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7 hours ago, weta27 said:

There seemed to be enough breeze, but for whatever reason they sailed in displacement mode all the way past us out into the Channel

Very interesting stuff, not just the details but how its sailing, was it quick relative to other boats or sticky?

 

Quote

I'm going to assume that by race day there'll be a fairing over these track pits

I think not allowed.

 

Quite a nice little gap-filler for the mast-base though.

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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

After many hours of consideration, a lot of in-depth research on the SA technical threads, extensive computational modelling and a few quick & dirty minutes in Photoshop, I have produced this anal

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37 minutes ago, hoom said:

was it quick relative to other boats or sticky?

Hard to say, it seems to move and accelerate very easily in displacement mode but this morning they didn't seem to be pushing at all. Like I say, there looked to be sufficient breeze to foil but they were nowhere near that. 

Maybe they were not wanting to foil so close to shore (something new?) or maybe they needed to test something first. In which case I don't know why they put the sails up over by Orakei, and didn't just tow all the way out?

Or maybe the wind wasn't at the right angle to get up in the direction they needed to go ... I dunno.

PJB where are you??

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42 minutes ago, hoom said:
Quote

I'm going to assume that by race day there'll be a fairing over these track pits

I think not allowed.

INEOS seem to have fairings over their set-up - there were some decent pics in the old thread but you can see some detail (or lack of) in the 'sights and sounds' video.

I'd be surprised if fairings were prohibited - given the level of aero details across the rest of the design...

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1 hour ago, NZK said:

I'd be surprised if fairings were prohibited

I thought someone had quoted the rule back when the launches were happening but I had a quick read through the places I thought it might be & couldn't find anything specific banning fairings over control stuff like that.

Covering to 'tidy sheets' is an expressly allowed form of cover which might allow such.

 

Certainly the slots look like they're setup for a semi-rigid cover/fairing, including rebated lip it could be bonded to & the sort of thing can be seen in the after ends of the cockpit side where I believe we can see a cover over runner rams.

 

2 hours ago, weta27 said:

Maybe they were not wanting to foil so close to shore (something new?) or maybe they needed to test something first.

I was thinking they do need some practice of displacement mode sailing particularly for pre-start/pinching round a mark etc.

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9 minutes ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

I guess at the bottom it will be wider... With that Elephants trunk boom they seem to be running. My guess is that the leaches will touch going up the sail.

The few early shots from the stern showed a constant gap; there was once a spacer above the ram. The tension must be huge. And I wondered at what they were doing with the low pressure that must exist there.

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13 hours ago, weta27 said:

 

double-skin.jpg

Which areas of the mast and sails are part of the one design rule?

I think I read earlier that the mast was one design,  but could be built by different suppliers.

Is the leech control ram part of the one design part of the class rule?

 

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17 hours ago, weta27 said:

Not sure, looks different to me but maybe we just haven't seen it close-up before??

Edit: None of my earlier photos shows anything like this.

foil-closeup.jpg

So no sign of a bulb then....:rolleyes:

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Little late on this but...Did the field let Burling and Tuke through intentionally in the medal race?  Seems they picked their way through the fleet with particular ease (although that is their MO) to close the gap after that dunking. Did they get some help from their friends?  I certainly pulled that kinda favoritism when poorly racing dinghies in my youth.  Also, is it ok to match race someone to the back of the fleet these days?  Stunning performance by those two, I can’t wait to see more.

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23 minutes ago, nutty said:

Little late on this but...Did the field let Burling and Tuke through intentionally in the medal race?  Seems they picked their way through the fleet with particular ease (although that is their MO) to close the gap after that dunking. Did they get some help from their friends?  I certainly pulled that kinda favoritism when poorly racing dinghies in my youth.  Also, is it ok to match race someone to the back of the fleet these days?  Stunning performance by those two, I can’t wait to see more.

Would sincerely doubt it - with Olympic selection still on the line for almost every team out there. This would include the other kiwi teams who I suspect would love to have beaten Pete and Blair to open the door for them to go to Tokyo instead.  Every team there would have been fighting hard for every point. 

