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It's pissing down outside and yes, we are back to Level 3. To all those moaning and bitching about it and calling the PM childish names, get a grip, we are the luckiest people in the world right

After many hours of consideration, a lot of in-depth research on the SA technical threads, extensive computational modelling and a few quick & dirty minutes in Photoshop, I have produced this anal

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10 hours ago, Kiwing said:

That Aussie mastermind who has been a major part of the team developing these sailing wonders.  The bikes provided the oil a plenty but it was the sailors developed the magic we only got to speculate about. Wing flutter, inverting the top to get the COE way down etc.

The Aussie sailing guru and all around awesome bloke 

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15 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

There are two steering pedestals.  It only takes one to tow in the boat, but two to sail the boat.

Yes, my point was that if it was towed home foiling they didn't think they had any major structural damage.

Just a broken steering pedestal wouldn't have been enough to cause an early retirement for B1, pretty sure that could be rush replaced between races, certainly overnight.

 

So either it was a planned retirement (possibly subsequently unexpected B2 delays?) or they found there was actually major stuff broken & they've only admitted to the pedestal.

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9 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

You forget that ETNZ has already racked up a lot more sailing miles than the other teams.

Advantage ETNZ at the moment.

I think that honor actually sits with American Magic based on where they all sat prior to B2 launches, there were articles that referenced the days on the water and AM were way ahead 

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3 hours ago, SV Resolute said:

 

A bit long at 1.5+ hrs, but some interesting things when they get to the meat, about 30 min in:

  • 36:30 Twin skins reduce drag, very stable trim
    Mast 650mm long, 400mm wide (!)
  • 40:20 "B1 will probably never sail again"
  • 42:40 "And here's a sneak peak..." at B2.... yeah.... NAH
  • 45:00 Race time at 4 pm, as local weather systems move around in Feb/Mar, settles down around 4.  Course = prestart 3.5-4 mins, windward first leg, 2 laps (?), races about 25 mins.
  • 48:30 Rule allows "reefable" sail, although not using it.
  • 54:40 AWA = 15°, up & down wind
  • 1:00:00 "Fastest boat ever upwind, over 20 kns VMG"
  • 1:03:20 No "follow the dots" instruments, 1 sec delay on instruments
    Foils - everyone up to 4 of 6
  • 1:08:40 Change from 10 -> 15 knots TWS "a big deal"... expect boat in water under 10?
  • 1:09:20 Skins generally touching each other
    Main 135-145M^2, most teams have light and strong wind mains
    Code Zero - take-off at ~7.5 kns TWS, mainly to get airborne
    #1 - used at 2 knots faster TWS (9.5) - size ? couldn't understand
    #2 - 17-18 kns+, ~50m^2
  • Only one headsail allowed on boat
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10 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

I think that honor actually sits with American Magic based on where they all sat prior to B2 launches, there were articles that referenced the days on the water and AM were way ahead 

Including the mini AC boats? Only counting the time spent in Auckland?  Either way I don't think there is anything to be read into the current apparent rest time.  I haven't heard any rumours doing the rounds to suggest otherwise and everything is on schedule.

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1 hour ago, MaxHugen said:

A bit long at 1.5+ hrs, but some interesting things when they get to the meat, about 30 min in:

  • 36:30 Twin skins reduce drag, very stable trim
    Mast 650mm long, 400mm wide (!)
  • 40:20 "B1 will probably never sail again"
  • 42:40 "And here's a sneak peak..." at B2.... yeah.... NAH
  • 45:00 Race time at 4 pm, as local weather systems move around in Feb/Mar, settles down around 4.  Course = prestart 3.5-4 mins, windward first leg, 2 laps (?), races about 25 mins.
  • 48:30 Rule allows "reefable" sail, although not using it.
  • 54:40 AWA = 15°, up & down wind
  • 1:00:00 "Fastest boat ever upwind, over 20 kns VMG"
  • 1:03:20 No "follow the dots" instruments, 1 sec delay on instruments
    Foils - everyone up to 4 of 6
  • 1:08:40 Change from 10 -> 15 knots TWS "a big deal"... expect boat in water under 10?
  • 1:09:20 Skins generally touching each other
    Main 135-145M^2, most teams have light and strong wind mains
    Code Zero - take-off at ~7.5 kns TWS, mainly to get airborne
    #1 - used at 2 knots faster TWS (9.5) - size ? couldn't understand
    #2 - 17-18 kns+, ~50m^2
  • Only one headsail allowed on boat

Also a retrospective:

  • 1:18.10 - hinting that ETNZ had further tricks up their sleeve in Bermuda in 2017 that they did not need to use to win the cup. 
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6 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

A reasonable summary of the 40+ page dump by ETNZ.

