terrafirma 1,339 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 Dalts told to walk the plank...! LOL (Don't you love that as a headline!) https://www.sail-world.com/news/241302/Gladwells-Line-Dalts-told-to-walk-the-plank 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PJB 49 Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 Surprised by the paucity of comment, speculation or innuendo regarding Dunphy and his old superiors Fay/Richwhite. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rh3000 1,883 Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 2 hours ago, PJB said: Surprised by the paucity of comment, speculation or innuendo regarding Dunphy and his old superiors Fay/Richwhite. I thought it would be more fun to watch stingers work it all out, I was wrong... he didn't... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted September 8, 2021 Share Posted September 8, 2021 21 hours ago, PJB said: Surprised by the paucity of comment, speculation or innuendo regarding Dunphy and his old superiors Fay/Richwhite. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChairborneRanger 81 Posted September 8, 2021 Share Posted September 8, 2021 On 9/2/2021 at 9:09 AM, Gissie said: Absolute pr spin. Sending out an unsigned letter of support to the media. Dalton really does think we are all to stupid to be taken seriously. You old dogs see conspiracy everywhere. Have you considered that since "the team" is so tight and their culture has always shied away from elevating individuals that it was likely just easier to have no signatures, then decide where to stop within the team roster. I know, it's too simple and boring... That would be too dull for the drama llamas here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted September 8, 2021 Share Posted September 8, 2021 FFS. They didn’t want one person to sign it because it was obviously an entire team perspective. It’s that simple! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted September 8, 2021 Share Posted September 8, 2021 24 minutes ago, ChairborneRanger said: You old dogs see conspiracy everywhere. Have you considered that since "the team" is so tight and their culture has always shied away from elevating individuals that it was likely just easier to have no signatures, then decide where to stop within the team roster. I know, it's too simple and boring... That would be too dull for the drama llamas here. If it is the whole team, why bother with all the spin? A simple statement that the team is fully behind the present choices would have sufficed. They are making the drama by sending out such a puff piece. Almost like a - don’t look here - sort of crap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 2 hours ago, Gissie said: If it is the whole team, why bother with all the spin? A simple statement that the team is fully behind the present choices would have sufficed. They are making the drama by sending out such a puff piece. Almost like a - don’t look here - sort of crap. What spin? All they said was they stand behind Dalton 100%. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 42 minutes ago, Forourselves said: What spin? All they said was they stand behind Dalton 100%. You said exactly that with just five words. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 50 minutes ago, Gissie said: You said exactly that with just five words. Yes. Surely an explanation behind the reason they felt they needed to back Grant Dalton publicly is reasonable don't you think? Dunphy's deal had gone public. That deal at that time, was conditional on Dalton stepping down. The implication being, Dalton being employed by Team NZ is the reason why NZ would not be hosting the AC in NZ. Surely the team clarifying that position is both appropriate and reasonable. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Forourselves said: Yes. Surely an explanation behind the reason they felt they needed to back Grant Dalton publicly is reasonable don't you think? Dunphy's deal had gone public. That deal at that time, was conditional on Dalton stepping down. The implication being, Dalton being employed by Team NZ is the reason why NZ would not be hosting the AC in NZ. Surely the team clarifying that position is both appropriate and reasonable. It is reasonable, but as Dalton is also part of the team, making it a generic message from the team would be odd. In the end of the day I don’t really care, but it was a big word salad for a message you got in five words. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 1 minute ago, Gissie said: It is reasonable, but as Dalton is also part of the team, making it a generic message from the team would be odd. In the end of the day I don’t really care, but it was a big word salad for a message you got in five words. Its VERY SIMPLE. Dalton is CEO of the team. Meaning he's in charge. Dunphy wanted him gone, the Team didn't. They explained why. I mean maybe if the Herald just came out and said "We think Grant Dalton is a cunt, we don't care about his achievements, we aren't interested in the billionaire pissing match that is the America's Cup or any of the teams or who wins it but its our job to report on it" maybe we might get a short sharp response, but obviously they can't do that, and neither can the Team. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