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1 hour ago, nutty said:

Little late on this but...Did the field let Burling and Tuke through intentionally in the medal race?  Seems they picked their way through the fleet with particular ease (although that is their MO) to close the gap after that dunking. Did they get some help from their friends?  I certainly pulled that kinda favoritism when poorly racing dinghies in my youth.  Also, is it ok to match race someone to the back of the fleet these days?  Stunning performance by those two, I can’t wait to see more.

Yip. Absolutely. The whole fucking thing is corrupt. That’s how they’ve won five worlds and every major regatta between the last two Olympics. 
 

What a stupid thing to say. Piss off. 

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42 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Yip. Absolutely. The whole fucking thing is corrupt. That’s how they’ve won five worlds and every major regatta between the last two Olympics. 
 

What a stupid thing to say. Piss off. 

Jimmy let them round OTUSA too ;-)

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20 hours ago, weta27 said:

 

double-skin.jpg

The hydraulic drum looks to be both the mainsheet and leech tension in one, presumably attached to the traveller at the base at the same point as the second outhauls for the skirt, very interesting system.

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18 minutes ago, Boybland said:

The hydraulic drum looks to be both the mainsheet and leech tension in one, presumably attached to the traveller at the base at the same point as the second outhauls for the skirt, very interesting system.

I think it can do 3 actions:

- mainsheet position on a traveller

- leech tension thanks to the end of the boom sliding up or down on the rod, which a teflon guide to help sliding

- foot tension thanks to the lines at the bottom

But I may be wrong...

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4 hours ago, nutty said:

Little late on this but...Did the field let Burling and Tuke through intentionally in the medal race?  Seems they picked their way through the fleet with particular ease (although that is their MO) to close the gap after that dunking. Did they get some help from their friends?  I certainly pulled that kinda favoritism when poorly racing dinghies in my youth.  Also, is it ok to match race someone to the back of the fleet these days?  Stunning performance by those two, I can’t wait to see more.

What a ridiculous comment to make.  These guys are all professional world class sailers, no quarter given.  Had a german or NZ team dropped a place to make a difference you could question but it was just high class stuff.  Although he fell off, Burlings recovery was just exceptional.  

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985902691_Screenshot2019-12-11at9_29_56.thumb.png.2f2da76ff4721ea8bfc5be49de244851.png

This is interesting, never noticed a slot on the foils.

Only present on certain flap angles & pretty narrow as with the slightly different camera angle on the upper part it is not visible.

 

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On 12/10/2019 at 9:07 AM, weta27 said:

First thing I notice is a change in foil profile (starboard foil), just either side of, and behind where it meets the arm.

See comparison - 1. is the "old" stbd foil, and 2. & 3. are today's stbd foil:

foil-comparison.jpg

Some kind of subtle gating at the inner end of the flaps.  Inerestingly, it's nearly invisible fully front on, so it's almost a wide slot in the top rear of the foil.  I guess it must be doing something to control the interference off the arm somehow.

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6 hours ago, weta27 said:

I didn't have one full-height, but I this gives a reasonable look at it (click for full size)

leech.jpg

I'm not seeing anything but perhaps exhaust telltails between skins, some red ones seem to come from the inside. How old is the shot @weta27 ? Thanks!!

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11 hours ago, winchfodder said:

Which areas of the mast and sails are part of the one design rule?

The mast.

Quote

I think I read earlier that the mast was one design,  but could be built by different suppliers.

Yes.

Quote

Is the leech control ram part of the one design part of the class rule?

No. The lower 1.5 metre (mast lower zone) is pretty much open slather, controlled only by area of entire main and foot girth. See Fig. 20.3 in the rule.

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6 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I think it can do 3 actions:

- mainsheet position on a traveller

- leech tension thanks to the end of the boom sliding up or down on the rod, which a teflon guide to help sliding

- foot tension thanks to the lines at the bottom

But I may be wrong...

To my eye... Leech tension is via the mainsheet, the "rod" looks like a hydraulic ram for fine tune... Not sure the white sleeve serves any purpose other than to protect the ram from the boom

The two lines from the sail clews to the lower part of the ram seem to be taking all the load! 