America's Cup: Team New Zealand criticises MBIE's handling of whistleblower allegations

Todd Niall16:43, Nov 10 2020

Team New Zealand is in the midst of a major falling out with the ministry funding part of the America's Cup sailing event.

The cup defender claims the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) acted inappropriately in its handling of allegations by a whistleblower that were later disproved. MBIE refutes it acted inappropriately.

Team New Zealand said it was unaware for five months that its event partner MBIE was investigating allegations against it, and was continuing to receive new recordings made of its board meetings.

Speak loudly, and carry a big stick!

Grant Dalton and the ETNZ and ACE directors and prime movers have cut loose with this no-holds-barred spirited defence that takes aim at their various detractors including Mayo and Calder, MBIE and its Chief Executive Carolyn Tremain.

After months of pussy-footing around wildly inflated issues, we get an inside look at the molehill machinations the NZ Herald has vainly been trying to cobble into a mountain.

All that remains is the mediation to come in December.  The one we know about over the legitimacy of ETNZ's $3 million claim for the Defender's share of design and engineering work related to the finalising of the generic AC75 concept. 

The Defender/Challenger split on that kind of stuff has been SOP in the past.  Nothing to see here.  Please move along!

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^^.... Leeches not joined. Wind astern when lost apparent on touchdown downwind blew skins up like a party balloon. 

Top 4m of main is open slather. Think this is where the magic will happen. Power needed for takeoff but may need inverted at speed. Top 2/3 of cat wings were inverted at speed for RM with huge drag. Twisting/inverting 2 skins must be devilishly hard. Haven't seen any speculation how that may happen. They said there's a 7:1 tradeoff of weight at masthead ie twist control mechanism, to RM and weight required down below. 

Starts upwind from a confined box may be tricky with little stopping ability. Will be some dogfights. 

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5 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

irrespective of the the validity of each party's claims, isn't it concerning that MBIE and ACE have fallen out so badly?

 If ETNZ do win, wouldn't bode well for the next round

It might, 'cept there willl be no M&C flies in the ointment next time!

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30 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

irrespective of the the validity of each party's claims, isn't it concerning that MBIE and ACE have fallen out so badly?

If ETNZ do win, wouldn't bode well for the next round

Events happen in NZ despite our current government,  not due to their assistance. They are a level of incompetent that defies description. 

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Just now, enigmatically2 said:

If ETNZ do win, wouldn't bode well for the next round

No worries Enematically, good chance that Carolyn Tremain will be gone by then.

And Dalts might be gone too, but then PJ Montgomery will have to call him Sir Grant...

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9 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

A reasonable summary of the 40+ page dump by ETNZ.

America's Cup: Team New Zealand criticises MBIE's handling of whistleblower allegations

Todd Niall16:43, Nov 10 2020

Team New Zealand is in the midst of a major falling out with the ministry funding part of the America's Cup sailing event.

The cup defender claims the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) acted inappropriately in its handling of allegations by a whistleblower that were later disproved. MBIE refutes it acted inappropriately.

Team New Zealand said it was unaware for five months that its event partner MBIE was investigating allegations against it, and was continuing to receive new recordings made of its board meetings.

Team New Zealand says MBIE acted inappropriately in its handling of allegations by a whistleblower, which were later disproved.
HANNAH PETERS/GETTY IMAGES
Team New Zealand says MBIE acted inappropriately in its handling of allegations by a whistleblower, which were later disproved.

In a public dump of correspondence between the team and MBIE, the cup defender revealed it has referred its complaint to public watchdogs such as the Ombudsman, and the State Services’ Commission.

 

At the root of the fallout is the six months MBIE spent working with the "whistleblower", contractors Mayo and Calder, before flagging with Team New Zealand that allegations had been laid.

Mayo and Calder were contracted by both ACE and the Italian Challenger of Record, to help with event management, but the firm has lost both roles, and is now embroiled in law suits with Team New Zealand.

An MBIE-commissioned audit found no wrongdoing by Team New Zealand or its sister company America's Cup Event Limited (ACE), which is partnered with MBIE and Auckland Council to run the event.

A detailed backgrounder written by ACE director Greg Horton on 17 September, details how MBIE demanded Team NZ CEO Grant Dalton step down from his parallel role heading ACE, first in a phone call to team chair Sir Stephen Tindall on June 23.

“Mr (Iain) Cossar separately advised (ACE chair) Tina Symman on a phone call on Monday June 29 – that Mr Dalton and other personnel needed to be replaced and that was a non-negotiable,” wrote Horton.

Another example of the rift is in an August 12 letter from ACE directors Greg Horton and Tina Symmans replying to MBIE chief executive officer Carolyn Tremain.

"The overall tone of the (Tremain) letter is disappointing and unacceptable given the nature of our relationship," ACE wrote.

"We are concerned that the hosts’ actions to date represent a departure from the spirit of co-operation and partnership that has existed over the past two and a half years."

