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"Blake and his team were delighted with there new boat. As soon as we started sailing against NZL-20 we thought ah ha. We actually do have a chance but we don't know how the rest of the world's gone so. We just won't say anything, We will take the oppisite mode,

Maybe our first boat isn't as quick as it should be...

"But the reality was that black magic was very fast and Blake had good news for his sponsers."
 

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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

They towed out around 11am and the breeze was light and puffy to start with. Foiled down the Channel and headed out to the Bays. The breeze started to build around midday and they got some long runs i

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14 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

INEOS did 50 knots on the first day. 

Really? That's amazing. Can you substantiate this statement other than with lies?

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9 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

Really? That's amazing.

First I've heard of this. Not that I don't think these boats aren't capable of it given enough wind, but to do it on your first day sailing when you're still checking things out - loads etc - sounds a bit fishy.

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14 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

First I've heard of this. Not that I don't think these boats aren't capable of it given enough wind, but to do it on your first day sailing when you're still checking things out - loads etc - sounds a bit fishy.

It's close to fishy. In fact it's just around the corner. Its shit.

Like much of the foaming dribble-dicks here, this creature's statement is designed for reaction and fame regardless of any erosion of respect be it self or others. Trolling is not just an antagonistic pastime for this twisted delusionist but rather a right of passage and ironically, it is a passage that has been used to pass the words of inflammatory nonsense. The anus passage. For, the creatures words are but a sloppy turd of a statement. 

Shit delivered from just around the corner of a fishy cunt.

 

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41 minutes ago, NZL4EVER said:

"Blake and his team were delighted with there new boat. As soon as we started sailing against NZL-20 we thought ah ha. We actually do have a chance but we don't know how the rest of the world's gone so. We just won't say anything, We will take the oppisite mode,

Maybe our first boat isn't as quick as it should be...

"But the reality was that black magic was very fast and Blake had good news for his sponsers."
 

NZL32?

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2 hours ago, Salty Seacock said:

It's close to fishy. In fact it's just around the corner. Its shit.

Like much of the foaming dribble-dicks here, this creature's statement is designed for reaction and fame regardless of any erosion of respect be it self or others. Trolling is not just an antagonistic pastime for this twisted delusionist but rather a right of passage and ironically, it is a passage that has been used to pass the words of inflammatory nonsense. The anus passage. For, the creatures words are but a sloppy turd of a statement. 

Shit delivered from just around the corner of a fishy cunt.

 

pot-and-kettle-350x166_original.jpg.d086a4c7a9c3eda36dcb7ad7538744df.jpg

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13 hours ago, weta27 said:

They also put out a video of a foiling tack and because they were so excited, never produced one again. 

The boat was packed up after two weeks, so considering the very short amount of time it was on the water I don't think you can poke them for not putting out more tacks... In the same time the kiwi's barely got their mainsail up and we didn't see tacks for months! And that was with systems for control surfaces that were by comparison less developed than INEOS and yet ETNZ still had a load of snags in their first couple of weeks. I think the 49er worlds updates have brought ETNZ closer to INEOS in terms of complexity of sail control (obvious complex doesn't always mean fast). 

Plus the issue with manoeuvres isn't the boat, it's the shitty beta code from ETNZ for running the foil arm hydraulics, allowing only very limited foil drops and raises before hardware needs switching. The kiwi's are flying around all day for weeks doing multiple manoeuvres whilst 'testing' another update... which then only arrives to INEOS as they're packing up to move base. Same story for AM too. Luna Rossa off the water for more significant problems I suspect.

It'll be interesting to see INEOS with new code Sardinia. I wonder if they'll be out before Christmas, or if they're having a break at all? 

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1 hour ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Plus the issue with manoeuvres isn't the boat, it's the shitty beta code from ETNZ for running the foil arm hydraulics, allowing only very limited foil drops and raises before hardware needs switching. The kiwi's are flying around all day for weeks doing multiple manoeuvres whilst 'testing' another update... which then only arrives to INEOS as they're packing up to move base. Same story for AM too. Luna Rossa off the water for more significant problems I suspect.

Cool story bro

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It's a valid response to Wetas point that despite high speed claims INEOS have limited publicly record manoeuvres... I'm just adding some balance to the discussion. We're here to discuss AC boats are we not?