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7 hours ago, Boybland said:

985902691_Screenshot2019-12-11at9_29_56.thumb.png.2f2da76ff4721ea8bfc5be49de244851.pngL

This is interesting, never noticed a slot on the foils.

Only present on certain flap angles & pretty narrow as with the slightly different camera angle on the upper part it is not visible.

 

Didn’t somebody say they had a continuous upper foil/flap surface, like a Finn Moth or something? So, no slot

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15 hours ago, weta27 said:

I didn't have one full-height, but I this gives a reasonable look at it (click for full size)

leech.jpg

Could someone give me some clarification?

From this pic (smashing it as usual Weta ;)) it looks like there is quite a large gap between the leaches, starting at the clews (where the hydraulic ram thingee sit between the mainsails) and going up to well above the spreaders.    

Is this right?

Or is this "black space/lines" that you can see in the pic a trick of the eye and actually the back side of the windward mainsail, exposed by the leeward mainsail carrying more camber than the windward one, and probably mast rotation too, and that the leaches are actually touching?       

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From my reading of the rules there is no way of holding the leaches tightly together while allowing a relative movement fore and aft with each other.

see rule 20.23

I would suggest it's both a gap and the exposed inside of the windward skin not an either or situation

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4 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Appreciate the footage, but I just wish people would frame well and then sit on the shot - no need to do anything else, just sit patiently on the shot.

And maybe hold on until the boat initiates and finishes a maneuver (gybe or tack)?

And while we're at it, instead of saying they're motoring, how about mentioning what speed you're doing trying to keep up?

 

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16 hours ago, Boybland said:

The hydraulic drum looks to be both the mainsheet and leech tension in one, presumably attached to the traveller at the base at the same point as the second outhauls for the skirt, very interesting system.

Spent a lot of time looking at this one and agree. Pretty sure the delrin bearing is just to keep the ram inline with the leech of the sail(s) and keep the load on the ram being solely leech loads. The outhauls are quite neat as well, and then there's the extra foot outhauls as well. Quite neat.  Expect the soft shackle guys in gear anarchy are currently have a lab-day about the soft shackle for parking the boom on the back!

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Morning, Weta and others with a camera, opportunity and the inclination. 

Please all refer to operational instructions in post #240 above, in case Te Aihe should venture forth. Thank you. 

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10 hours ago, The Dannevegus Express said:

Or is this "black space/lines" that you can see in the pic a trick of the eye and actually the back side of the windward mainsail, exposed by the leeward mainsail carrying more camber than the windward one, and probably mast rotation too, and that the leaches are actually touching?      

Definitely a gap all the way up. You can see the telltales coming out of the space between at regular intervals

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From my small Frog foiler experience with D mast and double luff main there has to be roughly  15-20mm movement between the two leeches, this depending on the amount of D mast rotation, also wind strength .... so what we see with Aihe's double leech may appear to be a gap but is actually the leeward main being set/moved forward of the windward?

Second thoughts; I'm wrong in the case of the 75, there is a gap between leeches. But on Frog the two sails rub together - and never open out like a gull wing during gybes.

 

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7 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

And maybe hold on until the boat initiates and finishes a maneuver (gybe or tack)?

And while we're at it, instead of saying they're motoring, how about mentioning what speed you're doing trying to keep up?

 

The Instagram Post mentions they were doing 28 knots in the boat the film was taken from. Light winds too (big headsail on), assuming this was taken yesterday (11 Dec) it was a pretty calm day here in Auckland.

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14 hours ago, hoom said:

You can see it in this pic from the launch

qz397Mm.jpg

I dunno whats going on in that pic, I'm not convinced its a gap but its certainly possible that the fairing thing at launch didn't work out

To my very untrained eye - those look like wing flaps

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Do the foil flaps have to move all in one piece? If not I think you are right. Get a little piecewisectwist on that flap...?

3 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

To my very untrained eye - those look like wing flaps

 

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On 12/10/2019 at 1:57 PM, weta27 said:

Not sure, looks different to me but maybe we just haven't seen it close-up before??