Team New Zealand's Te Aihe in full flight during training in Auckland.
EMIRATES TEAM NZ
Team New Zealand's Te Aihe in full flight during training in Auckland.

Tindall on Tuesday told Stuff the decision to go public followed a reported reference in news media from MBIE that at one point it had contacted the Serious Fraud Office over the allegations.

The Team NZ chair tried to clarify that comment with MBIE CEO Carolyn Tremain, in a phone call.

“Carolyn said she had spoken to the SFO, I asked her how did that go, she said I can’t tell you,” said Tindall.

Team New Zealand and MBIE are locked in a mediation process to work through the defender's accusation of bad faith, and the resolve a $3 million transfer between ACE and Team NZ.

 

ACE said the payment represented half of the cost of the team creating a new class of boat for the event, but MBIE believed it should not be considered an event cost.

However, the mediation has yet to begin because Team NZ has sought information from MBIE under the Official information Act and was told in July that the information might not be provided until November.

In another indicator of the broken relationship between Team NZ and MBIE, Horton wrote in September to Tremain saying letters raising good faith, natural justice and other matters remained unanswered.

“We sought to raise these issues in our telephone call with MBIE on 18 August 2020 but were advised that we were ‘out of line’ and if we pursued the issues the call would end,” Horton wrote.

Team NZ Skipper Glenn Ashby, team principal Matteo de Nora, helmsman Peter Burling and CEO Grant Dalton celebrate winning the America’s Cup in Bermuda in 2017.
GILLES MARTIN-RAGET /ACEA 2017
Team NZ Skipper Glenn Ashby, team principal Matteo de Nora, helmsman Peter Burling and CEO Grant Dalton celebrate winning the America’s Cup in Bermuda in 2017.

“Separately, [Team NZ chair] Sir Stephen Tindall was advised by MBIE [Ms Tremain] on or about 18 August, that should we raise the good faith and natural justice issues publicly that the senior government ministers involved and MBIE would be very critical of us in the public arena, or words to that effect.”

Stuff understands that even the strong wording of the correspondence underplays the depth of feeling inside Team NZ leadership over how MBIE has treated it in dealing with the disproved allegations.

MBIE chief executive Carolyn Tremain said it had treated all parties involved with “due respect” and strongly refuted issues raised in the letters from ACE.

Tremain said the ministry appointed experienced and professional forensic accountants to verify ACE and Team New Zealand complied with their respective obligations.

MBIE Chief Executive Carolyn Tremain said the Ministry strongly refutes many of the letters raised in the letters from ACE.
ROSS GIBLIN/STUFF
MBIE Chief Executive Carolyn Tremain said the Ministry strongly refutes many of the letters raised in the letters from ACE.

“As noted by Mr Horton in his statement of 17 September released by ETNZ to media, ACE has acknowledged that the approach to the provision of the required information needed for the audit was unhelpful, and that more fulsome disclosures would have helped to address the concerns (auditor) Beattie Varley had raised.”

Tremain said MBIE and ACE jointly agreed to mediation, which was the “appropriate place to discuss and resolve such issues”.

It was expected this mediation will occur in December.

“MBIE remains committed to playing its part to ensure the hosting of the 36th America’s Cup is a successful event,” Tremain said.

zicke, zacke, hühnerkacke !

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Haven't the gaps in ETNZ sailing also coincided with training commitments for the team members in the Olympic classes?? IIRC the kiwi 49/49FX teams were out sailing again recently including Pete and Blair. Could this down time have been planned to give the Olympic boys a chance to get some hours in before the push to Xmas in B2?

 

 

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7 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

A bit long at 1.5+ hrs, but some interesting things when they get to the meat, about 30 min in:

  • 36:30 Twin skins reduce drag, very stable trim
    Mast 650mm long, 400mm wide (!)
  • 40:20 "B1 will probably never sail again"
  • 42:40 "And here's a sneak peak..." at B2.... yeah.... NAH
  • 45:00 Race time at 4 pm, as local weather systems move around in Feb/Mar, settles down around 4.  Course = prestart 3.5-4 mins, windward first leg, 2 laps (?), races about 25 mins.
  • 48:30 Rule allows "reefable" sail, although not using it.
  • 54:40 AWA = 15°, up & down wind
  • 1:00:00 "Fastest boat ever upwind, over 20 kns VMG"
  • 1:03:20 No "follow the dots" instruments, 1 sec delay on instruments
    Foils - everyone up to 4 of 6
  • 1:08:40 Change from 10 -> 15 knots TWS "a big deal"... expect boat in water under 10?
  • 1:09:20 Skins generally touching each other
    Main 135-145M^2, most teams have light and strong wind mains
    Code Zero - take-off at ~7.5 kns TWS, mainly to get airborne
    #1 - used at 2 knots faster TWS (9.5) - size ? couldn't understand
    #2 - 17-18 kns+, ~50m^2
  • Only one headsail allowed on boat

Very nice summary.  