armchairadmiral 54 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 The Herald is to TNZ & Grant what Kim Philby was to MI6 and Britain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sea Breeze 74 712 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 Has anyone heard of Dunphy before the last few weeks? Dunphy is in the shallow end of the gene pool, rattling his sabre and pretending to be the big man with the big money and the big friends. We all know someone like that. He wants attention he wants validation. He is a tool. Anyone remember the fourth challenger for AC36? Team Altus Malta. Pasquale Cataldi is the Maltese equivalent of Dunphy. A man who wants to be bigger than he is. Make lots of noise. Be important. By the time AC37 gets underway, nobody here will remember who he is was. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 https://www.americascup.com/en/news/1277_ROYAL-NEW-ZEALAND-YACHT-SQUADRON-ROYAL-YACHT-SQUADRON-LTD-PROVIDE-GLIMPSE-OF-PROTOCOL-FOR-THE-NEXT-AMERICAS-CUP-WITH-THE-AC40-AND-WOMENS-AND-YOUTH-AMERICAS-CUP-EVENTS?fbclid=IwAR14WGdNQ4lfcSb5AkuyjTqVJj1yF3YsvpcgMx7m4WhAGT8pNLoFMB8w8d8 ROYAL NEW ZEALAND YACHT SQUADRON & ROYAL YACHT SQUADRON LTD PROVIDE GLIMPSE OF PROTOCOL FOR THE NEXT AMERICA’S CUP WITH THE AC40 AND WOMENS AND YOUTH AMERICA’S CUP EVENTS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kiwing 509 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 looks great! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dg_sailingfan 70 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Kiwing said: looks great! It is and it makes perfect sense! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kiwing 509 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 Radio NZ says "second class" boat for the women or something similar, I believe this AC40 might put the ac75 into an inferior class, being nearly as fast and more agile. Might be fun if they beat an AC75 in a race?!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sea Breeze 74 712 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 3 hours ago, Kiwing said: Might be fun if they beat an AC75 in a race?!! I think we all wanted to see Te Kahu line up against an AC75. That was one cool test boat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kate short for Bob 438 Posted September 9, 2021 Share Posted September 9, 2021 5 hours ago, Forourselves said: https://www.americascup.com/en/news/1277_ROYAL-NEW-ZEALAND-YACHT-SQUADRON-ROYAL-YACHT-SQUADRON-LTD-PROVIDE-GLIMPSE-OF-PROTOCOL-FOR-THE-NEXT-AMERICAS-CUP-WITH-THE-AC40-AND-WOMENS-AND-YOUTH-AMERICAS-CUP-EVENTS?fbclid=IwAR14WGdNQ4lfcSb5AkuyjTqVJj1yF3YsvpcgMx7m4WhAGT8pNLoFMB8w8d8 ROYAL NEW ZEALAND YACHT SQUADRON & ROYAL YACHT SQUADRON LTD PROVIDE GLIMPSE OF PROTOCOL FOR THE NEXT AMERICA’S CUP WITH THE AC40 AND WOMENS AND YOUTH AMERICA’S CUP EVENTS Goodnight Sail GP. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nav 591 Posted September 10, 2021 Share Posted September 10, 2021 The Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron (RNZYS) and Defender Emirates Team New Zealand (ETNZ) along with the Royal Yacht Squadron Ltd (RYSL) and Challenger of Record INEOS Team UK today announce........ way to keep it factual guys 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yoyo 248 Posted September 10, 2021 Share Posted September 10, 2021 So maybe the AC40 traveling side show is another part in the puzzle as to why 100M is not enough for TNZ to do an AC campaign at home. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted September 10, 2021 Share Posted September 10, 2021 1 hour ago, yoyo said: So maybe the AC40 traveling side show is another part in the puzzle as to why 100M is not enough for TNZ to do an AC campaign at home. Yeah, have to wonder why a team struggling to fund their defense thinks having to build more boats and ship them all over the world is a good idea. Nut job comes to mind. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChairborneRanger 81 Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 2 hours ago, Gissie said: Yeah, have to wonder why a team struggling to fund their defense thinks having to build more boats and ship them all over the world is a good idea. Nut job comes to mind. Because it makes sense. They build one, license the other builds out, and each team then pays ETNZ 2 to 3 million per boat, giving ETNZ, not just another revenue source and cash for the defense, but also more teams overall that may then join AC38 as full fledged AC75 sailing teams. It's a great idea. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeedAClew 1,786 Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 Assuming they don't find themselves struggling in an enlarged field of challengers in AC38. Won't be CoR either in that case unless they send their Commodore over to ride on Sir Jim's spectator yacht. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 1 hour ago, ChairborneRanger said: Because it makes sense. They build one, license the other builds out, and each team then pays ETNZ 2 to 3 million per boat, giving ETNZ, not just another revenue source and cash for the defense, but also more teams overall that may then join AC38 as full fledged AC75 sailing teams. It's a great idea. So they make what, 10 to 20 million, if lucky. For that they need to have more staff and more crew to race them. Then they need to send their boat and crew all over the world to do a bit of racing. So if 99 mill isn't enough to run the AC in Dorkland, what difference will 20 mill (minus all the other costs) make. Apart from giving them more this to distract them from the main prize. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stingray~ 2,275 Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 2 minutes ago, Gissie said: So they make what, 10 to 20 million, if lucky. For that they need to have more staff and more crew to race them. Then they need to send their boat and crew all over the world to do a bit of racing. So if 99 mill isn't enough to run the AC in Dorkland, what difference will 20 mill (minus all the other costs) make. Apart from giving them more this to distract them from the main prize. The AC40 yacht and sales arrangement could be part of the rumored kick-back to RNZYS (Aaron Young in particular) to convince the RNZYS to endorse ETNZ taking the Cup away from NZ. But even if so, I do like the overall idea. Te Kahu was an awesome boat, these are likely to be as good or better. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 37 minutes ago, Gissie said: So they make what, 10 to 20 million, if lucky. For that they need to have more staff and more crew to race them. Then they need to send their boat and crew all over the world to do a bit of racing. So if 99 mill isn't enough to run the AC in Dorkland, what difference will 20 mill (minus all the other costs) make. Apart from giving them more this to distract them from the main prize. Now you're getting it. No, they aren't broke. They've never been broke. If they were, like I said months ago, they'd be in no position to decline the NZ Government offer like they did. Money isn't the issue. It never has been the issue, thats just the moronic story the usual suspects trot out at the beginning of every cycle because it makes them feel good. The issue are the strings attached to that money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 7 minutes ago, Forourselves said: Now you're getting it. No, they aren't broke. They've never been broke. If they were, like I said months ago, they'd be in no position to decline the NZ Government offer like they did. Money isn't the issue. It never has been the issue, thats just the moronic story the usual suspects trot out at the beginning of every cycle because it makes them feel good. The issue are the strings attached to that money. I though you said it was all about our locked borders. Now it's all about having money with no strings attached. The only way to have that is to be the billionaire. Going around the world, cap in hand for the best offer will always have strings attached. Even the Irish aren't that stupid... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Stingray~ said: The AC40 yacht and sales arrangement could be part of the rumored kick-back to RNZYS (Aaron Young in particular) to convince the RNZYS to endorse ETNZ taking the Cup away from NZ. But even if so, I do like the overall idea. Te Kahu was an awesome boat, these are likely to be as good or better. Not sure how much building three new boats will make for anyone. Barely pay for the tooling. Or are they going to get 75 teams fronting up to splash tons of money on the extreme side of the sport with little to no return? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 2 minutes ago, Gissie said: I though you said it was all about our locked borders. Now it's all about having money with no strings attached. The only way to have that is to be the billionaire. Going around the world, cap in hand for the best offer will always have strings attached. Even the Irish aren't that stupid... Yes, the locked borders are a "string" attached to that money, by the way of not confirming what state those borders will be in in 2024. Yes, they'll all have strings attached, but it depends who can make the offer with the least strings attached, coupled with the offer that presents the best financial security for both the event and the team itself. Billionaires have come, and billionaires have gone, often leaving leaving a trail of destruction in their wake for the next Defender to clean up. The era of the billionaire is not a memorable one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Forourselves said: Yes, the locked borders are a "string" attached to that money, by the way of not confirming what state those borders will be in in 2024. Yes, they'll all have strings attached, but it depends who can make the offer with the least strings attached, coupled with the offer that presents the best financial security for both the event and the team itself. Billionaires have come, and billionaires have gone, often leaving leaving a trail of destruction in their wake for the next Defender to clean up. The era of the billionaire is not a memorable one. The locked borders, 4 years out are a string. As for the billionaire era, for an unmemorable time, it did keep it going for a century or so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JALhazmat 1,615 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 Everyone’s favourite shit thrower in his latest missive suggesting that Pete and Blair might be off for a Swiss adventure.. could be fun eh;-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pusslicker 664 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 On 9/10/2021 at 8:25 PM, Forourselves said: Yes, the locked borders are a "string" attached to that money, by the way of not confirming what state those borders will be in in 2024. Yes, they'll all have strings attached, but it depends who can make the offer with the least strings attached, coupled with the offer that presents the best financial security for both the event and the team itself. Billionaires have come, and billionaires have gone, often leaving leaving a trail of destruction in their wake for the next Defender to clean up. The era of the billionaire is not a memorable one. What destruction has been left? You're implying Larry, but GD now with the 40 footer has adopted everything from Larry's Cups. There is going to be a lot more shit to clean up after the Kiwis lose than after Larry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pusslicker 664 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 On 9/10/2021 at 9:55 PM, Gissie said: The locked borders, 4 years out are a string. As for the billionaire era, for an unmemorable time, it did keep it going for a century or so. NZ is going to have to let the virus in at some point. Presumably when the vaccine rate is high enough? There will always be a variant ahead of any vaccine, but at some point NZ is going to have to eat it. I am assuming that is going to be well before 2024 though? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeedAClew 1,786 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, pusslicker said: NZ is going to have to let the virus in at some point. Presumably when the vaccine rate is high enough? There will always be a variant ahead of any vaccine, but at some point NZ is going to have to eat it. I am assuming that is going to be well before 2024 though? They promised the Kiwis that if they accepted all the restrictions they could save everyone. Switching that mindset to, well people gonna die but we have to live our lives is quite a mindshift. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pusslicker 664 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 29 minutes ago, NeedAClew said: They promised the Kiwis that if they accepted all the restrictions they could save everyone. Switching that mindset to, well people gonna die but we have to live our lives is quite a mindshift. When their economy takes a shit I think their mindshift will happen quite quickly. As in any population, greed seems to trump the death of your neighbor. It's going to be interesting. I guess they were hoping for the rest of the world to sort out covid and then open up? That obviously isn't going to happen. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 1 hour ago, pusslicker said: When their economy takes a shit I think their mindshift will happen quite quickly. As in any population, greed seems to trump the death of your neighbor. It's going to be interesting. I guess they were hoping for the rest of the world to sort out covid and then open up? That obviously isn't going to happen. As a previous PM pointed out the other day - hope is not a strategy. There really seems to be no plan, apart from asking people to get vaccinated. Along with plenty of kindness of course. However the idea that NZ will still be locked down tighter than North Korea in 2024 is one of the wilder claims ever made about the AC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeedAClew 1,786 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 "LOCKED DOWN" prob not. But "highly gated" might be nonzero probability, for nonresident and noncitizens. Bali touted its "opening" which includes 8 days of quarantine. Sounds tempting. Not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Horn Rock 1,714 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 They've dumped the covid elimination strategy. Delta got in - and there's no stopping it.... Vax to the max is their thinking now..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chobani Sailor 197 Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Horn Rock said: They've dumped the covid elimination strategy. Delta got in - and there's no stopping it.... Vax to the max is their thinking now..... it really is their only option at this point Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NeedAClew 1,786 Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 It always was everyone's only option. Some had a happy normal time more or less until it was time to vax. Maybe they dawdled a bit too much. Think what would have happened if the vaccines were not here before Delta. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 4 hours ago, Horn Rock said: thinking Not much of that going on... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
barfy 1,305 Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 5 hours ago, NeedAClew said: It always was everyone's only option. Some had a happy normal time more or less until it was time to vax. Maybe they dawdled a bit too much. Think what would have happened if the vaccines were not here before Delta. This is a true story I think. In a quickly developing science tale the numbers from nz detailing the efficacy of the Pfizer shot on icu, hospital, and infections are heartening. NZ probably has the best handle on actual infection numbers in the world due to low numbers and genome sequencing. I for one was pretty worried at the numbers coming out of other countries with the latest variant. Please join me in a sigh of relief, and let's hope that the good god chaos doesn't serve us another variant before the treatment regime really kicks in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salty Seacock 467 Posted October 24, 2021 Author Share Posted October 24, 2021 I drove past the ETNZ base yesterday. I looked at the achievement in a different way for the first time. This isn't a New Zealand team now for me. Looking offshore to host has put my mindset in a different place. Perhaps, it's the place it always was in reality, a business not a national team. The marketing worked on me because, as it turns out, this is just another venture to grab money and power with a thin veneer of sport over the top. I'm on the edge of whether or not to class Dalts in the same boat as RC and BB. It's close, he's on the gunnel. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