Unlike your reply... at least make an effort. Recycling a decade old meme in lieu of any actual counter argument or humour is pretty weak. Just another post to scroll past adding nothing. 

Save the space and down vote if it irks you so much.  

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2 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

allowing only very limited foil drops and raises before hardware needs switching

So you are saying that because of the code that runs the FCS after a limited number of arm movements there is a need to replace some kind of hardware? Obviously you have some good Intel, what kind of hardware gets fried by the code that runs it?

And this is the reason that the challs not only don't post vids of manoeuvres,but they are incapable of performing them at this time?

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That's where my knowledge runs short. I think it's a pump / valve. But it wasn't clear if it was the whole part or a item within the part. It also wasn't clear whether the parts were failing completely, or just surpassing the warranted loads and therefore needed replacing / inspection. 

I don't think that's anything that hasn't been said in the foils thread though.

It doesn't stop them doing manoeuvres, is just stops them doing them back to back and obviously costs a huge amount of time on the water with support crew getting on and off. 

ENTZ recognised the problem too and started working on updated code right away. The accusation is that ENTZ have held on doing 'beta testing' of that new code for longer than the other teams were happy with. And really, as a one design supplied part the other teams could have been privy to it's workings, like when they were brought on board with the structural issues with the foil arm.

The new code turned up the day INEOS packed up. Perhaps a coincidence rather than malice from ETNZ.  But either way, when comparing the frequency of manoeuvres between the teams we'll have a better like for like comparison once AM and INEOS are on the new code. 

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13 hours ago, Boink said:

TC, you backed yourself into a corner trying to claim that Foil Assist Dogzilla was in someway equivalent to Full Foiling Cats, which they do not.

You proceeded into some random logic argument about what V stood for in VPLP.

You were held to account on both these points of view.

You then tried to diminish the creation of Full flying foiling cats by ETNZ in the face of a rule that actively attempted to prevent full foiling, through various instruments of the rule including lack of control surfaces AND restricted foil volume (whose inclusion was the rule creators direct attempt to prevent foils of large enough size to achieve flight in the performance window anticipated) - and yet despite all of this the Kiwi's found a solution that did actually fly.

The consternation that this created amongst the other teams led to Artemis, as you correctly said, protesting the Kiwi's, but with the (implied) support of Oracle - both teams who had completely missed the work around opportunity. 

The SL cat platform was used by the team, but the the foils that they flew and tested were strictly in house team generated, not M&M. These were the smart parts. Remind yourself how the AC45 were conceived as the intro series to the big boats - they were fully archemedian - and when finally converted to full flying were unstable and unsuitable. Hence the development of Turbo 45's - a very different animal - only sharing their overall length by way of continuum.

At no point can you demonstrate how either AC series boats or AC72's were ever meant to be anything other than archemedian.

But, to then claim by some twisted logic, that the rule creator is the originator of full flying; because their rule was circumvented, is frankly laughable.  

If you have ever spoken to any of the Oracle personnel from the SF era, (and I have) then they are quite humble in how the Kiwi's had them over a barrel, with their thinking and approach, and it was a series of luck, hard work, a juggernaut of a huge team with pretty much unlimited resources, that enabled them to perform the "Greatest Come Back" of all time. Great or Bitter, depending on whose side you supported, but epic sport nonetheless.

So whilst those involved realise the significance of what actually happened, and how it shaped the AC arena to what we witness today; they themselves do not have the one eyed vitriol that is written about here, but now mostly lost ( thanks Ed....). So why try to persistently drive an agenda and re-write history? Celebrate what it has led to instead. 

As others have written, they have tried & failed to counter your outlier opinion. I hope you will reconsider, but temper my expectations. 

Scientific progress Goes..... B_ _ _ _ !

You don't understant that AC foiling is an evolution, so you don't even realize the role of VPLP and assisted foiling in this evolution.

Also, your facts are wrong. Who should I trust about the rule not being designed to allow the possibility of foiling, you or Gino Morelli? 

http://cupexperience.com/gino-morelli-interview-ac72-design-rule/

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4 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

That's where my knowledge runs short. I think it's a pump / valve. But it wasn't clear if it was the whole part or a item within the part. It also wasn't clear whether the parts were failing completely, or just surpassing the warranted loads and therefore needed replacing / inspection. 