Here area few point I also noticed.  

The wing still is more efficient and has more control than the twin sails.  The twin sails have a nice clean transition and keep their shape through tacks and never flutter like you see with a single sail.  The boats never really jibe, only tack because you are always going into the apparent wind.  Like Max noted, the AWA is about 15°, the only difference is the speed of the apparent wind. 

 

Here is a peak at the sail for B2 while under 110% of design load:

1709223255_NZB2Mainsail.thumb.jpg.90527f3557ea662fa12a5821674cb3ba.jpg

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8 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

A bit long at 1.5+ hrs, but some interesting things when they get to the meat, about 30 min in:

  • 36:30 Twin skins reduce drag, very stable trim
    Mast 650mm long, 400mm wide (!)
  • 40:20 "B1 will probably never sail again"
  • 42:40 "And here's a sneak peak..." at B2.... yeah.... NAH
  • 45:00 Race time at 4 pm, as local weather systems move around in Feb/Mar, settles down around 4.  Course = prestart 3.5-4 mins, windward first leg, 2 laps (?), races about 25 mins.
  • 48:30 Rule allows "reefable" sail, although not using it.
  • 54:40 AWA = 15°, up & down wind
  • 1:00:00 "Fastest boat ever upwind, over 20 kns VMG"
  • 1:03:20 No "follow the dots" instruments, 1 sec delay on instruments
    Foils - everyone up to 4 of 6
  • 1:08:40 Change from 10 -> 15 knots TWS "a big deal"... expect boat in water under 10?
  • 1:09:20 Skins generally touching each other
    Main 135-145M^2, most teams have light and strong wind mains
    Code Zero - take-off at ~7.5 kns TWS, mainly to get airborne
    #1 - used at 2 knots faster TWS (9.5) - size ? couldn't understand
    #2 - 17-18 kns+, ~50m^2
  • Only one headsail allowed on boat

1:07 Confirmation of inverting the wings to provide righting moment, from about 15-18knts, but it's "quite draggy".

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19 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

1:07 Confirmation of inverting the wings to provide righting moment, from about 15-18knts, but it's "quite draggy".

He actually says "correcting moment", ie., I presume, they had to de-power the top of the hard wings as they were more powerful than the boat could handle.

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7 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

irrespective of the the validity of each party's claims, isn't it concerning that MBIE and ACE have fallen out so badly?

If ETNZ do win, wouldn't bode well for the next round

Government Departments are supposed to implement policy NOT create it i.e. you don't need to convince the bureaucrats just the politicians and the Government.  With the AC being the only truly international gig in town I don't think ETNZ will have much problem.

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9 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

irrespective of the the validity of each party's claims, isn't it concerning that MBIE and ACE have fallen out so badly?

In the short-term, news like this can’t help PR-wise but the mediation will likely be resolved in December and the public generally has short memory. 
 

OTOH: Reading some of the most recent articles it appears that what set ACE/ETNZ off, with yesterday’s attack on MBIE and corresponding letters release, was a report the previous day that MBIE had been in contact with the Serious Fraud Office (SFO). The ACE lawyer says there must not be any SFO investigation because ACE has not had to answer questions from them, and he may well be right. The concern ACE should probably have, is around if by attacking MBIE, the reciprocating move by MBIE will be to press SFO for actually starting an investigation now. ETNZ/ACE have a bunch of lawyers whereas MBIE seems to have had only that one QC guy on their side (I forget his name) but SFO is likely high-powered and ACE/ETNZ are likely to have been right, to be concerned by reports of possible SFO interest in wth all has gone down. SFO prosecutors don’t make the law but they have actual laws and potential lawbreaking to look into - it’s what they do. Hence the alarm at ACE/ETNZ about any potential SFO investigation, one they have asked about but have not been answered about. 

Sadly for all parties, this thing is far from over; in fact it appears to be escalating. 
 

Isn’t there some way this can be blamed on BB and/or Prada? Lol

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28 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Isn’t there some way this can be blamed on BB and/or Prada? Lol

Of course there is; Mayo & Calder were working for the CoR at the same time that they were supplying illicit recordings and confidential documents to MBIE, with someone also leaking snippets of these to the media.

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39 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The concern ACE should probably have, is around if by attacking MBIE, the reciprocating move by MBIE will be to press SFO for actually starting an investigation now.

Why?  To cover their arse?  You keep forgetting that Beattie Varley were ex senior SFO staff.  They found NO serious issues!  