Edit: None of my earlier photos shows anything like this.

foil-closeup.jpg

the flaps are in the 'up position'

they are referred to as Flaps but unlike aircraft flaps that only go down, they should be referred to as elevators as they are pitch control and can go up and down

in looking at the rules there is no restriction in the movement or how they are controlled, (only on the structure build being symmetric)

there is nothing stopping them in the rules to have one side of flap/elevator going up and the other going down (or twisting the flap if the team sees fit)

ETNZ might have them in this position for a variety of reasons

(all assumptions)

1: helps with windage or righting moment (it is a wing after all)

2: just about to lower the foil and having them in the position would help pull it down through the water

3: they forgot to set them back to zero before pesky photographers took a picture from that angle

funny enough they are testing and evaluating ... just like any good cup team should do

been brought up here before muppets took the thread to Hugo boss

 

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In the latest pic from Weta, there looks to be little skegs added to the foil, presumably to create some sort of an end-plate effect at the inboard end of the elevators/flaps. These are not present on the launch pic.

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4 hours ago, weta27 said:

Definitely a gap all the way up. You can see the telltales coming out of the space between at regular intervals

Thanks Weta...

Hmmmm, although absolutely no expert, do you think this this gap something they are trying to create?

I would assume the windward main under load would twist off and rest on the leeward one and therefore naturally closing the gap?

This I am guessing is Groucho says happens on his Frog Foiler

If they are actually creating this gap, I now ask:-

1. What funky go fast magic are they trying to create by doing this???     I would have thought this would just create a shitload of drag? 

2. How the heck are they actual doing/controlling this???     Is this started with the larger gap around the boom, and adjusted with the mainsheet loads?

 

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if you read the comments there is one that sounds like it was by the driver of the boat ( her partner )

stating he was doing 28 knts

looking at it

it would seem they were also being heavily gunned down at that speed

 

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8 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Morning, Weta and others with a camera, opportunity and the inclination. 

Please all refer to operational instructions in post #240 above, in case Te Aihe should venture forth. Thank you. 

Fair 'nuff, except I believe Weta does a pretty darn good job in this regard.  And of course some of his footage is shot from shoreside vantage points.

The footage in #232 appears to be at the limit of the camera's range, or user's control.  Plus shot from bumpy small boat at speed. 

Doing this this is a real art, requiring discipline, anticipation and muscle control. 

Best shooter I've ever ridden with is former 12-metre crew Dick Enersen, six-footer with  thighs like tree trunks. First made his name as a shooter and producer back in the '70s. Would stand in a small boat at speed in a seaway, full-size video cam balanced on his shoulder for hours on end, and deliver footage virtually as steady and shake-free as that from a tripod ashore.

 

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13 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

Fair 'nuff, except I believe Weta does a pretty darn good job in this regard.  And of course some of his footage is shot from shoreside vantage points.

The footage in #232 appears to be at the limit of the camera's range, or user's control.  Plus shot from bumpy small boat at speed. 

Doing this this is a real art, requiring discipline, anticipation and muscle control. 

Best shooter I've ever ridden with is former 12-metre crew Dick Enersen, six-footer with  thighs like tree trunks. First made his name as a shooter and producer back in the '70s. Would stand in a small boat at speed in a seaway, full-size video cam balanced on his shoulder for hours on end, and deliver footage virtually as steady and shake-free as that from a tripod ashore.

 

Just pullen Weta's leg, KiwiJ. He knows that too. In fact, I'll take this opportunity to thank him again for all the great work he's doing - thanks, Weta and others for the fantastic contribution to this forum.

It's all good. Now, polish up those filters, get those lease caps back on and batteries fully charged and get out there again tomorrow! ;-)

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15 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

Doing this this is a real art, requiring discipline, anticipation and muscle control. 

Not anymore. Cheap hand–held stabilisers for phones and cameras are available for under $100, professional ones under $1,000. You can even program them so that when you move the camera around, the subject stays in the centre of the frame.

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14 minutes ago, RobG said:

Not anymore. Cheap hand–held stabilisers for phones and cameras are available for under $100, professional ones under $1,000. You can even program them so that when you move the camera around, the subject stays in the centre of the frame.

Thanks.  Packed away my Canon gear. Not current and besides can't keep up with the technology torrent.

Looking forward to stabiliser adoption by contributors here.