I don't think that's anything that hasn't been said in the foils thread though.

It doesn't stop them doing manoeuvres, is just stops them doing them back to back and obviously costs a huge amount of time on the water with support crew getting on and off. 

ENTZ recognised the problem too and started working on updated code right away. The accusation is that ENTZ have held on doing 'beta testing' of that new code for longer than the other teams were happy with. And really, as a one design supplied part the other teams could have been privy to it's workings, like when they were brought on board with the structural issues with the foil arm.

The new code turned up the day INEOS packed up. Perhaps a coincidence rather than malice from ETNZ.  But either way, when comparing the frequency of manoeuvres between the teams we'll have a better like for like comparison once AM and INEOS are on the new code. 

So no more excuses now though, right?  They should be knocking it out of the park from here on in?

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Yeah, no excuses now @Ex-yachtie . I'm not a fanboy and will be critical in equal measure. Just wanted to put the numbers for speeds quoted above and the manoeuvres in context, you know, for people who might be interested in speculating where the teams are and what the challenges they are facing. 

21 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Where was that accusation first made?

On here? It was in the old INEOS thread and I think its still in the foils comparison thread.

In 'real life' I've heard it first hand, plus second hand a few times. Obviously outing sources is a sure way never to be told anything ever again! However, the way it was discussed, and that the rumour was on here too, suggests it's pretty open knowledge within the cup circles. 

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4 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

 

In 'real life' I've heard it first hand, plus second hand a few times. Obviously outing sources is a sure way never to be told anything ever again! However, the way it was discussed, and that the rumour was on here too, suggests it's pretty open knowledge within the cup circles. 

Thanks for the info.  As I'm sure you can understand, unsourced allegations don't get much weight, because if it is a serious accusation and still of concern,  Ben would be doing something about it either by submission to the jury or in public. He's not one to shy away from anything if it hurts his competitive chances.

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11 hours ago, Salty Seacock said:

Really? That's amazing. Can you substantiate this statement other than with lies?

They were tracked by AIS recording a series of high 40's to just over the 50's but not on the first day. It was in the old thread. Would depend on how accurate AIS is of course. 

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Is it still of concern? Well, they have the code, so as said above, no more excuses. Did it harm their progress? Probably. 

I guess the main thing was they got some straight line data to calibrate the model and feed in to boat 2 which had to be signed off around the same time. But I guess being able to try more manoeuvres would have been helpful for deck layout and logistics of moving about, who does what etc. Stuff that is hard to recreate in the sim with some of real life issues. But... this first boat has been set up deliberately so it's easy to play around with those things and I think they'll have until much later to sign off on some of those decisions. Long term it may be pretty inconsequential, and not worth the fuss. But, thought it worth pointing out for context of lack of manoeuvres which Weta was calling them out for. 

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3 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Is it still of concern? Well, they have the code, so as said above, no more excuses. Did it harm their progress? Probably. 

I guess the main thing was they got some straight line data to calibrate the model and feed in to boat 2 which had to be signed off around the same time. But I guess being able to try more manoeuvres would have been helpful for deck layout and logistics of moving about, who does what etc. Stuff that is hard to recreate in the sim with some of real life issues. But... this first boat has been set up deliberately so it's easy to play around with those things and I think they'll have until much later to sign off on some of those decisions. Long term it may be pretty inconsequential, and not worth the fuss. But, thought it worth pointing out for context of lack of manoeuvres which Weta was calling them out for. 

Plus there is that mast to stiffen up for the extra loads - my guess here as I think they are running very high rig loads to get that twist for better sail control and utilize that ultra-stiff hull. Those semi rotating sections get quite interesting.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Thanks for the info.  As I'm sure you can understand, unsourced allegations don't get much weight, because if it is a serious accusation and still of concern,  Ben would be doing something about it either by submission to the jury or in public. He's not one to shy away from anything if it hurts his competitive chances.

 they had the AIS of INEOS show a 50 knts on first day, but it was surely the following motorboat and not Britannia doing 50 knts.

It was a spike in speed, going 10, 50, 10 within a minute or less.

Regards,

D.

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2 hours ago, chesirecat said:

They were tracked by AIS recording a series of high 40's to just over the 50's but not on the first day. It was in the old thread. Would depend on how accurate AIS is of course. 