39 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

ETNZ/ACE have a bunch of lawyers whereas MBIE seems to have had only that one QC guy on their side (I forget his name)

Poor MBIE - they have an entire legal department amongst their 3,000 employees and the "one QC guy on their side" just happens to be one Michael Heron QC, ex-Solicitor General of New Zealand.  Also by comparison MBIE have unlimited resources - but it seems that advantage isn't helping them do the right thing.  As for Heron if you read Horton's description of his behaviour in a meeting it would appear that he has had to resort to aggression/bluff rather than substance which would indicate that MBIE have screwed this up completely.

39 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Hence the alarm at ACE/ETNZ about any potential SFO investigation, one they have asked about but have not been answered about. 

The biggest concern ETNZ have is that it appears MBIE, Mayo & Calder and or a third party are choosing to play this out through the media.  If you read the document dump in its entirety you will find that ETNZ have been trying to address any issues (they haven't yet been told what the actual issue is) since January!  11 months to try and nail something would suggest that there isn't anything there!

It appears that MBIE have personal connections with M&C that is clouding their judgment.  Don't forget it was a M&C employee that got suckered by the Hungarian scam for $3m!  Given the fact that the BS NZ Herald articles don't mention WHO the SFO have been asked to look into it could just as easily be M&C that is being investigated.

Typical of the current Government the responsible Minister has been quoted today as saying day "it is a matter for the parties concerned to resolve and doesn't require Ministerial intervention."  

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44 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

In the short-term, news like this can’t help PR-wise but the mediation will likely be resolved in December and the public generally has short memory. 
 

OTOH: Reading some of the most recent articles it appears that what set ACE/ETNZ off, with yesterday’s attack on MBIE and corresponding letters release, was a report the previous day that MBIE had been in contact with the Serious Fraud Office (SFO). The ACE lawyer says there must not be any SFO investigation because ACE has not had to answer questions from them, and he may well be right. The concern ACE should probably have, is around if by attacking MBIE, the reciprocating move by MBIE will be to press SFO for actually starting an investigation now. ETNZ/ACE have a bunch of lawyers whereas MBIE seems to have had only that one QC guy on their side (I forget his name) but SFO is likely high-powered and ACE/ETNZ are likely to have been right, to be concerned by reports of possible SFO interest in wth all has gone down. SFO prosecutors don’t make the law but they have actual laws and potential lawbreaking to look into - it’s what they do. Hence the alarm at ACE/ETNZ about any potential SFO investigation, one they have asked about but have not been answered about. 

Sadly for all parties, this thing is far from over; in fact it appears to be escalating. 
 

Isn’t there some way this can be blamed on BB and/or Prada? Lol

"burble burble fart..."

sniff

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I see lots of finger-pointing above and by the ACE lawyer but the crux of the issue (no matter who is being attacked now this time) is surely the actual facts of how the money got spent, and why, and by who’s authorization if it gets found to be ‘fraud.’ A ‘loan’ originally, then ‘boogied’ to make it an outright payment. The facts will matter, not the (badly deteriorating) personal bashing going on.
 

Take the courses fiasco, did bashing BB/Prada and/or M&C help with ACE’s problems, or did it (big surprise!) instead come down to fixing things with the Ports of Auckland?
 

It’s hard to think of anybody that ACE is not making enemies with, starting since the original AC Village fights, where they fought for the 8 team setup and Viaduct harbor pier extensions but cooler heads prevailed instead. 
 

During TE’s show today he repeated a ‘one hears’ (yes, I know...) about how GD is shopping the venue for in case they win, and Defend AC37. 

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

I see lots of finger-pointing above and by the ACE lawyer but the crux of the issue (no matter who is being attacked now this time) is surely the actual facts of how the money got spent, and why, and by who’s authorization if it gets found to be ‘fraud.’ A ‘loan’ originally, then ‘boogied’ to make it an outright payment. The facts will matter, not the (badly deteriorating) personal bashing going on.

Keep trying Stingray - you keep ignoring the Beattie Varley investigation and report that found NOTHING! Zip, nada, nothing!  

1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

It’s hard to think of anybody that ACE is not making enemies with, starting since the original AC Village fights, where they fought for the 8 team setup and Viaduct harbor pier extensions but cooler heads prevailed instead. 

Who cares if they make "enemies" - they will be measured on one thing only - the success of the EVENT!

If GD is putting out feelers for an alternative venue in the future then good on him as that puts ETNZ in a great bargaining position.  If ETNZ decides to go elsewhere then you can only blame the bureaucratic nonsense and ineptitude of MBIE and co.

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15 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

If GD is putting out feelers for an alternative venue in the future then good on him as that puts ETNZ in a great bargaining position.  If ETNZ decides to go elsewhere then you can only blame the bureaucratic nonsense and ineptitude of MBIE and co.

and that blame will not be correctly apportioned where it is due, and the Kiwi Public Service protects it's own (particularly the high ranking ones) to a ridiculous degree ....

not surprising really when you consider the calibre and ineptitude shown on most occaisions 

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20 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Keep trying Stingray - you keep ignoring the Beattie Varley investigation and report that found NOTHING! Zip, nada, nothing!  