floater 696 Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 41 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said: I drove past the ETNZ base yesterday. I looked at the achievement in a different way for the first time. This isn't a New Zealand team now for me. Looking offshore to host has put my mindset in a different place. Perhaps, it's the place it always was in reality, a business not a national team. The marketing worked on me because, as it turns out, this is just another venture to grab money and power with a thin veneer of sport over the top. I'm on the edge of whether or not to class Dalts in the same boat as RC and BB. It's close, he's on the gunnel. I recall being surrounded by dozens of Kiwis watching race 9 in SF - Dicko (and I believe his family) were there too - sitting in front of the big screen just like the rest of us. The place was literally packed with New Zealanders - who were all relaxed and having a good time. And I had the same impression of Oracle you express here - meh, to Larry its just a business and because I admired TNZ I thought it would be fine whoever won the race. However, I surprised myself by shouting "shit!" and storming off when Aotearoa got the gun. I didn't think I cared, but I did, somehow. So, my thought is, if ETNZ (who have already fucked up their name, right?) manage to defend at home most folks will be with them. Its just human nature. But if they depart for overseas. Then yeah, fuck those guys! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sailbydate 3,612 Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 40 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said: I drove past the ETNZ base yesterday. I looked at the achievement in a different way for the first time. This isn't a New Zealand team now for me. Looking offshore to host has put my mindset in a different place. Perhaps, it's the place it always was in reality, a business not a national team. The marketing worked on me because, as it turns out, this is just another venture to grab money and power with a thin veneer of sport over the top. I'm on the edge of whether or not to class Dalts in the same boat as RC and BB. It's close, he's on the gunnel. The quantum world Vs general relativity. What a bitch life can be. ;-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pusslicker 664 Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 3 hours ago, Salty Seacock said: I drove past the ETNZ base yesterday. I looked at the achievement in a different way for the first time. This isn't a New Zealand team now for me. Looking offshore to host has put my mindset in a different place. Perhaps, it's the place it always was in reality, a business not a national team. The marketing worked on me because, as it turns out, this is just another venture to grab money and power with a thin veneer of sport over the top. I'm on the edge of whether or not to class Dalts in the same boat as RC and BB. It's close, he's on the gunnel. Or you could not vilify RC and BB. They went from the bush league to the big time and you guys should be proud of that. Instead you treat them like pariah's in their own country. GD isn't quite in their league and never will be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sailman 412 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 2 hours ago, pusslicker said: Or you could not vilify RC and BB. They went from the bush league to the big time and you guys should be proud of that. Instead you treat them like pariah's in their own country. GD isn't quite in their league and never will be. It would depend on your perspective. On one hand if you view the team as truly a national (or at least YC) team then they are pariahs. If on the other hand you view the team as a business then they were successful in their marketing and branding. I support the nations concept of the AC, the recent trend of the YC being a shell corporation for a Corporate entity to use the AC brand as a piggy bank is abhorrent to Schuyler’s Deed of Gift. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 6 hours ago, Salty Seacock said: I drove past the ETNZ base yesterday. I looked at the achievement in a different way for the first time. This isn't a New Zealand team now for me. Looking offshore to host has put my mindset in a different place. Perhaps, it's the place it always was in reality, a business not a national team. The marketing worked on me because, as it turns out, this is just another venture to grab money and power with a thin veneer of sport over the top. I'm on the edge of whether or not to class Dalts in the same boat as RC and BB. It's close, he's on the gunnel. I put Dalts as worse. RC, BB etc got a good offer and took it. Did it affect the team, of course. Dalts is selling the eveny to the highest bidder without a tear in his eye. He is most likely destroying the team forever. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SimonN 720 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 1 hour ago, sailman said: It would depend on your perspective. On one hand if you view the team as truly a national (or at least YC) team then they are pariahs. If on the other hand you view the team as a business then they were successful in their marketing and branding. I support the nations concept of the AC, the recent trend of the YC being a shell corporation for a Corporate entity to use the AC brand as a piggy bank is abhorrent to Schuyler’s Deed of Gift. You seem to view the past history of the AC through some fairly distorted, rose tinted glasses. While the NYYC might have had lofty ideals, much of the history of the AC has rich businessmen using the Cup to enhance their position and that of their company's. Consider, for example, Lipton's challenges. Those were about selling tea ands promoting his grocery stores, and elevating his position in society. He found a club who would support his challenge (Royal Yacht Squadron denied him entry until just before his death). Due to his challenges, he sold lots of tea in the USA and became friends with the King. That's just one example. And of course, during that era the sailors were rarely from the country the boat was representing. Schuyler would have laughed hard at the idea of placing nationality restrictions on the people who sailed the boats. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 2 hours ago, SimonN said: You seem to view the past history of the AC through some fairly distorted, rose tinted glasses. While the NYYC might have had lofty ideals, much of the history of the AC has rich businessmen using the Cup to enhance their position and that of their company's. Consider, for example, Lipton's challenges. Those were about selling tea ands promoting his grocery stores, and elevating his position in society. He found a club who would support his challenge (Royal Yacht Squadron denied him entry until just before his death). Due to his challenges, he sold lots of tea in the USA and became friends with the King. That's just one example. And of course, during that era the sailors were rarely from the country the boat was representing. Schuyler would have laughed hard at the idea of placing nationality restrictions on the people who sailed the boats. Australia II changed all that. Australia II was very much a National team and was perceived that way in Australia. Australia II ended the Lipton/ billionaire businessman era of the AC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JALhazmat 1,615 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 Ended the era of billionaires? Larry, Ernesto etc not billionaires ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
167149 289 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, JALhazmat said: Ended the era of billionaires? Larry, Ernesto etc not billionaires ? apparently not...... foreskin knows everything Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunseeker 458 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 1 hour ago, JALhazmat said: Ended the era of billionaires? Larry, Ernesto etc not billionaires ? He also forget about the fracker, Bertelli and Turnquist. Besides, Alan Bond may not have been a billionaire, but he most certainly used the AC to promote the Cup, and the sails were of Kiwi design. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sailman 412 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 5 hours ago, SimonN said: You seem to view the past history of the AC through some fairly distorted, rose tinted glasses. While the NYYC might have had lofty ideals, much of the history of the AC has rich businessmen using the Cup to enhance their position and that of their company's. Consider, for example, Lipton's challenges. Those were about selling tea ands promoting his grocery stores, and elevating his position in society. He found a club who would support his challenge (Royal Yacht Squadron denied him entry until just before his death). Due to his challenges, he sold lots of tea in the USA and became friends with the King. That's just one example. And of course, during that era the sailors were rarely from the country the boat was representing. Schuyler would have laughed hard at the idea of placing nationality restrictions on the people who sailed the boats. You can cherry pick your examples. To be more specific, I will reference the post WWII era. Pre WWII had some similarities to today but Lipton was promoting his business while campaigning. The success of Lipton tea was a side benefit not the purpose. Dalton and crew have reversed that philosophy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
barfy 1,305 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 15 minutes ago, sailman said: You can cherry pick your examples. To be more specific, I will reference the post WWII era. Pre WWII had some similarities to today but Lipton was promoting his business while campaigning. The success of Lipton tea was a side benefit not the purpose. Dalton and crew have reversed that philosophy. So ratty isn't green washing his business? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JALhazmat 1,615 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 27 minutes ago, barfy said: So ratty isn't green washing his business? The 4x4, the hygenics, the hydrogen production, chemical manufacturing, clothing, hotels, F1 team , football teams or the cyclists? ;-). It’s a multi layered question Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sailman 412 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 3 hours ago, barfy said: So ratty isn't green washing his business? If you are referencing the INEO Owner, he hasn't won the Cup. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fiji Bitter 1,976 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 Neither did Tommy... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 10 hours ago, sunseeker said: He also forget about the fracker, Bertelli and Turnquist. Besides, Alan Bond may not have been a billionaire, but he most certainly used the AC to promote the Cup, and the sails were of Kiwi design. The billionaires returned in the early 2000’s but the AC went through a period that was very much nationalistic. 87, 88, 92, and 95 were cycles where the teams were very much perceived as national teams. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JALhazmat 1,615 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 Which isn’t remotely what you had said.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