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On 12/11/2019 at 3:34 AM, RobG said:

The mast.

Yes.

No. The lower 1.5 metre (mast lower zone) is pretty much open slather, controlled only by area of entire main and foot girth. See Fig. 20.3 in the rule.

Thank you for the clarification. The NZ hydraulic twin leech line and traveller control looks pretty clever. It will be interesting to see the solutions used by the other teams. 

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2 minutes ago, Indio said:

Youth America's Cup Announced

A reinvigorated Youth America’s Cup regatta is announced today which will be raced in a brand new class of foiling mono-hull, the AC9F, in 2020 and 2021.

Anyone who bitched about trickle down or providing a pathway for young sailors, feel free to apologise now. 

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50 minutes ago, Indio said:

Youth America's Cup Announced

A reinvigorated Youth America’s Cup regatta is announced today which will be raced in a brand new class of foiling mono-hull, the AC9F, in 2020 and 2021.

Well there goes the slander that foiling monohulls like the AC57 are one-trick ponies!

This newcomer for  the up-and-comers will do much to solidify support for monofoilers. And especially given the China connection.

Is there a strong whiff of incest here, in that RNZYS Commodore and owner of Yachting Developments Ian Cook has a dual role, with his company building the boats and  his club promoting and organizing the racing?

Seems a bit tricky but I for one hope they avoid the pitfalls and pull it

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26 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

Well there goes the slander that foiling monohulls like the AC57 are one-trick ponies!

This newcomer for  the up-and-comers will do much to solidify support for monofoilers. And especially given the China connection.

Is there a strong whiff of incest here, in that RNZYS Commodore and owner of Yachting Developments Ian Cook has a dual role, with his company building the boats and  his club promoting and organizing the racing?

Seems a bit tricky but I for one hope they avoid the pitfalls and pull it off.

I like the mixed gender requirement, and the opportunity for more than one team from each country. This has great potential..

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19 minutes ago, Indio said:

I like the mixed gender requirement, and the opportunity for more than one team from each country. This has great potential..

Yes, lots of potential and a reasonable timeline to pull it off.

Please note we now have a new Topic - Youth America's Cup -  about this initiative, thanks to shanghaisailor.  I've copied my original post there. See you over there.

Edited by KiwiJoker
Update - Topic move
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On 12/7/2019 at 8:32 PM, Priscilla said:

Built himself a brutalist fortress to protect his ill gotten gains in Oneroa.

Murray Jones is the only waka  jumper in the TNZ compound.

FBE9CD5A-5DF9-44AC-910C-600369EA25BD.thumb.jpeg.a3c9e5e551b48464b53ccc76820d4562.jpeg

 

Murray is the one with the higher level of morality than the others. He left OR after San Fran because he couldn't stand what he saw went on.

Little wonder he's the only one let back in the door at ETNZ...

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1 hour ago, weta27 said:

Maybe I need to send them an invoice ...??!

Better get your Wetapix copyright marks on those pics, mate. The world is watching.

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7 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

To my very untrained eye - those look like wing flaps

Yes but there is a flexible cover over the hinge which you can see there -> no gap if its still in same configuration.

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This crop from another Weta37 pic proves its not a gap.

rWj7lk0.jpg

Its white undercoat showing through after wet & dry.

You can also see the flexible hinge cover is still present, its particularly along the forward edge of the cover they've been active with the sandpaper

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22 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Appreciate the footage, but I just wish people would frame well and then sit on the shot - no need to do anything else, just sit patiently on the shot.

Great advice, people get carried away during the excitement of the moment, but like good couch potatoes we thank them for their work..!

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19 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Interesting, in this vid the boat flies higher than we have seen before and looks a bit like the brits.

This is Downwind mode - footage and videos suggest that they fly a little higher, same for Ineos.

Upwind, in full power and flat water is where they fly low and or nose down to lower foil immersion and max out the RM. Rough sea state or unstable wind is where they give away low mode to minimise touches.

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1 hour ago, Boink said:

This is Downwind mode - footage and videos suggest that they fly a little higher, same for Ineos.

Upwind, in full power and flat water is where they fly low and or nose down to lower foil immersion and max out the RM. Rough sea state or unstable wind is where they give away low mode to minimise touches.