Am not trying anything, just commenting.

About the BV report, when you read quotes directly by the ACE lawyer he takes a big issue with an argument made by an MBIE guy (Cosser?) who had insisted on some extra lines being put into that otherwise-‘All Good’ press release but that got redacted. I read that BV report one lazy night, and then the press release that described it, and thought ‘Dang, that’s not at all what the BV report said!’ Lol. And I posted as much here, it was that strange. Some NZ website who’s name escapes me posted a blistering piece about that exact same discrepancy. BV called for a governance change at ACE. MBIE has been calling, even insisting on it, too. GD could have nipped this in the bud by leaving the event-run and money side of things to others, is my take on it. Why didn’t he, since he has no evident expertise in that arena? 

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11 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

BV called for a governance change at ACE. MBIE has been calling, even insisting on it, too

They won't get it.  I suggest you read this weeks document again.  If the issue MBIE has is wanting a leadership change then going to the SFO won't change it.  MBIE have yet to tell ETNZ/ACE what the issue IS!

There is no fraud, there is no mismanagement (other than by M&C and arguably MBIE), there is nothing!   What there is however is clearly an incompetent Government Department who are not following even basic tenet of natural justice or good faith.

As with anything - follow the money.  In whose interests is it to continue to leak information to the media.  In my opinion the finger points to M&C.

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22 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

If GD is putting out feelers for an alternative venue in the future then good on him as that puts ETNZ in a great bargaining position.

Sure, could be. But the ‘one hears’ rumor is that a bunch of cities have been approached and what GD wants is for them to give money now, upfront, to earn the right to be in the bidding for being the next host venue should ETNZ win AC36. It suggests money problems at ETNZ, which could explain the MBIE s-fight too. 

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

It suggests money problems at ETNZ, which could explain the MBIE s-fight too

ETNZ have always had money issues.  Nothing new there.  But I don't know how it explains MBIE's fight!  There is nothing to stop MBIE from keeping to their contract and passing on progress payments.

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58 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

It suggests money problems at ETNZ, which could explain the MBIE s-fight too. 

Word on the waterfront is, MBIE wanted to get GD removed from ACE altogether. There was a time when the yardarm sorted any such treachery. 

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Sure, could be. But the ‘one hears’ rumor is that a bunch of cities have been approached and what GD wants is for them to give money now, upfront, to earn the right to be in the bidding for being the next host venue should ETNZ win AC36. It suggests money problems at ETNZ, which could explain the MBIE s-fight too. 

One hears that Thomas F. Ehman, Jr. who has distinguished himself in AC matters for decades is today a spent force, struggling for relevance.

Must say I admire your diligence in dredging up America's Cup articles and commentary. However your predisposition to interpret leaves something to be desired!

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2 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

One hears that Thomas F. Ehman, Jr. who has distinguished himself in AC matters for decades is today a spent force, struggling for relevance.

Must say I admire your diligence in dredging up America's Cup articles and commentary. However your predisposition to interpret leaves something to be desired!

His ability to go out on a limb, of a dig, of a comment, of a rumor, of poisoned agenda is impressive...

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Take the courses fiasco, did bashing BB/Prada and/or M&C help with ACE’s problems, or did it (big surprise!) instead come down to fixing things with the Ports of Auckland?

ETNZ did exactly what they thought they needed to do, to get the outcome that they wanted. And They Got It. You have demonstrated over and over you don't appreciate the machinations and manouvres, nor the actors and pressures at play in these scenarios. Perhaps this is why you don't grok how this has played out. 

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10 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

1:07 Confirmation of inverting the wings to provide righting moment, from about 15-18knts, but it's "quite draggy".

Haven't re-watched that segment, but I think they were referring to the solid wings, with the implication that it was not such an issue with the twin skins?

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2 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

Haven't re-watched that segment, but I think they were referring to the solid wings, with the implication that it was not such an issue with the twin skins?

...because of the size of the rig on the AC75 being so much smaller (than the AC72 and AC50) in relation to LWL, as necessitated in an environment of high AWS and consequently high drag.

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2 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

...because of the size of the rig on the AC75 being so much smaller (than the AC72 and AC50) in relation to LWL, as necessitated in an environment of high AWS and consequently high drag.

Yep. I think they also described it as because the entire upper part of the solid wing was pivoted to do that, whereas the twin skins get "twisted" progressively, so they can change just the very top (and smaller) part of the sail.

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24 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Yep. I think they also described it as because the entire upper part of the solid wing was pivoted to do that, whereas the twin skins get "twisted" progressively, so they can change just the very top (and smaller) part of the sail.

I think the inference from Burns was that they were overpowered and the excess rig, far too draggy.