floater 696 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 10 hours ago, sailman said: You can cherry pick your examples. To be more specific, I will reference the post WWII era. Pre WWII had some similarities to today but Lipton was promoting his business while campaigning. The success of Lipton tea was a side benefit not the purpose. Dalton and crew have reversed that philosophy. and hopefully they don't damage the cup in the process. Although there was certainly much to admire about TNZ, ETNZ, not so much. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Liquid 648 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 13 hours ago, Forourselves said: Australia II ended the Lipton/ billionaire businessman era of the AC. You're funny!!! Yet Dalts is killing the cup because he's not a billionaire... They need to just hurry up and lose to a proper billionaire! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
porthos 390 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Forourselves said: The billionaires returned in the early 2000’s but the AC went through a period that was very much nationalistic. 87, 88, 92, and 95 were cycles where the teams were very much perceived as national teams. Bill Koch will be devastated to learn he isn't a billionaire. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 52 minutes ago, porthos said: Bill Koch will be devastated to learn he isn't a billionaire. We’ll that’s true. But the team was really seen as an American team. That team became the blue print for the Kiwi teams of 95 and 2000. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
porthos 390 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, Forourselves said: We’ll that’s true. But the team was really seen as an American team. That team became the blue print for the Kiwi teams of 95 and 2000. So by your logic (Ashby is a Kiwi) the Kiwi wins in 1995 and 2000 were really American wins. Got it. More seriously, Koch was an one-off odd duck who wanted to win the cup for his own personal reasons. I'm not sure why you would consider America3 an exemplary "American" team, particularly when then alternative was Stars & Stripes. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 23 minutes ago, porthos said: So by your logic (Ashby is a Kiwi) the Kiwi wins in 1995 and 2000 were really American wins. Got it. More seriously, Koch was an one-off odd duck who wanted to win the cup for his own personal reasons. I'm not sure why you would consider America3 an exemplary "American" team, particularly when then alternative was Stars & Stripes. Well that escalated quickly! No one mentioned Ashby! You need to get off the meth. Ashby is not an American. Team NZ isn’t American. If you’ve watched the Team NZ 95 documentary, Coutts based the 95 Kiwi team off Koch’s blueprint for his team. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
porthos 390 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 13 minutes ago, Forourselves said: Well that escalated quickly! No one mentioned Ashby! You need to get off the meth. Ashby is not an American. Team NZ isn’t American. If you’ve watched the Team NZ 95 documentary, Coutts based the 95 Kiwi team off Koch’s blueprint for his team. Lighten up, Francis. Your zeal causes you to miss the obvious (like the "More seriously" part of my post, which is a pretty good indication that what I just said wasn't serious). I don't think TNZ is American, and I was having fun -- admittedly at your expense -- in suggesting otherwise. My actual point was that there was nothing uniquely or even particularly "American" about Bill Koch's 1992 campaign. If anything, it was personal rather than collective -- he wanted to prove he could win the cup. That said, he ran a unique campaign and I can see why others might look at it. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
accnick 1,745 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 1 hour ago, porthos said: Lighten up, Francis. Your zeal causes you to miss the obvious (like the "More seriously" part of my post, which is a pretty good indication that what I just said wasn't serious). I don't think TNZ is American, and I was having fun -- admittedly at your expense -- in suggesting otherwise. My actual point was that there was nothing uniquely or even particularly "American" about Bill Koch's 1992 campaign. If anything, it was personal rather than collective -- he wanted to prove he could win the cup. That said, he ran a unique campaign and I can see why others might look at it. In 1992, Koch built four first-generation boats that were wildly different from each other. He also threw massive amounts of money into sail development. This was essentially the same approach that Gardini took with Il Moro, which built five boats to Koch's four. There may have been internal management characteristics in the A3 syndicate that served as a model for 1995, but it isn't perfectly clear what those were. The A3 syndicate certainly had several top helmsmen to choose from, and winnowed their boats down to the best all-around defender. Between them, Gardini and Koch set a new standard for how to spend money, by any metric. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SimonN 720 Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 20 hours ago, sailman said: You can cherry pick your examples. To be more specific, I will reference the post WWII era. Pre WWII had some similarities to today but Lipton was promoting his business while campaigning. The success of Lipton tea was a side benefit not the purpose. Dalton and crew have reversed that philosophy. Now who is cherry picking. You were the one who raised Schuyler. He died nearly 50 years before WWII. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sailman 412 Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 2 hours ago, SimonN said: Now who is cherry picking. You were the one who raised Schuyler. He died nearly 50 years before WWII. He wrote the Deed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 16 hours ago, Forourselves said: The billionaires returned in the early 2000’s but the AC went through a period that was very much nationalistic. 87, 88, 92, and 95 were cycles where the teams were very much perceived as national teams. But surely you would include the latest cycles, after all ETNZ is such a national team how could you leave them out... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChairborneRanger 81 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 Great new hire... https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/126809582/americas-cup-team-nz-sign-crack-australian-sailor-nathan-outteridge 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 I said it at the beginning of the cycle. Outteridge lives in Auckland. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fiji Bitter 1,976 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 43 minutes ago, ChairborneRanger said: Great new hire... https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/126809582/americas-cup-team-nz-sign-crack-australian-sailor-nathan-outteridge Great news indeed, one of the nicest guys in the sport too. Been wondering if he would join TNZ, but was not sure in what role. The article mentions dual helmsmen, that could be it. They must be paying him peanuts though, as the jealous monkey brigade here seems to think TNZ is broke broke... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said: Great news indeed, one of the nicest guys in the sport too. Been wondering if he would join TNZ, but was not sure in what role. The article mentions dual helmsmen, that could be it. They must be paying him peanuts though, as the jealous monkey brigade here seems to think TNZ is broke broke... Got nothing to do with the team being broke, if he wants to be involved he has zero choice. Accept whatever peanuts the team offer or get back in the commentary box. Oh wait, he could sail for one of the many emerging nation teams that are sprouting up all over the world. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 Just now, Gissie said: Got nothing to do with the team being broke, if he wants to be involved he has zero choice. Accept whatever peanuts the team offer or get back in the commentary box. Oh wait, he could sail for one of the many emerging nation teams that are sprouting up all over the world. Let’s be honest, if you had a choice between teams that got their butts kicked, and the current 2 time back to back champions, any champion of the sport would choose Team NZ. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gissie 1,758 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, ChairborneRanger said: Great new hire... https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/126809582/americas-cup-team-nz-sign-crack-australian-sailor-nathan-outteridge Also interesting that the team has been trying to get B&T signed up but they are not playing ball. It gives the impression that the venue choice is a big thing for them. Plus some ocean climate change thing they are passionate about. Is Nat there because the team thinks the dynamic duo aren't coming back? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
33jesus 50 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 Also worth noting: NO has been more successful than P&B in SailGP. Could be something there? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 Probably likely that Glenn Ashby has called it a day in regards to AC duties and that’s left a space open for Outteridge to fit into the sailing team. Burling and Outteridge know each other inside out. Should make a great leadership team. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 18 minutes ago, 33jesus said: Also worth noting: NO has been more successful than P&B in SailGP. Could be something there? If success in SailGP had anything to do with it, surely they’d sign Slingsby instead of Outteridge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forourselves 1,691 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 23 minutes ago, Gissie said: Also interesting that the team has been trying to get B&T signed up but they are not playing ball. It gives the impression that the venue choice is a big thing for them. Plus some ocean climate change thing they are passionate about. Is Nat there because the team thinks the dynamic duo aren't coming back? Probably because Ashby has decided to call time on AC duties. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sea Breeze 74 712 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, ChairborneRanger said: Great new hire... https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/126809582/americas-cup-team-nz-sign-crack-australian-sailor-nathan-outteridge An excellent hire, Nathan is a nice guy and easily in the top few helms at this level. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sea Breeze 74 712 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 9 minutes ago, Forourselves said: If success in SailGP had anything to do with it, surely they’d sign Slingsby instead of Outteridge Outteridge has a Kiwi wife, a home in Auckland and presumably residency. With the nationality rules he's a no-brainer. But I see what you're getting at SailGP success doesn't directly translate to the AC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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