Do you really believe the boats will be transmitting on AIS where all teams can see the heading and speeds ? 

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2 hours ago, chesirecat said:

Plus there is that mast to stiffen up for the extra loads - my guess here as I think they are running very high rig loads to get that twist for better sail control and utilize that ultra-stiff hull. Those semi rotating sections get quite interesting.

Ah no the mast will have a lot of flex to allow the top of that sail to open. A stiff mast will do the opposite. Think of it as the same way that windsurf sails are set up with a curve in the mast to set the down haul. You need flex to allow the top of the sail to breath. They will have a lot of rig tension. But I don’t see any evidence that they are ‘stiffer’ than anyone else

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2 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

lack of manoeuvres which Weta was calling them out for.

Not so much lack of manoeuvres as lack of video or other evidence of manoeuvres. Or of any sailing for that matter.

They put resources into graphics about the move to Cagliari, for example, so surprising there has been no video of sailing since those early ones.

Not a criticism, just a disappointment, would love to see them on the water doing their thing.

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4 minutes ago, TimmyHate said:

 

 

Hopefully someone got some video of the righting, one of the most interesting aspect of this design, given a capsize of either the AC50 or AC72 was game over for the day and possibly longer as it generally completely destroyed the wing skins and / or broke the wing sections, plus required large amounts of assistance to right.

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Doesn't look like they righted it unassisted. There looks to be a line running from the top-sides. The foil arm doesn't look to be in its fully down position either. Still pretty cool that they can get going again. 

25 minutes ago, Boybland said:

given a capsize of either the AC50 or AC72 was game over for the day and possibly longer as it generally completely destroyed the wing skins and / or broke the wing sections, plus required large amounts of assistance to right.

They don't even need to flip to damage the fragile wing. A good stuff of the bows can do that. Some of the splash downs Te Aihe's already done would have probably broken a wing. Good decision to remove them.

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[struggles to hold back convulsing guffaws]

Ahm...Well, it's good to see the boys working on yet more strategic moves. She does look very stable in this configuration. Very...ahm.. fast boat that...

[struggles to hold back writhing chortles]

Here you go - right as rain...

AHMED_whinces.thumb.png.605b48bd377ea711c0c9e8f1681ada13.png

(Self-righting Brought to You By, KiWhingerSpinoMaticTM)

Nothing to see here. Now, go win that race boys!

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4 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Like a fly to dog shit, it was to simply too yummy for the dipshit to resist.

That's why I'm hesitant to post the vid. Too much fodder for smackdiddle.

The entire thing looks like it is done very intentionally to me. Capsize drill.

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5 minutes ago, Mudz said:

That's why I'm hesitant to post the vid. Too much fodder for smackdiddle.

The entire thing look like it is done very intentionally to me. Capsize drill.

Dont worry about the troll, he cant comprehend what's going on at the best of times

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It is the first time one of the new foiling 75-foot monohulls has gone over since the Cup syndicates launched the first editions in September.

The boats are designed to avoid going completely upside down when they capsize.

The incident happened in the shadow of North Head in about 10 knots of south-west breeze.

The team used their chase boats to quickly right the boat.

A check for damage revealed no immediate issues and the crew resumed testing, getting the boat back up on its foils and powering off up the harbour.

 

from

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/118324240/americas-cup-team-new-zealand-capsize-new-boat

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5 minutes ago, kenergy said:

Too bad he doesn't have a clue what hes talking about.

The delusion is strong with this one. Whether it's his lame arse TM's which are not even remotely funny or witty. Or the self proclaimed "Forum legend". Such a douche.

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12 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Doesn't look like it was intentional. They just came out of a tack and got very high with the leeward foil breaking the surface - then over she goes. Great stuff.

So that's how high you can go, amazing. Mostly sailing with heaps of reserve.

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15 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Doesn't look like it was intentional. They just came out of a tack and got very high with the leeward foil breaking the surface - then over she goes. Great stuff.

That's a gybe.

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17 minutes ago, barfy said:

So that's how high you can go, amazing.

They did get very high - looked like they were going to take off. Spectacular viewing. It went over very slowly. I'd imagine going over at speed could be more problematical.