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11 hours ago, weta27 said:

Yes, I've got my tinfoil hat on today :D 

But cynical speculation works both ways ...

Caroline Tremain is a typical bureaucrat with no experience in the real world. She'll be told to pull her head in and settle the mediation in ETNZ's favour promptly.

Don't pay any attention to the BLM idiot spouting off conspiratorial BS over things he knows SFA about.

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7 hours ago, amc said:

You know it is just possible that what “one hears” is a warning shot to someone or some people not to take things for granted. 

Then RNZYS needs to tell him (assuming you are meaning GD) to pull his fucking head in.

 

GD has made a series of lousy decisions that have cost the taxpayer a lot of $$$, he's run ACE poorly & he's made disgraceful Media attacks on anyone else when those things turned out to be bad, never once come out with a mea culpa.

He has the benefit of watching (& critiquing) Russell Coutts do a shitty job of trying to run both Defender and Host in 2* ACs.

He should have learnt from that not to try to run both Defender & Host himself -> he has no excuse.

 

12 hours ago, weta27 said:

Mayo & Calder were working for the CoR at the same time

This line keeps getting rolled out as if GD & (since they've inserted themselves in the public discussion) the board had no idea that M&C were representing both ACE & CoR.

Its completely obviously bullshit.

If they didn't know they're grossly incompetent managers and must immediately resign from TNZ & ACE. (and should be kicked out of any other position of authority they hold)

 

No, they MUST have known. Known and agreed with that self-dealing, conflict-of-interest soup of a setup or M&C would have been fucking fired at the first ACE - CoR meeting:

GD: I call this meeting to order.

Attendance: Me, boss of ACE & TNZ -Present.

M&C representing ACE -Present

CoR? Where is the CoR representative?! M&C you did send the invite right?

M&C: Yeah nah, we're present.

GD: Yes you're the ACE representative, where is the CoR representative?

M&C: Yes thats us.

GD: No, you're the ACE representative.

M&C: Yes. We're ALSO the CoR representative.

GD: No you're not.

M&C: Yes we are.

GD: Then you're not working for ACE as of now & you're moving out of the ACE/TNZ offices as soon as you leave this room.

**Gets up & opens the door**

GD: Someone who works for ACE and not CoR get in the room. NOW.

...

But that didn't happen.

They knew that M&C were representing both organisations because they set it up that way intentionally -> they bear full responsibility for the shit-show that has been the outcome of M&C representing both organisations.

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6 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

One hears that Thomas F. Ehman, Jr. who has distinguished himself in AC matters for decades is today a spent force, struggling for relevance.

Must say I admire your diligence in dredging up America's Cup articles and commentary. However your predisposition to interpret leaves something to be desired!

Spewbot is a tired little regurgitating terrier. Normally I never read his thousands posts of cut and paste news, his parroting of "one hears, I know", but he has dug into this farce with a single mindedness that would make you think he's been Fucked while asleep on a date rape drug. Too bad for all the quotes really,and my fault for taking the bait.

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2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

I think the inference from Burns was that they were overpowered and the excess rig, far too draggy.

Dalts said on a few occasions they reckoned it was overpowered at the wind limits prescribed .

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This part is encouraging

As an aside, Symmans adds that ACE has been able to acquire the services of some excellent people in event management following the conference and event downturn post-COVID19. "An extraordinarily good team has ironically come in as a result of this debacle. Many of them have extraordinarily good event experience - ACE probably wouldn't have had access to those people had it not been for COVID", she adds.

https://www.sail-world.com/news/233050/Americas-Cup-Cup-holders-return-unfriendly-fire

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On 11/10/2020 at 10:15 AM, MaxHugen said:

A bit long at 1.5+ hrs, but some interesting things when they get to the meat, about 30 min in: 

  • 1:03:20 No "follow the dots" instruments, 1 sec delay on instruments
     

That's quite interesting and something I must've missed so far. No real time feedback on instruments. Brings it a lot closer to sailing as we know it. 

(I remember a bit from Glenn in the the last AC where he said he's focusing more on the instruments than the wing itself, likening it to an airline pilot who's not observing the flaps but the related instruments.) 

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But going to be harder if their heads are down. Might explain some of the height changes we have been seeing as a feedback loop with that sort of delay would cause the variations we have been seeing. 

But I bet in initial training they turn that delay off to get used to it, so we may see teams being good one day and worse the next as they turn such delays back on,

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28 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Damn. I was hoping it rode higher up in the water. Plain old boring props. Probably only tops out in the mid sixty knot range. 

I think you'll find that it will go a lot faster than that.  4 x 4.6l V8 4 Stroke's + Supercharging.  Weigh in at 313 kg's each.  Cost:  About $85,000 each.