Yes, we agree on that, it could be a possibility, they could also fly on a higher mode now in order to limit the hydro drag with foils closer to the surface thanks to a better control system, or they may try new foils with anhedral design and smaller span allowing to foil higher.

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30 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yes, we agree on that, it could be a possibility, they could also fly on a higher mode now in order to limit the hydro drag with foils closer to the surface thanks to a better control system, or they may try new foils with anhedral design and smaller span allowing to foil higher.

They already have anhedral on the Port foil, whilst Starboard is classic T. 

Waiting for analysis by someone to compare T which would have longer foil arm extension as a place to pack more ballast versus anhedral where longer span on the diagonal route allows more ballast to be carried within the wing span, but attaching to a shorter foil arm - and which solution creates the greatest RM. 

Then need to compare immersion and foil attitude, of the two types of architecture, to stay within whatever mode they are chasing. 

Still think asymmetric foil control of a symmetrical  layout had advantages, particularly for anhedral package, over a complete symmetrical system, but unclear whether this is permitted.

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12 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

Well there goes the slander that foiling monohulls like the AC57 are one-trick ponies!

This newcomer for  the up-and-comers will do much to solidify support for monofoilers. And especially given the China connection.

Is there a strong whiff of incest here, in that RNZYS Commodore and owner of Yachting Developments Ian Cook has a dual role, with his company building the boats and  his club promoting and organizing the racing?

Seems a bit tricky but I for one hope they avoid the pitfalls and pull it

Have you even seen the AC9F design?  It is nothing like the AC75’s.  

It is more like what everyone thought the “foiling monohull” should be like.  It has a retractable keel, the foils are raised and lowered like the AC50/F50 and the foils even have a bulb!  It is more a blend between the AC50 and the IMOAC’s like Hugo Boss.   And it is designed with ETNZ.
 

image.jpeg

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17 hours ago, Lickindip said:

the flaps are in the 'up position'

they are referred to as Flaps but unlike aircraft flaps that only go down, they should be referred to as elevators as they are pitch control and can go up and down

in looking at the rules there is no restriction in the movement or how they are controlled, (only on the structure build being symmetric)

there is nothing stopping them in the rules to have one side of flap/elevator going up and the other going down (or twisting the flap if the team sees fit)

ETNZ might have them in this position for a variety of reasons

(all assumptions)

1: helps with windage or righting moment (it is a wing after all)

2: just about to lower the foil and having them in the position would help pull it down through the water

3: they forgot to set them back to zero before pesky photographers took a picture from that angle

funny enough they are testing and evaluating ... just like any good cup team should do

been brought up here before muppets took the thread to Hugo boss

 

Flaperons to be exact.

Love this gals voice,

 

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9 hours ago, Boink said:

They already have anhedral on the Port foil, whilst Starboard is classic T. 

Waiting for analysis by someone to compare T which would have longer foil arm extension as a place to pack more ballast versus anhedral where longer span on the diagonal route allows more ballast to be carried within the wing span, but attaching to a shorter foil arm - and which solution creates the greatest RM. 

Then need to compare immersion and foil attitude, of the two types of architecture, to stay within whatever mode they are chasing. 

Still think asymmetric foil control of a symmetrical  layout had advantages, particularly for anhedral package, over a complete symmetrical system, but unclear whether this is permitted.

Yes, a anhedral foil with longer diagonal may be heavier and provide more RM than a wide T one, but it depends on the weight they put in the vertical strut which is longer with the T.

I think the RM is a secondary factor vs the drag from lift and the drag from friction.

The RM will be improved, IMO, by flying lower at the cost of more drag unless they use smaller anhedral foils with shorter struts.

For exemple the TNZ starboard foil seems at the limit of the authorized span, which means about 4 m, therefore with a long strut. It is ideal for lift in light wind but draggy at high speed mainly when they fly low. On the other hand more strut in the water allows to point higher, good for upwind.

Their port anhedral foil probably has a smaller horizontal span, more surface, less strut in the water as they can fly higher. It's probably better for downwind.

Computers must be crunching the numbers, B2 boats will tell us more about the best combinations they found.

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