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Curious to know if helmsman was to leeward during gybe and if so, what does he do in this situation, as he's under the deck sweeping main which sounds a little freaky, especially as they did a big ease as they went over. Does he swim forward to the mast or swim back under the main?

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41 minutes ago, barfy said:

See the main release about half way over, only goes out a meter...at a disadvantage with these boats if youcock up down wind.

 

That’s an advantage AM has with a traditional boom. Although I don’t think they’ll keep it that way to the Louis Vuitton Cup.

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10 minutes ago, Justaquickone said:

If it wasn't for the limited travel on the hydraulic mainsheet setup i reccon they could of saved it .

But then again the head count might have been greatly reduced with extended travel ?

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The ED is all over this quote  "This has Shit show written all over it.!" .  The cats capsized too. It continued sailing after the tip so how is that a Shit show?  Not sure why the negativity is there towards this form of sailing? 

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10 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

You don't understant that AC foiling is an evolution, so you don't even realize the role of VPLP and assisted foiling in this evolution.

Also, your facts are wrong. Who should I trust about the rule not being designed to allow the possibility of foiling, you or Gino Morelli? 

http://cupexperience.com/gino-morelli-interview-ac72-design-rule/

Wow.......

So I read your supporting "evidence"......And "Wow" was a word included as a quote from Morelli, that jumped out at me.

It is also very telling that he talks about, how theoretically, the boats were going to be big enough and powerful enough to achieve foiling, given loose rules. But he also freely talks about how this would be both prohibitively expensive and need a control mechanism like a Moth wand or "Herbie" style device to achieve controlled flight. Yet he reminds us that the rule was designed to Prevent full flight, and kept to the role of foil assist. The fact that the Kiwi's achieved what we saw in spite of this escapes you. 

I worked on the ORMA circuit during its zenith with Boats using C foils for foil assist - so do not tell me that I do not understand Foil Assist.....

So the fact that you can read all this and yet claim that M&M are the creators Full Flight Technology in this class remains Laughable (no disrepect to M&M.....).

This discussion is like arguing with a fool who claims 2+2=22. You see waht you want to see. You are entrenched, unswerving and either trolling or deluded. I'll let others decide....

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1 hour ago, Hemi said:

Curious to know if helmsman was to leeward during gybe and if so, what does he do in this situation, as he's under the deck sweeping main which sounds a little freaky, especially as they did a big ease as they went over. Does he swim forward to the mast or swim back under the main?

I'd say anyone on the leeward side could use the 'crew channel' as an escape way. Its below the level of the DSM and should allow them to travel towards to the stern and pop up behind the main

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3 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Doesn't look like they righted it unassisted. There looks to be a line running from the top-sides. The foil arm doesn't look to be in its fully down position either. Still pretty cool that they can get going again. 

They don't even need to flip to damage the fragile wing. A good stuff of the bows can do that. Some of the splash downs Te Aihe's already done would have probably broken a wing. Good decision to remove them.

Might be unassisted. To my eye, it looks like line running to the top-sides is the running backstay.

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4 hours ago, TimmyHate said:

No privacy on the Waitemata!  

Guess we're gonna learn lots more about this mishap. ETNZ will learn more still.

This shows Te Aihe capsized at 1045 hrs.  Later posts show her upright and stably foiling at 1108 hrs, boat and crew seemingly no worse for the wear after their unexpected dunking. 

At this writing no video of recovery but it had to be quick. I'm sure more posts will flesh out the timeline and views.

Given the spectator boats and assorted cameras ETNZ had no choice but self report but good for them for the speed and openness in responding.

This kinda cancels out Ed's hand-wringing on the FP.

 

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Well, that capsize was a hell of a lot less dramatic than with the cats, that's for sure.

Something very reassuring about a fin with a great lump of lead on the bottom, though it has to be said. 

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8 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Well, that capsize was a hell of a lot less dramatic than with the cats, that's for sure.

Something very reassuring about a fin with a great lump of lead on the bottom, though it has to be said. 

True, less dramatic, they were  able to switch the starboard fin to a right under the boat position.
Or is the down position only obtained by gravity? Then they were not able to get it self righting.
 

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1 hour ago, Justaquickone said:

If it wasn't for the limited travel on the hydraulic mainsheet setup i reccon they could of saved it .

Nah. Looked like the rudder stalled and then she rounded up, arse over turkey.

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