On a Formula 430 they topped out at 62 knots but that boat weighs 11,000 kg.  What would the weight be of the ETNZ chase boat?

The Midnight Express 43 footer topped at 82 knots and they weigh about 7,500 kg.

At cruise I think I calculated they would consume about NZD$1,800 an hour.

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9 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I think you'll find that it will go a lot faster than that.  4 x 4.6l V8 4 Stroke's + Supercharging.  Weigh in at 313 kg's each.  Cost:  About $85,000 each.

On a Formula 430 they topped out at 62 knots but that boat weighs 11,000 kg.  What would the weight be of the ETNZ chase boat?

The Midnight Express 43 footer topped at 82 knots and they weigh about 7,500 kg.

At cruise I think I calculated they would consume about NZD$1,800 an hour.

Gee, thanks for the info! 

We can debate this more later. I just got to work and it’s looking like it’ll be a busy day. Funny thing, it says Mercury Racing in great big letters on the side of the building I just walked in to. :D

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33 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Gee, thanks for the info! 

We can debate this more later. I just got to work and it’s looking like it’ll be a busy day. Funny thing, it says Mercury Racing in great big letters on the side of the building I just walked in to. :D

I think that is the politest way I have ever seen on here of saying "stop talking out of your arse*". Well done

* ass for our american cousins

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10 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I think that is the politest way I have ever seen on here of saying "stop talking out of your arse*". Well done

* ass for our american cousins

I was just having fun, and definitely not trying to be rude. 
 

Besides, I cheated. I was curious yesterday, so I looked up what ratio gearcase they went with. 

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16 minutes ago, Sailor Y said:

Enertia ECO XP's? Tube looks right although the blades look a little short?

I’ve got no idea. It’s been years since I’ve done any work with propellers, so they pretty much all look the same to me!

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Win or lose, TNZ may need a new sponsor next time

 

"The Dubai-based Emirates airline says it has suffered a $3.4bn (£2.6bn) loss on account of the coronavirus pandemic - it's first recorded sixth-month loss in more than 30 years.

At one point, the airline was forced to suspend its operations as the virus brought world travel to a standstill.

Over the half-year to September, Emirates carried 95% fewer passengers than it did over the same period last year"

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5 hours ago, Monkey said:

Gee, thanks for the info! 

We can debate this more later. I just got to work and it’s looking like it’ll be a busy day. Funny thing, it says Mercury Racing in great big letters on the side of the building I just walked in to. :D

If you work for the company why didn't you declare that instead of posting a deliberately speculative post?  Who’s talking out of their arse in that case?

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4 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

calm down deer..xx

Well I was just posting some information that I gleaned from the internet because I was interested in those four outboard beasts.  Beasts they are when compared to my 115 4-stroke Yamaha.

Then the Enigma2 chips in and follows up with is negativity and a negative post about Emirates.  Posts the headline loss but of course overlooks the fundamentals.  In any event I don't see any syndicate sponsored by Pfizer so equally you could say all the syndicates will be wondering where their free lunch comes after this cup.

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Win or lose, TNZ may need a new sponsor next time

 

"The Dubai-based Emirates airline says it has suffered a $3.4bn (£2.6bn) loss on account of the coronavirus pandemic - it's first recorded sixth-month loss in more than 30 years.

At one point, the airline was forced to suspend its operations as the virus brought world travel to a standstill.

Over the half-year to September, Emirates carried 95% fewer passengers than it did over the same period last year"

That's after 32 years of profit.  The 2019-20 profit was US$456 million on revenue of US$28.3 billion.

Their financial position looks better than many airlines to recover when normalcy returns - capital assets of US$51 billion.

Compare Emirates to Airbus (key sponsor NYYC) - EBIT -US$1.5 billion Net Loss of -US$1.9 billion.  39% drop in revenues.

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

If you work for the company why didn't you declare that instead of posting a deliberately speculative post?  Who’s talking out of their arse in that case?

I’ve mentioned it plenty of times, including in this very thread. 

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52 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I’ve mentioned it plenty of times, including in this very thread. 

All good.  But if you knew the answer......  You probably already knew if they had taken the water piercing options and the props to go with them.

The only source of information I had was to google it.  Based on what you have posted the figures that I have seen online are probably for water piercing options.  Although the Formula 430 figures I would have thought wouldn't have been.

Anyway the research was fun and the technology involved is incredible and extremely fascinating.

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Well I was just posting some information that I gleaned from the internet because I was interested in those four outboard beasts.  Beasts they are when compared to my 115 4-stroke Yamaha.

Then the Enigma2 chips in and follows up with is negativity and a negative post about Emirates.  Posts the headline loss but of course overlooks the fundamentals.  In any event I don't see any syndicate sponsored by Pfizer so equally you could say all the syndicates will be wondering where their free lunch comes after this cup.

I was referring to you having a tizz about Monkey..