hand is about hosting the event, not building a new boat for the team. Shouldn't this be two separate budgets, even with the same CEO?

This seems to be a common misunderstanding. The funds asked for by the team and offered by the government are to cover hosting the event. If it can be done cheaper then the team can use what is left over, but it is primarily to cover event costs. The cost of running the team and designing/building a defending boat is a totally different funding game.

This is exactly the same as the last defense in Auckland. The government and local council provided funds to ensure the event could be run. The team paid for its own costs. Kiwis, fairly in my opinion, are questioning how the event could possibly cost more than 99 mill to run.

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27 minutes ago, Gissie said:

This seems to be a common misunderstanding. The funds asked for by the team and offered by the government are to cover hosting the event. If it can be done cheaper then the team can use what is left over, but it is primarily to cover event costs. The cost of running the team and designing/building a defending boat is a totally different funding game.

This is exactly the same as the last defense in Auckland. The government and local council provided funds to ensure the event could be run. The team paid for its own costs. Kiwis, fairly in my opinion, are questioning how the event could possibly cost more than 99 mill to run.

What they should be questioning is how much of that offer was cash, and how much was kindness.

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47 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

What they should be questioning is how much of that offer was cash, and how much was kindness.

That is open information. 40 million in cash, the rest in services like accommodation for all the teams. 40 mill for a two month regatta would seem reasonable money to most.

Not you of course. You seem to feel the government should just hand over a blank check at leave them to it. Fair enough, we all have different opinions.

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Exactly, and of course if the money is to cover the event (which it is) then it doesn't mean that ETNZ are disadvantaged in any way by taking it, because they can still get sponsorship for their campaign. 

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13 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Some of you cunts need a dose of reality. Emirates Airlines just made its first loss in 30 years - US$6 billion from the COVID-19 hit.

What are they? A fucking charity?

Ok so they lost a few bucks carrying bone saws for free to Istanbul but fuck them. You seem to miss the point while making the point- the AC is a business so quit whining

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2 hours ago, pusslicker said:

Because the return on investment always stays the same? It's just a fucking excuse. You literally had a worldwide captive audience for the AC and then put the thing behind a fucking paywall. No wonder Emirates doesn't want to waste money anymore on this.

Sorry buddy, but in many countries you could watch the livestream for free. I watched it using my VPN in English (FOR FREE) while my wife watched it - with an excellent Chinese commentary -  on one of the many FREE feeds here in China.

A 'paywall' or 'pay per view' is used as a means of funding utilised by many sports (and other events) and spectators paying to watch an event is hardly a new concept or should one expect everything for free?

 

 

 

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